Talk:Dnepropetrovsk maniacs

Victims had their shoes removed?

A portion of this article [1] states that victims had their shoes taken off and placed next to their bodies, now if you look at the image gallery above that I posted a few days earlier and look at the picture of the dead male victim, you can see a shoe next to him, unless that statement was based on that one particular victim this is quite a strange unfolding. --TardisShell (talk) 18:32, 18 July 2009 (UTC)

This is interesting. The photo of the victim at [2] does show a shoe placed beside him. From the text, which is Затем снимали с убитого обувь и ставили ее около мертвеца in Russian, I was unclear about how many victims to which this applied. Serial killers often have trademarks that the police know about, and are reluctant to reveal to the media in case of confessions by cranks. The Yatzenko video shows Suprunyuck and Sayenko dashing off to their Daewoo Lanos car at the end, apparently afraid of being disturbed. His shoes are not removed. The article also implies that the killings took place at night, which was true of the early killings in the spree, but the Yatzenko murder and some others took place in daylight. This could be added to the article, but ideally some further confirmation of how many victims had their shoes removed would be needed.--♦IanMacM♦ ^{(talk to me)} 19:44, 18 July 2009 (UTC)

Suprunyuck and rape allegation

This news story from Segodnya is interesting. It says that in 2002 there was an incident involving Igor Suprunyuck at his school, which was described officially as bullying, but people at the school said that it was a rape. The incident led to Suprunyuck being moved to another school. Local residents said that if this incident had been handed over to the police, the 2007 killings would have been prevented. No charges were brought, and Suprunyuck's father was accused of using his influence to get the matter dropped.

There are some WP:BLP issues here, and Igor Suprunyuck would have been around fourteen at the time, which seems young for a rape allegation. Nevertheless, the incident shows that Suprunyuck's behaviour was causing concern long before the 2007 wave of killings. Here is a new picture showing Igor Suprunyuck in court, with his father Vladimir and Igor Sayenko on the right.--♦IanMacM♦ ^{(talk to me)} 19:22, 24 July 2009 (UTC)

Another strange case

Just found this recent news item [3], it contains images of a girl posing with dead animals (The images in question are gruesome), the article also mentions the murders in Dneproeptrovsk, I'm somewhat confused as to if these cases are related or not.

--TardisShell (talk) 11:02, 2 August 2009 (UTC)

Saw this on Google News earlier this week, but decided not to mention it. The images are disturbing, and are not directly related to this case. They apparently show a female medical student posing with a dog that had been dissected as part of an experiment on a veterinary course at college. The photos were posted on a social networking site, and caused a row which has picked up a lot of coverage in the Russian language media. Incidentally, it is hard to imagine British or American news websites showing photos like this.--♦IanMacM♦ ^{(talk to me)} 11:13, 2 August 2009 (UTC)

Thanks for clearing that up, the way the article mentions the Dnepropetrovsk Maniacs put me under the impression that she had killed the animals herself.

Yes, I find it ironic how the article shows the same images that were posted on her social networking page, considering the controversy that it caused which the article is mainly about. Indeed I don't think any western media outlet would get away with showing images of that nature, just like the courtroom video which shows images taken by the suspects that were shown on Ukrainian TV, I can't picture BBC News showing images of the culprits flipping off the corpse of one of their victims (Assuming that was one of the victims that Suprunyuk was flipping off). --TardisShell (talk) 11:28, 2 August 2009 (UTC)

The dog was apparently a road accident victim and was dead by the time it was dissected. However, the rat was killed for the photos, leading to a row. If my translation of this article (content caution) is OK, the female in the photo is 19 year old Anna Dyachuk. The case prompted comparison with the Dnepropetrovsk Maniacs due to the cavalier attitude of the participants in the photographs. It seems that Dyachuk was asked to leave the veterinary course after these photos were published. Ms Dyachuk was a student at this university in Kiev (no graphic content, just a description of the university, in English).--♦IanMacM♦ ^{(talk to me)} 11:41, 2 August 2009 (UTC)

I don't like this article

I think it gives Ukraine a bad reputation, I am not from ukraine but I think it's a bad name for ukrainians, it makes their country look violent and unprotected. --90.207.85.113 (talk) 14:48, 11 August 2009 (UTC)

Sorry, can't agree here. Following this logic, the Manson murders would make the USA look bad, or the Moors murders would make the UK look bad. The article has gone to great lengths to stick to the facts as they were reported in mainstream media sources, and is not intended to make Ukraine look bad.--♦IanMacM♦ ^{(talk to me)} 16:18, 11 August 2009 (UTC)

Indeed, this is not a holiday brochure. This article covers grim events that happen to have occured in Ukraine and in no way do these murderers or any other murderers in Ukraine represent the entire nation as a whole. As stated above, the USA & UK are known for having a much higher death rate mainly related to gun crime or knife crime etc. Unfortunately there are some rather ignorant people who will come across this article and assume that Ukraine is a horrible place, I visted Lviv and other parts of western Ukraine in August last year and I can very well say that from what I saw it was much more pleasant than certain parts of the UK.

--TardisShell (talk) 19:00, 11 August 2009 (UTC)

Article update and appeal court hearing

The part about the appeal was removed, because the wording had become misleading. What the source said was (in Ukrainian): "23 червня Верховний Суд розглядатиме касаційне оскарження." (A cassation appeal will be heard in the Supreme Court on 23 June). That was back in June and nothing has been heard since. It is unclear if the hearing took place, or was delayed, or what the outcome was, so it has been removed for the time being.

One news article that did mention the case was here on 29 August. On 27 August a seven months pregnant woman was stabbed to death in Kotovka, leading to rumours that the Maniacs were on the loose again.--♦IanMacM♦ ^{(talk to me)} 17:05, 30 August 2009 (UTC)

It's Dnipropetrovsk maniacs

Cause this city is called Dnipropetrovsk. Ogomemnon (talk) 20:00, 30 August 2009 (UTC)

This has been discussed before. The article uses the most common spelling found in the English language coverage per WP:COMMONNAME.--♦IanMacM♦ ^{(talk to me)} 20:09, 30 August 2009 (UTC)

Illogic use of bureaucracy, if we should use WP:COMMONNAME the city name in this article should be Dnipropetrovsk (the most common spelling found in the English language coverage of the city) and the name of the criminals Dnepropetrovsk maniacs (the most common spelling found in the English language coverage of the crime). — Mariah-Yulia • Talk to me! 18:41, 20 October 2009 (UTC)

It's not ideal to have the article about the city spelled Dni and the article about the crime spelled Dne. However, this is the way things worked out, as a Google search shows that the Dne spelling is the standard one for the crime. Incidentally, Google Translate uses the Dne spelling.--♦IanMacM♦ ^{(talk to me)} 19:05, 20 October 2009 (UTC)

one of my edits keeps getting deleted

I wrote 'RIP Sergei Yatzenko 1959 - 2007' in the article and it keeps gettign removed, why? I think it is disrespectful not to. --90.207.182.19 (talk) 16:04, 8 September 2009 (UTC)

Because this is an encyclopedia, and articles should be factual and from a neutral point of view. Writing a statement of personal feelings, i.e. expressing your greif and respect for a person, is not what an encyclopedia is for. ~~ Dr Dec (Talk) ~~ 16:11, 8 September 2009 (UTC)

Americanisms

Fifth grades and Eighth grades I believe to be Americanisms. Most people from other countries will not know what these phrases equate to in terms of child age. Can we not just state their ages so it's something we will all understand?

Latest news on the appeal

At last, some news on the appeal, pending since June, in this article from 30 September. The Supreme Court of Ukraine has referred the case back to the Dnepropetrovsk regional court of appeal. The article also mentions that one of the videos was leaked to the Internet (Один из видеороликов попал в интернет) and that the court described the motive as "unhealthy self-assertion" ( «болезненное самоутверждение», still wondering how best to translate this into English).--♦IanMacM♦ ^{(talk to me)} 17:51, 30 September 2009 (UTC)

It will be interesting to see what happens when the appeal is heard on 5 October. The parents of Suprunyuck and Sayenko were unhappy with some aspects of the police investigation, particularly the way that the interrogations and forensic evidence were handled. What they have not said in any of the current newspaper articles is that all of the photos and videos were faked. This was arguably the key aspect of the case, and unless Judge Ivan Senchenko's ruling that the videos and photos were genuine was overturned, it is hard to see an acquittal.--♦IanMacM♦ ^{(talk to me)} 17:15, 2 October 2009 (UTC)

There is a YouTube video from the Novi Most press conference (only 10 seconds long) in which Igor Sayenko protests his son's innocence, while sitting next to Vladimir Suprunyuck. It can be watched here. Not really enough new information to put this in the article.

In this Novi Most article, Igor Sayenko says at the October press conference that there was a cover up because the nephew of Nadezhda Deeva was involved. Nadezhda Deeva is the former governor of the Dnepropetrovsk region, and there is a profile of her here [4]. This runs into some WP:BLP issues, and it may be best to see what the court rules at the appeal.--♦IanMacM♦ ^{(talk to me)} 17:17, 3 October 2009 (UTC)

I noticed in the related articles on the Novi Most site that the killers are referred to as the "Dnepropetrovsk Hammers". Is this the epithet they are known by in Ukraine, or is it just a cock-up in the Google translation? PCLM (talk) 08:37, 7 October 2009 (UTC)

Caitlin Moran's Times article

On 12 January 2009, Caitlin Moran wrote an article in The Times about her reaction to the Yatzenko video. It was here, but is now producing a 404 error and has probably been removed/expired from the site. This is a nuisance, as it is one of the few substantial appearances of the case in the English language media. However, an archive copy can be found here.--♦IanMacM♦ ^{(talk to me)} 18:12, 6 October 2009 (UTC)

The article appears to be back online now. PCLM (talk) 08:38, 7 October 2009 (UTC)

It is definitely giving a 404 error for me, and has for some time. The only other possibility is that it is available in some countries only.--♦IanMacM♦ ^{(talk to me)} 09:12, 7 October 2009 (UTC)

Would some sort of ban on the page in other countries produce a 404 error, though? I would have thought there'd be some other error, or that the page just wouldn't load. I checked it again just now and it worked, and then I tried it through a proxy server which cloaks my IP address with an American one and it worked again. Not sure if that proves anything haha. Have you tried accessing it from a different browser/PC/location? Maybe a library or an internet café, or a friend's computer? It's a strange problem, I don't think I've encountered it before (not 404s, but two people accessing the same page and one getting through while the other gets a 404, using the exact same URL at more or less the same time). PCLM (talk) 11:25, 17 October 2009 (UTC)

The page is still definitely a 404 at my location, even after using a proxy. It would be wrong to remove the link as a citation if other people can still access it, but it is hard to speculate on why it shows up for some people and not others. However, there are ways round this type of problem, so I submitted the page to WebCite and it is now available here as well. I'll also test the page on some other computers when available.--♦IanMacM♦ ^{(talk to me)} 14:02, 17 October 2009 (UTC)

Do you by any chance use Opera? I also get frequent 404s from Timesonline using Opera but it seems to work OK in Firefox. Peculiar one. Blorg (talk) 20:49, 17 November 2009 (UTC)

The problem is possibly related to the Opera browser. A bigger worry is that The Times has talked about going to subscription only for its online content [5], which is one reason why the Caitlin Moran article was uploaded to WebCite.--♦IanMacM♦ ^{(talk to me)} 15:24, 18 November 2009 (UTC)

Igor Sayenko image

I don't see why the picture of Igor Sayenko is blurred when this page has links to news articles and video reports where his face can clearly be seen. Also any more images that relate to the case would also be an impovement to this article. Thanks.

--TardisShell (talk) 16:55, 7 October 2009 (UTC)

This was added a long time back and it is a bit odd. However, I am loathe to add any new images to the article as there are enough images requiring fair use rationales already, and it is best not to set off arguments about the image tagging. It would have to be a non-free image.--♦IanMacM♦ ^{(talk to me)} 17:15, 7 October 2009 (UTC)

Questions About Sergei Yatzenko's Murder Video

I've been reading some of the translated articles relating to Yatzenko's murder, and there are details about the murder which I haven't read in the main Wikipedia article or elsewhere, and which don't appear to correspond with the events captured in the video. For instance, the following article discusses a knife being used to cut off one of his ears and to cut his throat (and even his belly):

http://www.facts.kiev.ua/archive/2009-02-27/94631/index.html

It also mentions that the camera clearly captures "Saenko", but the video in fact shows Suprunyuck, with Sayenko/Saenko always behind the camera.

Is this description of the same man/murder? Are the details just muddled somewhat (such as confusing a knife with a screwdriver), or have we misidentified Yatzenko as the victim in this clip? I think the cutting off of an ear is the main question here; the others can probably be dismissed as confusion about the details of a grainy, low-quality video, but stating that an ear is cut off is a pretty specific thing and don't recall anyone else interpreting the facial torture in that way. Is it possible that the video on the internet has had its original length truncated? That would explain a lot. The misidentification of Sayenko remains puzzling, though, unless there is indeed a longer version which shows him. At the end of the clip the killers return to the body for a "photo-shoot", so it's possible that these events took place at that stage. PCLM (talk) 12:57, 22 October 2009 (UTC)

It is possible that there has been some confusion over the videos. Segodnya says that on 29 October 2008, the court was shown the photo and video material.[6] It says that 300 photographs and videos were shown to the court: "На заседании в среду судьям представили около 300 кошмарных фотографий и видеозаписи измывательств над жертвами, которые изъяли у парней." It does not say how many videos, and this is where the confusion may have arisen. The kitten torture video is one, and the Blik article at [7] describes the Yatzenko video, which is also in the Wikipedia article. In the Yatzenko video, Sayenko is never seen, and his ear is not cut off. Also, the only weapons seen in the video are a hammer and screwdriver. This means that the Wikipedia article is correct about the contents of the Yatzenko video, although it is possible that a) the court was shown other videos not mentioned, b) the Yatzenko video has been edited (unlikely, as the two attackers run back to the car at the end, showing that this was the end of the attack) or c) the newspapers themselves have become confused. The Fakti i Kommentari article [8] is in broad agreement, and says that three videos were shown to the court. If this is the case, we do not know what the third one contained, as only the contents of the kitten and Yatzenko videos are known in detail.--♦IanMacM♦ ^{(talk to me)} 15:17, 22 October 2009 (UTC)

The end of the clip isn't necessarily the end of the attack, given that we know the killers returned to the body immediately after the clip ends. The last words spoken by Suprunyuck in the video are something to the effect of "let's get a picture", and the following photograph proves that they did just that:

WARNING: This image contains graphic violence; it shows the corpse of Yatzenko with the killer crouching next to him, posing for the photograph.

I uploaded the pic to two places in case the image is removed:

Source 1: http://i37.tinypic.com/29waa7a.jpg

Source 2: http://img210.imageshack.us/img210/6823/suprunyuckposingwithvic.jpg

Knowing that the killers went back to the body of Yatzenko it's not unlikely that they could have inflicted further damage to him, namely removing an ear and slashing his throat/stomach with a knife (if that even happened at all - I'm just illustrating the fact that they had an opportunity to do so outside of the time-frame of the video clip). The use of a knife is actually mentioned by the killers during the attack, so they had one with them and were at least willing to use it (consult the transcript for more info). It's also not entirely clear that the victim is indeed dead by the time they leave him during the video, so perhaps on returning for a picture they decided to finish the job with a knife. Again, this is just speculation by way of showing that the ear removal and other damage mentioned in the Kiev article could well have occurred post-video.

In case there is any doubt about when the photograph was taken, you can clearly see that Yatzenko's face and stomach have been damaged severely, and given that we see his face "unharmed" from the beginning of the clip and that there are no pauses for photographs during the attack, the photo must have been taken after, which is supported by Suprunyuck's comment at the end of the video.

I had read about the fact that there were at least 2 videos, one of which shows the torture of the cat with BB guns, which is why I was confused about the Yatzenko clip and the description of it in the Kiev article - I assumed that there was either another clip with more or less the same "killer M.O." which wouldn't be unusual for serial killers, or that the clip we know about here was edited. On a side note, I think the lack of footage of the rest of the murders goes some way towards debunking the claim that the killers were motivated by a desire to reap rewards for snuff movies! PCLM (talk) 18:45, 22 October 2009 (UTC)

An additional thought: the killers are known to have removed the foetus from a pregnant woman's womb [presumably] with a knife, so there is evidence to support that knives were used in conjunction with objects designed to inflict blunt force trauma. They were "tooled up" in this way for at least two of the murders, namely Yatzenko's (as evidenced by the conversation between the killers and its transcript) and the pregnant woman's. PCLM (talk) 20:15, 22 October 2009 (UTC)

Thanks, there are several points that need to be cleared up here:

• Where does this image come from? Does it come from a web page with text describing it, because it does not appear to be from any of the current citations in the article.
• There seems little doubt that it is genuine, as it closely matches the contents of the Yatzenko video, which is very grainy and blurred due to being shot on a mobile phone. This image is of much better quality, and may (WP:OR) be a still image taken by the same mobile phone camera that took the video.
• In the bottom right hand corner of the picture there is some red text which is very small. It says "20 blurred-07 19:16". According to the other sources, the murder of Sergei Yatzenko was on 12 July 2007. Was this stamp added by the camera, or was it added afterwards?

Without more detail, it is hard to know what to make of this photo.--♦IanMacM♦ ^{(talk to me)} 21:08, 22 October 2009 (UTC)

I got the image from a gore forum (one of those pinnacles of research!). Here is the post in question, although you need to be logged in to access it:

http://www.ogrishforum.com/showpost.php?p=3740511&postcount=1133 [Shows images of graphic violence when logged in]

I don't know where they got it from, or if the timestamp was added after the fact, and subsequent posts in the thread don't ask for more information. As I understand it 4 days passed before Yatzenko's body was found, so the possible time-frame in which the photograph could have been taken must be a maximum of 3 or 4 days, which still leaves a discrepancy between the timestamp on the image and the date of the event. I see no reason to doubt the authenticity of the image (no more than I can doubt the authenticity of the video) and as such I think it shows conclusively that the end of the video clip is not the end of the killers' time with Sergei. PCLM (talk) 22:23, 22 October 2009 (UTC)

Is there any usable text with the photo? Unfortunately I can't log in to the page at the moment. The photo seems to have been taken at the same time as the attack, because a) Suprunyuck is wearing the same clothes as he is in the video and b) Yatzenko appears as he does in the video, with no signs of decomposition due to the heat when his body was found four days later. Apart from the gore content, this falls short of being a reliable source, although there is little doubt that the photo is genuine.--♦IanMacM♦ ^{(talk to me)} 23:39, 22 October 2009 (UTC)

Good news, I found the original source of the image. Well, I didn't, but I went a few posts up from where I found it in the gore thread and someone had posted a link. Not sure how I didn't see it before now. Anyway, here it is:

WARNING: Contains an image of Suprunyuck posing with the mutilated corpse of Yatzenko, and also images of animal torture.

http://www.blik.ua/content/view/12906/39/

Google Translated Version: [9]

There's an interesting image of Sayenko's father/lawyer closing his eyes in horror as the footage is played in court.

The other images in this article shot by the killers don't have timestamps, which indicates one of three things (as far as I can tell). First, the timestamp option could be switched on or off and they had it on for the photo with Sergei, and they could very well have punched in the wrong date or were using the untweaked factory-set date that came with the phone/camera, which is wrong a lot of the time depending on the model/brand. Second, they were using more than one phone/camera. Third, the images are cropped and as such the timestamp section isn't visible. I'm sure the defence team would opt for a fourth alternative - that the discrepancy between the timestamps and dates of the murders are further proof of a cover-up or frame-up, and the defendants are actually quoted saying as much in the photo caption.

The article - in its translated state - is a little confusing, as one would imagine. There is a paragraph discussing a video which was playing in court, and it showed "The next movie recreated the murder scene of men. He is beaten with a hammer on the head, cutting the throat and cut open his stomach. Video is accompanied by the cheerful cries of: 'to strive for it,' Great kick." This indicates to me that there is at least one other murder video, or that the video we have seen is edited/truncated. I don't think it's a case of editing, because the photo of Suprunyuck posing with Sergei doesn't show that his stomach or throat is slashed, so if it is indeed discussing the Yatzenko murder then they must have started filming again after the photograph was taken, at which point a knife was used. Do we know the details about any of the other murders of older men? Specifically related to a knife being used in the ways described by the article? If there is another victim whose demise fits in with the description there is clearly another video, and if not Yatzenko's murder video is longer or in two halves. PCLM (talk) 12:24, 23 October 2009 (UTC)

Thanks for the help on this. It is no surprise that the material came from the Ukrainian tabloid Blik, because this was the only Ukrainian media source that discussed the photo and video material openly, eg in this article which also contains disturbing content. This also helps to explain why Judge Ivan Senchenko said at the trial "Столь явная ложь вывела из равновесия даже невозмутимого судью Ивана Сенченко. "Вы думаете, вас слепые судят? - не выдержал он. - Так мы на вас уже насмотрелись и анфас, и в профиль... " [10] "This blatant lie disturbed even the imperturbable Judge Ivan Senchenko. 'Do you think that you are blind? This is unsustainable. We have already seen enough of you in full face and in profile...'"

Only the contents of the Yatzenko and kitten videos are known, although other material may have been shown to the court. Yatzenko's throat is not cut in the infamous Internet video, although other video material depicting events of this kind may exist. Some puzzles remain here, but the description of the Yatzenko video in the article remains accurate.--♦IanMacM♦ ^{(talk to me)} 14:04, 23 October 2009 (UTC)

I didn't realise that Blik was considered a tabloid, and as such I think it's reasonable to consider the possibility that they simply screwed up the information, or accidentally ended up melding information from different murders together. For instance, it wouldn't be surprising to me if someone who saw the video in court, in shock and subjected to grainy video footage, misidentified the screwdriver as a knife and the throat cutting as the facial torture (and the stomach stabbing as "slashing the stomach"). Perhaps the killers did indeed use a knife on other victims (we know they must have done so with the pregnant victim) and the accounts of these murders worked in some way to "muddy" the account of the Yatzenko video. This is pure speculation again, but it's difficult to reconcile the Blik account with the video we've seen without doing so, at least at this stage.

The Wikipedia article's description of the murder video is spot-on, and this has never been contested, but I think we are left with a huge question mark regarding what happened after it. The photo of Suprunyuck posing with Yatzenko's body opens the door to any number of possibilities, for the simple reason that we know they returned to the body after the video ended. I really wish the Western media would cover this story; I'm sure if they did we might have an easier time piecing together this information, although your work and the work of others on this article has been stellar! PCLM (talk) 14:22, 23 October 2009 (UTC)

At around the six minute mark in the Yatzenko video, a train horn is heard, and an approaching train drowns out all the other sounds for a few moments. This seems to disturb the attackers in the woods, and they run back to their car parked by the roadside (a Daewoo Lanos as described in the media reports). It is possible that a few moments later, Suprunyuck and Sayenko went back into the woods next to the road to take this photo (disturbing content). This would fit in with Suprunyuck's known pattern of wanting "trophy pictures" of things that he had done. Without a more detailed account of how the evidence was presented in court on 29 October 2008, some of this is going to remain as original research. It is a pity that the English language media has not covered the case, although there was a mention here when Ukraine and England played a World Cup qualifier in Dnepropetrovsk a few weeks back.--♦IanMacM♦ ^{(talk to me)} 15:06, 23 October 2009 (UTC)

I didn't know about that Daily Mail article, thanks for that. I think it's a little unfortunate that the murders are only mentioned in passing in an article about football hooliganism! My mother reads a lot of those murder detective magazines, which cover real murder trials and stories, and I've been keeping my eye out for a mention of the Dnepropetrovsk Maniacs. Sensationalist rags like these will surely jump at the chance to cover a story like this, but no luck so far. That said, I'm not sure how much more information I'm expecting them to provide. PCLM (talk) 15:34, 23 October 2009 (UTC)

Small Question About Guns and Blonde "Co-Conspirators"

In the archive of this talk page there is mention of the alleged co-conspirator, Danila or Dmitriy Kozlov, and how he allegedly sold Suprunyuck a gun. Then there are photos of Suprunyuck and Sayenko posing for photographs with guns (presumably taking turns with the same one). Could these things be related? I know that the gun in the photographs is thought to be a BB gun, but there isn't much information about the one sold to Suprunyuck by Kozlov - could that one be a BB gun? I can't imagine it getting a mention if it was just a BB gun, and if it was a genuine gun is it possible that this is the one seen in the photographs? The identification of it as being a BB gun doesn't seem concrete from what I've read. PCLM (talk) 17:34, 23 October 2009 (UTC)

The Kozlov angle is another of the puzzles in the case. It is mentioned in this article but does not figure heavily elsewhere. The gun photos shown at the trial [11][12] are interesting because Suprunyuck and Sayenko appear to be considerably younger in them. It is unclear whether they ever owned a "real" gun as opposed to a BB gun, and none of the media reports describe the victims as being shot. The Kozlov angle was used by the defence to support the conspiracy version of events, but there is not much more to say than what is already known.--♦IanMacM♦ ^{(talk to me)} 19:38, 23 October 2009 (UTC)

It's certainly interesting. Just to be clear, I wasn't implying that a gun was ever used in the attacks, but I thought that if the story about the alleged co-conspirator selling a gun to one of the accused in some way gives the conspiracy slant more weight then these photographs perhaps corroborate that claim. But as you say, there's not much more that can be learned from the scant information at hand. PCLM (talk) 20:13, 23 October 2009 (UTC)

This is what the article at [13] says about the guns: "О том, что парни "созрели" для самых бесчеловечных преступлений, свидетельствовали и кадры видеосъемки, показанные в одном из последних судебных заседаний. Пытки, которым подвергся в гараже крошечный белый котенок, друзья снимали в мельчайших подробностях: как сколачивали из двух брусков крест, прибивали жалобно мяукающее существо за лапки гвоздями, расстреливали его из двух пистолетов, а чтобы не орал, залили рот монтажной пеной и клеем. Смотреть на это было просто невыносимо. Многие присутствующие вышли из зала, а отец Игоря, бывший летчик, сидел с глазами, полными слез. Но парни на экране хохотали и весело матерились, комментируя мучения своей жертвы."

It is not clear from this what type the guns were. Also, it appears to say that the kitten was silenced with foam and glue in its mouth rather than duct tape as the article currently says. Any comments on the translation appreciated here.--♦IanMacM♦ ^{(talk to me)} 18:40, 29 October 2009 (UTC)

Where was the duct tape mentioned first? It seems like there are some major differences between various news articles about what is contained in the videos, and this issue about what was used to silence the cat is a good example of that. The article from which you got the glue and foam information also describes a video in which the pair of killers attack a man on a bicycle with metal pipes, a hammer, a screwdriver and a knife, and that there was someone else's torso visible or reflected on the car, indicating that there was perhaps a third killer/accomplice. It also mentions a mobile phone video showing a woman being kicked (which seems to fit in with the quote I mentioned in the above section, "Great kick!"). There are a lot of loose ends here, namely how many videos are there and is the one we've seen truncated/edited? It doesn't look like we'll find out any time soon. PCLM (talk) 20:12, 30 October 2009 (UTC)

The only detailed citation that I could find for the kitten torture video was the one given above, [14] and this is why there were concerns over whether the duct tape reference was accurate. Some discrepancies between the news reports are inevitable (eg the Daewoo Lanos has been described as dark blue or green) but I was tempted to change the duct tape phrase because it does not seem to be sourced elsewhere. Likewise, the Russian passage above does not specify BB guns, only pistols. It does seem likely that there were air pistols rather than real guns, but the translation could be better here. The other points are puzzles, and as you point out, it would help if the information could be cross referenced to other articles.--♦IanMacM♦ ^{(talk to me)} 20:39, 30 October 2009 (UTC)

Is this legal?

I was searching for this wikiarticle but I accidently clicked on Encyclopedia Dramatica article titled "3guys1hammer". I'm surprised that the site displays portions of the video in form of GIF animations without any warning. They also put a stopmotion pics edited in a way that sick people find humouristic. If anyone is a registered user please edit it out of the article. It's not OK to put such content without any warning.78.131.137.50 (talk) 02:01, 24 November 2009 (UTC)

Wikipedia has no control over Encyclopedia Dramatica, which treats this case with its customary lack of taste. As for the legality, I am not a lawyer, but websites hosting shock content are often based in the United States in order to receive First Amendment protection that they might not get elsewhere. 3guys1Hammer has become one of the main ways for people to hear about this case, and people should be advised that the article on ED contains clips from the Yatzenko video.--♦IanMacM♦ ^{(talk to me)} 17:15, 24 November 2009 (UTC)

It is highly unlikely for Encyclopedia Dramatica to include warnings for any of their articles, given that most users of the site tend to consist of sick basement dwellers or immature pre-teens, as Ianmacm has stated above; whatever goes on at ED is by no means associated with Wikipedia. --TardisShell (talk) 19:08, 25 November 2009 (UTC)

Thank You guys for replies. There is a wikiarticle on Encyclopedia Dramatica which describes the site merely as "satirical" :|so I started a thread on discussion panel where I'd like You to express Your opinions. I've already got 4(-1 vandalism) responses critical of my propostion to include information about gore content.78.131.137.50 (talk) 20:09, 25 November 2009 (UTC)

Appeal and life sentences

Not being an expert on Ukrainian law, it is unclear how life sentences work in that country. None of the reports have the court specifying a minimum time in prison, which would happen in some countries. It is also unclear if the courts specified life without the possibility of parole, which would be unusual for defendants who were nineteen years old at the time of the crimes. It would be useful for the article to have some more detail here.--♦IanMacM♦ ^{(talk to me)} 17:41, 25 November 2009 (UTC)