Talk:English Defence League

You don't make sense

Ggoere, You say to did'nt mention Dudley in the main page because it was much smaller protest. Well here is the proof what happened in Dudley deserves to be mentioned in the main page. It was'nt a smaller protest. http://www.birminghammail.net/news/black-country/black-country-news/2010/04/03/edl-dudley-march-protesters-fight-among-themselves-as-2-000-descend-on-town-97319-26170561/. Do you notice it says 2000 EDL attended the demonstration at Dudley.

You don't mention usernames in titles. Ggoere (talk) 10:28, 23 May 2010 (UTC)

Anyway, my mistake! But it still doesn't get its own article. Ggoere (talk) 10:30, 23 May 2010 (UTC)

I did'nt want its own article, I just wanted it to be mentioned in "Activities". Anyway it is now. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 86.175.67.133 (talk) 15:28, 29 May 2010 (UTC)

edl website

It would seem according to the guardian [[1]] that there may be more then one EDL website.Slatersteven (talk) 17:51, 8 December 2009 (UTC)

See my comments at the BNP article. This should be deleted --Snowded ^TALK 22:30, 8 December 2009 (UTC)

Also see mine. Its sourced, and its from an RS. Moreover its quite clear from sources that there has been some kiind of falling out. Ther is a statment that the EDL have been (or that there was an attempt) Hijacked by BNP supporters. Moreover the EDL (and indead searchlight) have said that Mr Renton has no longer any offical connection with the EDL. Also hopenothate states tghat the website in quesation was taken down. Is there any evidacne that the curretn website has any connection to Mr Renton?Slatersteven (talk) 22:49, 8 December 2009 (UTC)

Confused, mess and no reliable sources, time to delete --Snowded ^TALK 22:55, 8 December 2009 (UTC)

What are you talking about, Snowded? This is adaequately sourced. It is by its nature confused, but that doesn't make it unreportable. --FormerIP (talk) 00:53, 9 December 2009 (UTC)

Agree with FormerIP. If a national newspaper isn't a RS what is?!  Francium12  02:16, 9 December 2009 (UTC)

Its trivia, but lets have the discussion in one place, over to BNP --Snowded ^TALK 05:41, 9 December 2009 (UTC)

What is trivia, the link to the BNP or the fact that Mr Renton has been accused of trying to Hijack the EDL. Moreover the BNP seem to be claiming that the EDL is some kind of zionist consproacy to undermine them (I kid you not)[[2]].Slatersteven (talk) 14:36, 9 December 2009 (UTC)

"A Zionist false-flag operation". Wow, that's definitely notable. --FormerIP (talk) 14:49, 9 December 2009 (UTC)

See BNP talk page.Slatersteven (talk) 14:55, 9 December 2009 (UTC)

A zionist flase-falg operation claim is notable, no argument on that. A squabble over a web site, no. --Snowded ^TALK 13:31, 10 December 2009 (UTC)

Given that this "A squabble over a web site" is the main evidance provided that there are links between the two groups it seems to me far from trivial. Its at the heart of the dispute between theee two groups.Slatersteven (talk) 13:43, 10 December 2009 (UTC)

Then show me some more material on the subject, we have hardly anything that shows it was ever a real issue (beyond a mix up in the formation period), or much on any dispute. If its relevant, then it needs something more than the current, if the current is all there is then its trivial. --Snowded ^TALK 13:49, 10 December 2009 (UTC)

Well we have this [[3]] it does not mention the website but does reference the attempts by the EDL to distance themselves from accusations of links to the BNP. Then the Guardian article [[4]] Talks about two websites. [[5]] says that it was taken down to conceal the link We have the time article [[6]] Which also reference two sites, and that one was taken down. Almost all of these reference the attempted Hijacking. So it is clear that the EDL (or an, depending on source) website was set up by a BNP member and when this was revealed it was removed. alo that there is a dispute over which website is the 'rea EDL' [[7]]Slatersteven (talk) 14:20, 10 December 2009 (UTC)

BLP violations removed

The BNP are not a reliable source for any claim about a third party per various policies such as WP:V and WP:BLP, and their views are also WP:FRINGE. I will avoid repeating the exact claims here, but the incredibly controversial claims that apply to the founders of the EDL are a massive violation of WP:BLP. As is usual with BLP removals, they do not get added back without consensus here. And before anyone asks, I've seen the thread asking if they are a reliable source and nowhere was it agreed they are a reliable source for the claims they are making about a third party, especially when policy says they are not. 2 lines of K₃₀₃ 12:25, 21 December 2009 (UTC)

This is about an organisation not about one person. Two the BNP are RS for thier views (and this was quite clear that this was only thier accusation, it was fully attributed). Three this was discused on the RS page[[8]], this was about the BNP not EDL but the point remians that they are RS for thier views.Slatersteven (talk) 13:35, 21 December 2009 (UTC)

I do think that material was valid, it was a direct reference to their statements, not a commentary on those statements. --Snowded ^TALK 14:08, 21 December 2009 (UTC)

The EDL are not a living person and the material is reliably sourced in any case. You appear to feel quite strongly, though, so I would suggest posting on WP:BLP/N. --FormerIP (talk) 14:38, 21 December 2009 (UTC)

There are some fundamental misunderstandings of BLP here. BLP applies to organisations when they are founded, run and consist of a membership of living people, especially when the allegations apply to those people. Furthermore if someone believes it is a BLP violation, they are not required to post on BLP/N before removing the information, it is removed without discussion and not added back unless there is consensus that it is not a BLP violation.

It's probably my fault to some extent for not pointing out the exact problems there were, so here goes:

• Questionable sources "should only be used as sources of material on themselves, especially in articles about themselves . . . Questionable sources are generally unsuitable as a basis for citing contentious claims about third parties"
• Red flags, "surprising or apparently important claims not covered by mainstream sources", "claims that are contradicted by the prevailing view within the relevant community" and "Exceptional claims in Wikipedia require high-quality sources". Does a single reliable source actually agree with the BNP's view? Not that I can see, so in addition to being unreliably sourced it's also an extreme minority fringe view.
• Reliable sources for BLPs says "Material available solely in questionable sources or sources of dubious value should not be used anywhere in the article".
• Self-published sources for BLPs says "Never use self-published books, zines, websites, forums, blogs or tweets as sources for material about a living person, unless written or published by the subject". Just in case anyone wants to say The Star are reliable, read the section more. "Where a news organization publishes the opinions of a professional but claims no responsibility for the opinions, the writer of the cited piece should be attributed (e.g., "Jane Smith has suggested...")". Neither Nick Griffin or Simon Darby would meet the standard of "professional", as neither are professional political commentators or analysts.

The material is only sourced to the BNP who are an unreliable source for controversial claims about third parties, especially living ones. No reliable source is repeating these claims and giving them any credence, only attributing them to the BNP. These claims fail WP:BLP, WP:V and WP:FRINGE, and should not be added back to the article without clear consensus. If you want to start a new discussion that includes the points I've raised here go right ahead, but I don't need to start a discussion to remove this information and people who persist in adding it back until there is consensus for inclusion can be blocked from editing. 2 lines of K₃₀₃ 11:45, 22 December 2009 (UTC)

No the material was also sourced from the daily star, as such the material was not soley sourced from the BNP. So they were reported (and commented on) by third party sources. Here is another source for it (are these unreliable?)[[9]]. RS does not mean a source has to agree with a view, just report it (or shall we go thru this article (and others) removing any material where a newspaper does not express an opinion as to the faculatiy of the material?).I would point out that the material removed (and the sources used) make no mention of any living person, they talk about the organisation, they do not name any one. Also the Star is not publishing Mr Grffins opinions its reporting on them. Mr Griffin is a profesional politican commenting on an organisation he has been accused of secretly being linked to, as has the party he leads, as such his views on this organisation are not fringe they are very pertinant.Slatersteven (talk) 14:49, 22 December 2009 (UTC)Slatersteven (talk) 14:01, 22 December 2009 (UTC)

No, the Star was not the source of the allegations. Griffin and Darby are the source of the allegations. The Star did not say "The EDL etc etc", the Star said "Nick Griffin says the EDL etc etc" which is not the same. The allegations of extremists being reported in reliable sources does not make their allegations reliable. The Guardian is far more reliable than the Star, and they reported that according to David Icke a number of world leaders and other prominent people are reptilian, child-sacrificing paedophiles. The Guardian is a reliable source, David Icke isn't. Being quoted in a reliable source doesn't make the person being quoted a reliable source.

The BNP's denial of involvement with the EDL is already in the article, there is no need for Griffin's ZOGesque allegations to be included when they violate three policies. 2 lines of K₃₀₃ 14:19, 23 December 2009 (UTC)

The Star was uused as a source for this article, as such its thye source we used. It does not matter where a claim origionates if its reported in RS tyhen they have reported it. The section you removed made it clear that these were Mr Griffins claims. The David Ike artcile does refer to reptilian, child-sacrificing paedophiles (well actauly ""seriously reptilian." All have taken part in Satanic rituals, paedophilia") so we do in fact quote loonies when they are an involved party. When an RS reports something we can use that. This does not breach any of Wiki's rules. It has been reported by an RS (well 2), it is by an involved party, and it was attributed to the person saying it (though this could be re-worded). In addition it puts both the the EDL/BNP relasionhship and Mr Griffins attitudes into perspective. This is not a denile of involvment this is a serious (if very silly) accusation that needs to be mentioned.Slatersteven (talk) 19:06, 23 December 2009 (UTC)

• Explicitly attributed to Griffin it probably does not inherently violate WP:BLP, since people can easily make up their own minds about Griffin's reliability as a source regarding a related organisation that casts his own politics in a bad light. However, we must also guard against WP:UNDUE. The sources are not good quality ones. If this was reported in the mainstream press then it would be easier to defend, but a blog and the Daily Star do not really cut it for me. The removed text is not something I'd want to see reinserted without much better sources for its significance. Guy (Help!) 20:57, 23 December 2009 (UTC)

What do you mean by "mainstream press", Guy? Do you mean to say "highbrow"? I tend to sympathise with this POV, but it is not policy.

The claim of WP:UNDUE does not hold water here, IMO, and your reasoning does not seem to me to be correct. Where something has been published, all else being equal, has no bearing on whether it is fringe etc or not. Something may fail WP:V because of where it has been published, but that is a different matter. In this case, there is no issue as to verifiability.

Nick Griffin is the UK's most prominent anti-muslim politician. God help us, he is actually an elected politician. His opinion about another anti-muslim politcal movement cannot possibly be considered WP:UNDUE. --FormerIP (talk) 02:59, 24 December 2009 (UTC)

I mean press that rises above the level of toilet paper. The Daily Mail might just count, the Grauniad, Telegraph, Independent or Times are acceptable, BBC News is good. A story that's only covered by one tabloid is not, I think, a significant story, and what one bigot thinks about another bunch of bigots is not significant unless it gains significant coverage in publications known for their good judgement of what is and is not significant. I call WP:UNDUE here in the absence of more and better sources. Guy (Help!) 09:15, 24 December 2009 (UTC)

David Icke's comments linked above are widely, widely reported. Are you suggesting I can add Icke's views to Prince Philip's article? Surely the whole point about WP:FRINGE is how accepted a viewpoint is, not how widely reported it is? There's also the "Questionable Sources" part of WP:V, which says they are unacceptable for making claims about third parties. When a particular person is making a claim or allegation, the question is how reliable that person is not how reliable the source reporting the claim is, especially (as in the case of The Star) when they say the person making the claim is "bonkers" and that it's a "loony conspiracy". 2 lines of K₃₀₃ 11:18, 24 December 2009 (UTC)

One Night in Hackney: when you set up a discussion thread it would be helpful if you described the content you are removing. I do not see any problems with quoting the BNP here. We are not treating the BNP as an authority on EDL. Rather we are reporting what BNP says about EDL, viz., that EDL is not associated with BNP and that it is a false-flag operation. We are not implying that these statements are true. The Four Deuces (talk) 11:26, 24 December 2009 (UTC)

Erm, wrong as wrong can be. The whole point of removing BLP violating material is that it is removed from Wikipedia as a whole. Therefore moving it from the article to the talk page defeats the object. Also try reading the source properly, you will find if it had been cited accurately in the first place that the allegations go beyond the EDL. Questionable sources such as the BNP cannot be used for allegations about third parties, it's right there in black and white in WP:V. Does anyone actually hold this viewpoints other than Griffin and Darby and the rest of the BNP? If not, it's a fringe view. 2 lines of K₃₀₃ 11:35, 24 December 2009 (UTC)

Which has been reported in RS, the BNP is not the source (I will ask you again is Stopthehate blog RS or not?). Moreover this page is about the EDL not anyone else, so there is no need or requirment) to include material about any one else. Nor is it a fringe view, minority perhaps, but not fringe. After all he has been accused of links to the EDL, so hi8s views on it are very significant. As I said if his views o9n the EDL are fringe so are his (and his parties) links to it. You can't have it both ways. you can't have his links to the group being notable but his views on it not being notable.Slatersteven (talk) 15:42, 24 December 2009 (UTC)

Not sure about this, but it does mention the quoted material [[10]]. Also Mr Ike had not been linked as a member of the Royal family by any RS. If he had (and this was a commonley accepted acccusation in mainstream RS) then his views on the Royal family would be notable. But he has no links to either the Royal family or the Duke of Edinburgh, as such his views are fringe in that respect. Mr Griffin has beenh linke dby RS the the EDL.Slatersteven (talk) 16:45, 24 December 2009 (UTC) As no one has objected to hte new source I will re-insert the material usinig the new source as well.Slatersteven (talk) 19:19, 6 January 2010 (UTC)

I shall ask again does any one object to this new source?Slatersteven (talk) 13:47, 28 January 2010 (UTC)

BNP links and smearing

This article does not come up to Wikipedias usual high standard. Unfortunately, it would take too long to deal with all the errors thru the proper process. That is a fundamental problem in Wikipedia, that if a bad starting entry gets in, then its practically impossible to correct all of it, so the defective entry will stay. Here's just three in one small section.

Smear 1: "the EDL website was developed by Chris Renton, a British National Party activist." Well I have seen a copy of the official letter from the BNP stating that Chris Renton is no longer a member, so what's that about? And if he was an activist (not just a member), then what verifiable 'activities' can we point to? It reminds me of the quote "Don't try confuse me with facts, my mind is already made up!"

Smear 2: "In September 2009 the BNP officially declared the EDL a proscribed organisation, and made it a disciplinary offence for any BNP member to be involved with the EDL.[16] Searchlight has said that proscription is BNP standard practice when attempting to establish 'deniability'.[7]" Even Stalin did better propaganda than this! If Searchlight has said it, it must be worth quoting, yes?

So lets see, a woman is brutally raped by 4 men who say in their defence that she 'came on to them' and was wearing 'seductive clothing'. In response the woman reminded the court that even neighbours and passers-by heard her screaming "Stop! Leave me alone! Someone help me please! Call the Police!". She confirmed to the court the police report which shows she was wearing low heel shoes and a skirt which came to just below the knee at the time of the attack.

However, Searchlight has said that this type of denial is standard practice when an 'alleged rape victim' is attempting to disprove culpability or complicity in the sexual intercourse which took place. Such is the logic behind Searchlights attempt to smear the 'proscription' action. If the BNP endorse EDL they're guilty. And if they reject EDL they're guilty too! Those intellectual goliaths running Searchlight should really dig out their witch dunking stools and start the inquisition again, to free us all from such heresy!

Smear 3: Finally, as a general point of logic and balance, is it a good idea for Wikipedia to take such a lot of input from an organisation X (Searchlight), which is an avowed enemy of organisation Y (EDL)? I know there is this attempt to quote from 3rd party sources, but, lets at least have the semblance of balance shall we? AA747 (talk) 05:13, 3 January 2010 (UTC)

The question of Searchlight as a reliable source has been discussed elsewhere and its use accepted. You need to pick up on that discussion if you want changes. As it is any article on the far right will contain Searchlight material as that is one of the main research entities in the field. That covers Smear 3. Your smear 2 is a balanced entry, it reports the BNP proscription, but also reports a counter position and in any case it is based on the same anti-Searchlight proposition as your other material. Smear 1 is more interesting. As far as I can see there were various land grabs on EDL from the far right and this appears to have been one. Its notable but the language needs improvement and more citation --Snowded ^TALK 07:33, 3 January 2010 (UTC)

(sorry if this is in the wrong place, this is my first time reply)

Smear 2 - For someone interested in complexity theory, you seem pretty happy to burden this topic with unnecessary complexity and obscurity. This is going to be a long and tedious discussion because you are forcing me to revert to first principles, as you pursue your personal political agendas.

The Searchlight statement is NOT a counter position. The allegation is that "The BNP supports the EDL". Their statement merely attempts to reinforce that allegation. Yes, their statement is a counter to the statement made by the BNP in refutation but please, this is tedious. All the 3rd party quotes (WP:truth) you are allowing here are supportive of one side.

Furthermore, their allegation is illogical, its a version of the witch dunking theory, they are guilty whatever they do or say, the 'fairness' of which I demonstrate by the rape victim example. By behaving in this way and quoting statements which do not allow of a sensible interpretation, you give the impression that you are doing all you can to support the left wing agenda, instead of trying to give the reader a balanced quick assessment of what's going on 'out there'. You can clearly support whichever point of view you wish by selective quoting.

If you really wish to quote that Searchlight statement, then it would be more rational to state: "Searchlight has said that proscription is BNP standard practice when attempting to establish 'deniability'.[7] Searchlight did not clarify by what means, in principle, ANY organisation can establish deniability of ANY given claim." Otherwise, how is the reader supposed to understand that statement? I don't see how they can deny anything, according to this framework? The rape victim can't deny being raped - thats a ploy. The BNP can't deny involvement - thats a ploy. And if there is no method of denying an allegation, then at best, that Searchlight quote is an irritating tautology.

At the moment it reads like this: 'The BNP denied involvement. But Searchlight says they are still guilty, and we like that statement so we are quoting it here, even though it doesn't add any facts to the discussion or even make logical sense. There is simply NO WAY the BNP could deny involvement in any of these allegations, they are just guilty. Deal with it.'

So, your next objection is to assert that 'The BNP assertion being a ploy is a reasonable possibility in this circumstance, therefore we quote the Searchlight warning on this'. Yes, and how convenient for you :-)

However, that possibility is a possibility of ANY assertion of ANY group or person. So will you now go thru Wikipedia and allow to be placed a warning against ALL assertions from every person or group, that that statement is a lying ploy? Of course, one has to find the media quotes, but I'm sure that's possible for the majority of the assertions.

And once we've posted 100,000 of these quoted warnings (from whatever source) denying 100,000 denials or assertions, will Wikipedia be any more informative?

AA747 (talk) 06:12, 4 January 2010 (UTC)

Searchlight is considered a reliable source and is frequently used as a source for articles about the far right because it writes extensively about them. Please read the essay WP:Truth which explains how Wikipedia articles like this one are written. The Four Deuces (talk) 07:41, 3 January 2010 (UTC)

You are not responding to the point I am making. I am not denying the validity of Searchlight as a source, I agree with its use as a source, it has validity (for the reader) whether it is 'true' or not. I am saying that Searchlight is being used too often in this case. There has to be a balance. This is not about truth, this is about helping the reader. It does not help the reader gain a balanced view when you even push the boat out to having nonsensical quotes from Searchlight, because you love it so much.

AA747 (talk) 06:12, 4 January 2010 (UTC)

Searchlight is not used because we "love it so much" but because it is a reliable source and provides more extensive coverage on the far right than other publications. It is also often used as a source for articles that appear in the major broadsheets. If you have reliably sourced material from other publications you think should be included then it would be helpful if you would provide it. It may be that the mainstream media treats EDL unfairly, but there is nothing that we can do to redress that problem here, since these articles reflect what is written in reliable sources. The only possilbe redress is either to persuade the media to change their reporting of EDL or to persuade WP to change its criteria for reliable sources. The Four Deuces (talk) 07:53, 4 January 2010 (UTC)

"If you have reliably sourced material from other publications you think should be included then it would be helpful if you would provide it." Fair enough. There seems to be a bit of a gap in the market/coverage in the UK, but I'll do my best.

  AA747 (talk) 03:11, 5 January 2010 (UTC)

I don't see how "Searchlight" can be considered any more reliable than the BNP or EDLs own sites. It claims to be anti-fascist but is anti-right wing. Searchlight takes out the bulb when it comes to looking at the rise of far-left anti-semitism. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 86.25.72.209 (talk) 08:44, 30 March 2010 (UTC)

I'm not a grotty thiing I am a police

Why is the police community hand out not RS?Slatersteven (talk) 20:09, 6 January 2010 (UTC)

Re: The Political Stance of EDL. Are they really far right?

From the article, it says that the EDL has a right-wing stance. It's obvious that they ARE right-wing, but could one really say they have a far-right position? From what can be seen, it is near-impossible to tell if the EDL have a stance like that of the BNP (racist, religiously prejudiced, etc.). I know a few fringe members are BNP ex-members but that's all we really know, isn't it? So my point is that the ONLY thing definite about the EDL is their opposition to Islamic extremism -- whether they are opposed to Muslims in general is something else and too ambiguous too tell.

In short, if the only thing we know about them for definite is their opposition to Islamic extremism, can we really call them far-right, based on that fact alone? Many people from all across the political spectrum feel opposition to Islamic extremism. after all. Personally, I don't think we can tar them with the same brush as the BNP (the term "far-right" often is used as a label for racially prejudiced (or in this case, religiously prejudiced) bigots)?

Just a minor point I felt needs to be discussed and cleared up.

Cheers

86.185.71.129 (talk) 18:04, 5 March 2010 (UTC) Sentreh

We go with what the sources say rather than do our own analysis. See WP:Verifiability. The Four Deuces (talk) 19:01, 5 March 2010 (UTC)

And who/what are the sources? Left wing journalists and newspapers? —Preceding unsigned comment added by 82.20.123.101 (talk) 19:34, 12 March 2010 (UTC)

Im not associated with the EDL or any other group (in fact Im a member of the Liberal democrats). I do feel however, that this article which has been locked to prevent editing, is very one sided and I would utterly dispute its neutrality. it is more opiniated than informational. It starts by stating the EDL is a 'far right political group' and there are more facts to suggest they are not. The article seems to concentrate on anti EDL sentiment rather than explanation or information. also the rather sleezy mention of 'many of whom had been drinking', as this is not substantiated by any clear facts.

This article should be challenged on the grounds of bias. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 92.234.254.227 (talk) 01:01, 7 March 2010 (UTC)

This article shows clear bias. It states as fact what is at best an assertion i.e. "far-right". The EDL itself says "We set out our stall very early on, we are not racist, we don’t like Nazis, we don’t want Nazis joining our demos. We embrace patriotism as something that transcends race, religion, creed and colour." http://www.englishdefenceleague.org/index.php?option=com_content&view=article&id=124:who-are-the-edl-exposing-the-myth&catid=42:feature-stories&Itemid=56 It would be nice to see some evidence to support the contrary view held by the editor of the current Wiki entry. --Flexdream (talk) 20:47, 20 March 2010 (UTC)

The sources for this page are demented. I thought the whole point of Wikipedia was to create a source of accurate and unbiased information? If so, why is it that the vast majority of sources are left wing? The Guardian is a left wing paper that plays to its readers with little concern for the truth or facts. The BBC is essentially the broadcast version of the Guardian. An example of bias today is the BBC using a headline on its website for a video: "EDL protesters clash with police", and then the video contains scenes of the police dealing with UAF protesters. Under that headline it says "police have arrested more than 50 demonstrators...", but the truth is out of the 67 arrests, 55 of those were UAF thugs. But the BBC doesn't see fit to inform its readers of this fact. Why? Well, the BBC is a left wing organisation, so it isn't likely to go for honesty when it can go for spin. Using the label far-right for a group that is a non political single issue group is a complete and total nonsense. How can it possibly be far-right simply for opposing violent extremists? Whether some of its members are racist or not has nothing to do with it. For one thing, racism is neither left nor right, it is simply racism, and for another thing, the aim of the group is NOT racist. Taking issue with the actual aim of the group because of the personal traits of some, or even all of its members is a logical fallacy; Ad Hominem. The left wing organisation calling the EDL far-right does not make it so. Who ever has the authority to sort this intellectual vandalism out, please do so, and get on with it. --86.182.141.84 (talk) 23:58, 20 March 2010 (UTC)

I agree - there are no valid sources that the EDL are right-wing, left-wing or any-wing. This seems to be a clear case of bias, and the fact the page is protected makes it even more dubious. 83.170.103.223 (talk) 00:01, 21 March 2010 (UTC)

The left-wing press brands all critics of Islam as right-wing, fascist, and racist. If a left-wing press makes such claim, but does not provide the evidence, the claim should be rejected. Compare this article with the Wikipedia articles about Adolf Hitler. The article about Adolf Hitler is much more favorable than the article about the EDL.Quinacrine (talk) 16:23, 23 March 2010 (UTC)

Articles must be based on reliable sources. Even if all reliable sources are biased and left-wing we cannot conduct our own original research. The Four Deuces (talk) 16:32, 23 March 2010 (UTC)

True but if they are biased then we cannot say (or imply) its a fact. We have to say (or imply) its an accusation.Slatersteven (talk) 13:37, 24 March 2010 (UTC)

It seems to be that you are arguing they are biased because they don't agree with you. A tirade against the supposed left wing press is pretty much par for the course for the far right. The BBC and the Guardian are reliable sources, long established in Wikipedia. You can challenge that in the appropriate forum if you want, but for the moment in respect of this article they stand in preference to any perspective you have, --Snowded ^TALK 13:58, 24 March 2010 (UTC)

I was pointing out that if they are aknowledged as biased then we cannot use them wihtout a caveat.Slatersteven (talk) 14:04, 24 March 2010 (UTC)

Well they are not, so that solves that one --Snowded ^TALK 14:08, 24 March 2010 (UTC)

The standard is verifiability not truth. If reliable sources say the sky is green then that is what we say. If we want the article to say the sky is blue then we must first persuade reliable sources to say it's blue. The Four Deuces (talk) 15:13, 24 March 2010 (UTC)

And it's not just "left wing" sources that describe them as such. The Telegraph, Express and Star among others all refer to them as a right-wing group, sometimes more specifically as far/extreme right. As do most mainstream politicians and observers. I think there's an arguable case that the article should attribute that description somehow, rather than stating it outright as objective fact without qualification. But that description is nonetheless pretty unanimous. As explained, if people don't like that, they need to take it up with the rest of the world, not with the wording of this page. And, while we're on the lead, the statement that the "political direction of the group is being debated" is a bit pointless surely. I think it was sourced to what is now quite an old Newsnight report, and even if still accurate, it says nothing much of substance. N-HH talk/edits 08:22, 25 March 2010 (UTC)

The reason I have reinstated the lead to the October 2009 wording is due to the extensive debate that took place in arriving at an acceptable consensus here. While not personally sharing the entire perspective it gives on this organisation, it is all the same the consensus and the entire lead, including the so called “political direction”, was the subject of many weeks of heated debate, including references to ANI. Until a more reliable source is identified we should therefore leave the lead exactly as it is. Leaky Caldron 14:00, 25 March 2010 (UTC)

But the statement was made about where the EDL supposedly was in October when the group was more or less first coming into view. The assertion is by its nature out of date. As it happens, six months later, the group's activities seem anyway to have settled into a fairly predictable pattern. Consensus in 1944 would correctly have identified the Second World War as an ongoing event, but you couldn't rely on that to say the same thing in 1946. I have no doubt debates of some sort are indeed going on within the group, but that's kind of a "so what?" statement for a lead, which just reads a bit oddly. Also people have gotten a bit too hung up on the "political" issue as a whole. The term can mean 101 things, and to say a group is political is not to claim that it is a party that wishes to contest elections. I don't think it matters too much either way whether the organisation is described as "political" or not. N-HH talk/edits 16:55, 25 March 2010 (UTC)

No, but you were not involved in the disputes about it! Can you provide a more contemporary, acceptable source indicating that EDL is either more or less political now than it was then? If things have changed the sources should be available, otherwise the consensus on the lead does not need to change and doing so will just stir things up unnecessarily. Leaky Caldron 17:16, 25 March 2010 (UTC)

Well, my point is not about whether they are more or less political now, indeed it's more that this is all a bit of a non-issue, especially for the lead (and btw, I have commented briefly in the past here - my username has changed slightly since then). Nor do I want the lead to say "their political direction was being debated [source 1] .. but now it's not [source 2]". As I said, I don't think it matters too much either way whether the organisation is described as "political" or not, hence there's no need anyway for a somewhat clumsy compromise about its "political direction being debated" to vaguely cover the point, even if it were still accurate. That just seems to be common sense, really, and doesn't seem to require inch-by-inch sourcing. Is it really going to be that controversial? Someone can find a source that says "The White Album is the Beatles' best album" or "Hitler is deciding whether to invade Poland" - I don't have to find a contrary source that says it isn't, or that he has subsequently made that decision, before we make an editorial judgment about whether it's appropriate or necessary to include those statements.

An opening sentence saying something along the lines of "The EDL is a single-issue English right-wing organisation, whose stated aim is to oppose radical Islamism. Since its formation in 2009, the group has organised a series of small but controversial protests in English cities, several of which have ended in violence and with the arrests of EDL members or counter-demonstrators. Mainstream politicans and media usually characterise the group as far right or fascist [although the group itself says that it is open to people of all races and faiths]" would seem to cover the key facts about the group, and to deal with the right wing issue fairly and neutrally as well. N-HH talk/edits 17:43, 25 March 2010 (UTC)

I fully support your suggested wording. It is an improvement. I would however have an issue with the insertion of "political" since I think it is sufficiently implied in the description "right-wing" without its specific inclusion and because I have seen no source that attempts to describe this bunch of protesters as explicitly political. Leaky Caldron 17:55, 25 March 2010 (UTC)

I would stay with "far right", since UKIP and the Conservatives could also be described as right-wing. The Four Deuces (talk) 21:59, 25 March 2010 (UTC)

I accept that could be an issue, but I was intending it to mean genuinely on the right in the broadest sense - ie one that includes the far right as a subset - rather than with an implicit "moderate" or "mainstream" attached. That way people can take what they like from it when they read it, and it might also just stop the constant battles over the description. It is the way media sources often refer to the group, presumably with similar reasoning, eg here in the Telegraph, or here in the Independent. N-HH talk/edits 07:31, 26 March 2010 (UTC)

ps: my wording excludes the "political" issue of course. As I've said, I don't see it as an issue one way or the other, although the EDL is clearly "political" in the wider sense of the term. I do think though that the demo issue should come up in the first sentence/paragraph of the lead. It's what they're mostly known for, far more than their internal debates, such as they are.

There are regular editors who will point blank refuse to accept a change involving the removal of "far" right. It is all contained in the archive_2 debates and from what I see elsewhere it is not likely that they would sign-off on a change here, now. Leaky Caldron 08:58, 26 March 2010 (UTC)

The article says EDL marches have been banned? Which ones? The problem seems to be that local councils/police cannot simply "ban" either the anti-Islamic EDL or anti-Jewish UAF when they announce marches/countermarches! —Preceding unsigned comment added by 86.25.72.209 (talk) 08:48, 30 March 2010 (UTC)

Interview with Trevor Kelway, one of the leaders of the English Defence League: http://gatesofvienna.blogspot.com/2010/04/interview-with-trevor-kelway.html#readfurther EXCERPT: The far right now brand us as “race-traitors” — they have repeatedly threatened and physically attacked us.Quinacrine (talk) 16:57, 3 April 2010 (UTC)

ANTI-EDL BIASED ARTICLE

This article is so biased it's untrue. The EDL is not a far-right political group, it's NOT far-right and it's NOT political either.

Read, Who We Are: http://www.englishdefenceleague.org/index.php?option=com_content&view=article&id=124:who-are-the-edl-exposing-the-myth&catid=42:feature-stories&Itemid=56

We, the English Defence League, are a grass roots social movement who represent every walk of life, every race, every creed and every colour; from the working class to middle England. Our unity and diversity is our strength.

Please, please, please stop using references from left-wing sympathising publications to edit this article it makes a mockery of Wikipedia. Thank you.

Wikipedia requires that all articles be written from a neutral point of view, and not introduce bias or give undue weight to viewpoints. This article about English Defence League blatantly violates this requirement.Quinacrine (talk) 19:47, 22 March 2010 (UTC)

Articles must be based on reliable third party sources. If you have any reliable sources (other than EDL publications) pleased tell us what they are. The Four Deuces (talk) 19:52, 22 March 2010 (UTC)

Merge in 2010 Bolton protests and riots

I'm proposing that the article on the 2010 Bolton protests and riots is merged in here. It was a minor event, and the protest and resulting event would be better covered in a paragraph or two here. Warofdreams talk 11:06, 24 March 2010 (UTC)

• CONCUR --Snowded ^TALK 11:15, 24 March 2010 (UTC)
• Support merge - there is already a paragraph at Unite Against Fascism. Ghmyrtle (talk) 11:40, 24 March 2010 (UTC)
• Support The Four Deuces (talk) 15:05, 24 March 2010 (UTC)
• Support Seems fair enough.Slatersteven (talk) 15:08, 24 March 2010 (UTC)
• Support A relatively minor event that's better written up as part of a series of incidents/demos. N-HH talk/edits 08:24, 25 March 2010 (UTC)
• Support I have added this event to EDL, regardless of the merge/delete decision. It was already in UAF and is consistent with the recording of previous similar EDL/UAF protests. Leaky Caldron 14:06, 26 March 2010 (UTC)
• Disagree - Keep This definately was a major event and deserves it's own page. Ggoere (talk) 08:27, 27 March 2010 (UTC)
• Support merge This was not a major event that deserves its own page. There was a lot of POV-pushing there too, including the innaccurate title (which I have remedied).Spylab (talk) 13:39, 27 March 2010 (UTC)
• Support per WP:NOTNEWS. Adambro (talk) 14:22, 5 April 2010 (UTC)
• Support merge, as it is a rather minor event, and as such it sets a poor precedent for it to have its own article. Centrepull (talk) 08:14, 3 May 2010 (UTC)
• Support It makes far more sense under the EDL article. The support's overwhelming, who's going to do it? Alistair Stevenson (talk) 20:15, 19 May 2010 (UTC)

Robert Spencer endorsement

Can you please explain why this should be deleted? --95.148.159.110 (talk) 18:20, 31 March 2010 (UTC)

Blogs and similar web sites are not generally considered a reliable source. Even if it was, then I see no case being made for notability of the individuals endorsement of the EDL. So you have to establish the source is reliable and that its relevant. You also need to read WP:BRD--Snowded ^TALK 18:38, 31 March 2010 (UTC)

Spencer might be unreliable but his statement of endorsement isn't. It's his own bloody website after all. For the record I'm a UAF supporter. --95.148.159.110 (talk) 18:48, 31 March 2010 (UTC)

Who you support is irrelevant. A blog is not a reliable source and you have made no argument as to why this is a notable addition --Snowded ^TALK 18:58, 31 March 2010 (UTC)

A blog is reliable if it quotes the blogger's own opinion. If you don't think Spencer is notable then nominate his article for deletion. --95.148.159.110 (talk) 19:00, 31 March 2010 (UTC)

Please learn to format your comments. A blog may be used, but its dubious and anyway you have now shown how Spencer's view is notable in respect of this article. --Snowded ^TALK 19:05, 31 March 2010 (UTC)

That's your opinion. I am not vandalising this article, so please don't delete until there is a consensus here. --95.148.159.110 (talk) 19:11, 31 March 2010 (UTC)

I formatted your comment again - you use colons to indent. Please read WP:BRD; you have inserted material and it has been reverted therefore you need tio discuss and make the case here. The onus is on you to make the case for new material. --Snowded ^TALK 19:16, 31 March 2010 (UTC)

Again that is your opinion, please wait until there is a consensus. This material is not violating anything. --95.148.159.110 (talk) 19:29, 31 March 2010 (UTC)

READ WP:BRD its a basic wikipedia rule and you have violated it. You should wait for consensus before adding in disputed material --Snowded ^TALK 19:33, 31 March 2010 (UTC)

WP:BRD is not even a guideline, let alone a policy. Please wait until we have a consensus. --95.148.159.110 (talk) 19:38, 31 March 2010 (UTC)

Are you really a new editor or have you edited under another name? The policy clearly regards "repeatedly inserting the same content when other contributors are rejecting it" as edit waring and WP:BRD is pretty clear. If you insert contested material it does not require consensus to remove it. I note your insertion of similar material on another article has also been reverted. You are also not engaging with the argument here on the talk page. You have not made any case as to why the material is notable here (whether Spencer is notable or not is another mater) or why we should take a blog as a reliable source. I'll leave it to you tonight, but if there is no good argument here in the morning then it gets reverted. --Snowded ^TALK 19:45, 31 March 2010 (UTC)

"Editors typically reach consensus as a natural and inherent product of editing; generally someone makes a change or addition to a page, then everyone who reads it has an opportunity to leave the page as it is or change it." Please see WP:Consensus. --95.148.159.110 (talk) 19:47, 31 March 2010 (UTC)

and they also have the option to revert it at which point the obligation is on the proposer to make the case. So far you have not made that case, and you have not answered the arguments above. (and please learn to indent your comments) --Snowded ^TALK 19:50, 31 March 2010 (UTC)

Can you please give a direct quote about that "rule"? --95.148.159.110 (talk) 19:53, 31 March 2010 (UTC)

Aside from the fact that WP:BRD is very clear and complements WP:consensus this phrase might help you "Edit wars, such as repeatedly inserting the same content when other contributors are rejecting it, lead to page protection and suspension of your ability to edit rather than improvements to the page.". The policy makes it clear that reversion is an option. In this case you have inserted a new section. I have disputed that and given arguments to support that position. You have not answered the answered those arguments, and you have reinserted deleted material. If you check it out you will find [[WP:BRD is extensively quoted in RFI reports and and other material. I suggest you (i) self revert (ii) argue your case rather trying to assert that consensus is required to remove your addition and (iii) learn to use colons to indent your comments. I'm just off a 13 hour flight so I'm going to bed. However if there is no solid argument here in the morning then I am reverting to the stable position. --Snowded ^TALK 20:03, 31 March 2010 (UTC)

I will be bold and delete the edit. Notability has not been established and there is no consensus for its inclusion. The Four Deuces (talk) 20:10, 31 March 2010 (UTC)

Spencer is the author of two New York Times bestsellers, if you don't think he's notable then delete his article. --95.148.159.110 (talk) 20:24, 31 March 2010 (UTC)

Spencer's views on EDL are not notable, although he is a notable person. Lots of fringe writers have best-sellers but we do not put their views into articles except those relating to them. If his endorsement is notable then it will be picked up in reliable third party sources. Maybe he will set up a US chapter. The Four Deuces (talk) 20:44, 31 March 2010 (UTC)

I can see some merit in mentioning this in passing, if simply to inform readers of how the various espousers of this fringe position slot together. 94.192.227.0 (talk) 19:26, 4 April 2010 (UTC)

We still need a secondary source reporting the endorsement, per WP:RS and WP:Notability WP:Weight. The Four Deuces (talk) 19:56, 4 April 2010 (UTC)

I disagree. WP:RS allows for self-published sources to be used for stating their own opinions, and WP:Notability does include WP:NNC, I note. 94.192.227.0 (talk) 20:32, 4 April 2010 (UTC)

(out) "Questionable sources should only be used as sources of material on themselves, especially in articles about themselves." Why do you think that we should include something that has received zero attention in reliable sources? The Four Deuces (talk) 21:01, 4 April 2010 (UTC)

I'm supporting a very brief mention for the reason I stated above, nothing more. The big link banner to Spencer's site on the EDL's site and sudden move to accuse opponents of being communists hints at a major interplay, even if it is original research :) If you now want to talk about WP:Weight, ( though why pop back and edit the old comment rather than raise it on this one? ), sure. I certainly agree the original mention was excessively verbose, but how does "Robert Spencer has expressed support for the group", near the bottom of the article, strike yourself and other editors, Deuces? 94.192.227.0 (talk) 21:52, 4 April 2010 (UTC)

If and when a reliable source decides to cover Spencer's connection with the EDL then I will support its inclusion. Undue weight says: "How much weight is appropriate should reflect the weight that is given in current reliable sources." At present there is nothing. If you want to include this I suggest taking it to dispute resolution. The Four Deuces (talk) 22:53, 4 April 2010 (UTC)

Dispute resolution seems a little premature at this point. I note that SpinWatch has been used as source on numerous wikipedia articles and has a nice little piece on the matter, which demonstrates the links I wish to highlight. Any more comfortable with that? 94.192.227.0 (talk) 00:37, 8 April 2010 (UTC)

So far no one has questioned the reliability of Spinwatch at WP:RSN. I have now posted a query. However notice that the story does not say that Spencer endorsed the EDL, just that Richard Bartholomew reported that he met with them, but he has denied the meeting. The Four Deuces (talk) 15:20, 8 April 2010 (UTC)

Thanks for double checking over on the noticeboard, given the contentious nature of this article it's probably wise. I'm aware of the content of the article, but it would support as statement along the lines of 'there have been suggestions of links between the EDL and U.S. neoconservative groups'. That would be acceptable as far as I'm concerned. 94.192.227.0 (talk) 17:23, 8 April 2010 (UTC)

So what exactly is the issue, now, Leaky Cauldron. Explain why the current edit is unacceptable, please? 94.192.227.0 (talk) 12:20, 27 April 2010 (UTC)

There is no consensus for the inclusion of what amounts to nothing more than a rumour. The notice board is hardly fullsome in its backing and the content of the Blog is nothing more than an unsubstantiated allegation. I would like to see more discussion first. I would also like you to follow the Alternate account notification guidance raised on your talk page. Leaky Caldron 12:35, 27 April 2010 (UTC)

Agree, but if the story is notable it will be picked up by MSM and then we can put it in. TFD (talk) 18:38, 29 April 2010 (UTC)

Anti-Mosque group

Is the group not against the construction of mosques?--478jjjz (talk) 10:39, 4 April 2010 (UTC)

It seems to be generally against anything associated with Islam which in any way differs from a very narrow definition of English culture and mores. My view is that it should be cut back to anti-islamic rather than listing everything --Snowded ^TALK 10:40, 4 April 2010 (UTC)

You do, then, agree that it is against mosques. Why do you want to be vague?--478jjjz (talk) 10:44, 4 April 2010 (UTC)

Think about it. It would be more precise to write "EDL is against Islamic institutions. For example, it is against the construction of mosques."

If you need help with the writing process, then please review explanation/description by examples.--478jjjz (talk) 10:55, 4 April 2010 (UTC)

(edit conflict)::They may well be against Mosques. They were involved in an march against the erection of a new Mosque in Walsall I believe. I have an issue with calling that a "Mosque controversy" and adding it to that Category. It is not a controversy to be against something, and that particular Mosque doesn't have an article, so simply adding EDL to that Cat. makes no sense. As for adding it to the list of things they oppose, again, so what? Is it really notable that they are opposed Mosques, given what else they oppose? Leaky Caldron 11:01, 4 April 2010 (UTC)

I didn't know about the Walsall mosque. I have just read in the news about the protests against the construction of a mosque in Dudley. Furthermore, the development by examples is a good writing technique. You can write "The EDL is opposed to mosques, burqas, Koranic education in public schools, Arabic education ...." I have made up the last two items in my hypothetical example to elaborate on effective writing.--478jjjz (talk) 11:08, 4 April 2010 (UTC)

It was the Dudley mosque I meant, not Walsall, sorry. It is the addtion to the Category I have the main issue with. Adding it to the list in the lead doesn't concern me to much, I just don't think it is a big deal. Leaky Caldron 11:18, 4 April 2010 (UTC)

Agree, category is a mistake. For the lede its an issue of economy. If you end up listing all aspects of Islam that the EDL dislike then the list will end up as too long. The stanford style guide relates to something completely different --Snowded ^TALK 11:22, 4 April 2010 (UTC)

Dispute that the EDL states that it opposes only "jihadists", not all Muslims.

On their "About Islam" [11] page, they state "People are not the problem here; the source of the problem is the Islamic ideology that demands the extermination of kuffar like you." "But this does not change the fact that when they act as Muslims, even in a courteous and friendly manner, they are participating in a system that is working toward your extermination and the destruction of your society." "The ostensible complexity of Islam is simply due to the different interpretations as to how to achieve this goal, but [all branches of Islam] involve the disappearance of [none Muslims] at some stage…without exception."

The BBC piece the article cites has one comment from an anonymous "mixed race teenager," whom another anonymous purported EDL member says is the head of the Youth Wing. The comment is "We want them back, not from the Muslims, but from the jihadist extremists that are operating in the Muslim communities. And the Muslim communities need to deal with their extremists." and this is the evidence that the article cites that the EDL is not opposed to all of Islam.

One can see that this is clearly wrong, can we change this. It is true they do embrace all ethnicities, but they are certainly not only opposed to "jihadists", as they make no distinction between the varying branches of Islam and the various Islamist schools of though (Like Qutbism, for example), tarring them all with the same brush in a clear manner.

Something that some anonymous person once said is not a source that can tell us about the policies of the EDL, regardless of whether it is on the BBC or not. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 83.100.175.71 (talk) 11:12, 7 April 2010 (UTC)

We must rely on reliable sources, which excludes the EDL website. If you have reliable sources, please say what they are. The Four Deuces (talk) 00:35, 15 April 2010 (UTC)

Numbers

This wikipedia page itself states that 1500 people attended the EDL demo in Stoke and 2000 at Bolton. But at the top of the page it sugests only 300 are members. The information on numbers at the tope of the page should be changed. It should say around 1000 to 3000 are members, with a link(s) to recent EDL demos showing 1000 to 3000 members at the demos. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Bnnnnnn (talk • contribs) 22:52, 16 April 2010 (UTC)

Everything runs back to source. They are sourced as having xxx members. That doesn't mean they have not got xxxx supports or other followers who attand their marches. Now please STOP introducing unsourced opinions without sources or find yourself reported and possibly blocked. Thanks. Leaky Caldron 23:25, 16 April 2010 (UTC)

Make new page; 2010 EDL protests in the UK

I have an idea; as we have had several complaints that this doesn't deserve a page on its own if others in the UK don't, why don't we create and new article called 2010 EDL protests in the UK or something, and merge this into it? Your ideas below.

Support - obviously I support as it was my idea and I think it would work. Ggoere (talk) 10:36, 23 May 2010 (UTC)

Oppose - wholly unnecessary WP:Content fork. If you wish to add material about any EDL-related event it can be added here, subject to WP:Notability and WP:Reliable Source policies. Leaky Caldron 10:49, 23 May 2010 (UTC)

Oppose One should not create child articles unless the parent article becomes overly large. TFD (talk) 11:09, 23 May 2010 (UTC)

Oppose Seems that we do not need another articel about a relativly minor group.Slatersteven (talk) 13:01, 23 May 2010 (UTC)

The lead, again

I raised this a while back, and proposed an alternative wording, which did get some support, but I'm just putting it back up for discussion. It's an improvement in three ways, in my view -

• It provides some early attribution for the full "far right" description, stating only in the narrative voice that they are "right wing" in the broadest sense, a description often used by the media as well as the full far right one. However obvious the full far right description might be, having attribution would probably be more policy compliant, and would also help stem the constant removals of the term from the lead's first para.
• It removes the "political direction is being debated .." phrasing. It may well be true (which organisations don't have at least some level of internal debate, however unsophisticated?) but is both a little clunky and banal, and also now out of date, sourced as it is to comments from one individual in an old Newsnight interview. The "political" or not point - which in my view is something of a non-issue anyway - is more or less covered by describing it as a "single issue right wing group"
• It highlights in the first para the issue of demonstrations, and the violence at those demos, which is what the group is mainly known for.

The EDL is a single-issue English right-wing organisation, whose stated aim is to oppose radical Islamism. Since its formation in 2009, the group has organised a series of small but controversial protests in English cities, several of which have ended in violence and with the arrests of EDL members or counter-demonstrators. Mainstream politicans and media usually characterise the group as far right or fascist [although the group itself says that it is open to people of all races and faiths]

The earlier brief debate on this can be found in this section. N-HH talk/edits 11:56, 25 May 2010 (UTC)

I would support this wording, although some work may be needed on it's neutrality since it implies that EDL have been the initiator of the associated violence, which is not the case in every demo they have been involved in. I would not support anything that further politicises the group until reliable sources clearly support it. This was at the heart of the matter last year - hence the "clunky and banal" current version of the lead. Leaky Caldron 12:46, 25 May 2010 (UTC)

I agree with this wording as an improvement on the current lead the article has. I share Leaky Caldron's reservations, however.--Britannicus (talk) 13:06, 25 May 2010 (UTC)

I tried to avoid the point about responsibility for violence at the demos by saying simply "several of which have ended in violence ..", which is uncontroversially true. As for the "political direction .." point, I know it was a compromise, which is probably why it's a bit clunky (I wasn't trying to be rude to those who helped write it by saying that, btw) - but I personally can't see what exact issue needs to be subject to compromise there, or that the current wording really helps or adds anything accurate or current about the group. I mean the group are obviously "political" in the widest sense of the word, but equally I wouldn't support stating that explicitly, since it's ultimately fairly vague and meaningless as a description, and adds nothing substantive to the other characteristics ascribed to them. Anyway, unless someone violently objects shortly, I'll insert the new wording, and it is then of course open to further amendement, addition whatever. N-HH talk/edits 14:05, 25 May 2010 (UTC)

We should avoid the expression "usually characterise" which raises doubt as to whether they are "far right". Also, the group's denial should not be given much credence. They would say that wouldn't they? Please see WP:NPOV#Assert facts: Facts which can be verified in reliable sources, and about which there is no serious dispute among such sources, can be asserted directly in Wikipedia articles. For example, that a survey produced a certain published result, that there is a planet called Mars, or that Plato was a philosopher, can simply be stated without any need for an inline qualifier of the type "John Doe believes...". TFD (talk) 22:39, 25 May 2010 (UTC)

Understood, but it's not inaccurate as such to phrase it that way. As noted, if nothing else, it would stop people constantly removing the term. On its own that's probably not enough of a reason, and would be a needless compromise - but at the same time, "far right" is often a contentious and pejorative description, and is less of a clear fact than, say, that Plato was a philosopher, or Mozart a composer, or that Mars is a planet. On that basis attribution is arguably required. Yes, the group's denial is probably worthless, but I think it does matter (and some supporters would seem to genuinely believe it, at least until they go on a demo, from some of the coverage I've seen). Anyway, I don't see that we'd be fudging the point that much by unambiguously placing them on the broad "right wing" (not, note "moderate" or "centre-right"), and then attributing the more specific "far right", using phrasing that makes clear the description is near-universal. And the other aspects of the changes? N-HH talk/edits 10:09, 26 May 2010 (UTC)

I don't think they are far-right. Their stated aim is to demonstrate against Islamism, which is a perfectly reasonable thing to do.--Britannicus (talk) 16:48, 26 May 2010 (UTC)

We must not cast doubt on a description unless reliable sources cast doubt upon it. By attributing the description we would be implying that there is a serious opinion that disagrees with the assessment. Notice that the news media, but more importantly groups that study the far right use this classification without qualification. There are by the way groups that oppose immigration and "Islamism" that are not far right, and it would be wrong to lend respectability to EDL by confusing them with these groups. If anyone disagrees with the description "far right" please find a source that provides an opposing view. TFD (talk) 17:34, 26 May 2010 (UTC)

If by "groups that study the far-right" you mean Searchlight then that was founded and edited by a Communist. I'm not sure what "respectability" is in this context and I don't think it matters if they are or aren't quite frankly. Wikipedia should not be ruling which organisations are "respectable" or not. It should present he facts. I find it hard to call an organisation far-right which burns the swastika.--Britannicus (talk) 21:01, 26 May 2010 (UTC)

Do you have another source that you think should be used? TFD (talk) 21:29, 26 May 2010 (UTC)

But whether they are "far right" or not - which remains a subjective assessment, not a fact, even if it is a broadly universal assessment - the far right is by definition a subset of the right, and hence it is not inaccurate to say they are at the least more broadly "right wing", and then that most observers cast them more specifically, within that range, as "extreme/far right wing". And for the record, here are a couple of media reports that simply use the broader "right wing" description. The Birmingham Mail, here; The Brighton Argus, here; The Times, here; The Guardian, here. I'm quite sure that most of those papers would, as I would, class them as a far right group - they often describe them as such at other times. When they use the wider "right wing" description, they are not saying they are not far right, and neither would we be. WP text would, however, be in line with what the sources as a whole say. N-HH talk/edits 18:35, 26 May 2010 (UTC)

ps: oddly, the police don't think they are an extreme right group, if this report and quote is to be believed. I haven't looked into this more deeply, so it may be quoted out of context, and/or the position may have been revised more recently of course. Whatever one thinks of the police's role in dealing with racism and far right groups, their official viewpoint does count.

The term is subjective and there is considerable literature about it. In the UK it refers to groups that derived from or were inspired by or are similar to the Blackshirts. Throughout time, these groups have had overlapping leadership and membership, although their ideology has developed over time and their tactics have varied. BTW here is a link to the commissioner's statement (it's on page 10). I think it also belongs in the article, although I do not see it as contradictory. TFD (talk) 20:48, 26 May 2010 (UTC)

Drinking heavily?

This is a questionable addition.

There is a valid issue which needs to be resolved here. This issue is that the 'source' of Verbal's addition is deemed 'unsuitable' for a reference to criticise the UAF on the Wiki. page, yet Verbal thinks it is a reliable source to be used upon this page to show the EDL in a negative manner?

Of course all journalists are known to put their own spin on articles of any kind, but I doubt a journalist from the Guardian would know whether masses of EDL supporters have been drinking, and to excess just prior to a demo.

Obviously there is an issue of double-standards which needs to be resolved here. If there is an alternate source which describes this incident (and a source which has by supposed consnsus not been judged 'unreliable' on either the EDL or UAF pages previously) then Ive no issue with it being added here, but unless one can be found it should not be included here, or if it is, then I fully expect to see from another supposedly impartial Wiki. user the revert of the 22 March removal of the criticism of the UAF to apparent 'blindness to Islamist Jew hatred' on the UAF page.

Tnank you. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 82.1.235.149 (talk) 18:19, 1 June 2010 (UTC)

Could you explain where it was decided on the UAF page - or anywhere else - that a news report in the Guardian is likely to be unreliable (for what such a consensus would be worth anyway)? Looking at the UAF issue, I can only assume you are referring to attempts to insert details from a blogger's guest post on the Comment is Free section of the paper's website, which were resisted. There's a fundamental difference between each of those sources. The one being used here is a factual report that was printed in the paper and also published in the main news section of the website. As a separate point, you are of course free to argue the toss about whether it's worth including the reference to drinking, but it was certainly reported in what is prima facie a reliable source per WP policy. N-HH talk/edits 18:39, 1 June 2010 (UTC)

If you doubt that the Guardian is a reliable source then you should challenge it at the reliable sources noticeboard. You may also write to the Guardian requesting that they correct what you believe to be an error or report them to the Press Complaints Commission. Otherwise, the Guardian's story must be considered a reliable source for the article. TFD (talk) 18:42, 1 June 2010 (UTC)

Guardian is a WP:RS. It is one of the best UK newspapers. Verbal chat 21:22, 1 June 2010 (UTC)

I don’t think the key issue here is the reliability of the source. That is self-evident. What concerns me is whether it warrants inclusion at all. How is it within policy to include as genuinely notable content that “(many of whom had been drinking)” and that “When the rally was over, police escorted EDL supporters to bus and railway stations”. I think this is minutiae and its purpose within the article is unclear and could be considered as projecting an intention to denigrate the subject.
The first piece, with its obvious use of () to reinforce the content, seems to be a clear breech of this policy which is fundamental and extols that even where a topic is presented in terms of facts rather than opinions, inappropriate tone can be introduced through the way in which facts are selected, presented, or organized. The second reintroduced facet about being escorted to the station again raises the question, “so what?” what does the reader gain from seeing trivia in a so-called encyclopedic article?
In addition to the discussion on a revised lead above, I would like interested, non-biased editors to consider the appropriateness of this potentially trivial/non-neutral content. Leaky Caldron 22:49, 1 June 2010 (UTC)

It seems accurate and relevant to me. TFD (talk) 00:05, 2 June 2010 (UTC)

It is accurate, relevan, and notable. Verbal chat 05:58, 2 June 2010 (UTC)

The English Defence League

Why is the EDL being discribed has a "far right" group? It is not! This is slander, and legal action is to be concidered to prevent this kind of character assassination. This was begun by sections of the "far" left and certain left wing media outlets. We ask for a reasoned debate concerning the spread of Islam and its practises, in the UK, and the western world in general. We also ask, that the Quran and suras be subject to scrutiny in light of British law. Ref- later Quranic teaching. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 86.174.94.123 (talk) 10:32, 5 June 2010 (UTC)

The EDL is described as a "far right" group because that's how the sources that have been cited in the article describe the EDL. This seems fairly non-contentious to me - at least in Scotland mainstream news sources use "far right" when discussing the EDL - but did you have a particular concern about any of the sources used?

This talk page is not the place to debate Islam etc, or to "subject the Quaran to scrutiny in light of British law". The talk page is where we discuss ways to improve the article (your question regarding the "far right" tag is "on topic", so I've addressed it - the other things you raise would be more appropriately discussed elsewhere).

Cheers, TFOWR^{idle vapourings} 11:00, 5 June 2010 (UTC)

EDL affiliations with convicted terrorists and internal disputes

According to this article: <http://barthsnotes.wordpress.com/2009/10/23/paul-ray-identifies-with-northern-ireland-loyalist-groups/ the EDL are having internal disputes and also include among their ranks convicted Nazi bomber Nick Greger. The same article alludes to another convicted terrorist, Johnny Adair, being rumoured to join. Johnny Adair and Nick Greger are known associates and there is a Donal MacIntyre documentary entitled "Mad Dog and Nazi Nick" that highlights their relationship.

Here is Greger in an EDL video http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qGq6_lvQ064 and he is pictured in the above article.

This, more recent, article: http://barthsnotes.wordpress.com/2010/06/08/johnny-adair-to-help-paul-ray-and-nick-greger-take-over-english-defence-league/ and the above youtube video outline some divides within the ranks of the EDL on the relations between Nick Greger, Paul Ray and the EDL membership.

In the above youtube video, as broken down in the above article dated 2010/06/08, Paul Ray discusses threats made against his family by the EDL.

Omar418 (talk) 06:34, 3 July 2010 (UTC)

I would say that as this is a blog (barthsnotes) it fails RS. Also I wuo0ld douobt youtube is admisable in this respect>Slatersteven (talk) 15:33, 3 July 2010 (UTC)

The EDL website was also moderated by one Michael HEaton, aka "Wigan Mike" a member of the Neo-Nazi organisations the British Freedom Fighters" and the Aryan Strike Force" recently sentenced to 2+ years for soliciting the murders of Jews on the Aryan Strike Force website. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 143.167.236.166 (talk) 01:30, 9 July 2010 (UTC)

We must wait until this news is reported mainstream sources before adding it to the article, and of course it may never be. TFD (talk) 02:53, 9 July 2010 (UTC)

Jewish EDL Facebook page

I have removed the following content "The EDL also incorporates a "Jewish Division" which has it's (sic) own Facebook page" as it is primary sourced. We do not know if this is an official part, and have no reliable secondary or tertiary sources that discuss it or show it is a recognised part of the "EDL". We should certainly not be including a link to the group's facebook page. It also violates WP:LEAD. Verbal chat 20:43, 19 July 2010 (UTC)

Agreed BritishWatcher (talk) 20:45, 19 July 2010 (UTC)

I appreciate the argument that including links to EDF web site gives this dubious (to put it politely) group publicity. The fact is, though, that anyone who is interested in the EDL, who is capable of tracking down this article, will have no difficulty in finding the EDL site for themselves. If we want to go down the road of denying publicity to this group then the more effective action would be to remove the entire article. Prunesqualer (talk) 21:33, 19 July 2010 (UTC)

I have replaced the EDL web links with a Jewish Chronicle article (on reflection I would agree that links to EDL sites were better avoided). Prunesqualer (talk) 22:00, 19 July 2010 (UTC)

Re The English Defence League "Jewish Division".

On several occasions have added a reference to the English Defence League's "Jewish Division". On the first occasion I had spelt Face Book as two words, and only included a link to the division's Facebook page as evidence. This was reverted (fair enough). However subsequently I corrected the Facebook spelling, and added a link to the EDL's own web site. This site has a section dedicated to it's "Jewish Division" which includes a link to the "Jewish Division" Facebook page. Please also note that the Haaretz piece, cited later in this article, also corroborates the existence of the EDL "Jewish Division". Reverting my contribution, in the face of this evidence amounts to vandalism. Kindly desist.Prunesqualer (talk) 21:10, 19 July 2010 (UTC)

See WP:NOTVAND, and get agreement for your edits first as this is a controversial topic. Has it been established that the EDL website is official now? There was some dispute as to that, and I can't remember the outcome offhand. Verbal chat 21:36, 19 July 2010 (UTC)

Not sure if I am missing the point here, but isn't the Ha'aretz article source enough for the purposes of the article? There's no need to cite facebook or the EDL website, as far as I can see. --FormerIP (talk) 21:53, 19 July 2010 (UTC)

untrue description of the organisation

My editing of the description of this organisation has been deleted and reverted by editor Jarkeld.

He/she claims, in a message to me "as you did to English Defence League, without giving a valid reason for the removal in the edit summary". That it untrue. I clearly filled out the Edit Summary Box my reasons with the words, Editors please note.

The present description of the organisation is as follows: The English Defence League (EDL) is an English far-right single-issue political organisation formed in 2009. Its stated aim is to oppose what it considers as the spread of Islamism, Sharia law and Islamic extremism in England, although the EDL's political direction is being debated within the group.[1][2]

Both evidence cited are from a single source, the BBC. The BBC reporter tries to prove his case by stating their are football hooligans in the organisation. That does not make it Far right.

1. Neither of the reports shows any evidence that this organisation is far right.

By far right, I quote the Wikipedia definition. "Far right, extreme right, hard right, radical right, and ultra-right are terms used to discuss the qualitative or quantitative position a group or person occupies within right-wing politics. Far right politics involves supremacism, believing that superiority and inferiority is an innate reality between individuals and groups and involves the complete rejection of the concept of social equality as a norm.[1] Far right politics supports segregation, and the separation of groups deemed to be superior from groups deemed to be inferior.[2] Far-right politics and political views commonly include authoritarianism, homophobia, nativism, racism, and xenophobia.[3]"

2. It is blatantly obvious that it is not a "political" organisation.

This organisation is NOT anti islam, it is "anti-islamic jihad" group has members from multi race and religions who have one objective. To bring to notice of the public of the creeping islamisation - not just in England, but also across many countries all over the world.

Wikipedia is an unbiased encyclopedia. It should be left to the readers to read the full article to decide. The first line of this article is the author(s) interpretation and opinion and introduces bias at the very beginning.

That cannot be correct.

I have been following this groups activities for a while. I have corrected the description only, to make it unbiased. I have not changed any of the subsequent reports or references of the organisation activities.

My edits should be allowed to stand.

86.139.147.223 (talk) 13:37, 25 July 2010 (UTC) —Preceding unsigned comment added by Awmyth (talk • contribs) 13:31, 25 July 2010 (UTC)

Reliable sources describe it as far right so it belongs in the article, i do have concerns about it being described as a "political organisation" though. That could be worded far better, even if there is a source backing up "political organisation" it does not really make sense. BritishWatcher (talk) 13:34, 25 July 2010 (UTC)

Off-topic comment follows: interesting point. I've tried to suggest that EDL (a dab page) describe the English Defence League as a "British political organisation", to avoid the incessant edit warring between EDL supporters and its opposition. I think you're right, though. Any suggestions for a better term? (Probably best if we move this part to Talk:EDL though...) TFOWR 13:43, 25 July 2010 (UTC)

(ec)WIkipedia works from reliable third party sources and those see it as a far right organisation. Until you can find an authoritative source which says otherwise then the current text stands. I would also say that it has a clear political intent --Snowded ^TALK 13:36, 25 July 2010 (UTC)

It has political intent but a "Political organisation" makes it sound rather too organised and formal. BritishWatcher (talk) 13:40, 25 July 2010 (UTC)

Do RS call it a political organisation? If not then perhpas Political movment.Slatersteven (talk) 13:42, 25 July 2010 (UTC)

its a small p political organisation not a large P one. The formation of such single issue organisations is also a feature of extreme right wing political groups, its a form of recruitment. (Oh and extreme left as well) I seem to remember when this was discussed before that the sources did support it, but such things should always be checked--Snowded ^TALK 13:48, 25 July 2010 (UTC)

(edit conflict)

Agree with BW. This was all gone over last year ago and a form of wording was agreed that excluded the first reference to "political", leaving the rather more oblique second reference. User Verbal:Verbal was party to this but a couple of months ago he reintroduced it and denied that such discusion/agreement had occurred. It slants the political emphasis too much; there are no RS for political and right wing is adequate to cover the inference that it is political. Leaky Caldron 13:52, 25 July 2010 (UTC)

FAr Right Anti-Islamic Organisation then?Slatersteven (talk) 13:54, 25 July 2010 (UTC)

Lets give Verbal a chance to comment, I don't think its a major issue but lets not jump until we get commentary --Snowded ^TALK 13:56, 25 July 2010 (UTC)

I don’t think he entitled to any more deference than anyone else here. He reintroduced political into the lead against consensus here [12] with an obtuse edit summary and then denied the consensus in this edit summary [13], despite having been heavily involved in the consensus version here [14]. Leaky Caldron 14:19, 25 July 2010 (UTC)

Perhaps it might be usefull if someone could point to which source calls them a politiccal organisation.

No one is going to die if we wait a bit and reach a true consensus. Let it run overnight and check in tomorrow to see if someone wants to argue the case --Snowded ^TALK 14:31, 25 July 2010 (UTC)

Mathew Goodwin (in the Newsnight source) calls it a social movement. So lets call it what RS call it. you can find an authoritative source which says otherwise then we must use the phrase used by the RS in the articel.Slatersteven (talk) 14:39, 25 July 2010 (UTC)

Its also called a street movement, and then we have this "Nick Lowles, from Searchlight, said: "What we are seeing now is the most serious, most dangerous, political phenomenon that we have had in Britain for a number of years" from here. So lets discuss shall we. --Snowded ^TALK 14:45, 25 July 2010 (UTC)

Grassroots movement (used by Goodwin) usually denotes a political movement. Jarkeld (talk) 14:50, 25 July 2010 (UTC)

But does not automaticly mean that. And the ortehr newsnight source makes it claer that they are not at this time a political movement. And seems to imply this is prof Goodwins opinion. political phenomenon does not mean political organisation, nor does street movement We should remove the claimk they are a political organisation un till RS can be found that call them that, aplly the same rules to what you don't like to what you do.Slatersteven (talk) 14:57, 25 July 2010 (UTC)

Goodwin's comment (in the early days of the EDL) raises the question of their development as a political movement. We can find sources to say they are a street movement, a social movement, a political phenomenon and various other descriptions. We really need a more recent article from an authoritative source which is more than just a recent report. I think Searchlight did an investigation but I don't have immediate access to it. --Snowded ^TALK 15:02, 25 July 2010 (UTC)

What the guardian sources says. It calls them a “far-right street movement”. Also your Nick Lowles quote in full "What we are seeing now is the most serious, most dangerous, political phenomenon that we have had in Britain for a number of years. With EDL protests that are growing week in, week out there is a chance for major disorder and a major political shift to the right in this country." Its obvious he is talking about a shift in political opinion, what thier danger is, not what the EDL is. So if you cannot find a source that calls them political the word should be removed.Slatersteven (talk) 15:11, 25 July 2010 (UTC)

Slater, I am open to changing the lede, I just want us to discuss it properly first. "Far Right street movement" is one possibility. However its hard to see how a political phenomenon can be other than a political movement. --Snowded ^TALK 15:15, 25 July 2010 (UTC)

I can agree to that wording, as to the second point. The phenomenon may be what has created the EDL, not what the EDL is. But reading Mr Lowles quote I would say the phenomenon cannot be the EDL (it has not been around for a number of years, its been around for one). It is mopst likely (as I susgest in the first sentance of this message) that he is talking about the growth of the far right in this country, and the potential danger teh EDL posses with regard to that phenomenon.Slatersteven (talk) 15:21, 25 July 2010 (UTC)

OK I will amend to that as at least its progress, but reserve the right to return to the political question if other editors get involved. I disagree on your interpretation of Lowies by the way, but it can be read in several ways. --Snowded ^TALK 15:23, 25 July 2010 (UTC)

We don't remove verified and well sourced information as a "compromise" with those that seek to bias coverage. This is a political organisation, as supported by sources and basic definition of the same (ie not synth). Verbal chat 15:49, 25 July 2010 (UTC)

Leaky is also wrong that there was ever consensus to remove the term. Verbal chat 15:50, 25 July 2010 (UTC)

Have you got the refs to hand Verbal? --Snowded ^TALK 15:51, 25 July 2010 (UTC)

Here is one, and another, plus all the references to right wing (a political designation), and the dictionary definition of political. Google can provide many many more. Verbal chat

Lets not go down that road of do groups fit the dictionary definition shall we. Also no synthatsis please. As to the two sources, are they RS?Slatersteven (talk) 16:01, 25 July 2010 (UTC)

Yes they fit all definitions simply, it is a non contentious fact and not synthesis. Please drop this flimsy attempt to claim the EDL is something other than it is. The only sources that claim the EDL are not political fail RS, yet they clearly fit the definition and we have independent news sources calling them political. Verbal chat 16:12, 25 July 2010 (UTC)

I was referring to the statment "plus all the references to right wing (a political designation)" That would be sysnthassi to say that source a says a source b says b so c is true. Also why have the new sources not been put in teh artciel?Slatersteven (talk) 16:15, 25 July 2010 (UTC)

"an English far-right single-issue political street movement" Is better than political organisation but im still not sure about the first sentence. is "single issue" really needed? Could it not say something like "an English far right political street movement formed in 2009 with its stated aim to oppose what it considers ..". And is "political" still really needed there?, What about "an far right street movement formed in 2009 to...." BritishWatcher (talk) 16:33, 25 July 2010 (UTC)

I think "an English far right political street movement formed" is a good suggestion if we can agree on the reliability of the sources--Snowded ^TALK 16:36, 25 July 2010 (UTC)

Woould seem OK, but I thought sources had to be "Mainstream news sources, especially those at the high-quality end of the market" not sure that applies to local papers. I mwould be happier with national news sources saying this. Ther is also the issue heere of Undue. If all the national news sources do not describe them as political and two local newspaper reporters do we may be giving this far more attention then it deserves. The fact that the spources have not actualy been inluded makes me think that they may not pass muster.Slatersteven (talk) 16:43, 25 July 2010 (UTC).

Especially as one of those local newspapers is clearly from a POV of the writter. Reliable news sources tend not to start "RACIST thugs have been scrawling foul and offensive graffiti in Padgate." especially as within the article it appears its simply got the wording from the far left (and just as violent UAF), " Anti-racism campaigners Unite Against Fascism have descibed the group as racist nazi thugs." That "political" seems very problematic to me. Many groups or organisations have "Political" objectives, we do not describe them as a political movement or group. BritishWatcher (talk) 16:51, 25 July 2010 (UTC)

Greenpeace comes to mind whos opening sentence just says : "Greenpeace is a non-governmental environmental organization" BritishWatcher (talk) 16:53, 25 July 2010 (UTC)

this however [[15]] is a better source, and words it in a way that seems to sum it up rather well (which might be a first for the Mail) "quasi-political" So the new text would read "an English far-right quasi-political street movement". With the ref added.Slatersteven (talk) 16:56, 25 July 2010 (UTC)

(edit conflict)Political in the lead is an obvious grammatical tautology - the needless repetition of an idea using different words. Right wing is more that adequate to describe their "political-ness" without the unnecessary reinforcement provided by adding "political". Leaky Caldron 17:04, 25 July 2010 (UTC)

I agree. I think right wing is enough and we should avoid mentioning the "political" bit which is problematic. I see from their site they describe themselves as a "Movement" so we should definitely stick with using the word movement rather than organisation in the first sentence, i am ok with "street movement" although some may question if that is accurate considering much of their activity is conducted online as they organise the street protests. BritishWatcher (talk) 17:08, 25 July 2010 (UTC)

I am not sure its quite that black and white. They appear to have some political potential, and perhaps asperations. But they appear to be more about the thugery. Essentialy a right wing rent a mob not dissimilar (and perhaps thats the point of Searchlights concearn about A "street army") to the left wing rent a mobs that bus around to any rally where they might get to throw chairs thur the windows off the local MankDonalds (at the saem time inflating thier apparent support). No more of a political gruop then the ALF, but also no less.Slatersteven (talk) 17:18, 25 July 2010 (UTC)

The fact we describe it as right wing takes away the need to mention "political" because we assigning it a political ideology already. My preference is something like: "EDL is an English far right movement formed in 2009 to oppose what it considers as the spread of Islamism, Sharia law and Islamic extremism in England"" BritishWatcher (talk) 17:27, 25 July 2010 (UTC)

If mentioning political is so important then i would support the above with the addition of political before movement. BritishWatcher (talk) 17:29, 25 July 2010 (UTC)

In the absence of a mainstream press reference to "political" I am happy to accept "an English far-right quasi-political street movement". With the ref added per slater suggestion. If we find a mainstream reference to political then the case can be made for dropping quasi at that time. --Snowded ^TALK 18:21, 25 July 2010 (UTC)

"new non-political social movement".

To my previous topic, untrue description of the organisation, it has been stressed by many that emphasis is given to "reliable sources".

I give a reliable source.
A Parliament UK publication. http://www.publications.parliament.uk/pa/cm/cmedm/91102e01.htm

House of Commons, Monday 2 November 2009 Notices of Motions for which no days have been fixed (‘Early Day Motions’)

Please look at the item no: 2182 ENGLISH DEFENCE LEAGUE Dated: 28:10:09

I quote verbatim,

Mr Marsha Singh Peter Bottomley Mr David Drew John Hemming Mr Andrew Dismore Jeremy Corbyn Mrs Ann Cryer

That this House notes with concern the activities of the English Defence League (EDL), which is trying to spread fear, violence and hatred against the Muslim community; further notes that, in the light of previous EDL demonstrations, the proposed demonstration in West Yorkshire is likely to threaten race relations and community cohesion especially in a region that has in the past been blighted by riots inspired by racism; and calls on the relevant Government departments to come together to investigate and if necessary quash this new non-political social movement.

Please note the last four words as recorded by members of the parliament, new non-political social movement. They have NOT defined it as a far right nor a political organisation. And there has been no changes to the contrary.

The most approprite description should be thus: new non-political social movement with reference to this Early Day Motion. Wikipedia, as I understand, holds up the facts. Not an authors interpretation.

I request, on the basis of this reliable source that the description be changed.
Awmyth (talk) 18:17, 25 July 2010 (UTC)

Its a bank bench motion so its not a reliable third party source. --Snowded ^TALK 18:19, 25 July 2010 (UTC)

That I find is unacceptable.
It is a published parliamentary document written by Members of the Parliament UK.
Am I to believe that Wikipedia refuses to accept the words of the UK parliament as a reliable document?
If you are, that will be interesting news.
Awmyth (talk) 18:30, 25 July 2010 (UTC)

Its not law, not the offical view of parliment, its the view of those making the motion (in the same way that my views are mine not wikipedias, not matter that they are published here). Now if the early day motion passed that would be a different matter.Slatersteven (talk) 18:33, 25 July 2010 (UTC)

and its by just 7 out of 650 MPs. BritishWatcher (talk) 18:36, 25 July 2010 (UTC)

Agreed, but it has a place in the articel though.Slatersteven (talk) 18:22, 25 July 2010 (UTC)

It aint signed by enough MPs to be notable. BritishWatcher (talk) 18:25, 25 July 2010 (UTC)

Certainly not a reliable source for how we describe the movement in the introduction. I dont like using the term political in the first sentence but id oppose saying "Non-political" which is just as pointless. Typical of our political masters to be wasting their time on such an EDM instead of addressing some of the genuine concerns the thugs in the EDL have about the islamist threat. BritishWatcher (talk) 18:24, 25 July 2010 (UTC)

Replying to Britishwatcher:

Are you saying you decide on the opening description and then look for reference from "reliable sources"? That is blatant bias.

You have quoted two refernces 1 and 2 which are a BBC journalist report. ONE person. Whose beliefs and motivation will never be cross-examined. Yet you claim, SEVEN MPs decision is unreliable.

Your personal opinion of the "EDL thugs" is not a reliable source.
Awmyth (talk) 18:42, 25 July 2010 (UTC)

Fortunately we have several reliable sources which say they are thugs so we don't need to rely on BWs opinion. I'll leave a welcome notice on your talk page, you need to read up on some wikipedia processes. Please also indent your comments - it makes it easier to read. I have done it for you to provide an example --Snowded ^TALK 18:45, 25 July 2010 (UTC)

Here is a link to a story in the Yorkshire Evening Post. Since it was an early day motion, it is unlikely that there will be any vote and it is therefore marginally relevant to the article. However the article does not pick up on the fact that EDL is described as "non-political". Using the choice of words used in the resolution to conclude that Marsha Singh, Peter Bottomley and others consider them non-political is original research. We would need a source explaining what they meant. Do they mean for example that it has no formal connection with any political party, or do they mean that freedom of religion and immigration are not political issues? TFD (talk) 18:54, 25 July 2010 (UTC)

I do view them as thugs although i agree with their concerns about the islamification of Europe. I am not suggesting that thugs be put it the introduction so i do not need sources. 7 MPs opinions do not overrule reliable news sources. Theres no way your proposed wording will be accepted, lets focus on the above section where some progress seemed to be getting made. BritishWatcher (talk) 18:56, 25 July 2010 (UTC)

Good. The sooner a decision is made, the sooner i can take it to arbitration. I can also draw the attention of the public how Wikipedia decides on the contents and then hunts around for "reliable sources". And will also highlight how the actions and words of UK MPs are considered by Wikipedia as "political masters to be wasting their time". Thanks, you guys have been very informative. Awmyth (talk) 19:08, 25 July 2010 (UTC)

I don't think you will get agreement to mediation on that one but there are various ways that you can try and get other editors involved - however you do really need to read up on the criteria for inclusion of material in Wikipedia and the nature of third party reliable sources. I look forward to reading your views about the wikipedia in the national press. --Snowded ^TALK 19:13, 25 July 2010 (UTC)

Those are my views not the view of wikipedia or others here. With the exception of making comments on this talk page i have played no role in writing the article. An EDM of 7 MPs is not even notable enough to be mentioned in the article itself, let alone use their description in the introduction. BritishWatcher (talk) 19:14, 25 July 2010 (UTC)

At the end of the say we can only use RS, otherwise think of what would happen to this page. There would be a revert every 5 minutes as each person who 'KNOWS THE TRUTH!' insertes theri version.Slatersteven (talk) 19:36, 25 July 2010 (UTC)

POV tag

Any reasons for the tag addition? --Snowded ^TALK 19:06, 25 July 2010 (UTC)

I'm obviously not a party to the ongoing discussion, but I noticed the many posts on this talk page recently, and by a cursory reading it occurred to me that there was a content dispute which warranted (or would benefit from) outside input. If all parties are happy doing without the tag, then by all means, it shouldn't be there. __meco (talk) 19:10, 25 July 2010 (UTC)

(edit conflict) Oops, hadn't seen this. I've just removed it - the impression I have is that apart from one editor, the rest of us (well, the rest of you) are discussing one or two words. {{POV}} really didn't seem appropriate. TFOWR 19:17, 25 July 2010 (UTC)

I would certainly welcome an outside input. I am a member of the EDL. I am also a doctor by profession, of indian origin and a hindu. Not the usual far-right thug and/or a football hooligan. I debated long and hard with myself before i joined. I will take objection to being called a far-right. There may be members from far right, just like they are in all walks of life. But Wikipedia cannot generalise the whole organisation as far-right and I will try my best to debate this point, for I find this hostility of some editors towards a logical change unreasonable. Awmyth (talk) 19:25, 25 July 2010 (UTC)

Wikipedia can't do anything but cite other sources. It's not for us to insert our own opinion about the EDL - we have to report what sources say. You'd presumably want to say that the EDL are not a far-right organisation. I'd definitely like to say things that aren't in this article. But we're both constrained by what sources say. TFOWR 19:31, 25 July 2010 (UTC)

But we can say that "X has said Y" which in this case may be the answer.Slatersteven (talk) 19:34, 25 July 2010 (UTC)

The EDL claims are legitimate material if they are listed as claims not objective fact. --Snowded ^TALK 19:35, 25 July 2010 (UTC)

So far, Wikipedia has confirmed that it will pick and choose the sources to suit their opinion. The editors show an incomprehensible need to keep the words "far right" in the opening sentence. The 7 MPs who tabled the motion themselves have described it as a non-political and social organisation. I am yet to find a refernce that superceded the reliability of this source. The persistent resistance to make the change shows an underlying bias. Awmyth (talk) 19:41, 25 July 2010 (UTC)

Some of us above are supporting the removal of "political" from the introduction. "Organisation" has already been changed to say movement. People are prepared to support and accept changes, but in the case of "far right" the media often describe it as such and we have to go by the reliable media sources on this. BritishWatcher (talk) 19:48, 25 July 2010 (UTC)

Wikipedia has not said anything. The nature of reliable third party sources has been explained to you, if you want to change the content you need to find some. The fact that you don't like it, and that the article does not convey EDL's claimed position is irrelevant. Please also address content issues rather than making allegations about contributors. --Snowded ^TALK 19:48, 25 July 2010 (UTC)

I edited the description this morning - with my reasoning. It was reverted back and I was issued a warning. I brought back documentary evidence which you refute. But others will not. What you now argue is the degree of reliability of sources. That is debatable. And needs an outside arbitration. It is Wikipedia's collective responsibility to publish a fair and unbiased information. Everything an editor says or writes on this page, Wikipedia will always be accountable for it. I suggest you discuss this with the management.86.139.147.223 (talk) 20:01, 25 July 2010 (UTC)

I notice how several editors refer very clinically to "the media" and I think that is unfortunate because it promulgates the notion that "the media" are neutral as long as they fall within the realm of reliable sources by Wikipedia's definition. Most mass media will have a bias to support the established national perception of the domestic political landscape and side with the incumbent power structure when choosing angles and phraseology to countenance a rogue grassroots movement such as the EDL appears to be to this Norwegian. If we are truly neutral as Wikipedia editors and do not overtly or otherwise seek to function as an extension of the mainstream media's default front against socially or politically potentially destabilizing or unpredictable movements, then this perspective should be acknowledged. Such an acknowledgment would open for a discussion of how neutral for instance the major British newspapers are when covering a movement of such a nature as the EDL. Would perhaps looking to how non-British publications describe the situation, or which terms and phrases they use, be useful to help establish a non-partisan vocabulary for our article to characterize the EDL? __meco (talk) 20:10, 25 July 2010 (UTC)

meco, your observation that "most mass media will have a bias" is, in my opinion, true, however we are here to report how the news is seen by reliable sources, i.e., the mainstream media. If you are unhappy with their reporting then your course of action is to complain to and about them. Once you have successfully changed the consensus view of MSM, then it will be reflected here. However, this is not the place to correct media bias. If you believe that the role of Wikipedia is to do this, then you should try to change policy rather than argue here. TFD (talk) 05:58, 26 July 2010 (UTC)

I am not arguing against using the mainstream media, nor am I arguing to change Wikipedia's guidelines on the use of sources. I am only encouraging that a critical mindset be employed and that ample consideration be given to which mainstream media outlets to use to support certain angles of perception or when chosing a certain vocabulary to be considered neutral. Specifically I encourage stepping back for a moment from the perspective of the immediate culture where the controversy is taking place and see if maybe more uninvolved media outlets (such as those in another country or continent) will suggest a different yardstick for what we should consider neutral language and descriptions, and that doing so might be what is needed to dissolve some of the content disputes. This is obviously a general advice that isn't limited to the current article and the present dispute. Applied to this discussion, however, my specific advice is to try and assess some articles about the EDL that aren't from the British media. __meco (talk) 06:41, 26 July 2010 (UTC)

And I would have no oibjection to putting in the artciel taht X,Y,and Z have said that the edl ia a non-political organisation. I would also susgest that we put the 'Accused of being' caveat in front of far right.Slatersteven (talk) 19:49, 25 July 2010 (UTC).Slatersteven

Adding in something to the body that says XZ etc makes sense. However the addition of "accused" is not justified - that has been established over multiple articles, We go with the statement given by the reliable sources. --Snowded ^TALK 19:54, 25 July 2010 (UTC)

Agreed, no point in putting something before Far right. How about if we replaced " although the EDL's political direction is being debated within the group" with a quote from them rejecting they are far right? that might help balance the first paragraph and address concerns about the use of far right. BritishWatcher (talk) 19:57, 25 July 2010 (UTC)

Obviously if the current dispute seems to one of the parties to be at an impasse, that is certainly sufficient to call for outside opinions. This can be done with the {{POV}} template which I did, and I have explained why I did it. Now, several editors assure me that the current discussion is a very minor quibble and that it has more or less sorted itself out. If that is an inappropriate description of the present state of discourse then I'd say that the banner would be appropriately employed. Of course, there are also other tools available to assist a consensus to emerge. A Request for Comments would also appear to be suitable in this situation, that is, if some involved parties believe outside intervention is called for. __meco (talk) 19:48, 25 July 2010 (UTC)

I would urge against an RFC, which tends to mean we wait for days in the hope someone replies but on plenty of occasions there is little feedback. I think we can resolve the situation with the first sentence ourselves here. BritishWatcher (talk) 19:54, 25 July 2010 (UTC)

I thought we had agreed it ...--Snowded ^TALK 19:59, 25 July 2010 (UTC)

No, I haven't. You all have, and I perceive a distinct bias. Your suggestions are not acceptable by me. There has to be an external arbitration.86.139.147.223 (talk) 20:05, 25 July 2010 (UTC)

I agree that RFCs often take a long time, making for a very drawn-out discussion. But that it takes time may not necessarily be so bad. And sometimes the response isn't very high either. I think it is a tool with some usefulness though, and if you decide not to use it in the current discussion, it might be applied at the next crossroads. __meco (talk) 20:20, 25 July 2010 (UTC)

The opening description of the British Nationalist Party, an accepted far-right party, does not have the words "far-right"!
Reading this entire discussion page, it is blatantly obvious that numerous comlaints have been made against the use of the words "far-right" in the description of EDL, but the editors have persistently been unexplanably opposed any changes. No consensus has been reached.
Britishwatcher's userpage identity is only a large Union Jack and a slogan "Long live the United Kingdom of Great Britain and Northern Ireland!God save the Queen!".. That is enough indication to suggest that he/she maybe a BNP member or a sympathiser. With the given BNP views of EDL, what that brings to this debate as his/her "own views" may be the BNP's perspective. A bias and an underlying motive to deliberately discredit the EDL cannot be ruled out. Similarly, bias cannot be ruled out in the strong and unexplanable opposition of the other editors to make a change.
It is appropriate that an external arbitration is asked for now and this issue resolved and done with. Awmyth (talk) 04:38, 26 July 2010 (UTC)

You need to learn as a matter of urgency to address content issues and not make accusations against editors. You have failed to follow WP:AGF here and you have also made a personal attack on BW who os not a member of the BNP and would almost certainly be insulted by the accusation. WP:NPA is take seriously on Wikipedia and some admins would consider your comments above enough to give you a short block. If you are unhappy about this discussion then you have a range of options open to you - read up on the material I placed on your site, that will tell you how to get other editors involved. If you want to formally appeal to Arbcom (I don't recommend it but its an option) to get involved that is also explained there. --Snowded ^TALK 07:14, 26 July 2010 (UTC)

I have read the guidelines. I have been a member for a long time. I do not contribute much primarily for the reason the "established editors" bulldoze their views, even if flawed.
Snowded wishes to impose sanctions on me because I have raised valid argument that he/she or indeed a group of editors are unable to steamroll over. It beggars belief that experience editors are quoting the words of journalists from Warrington Guardian and Uxbridge Gazette (linked above by verbal?) local papers! to push for the description of far-right remaining unchanged. But refuses to accept the words of 7MPs when they describe EDL as non-political and social movement on a published parliamentary document. I suggest Snowded as a matter of urgency reads up on the objectives of Wikipedia. To be a factual encyclopedia and not editors' soapbox. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Awmyth (talk • contribs) 11:59, 26 July 2010 (UTC)

It is ill-advised by Awmyth to make general statements about how Wikipedia does things or how "the editors" behave when the target of their frustration is obviously a limited group of people editing this particular article. I don't think Awmyth was out of line for bringing up the observations about Britishwatcher, though. There were no accusations nor any personal attacks made and the speculations are valid as speculations go. That is not inappropriate in the context of an online medium where identities are indistinct and people often do not state which agendas they bring with them. When Awmyth writes: "A bias and an underlying motive to deliberately discredit the EDL cannot be ruled out. Similarly, bias cannot be ruled out in the strong and unexplanable opposition of the other editors to make a change", that is a valid assessment of the landscape in my opinion, although I may not fully share in it. Now, the question becomes: is this something we can act on? Obviously it isn't. But instead of asserting that Awmyth is remiss in affording good faith and rattling disciplinary sanctions I think we should afford ourselves and the circumstances that surrounds us in this artificial environment to acknowledge that this dilemma exists – of not knowing the people whom we are supposed to cooperate with, nor their personal agendas – and validate the observations made by Awmyth without letting that obscure our perceptions of neither Awmyth, Britishwatcher or any of the other editors. Britishwatcher is free to comment on Awmyth's observations, or to ignore them. The rest of us are still responsible for countenancing these two editors on the merits of their actions and what we know for sure about them, and if we need a polite reminder if we overstep this responsibility, then that's what should be issued.

Furthermore, if Awmyth wishes to call an RFC or any of the other arbitration tools available to the Wikipedia community, including calling on the ArbCom, then that is Awmyth's prerogative and cannot be denied. However, I sense that Awmyth (talk · contribs) is unsure either of which measure to pick or how to enter the necessary procedures, and as this user is a relative newcomer some assistance may be welcomed even from someone who doesn't think that calling in any outside help is the best way to go about this dispute. __meco (talk) 08:08, 26 July 2010 (UTC)

I think meco's suggestion is sound. I'm familiar - we're most of us familiar - with many of Wikipedia's norms, but we should have no expectation that any of us know everything, or that all of have the degree of familiarity as others.

Could I suggest the neutral point of view noticeboard? Awmyth could raise their concerns there. This would draw attention to this article, and would attract editors who do not have a strong involvement with this article.

TFOWR 08:28, 26 July 2010 (UTC)

That is obviously one of the routes to take, but Awmyth needs to put in some work into reading the basic protocols etc. I am afraid that I disagree with you on the NPA issue, in a British context an accusation of BNP membership is serious and even the briefest review of BWs edits would have shown what a nonsense that is. --Snowded ^TALK 08:49, 26 July 2010 (UTC)

Just to clarify: I was commenting purely on the RfC suggestion. I agree that editors should not make assumptions about other editors' political beliefs, nor label other editors inappropriately. Explicitly: Snowded: you were correct to notify Awmyth about WP:NPA. Awmyth: please don't refer to other editors apparent political affiliations. TFOWR 09:49, 26 July 2010 (UTC)

Indeed, being labelled as a BNP member is like being labelled as a member of the National Socialist German Workers' Party, that is how strongly many people rightly feel about the dangerous BNP in this country. I actually have far bigger problems with the BNP than i do with the EDL. BritishWatcher (talk) 09:08, 26 July 2010 (UTC)

With due respect to what you write _meco, I will say - articles on Wikipedia does not name the editors who have authored or edited it. This anonymity lets the "limited group" of editors never to bear the responsibility of their writings. In such a case Wikipedia has to accept the generalised responsibility for the actions of all their editors. Perhaps many editors should learn as a matter of urgency what their obligations are to wikipedia.Awmyth (talk) 12:21, 26 July 2010 (UTC)

Editors are - and must be - attributed for copyright reasons. TFOWR 12:28, 26 July 2010 (UTC)

Just to clarify my position as it has been questioned, i do not support nor have i ever supported or been a member of the British National Party. I have made equally negative comments about the BNP on their talk page when debating if the BNP are fascist or not. If you think only the 2% of the population who vote BNP are proud to be British, support the United Kingdom and the Queen then you are mistaken. It is pretty sad that in todays society it is an assumption many would make when seeing the flag and i even attempted to counter it once by having on my userpage i was proud not to support the BNP but that really should not be needed.

I actually share some of the concerns of both the BNP and EDL, I just happen to think BNPs policies would destroy this country faster than our present left wing establishment and that the EDL's actions are doing more to damage community cohesion than the small number of muslim extremists they formed to protest against, not to mention the huge cost to the taxpayer and waste of resources having to police these regular UAF (a far left group i also condemn)- EDL clashes.

As i do not edit the article, my views on these sorts of matters have a limited impact anyway. It comes down to what the sources say which is why i accept the introduction should say the EDL is far right but at the same time disagree with saying its "political". BritishWatcher (talk) 08:51, 26 July 2010 (UTC)

We have BW's word only. We cannot know where his/her sympathies truly lie. We can only judge an editors motives based on what is apparent and his/her words and actions. In this case, the absolute obstinacy to hold on to the words "far-right" in the description of EDL is unexplanable. Significantly when these words have NOT been used to open the article on BNP. There is a blatant discripency here. Besides BW admits he does not edit this article, I do not understand why he/she is so keen on influencing the decision.
I have not made any allegations of anyone's membership to a political party. I have simply brought to notice that based on BW's inflexible stance and the manner in which he has introduced himself, an underlying bias cannot be ruled out.
I also find it hypocritical that anyone can be upset for being aligned with BNP, a recognised far-right political party but has no hesitation to generalise all members of EDL as "far-right".Awmyth (talk) 11:42, 26 July 2010 (UTC)

Lets stop the soapboxing and sniping and get back on to the subject of improving the articel.Slatersteven (talk) 11:48, 26 July 2010 (UTC)

Soapboxing and sniping would not have been necessary had their been an unbiased and logical discussion. It does not take long to revert back to changes I have requested and add on the description of the MPs with reference. I can do it, but it will lead to aggravated editing and more written warnings. Awmyth (talk) 12:03, 26 July 2010 (UTC)

Awmyth, please take a hint and stop accusing editors of bias. It seems pretty clear that BW is not a member of the BNP, and it is clearly not WP:CIVIL to carry on making insinuations when the editor in question has denied it. I find it confusing that you openly say you are a member of the EDL but find it appropriate to accuse editors of unknown political affiliation of WP:COI. --FormerIP (talk) 12:10, 26 July 2010 (UTC)

Awmyth if you don't stop accusing editors of bias then I for one am going to make a formal complain about your behaviour. Address content issues, respect other editors --Snowded ^TALK 12:37, 26 July 2010 (UTC)

Snowded, please go ahead and complain, let us have someone decide which bit of my writing is unacceptable. May I draw your attention to what _meco has written above in response to your threat of sanctions. Not everyone it seems agree with you.
Do complain, just do not keep threatening with sanctions.Awmyth (talk) 13:02, 26 July 2010 (UTC)

Incidentally, it does not seem to me that the Early Day Motion mentioned is not a good source for the statement that the EDL are non-political. Given that their main activity is public demonstrations, this would be a very bold statement, and would therefore need very strong sourcing. The Early Day Motion probably has this wording because otherwise it would not be considered suitable to be tabled (on the basis that Parliament should not be used for the purpose of censuring political dissent). In other words, I think it is likely that the MP who drafted the Motion included the term "non-political" as a white lie in order to get it past House of Commons officials. We should not take it seriously. --FormerIP (talk) 12:15, 26 July 2010 (UTC)

I suspect you're quite right - no way to prove it, however. Jeremy Corbyn in particular would likely describe the EDL in much less flattering terms privately. TFOWR 12:18, 26 July 2010 (UTC)

No way to prove it, but I think it is enough for us to disregard the source (it's a primary source), when we have plenty of other sources on the same question. --FormerIP (talk) 12:21, 26 July 2010 (UTC)

Agreed - definitely. TFOWR 12:50, 26 July 2010 (UTC)

It's a good enough source for the views of those MPs, if it's worth noting. Bur surely the bigger point is that we can't just pull out one source and use that to build a definitive text, eg to say that the group is or isn't "political", whatever that means anyway - it's a vague phrase, and one that different sources will mean different things by when they use it - or is or isn't "far right"? Far too much cherry-picking like that goes on across this place. We need to look at the totality of sources, and, especially for the intro, provide a concise and clear overview. As noted above the broad consensus is far right, or at the very least right-wing. The "political" point is a red herring as far as I can see, and I don't see a need to say much about it either way. The new "quasi-political" wording seems a bit clumsy, with no offence intended. And, again, it seems to come from only one source, and a passing mention within it at that. N-HH talk/edits 13:00, 26 July 2010 (UTC)

So are you saying that the word 'political' has no place in the lead?Slatersteven (talk) 13:09, 26 July 2010 (UTC)

Personally, I'd say it's redundant, if we use the (cited) term "far right". "Far right" implies political. TFOWR 13:17, 26 July 2010 (UTC)

Totally agree. It is a clumsy attempt to reinforce a position which is already fully qualified by the description "right wing". It is a grammatically redundant adjective that provides a misleading veneer of structure, organisation and direction to this particular organisation. Leaky Caldron 13:34, 26 July 2010 (UTC)

Wherever this discussion ends up, can I suggest that no-one reintroduce "quasi-political". --FormerIP (talk) 14:07, 26 July 2010 (UTC)

OK so there is no possiibity of compromise, User Verbal insits (against consensus) that we include the owrd political. Almost everyone else seems to agree it shouold not be there. Where do we go from here.Slatersteven (talk) 14:14, 26 July 2010 (UTC)

I don't see that there's very much to disagree about. As has been noted by others, "politcal" doesn't make a great deal of difference on way or the other since we already say "right wing". I would suggest that having "political" in there would give slight help to a reader who has no idea what the EDL is. Yes, it is sort of implied by right wing, but something can be right wing without being primarily a political phenomenon (for example, Patrick Moore). So saying "political" or "protest movement" or something similar in the first sentence would be good. Otherwise we have "far-right street movement", which just leads the reader to wonder what one of those is (IMO). That's just on a for-what-its-worth basis, and I can certainly live without "political".

Also, if we do end up keeping political, it does not require so many cites. --FormerIP (talk) 14:30, 26 July 2010 (UTC)

As only two of the source say they are political no.Slatersteven (talk) 14:41, 26 July 2010 (UTC)

I cannot believe I am reading these comments here.
First BW writes about 7UK MPs tabling an EDM "political masters to be wasting their time".
And now a criticism of the same MPs of having "drafted the Motion included the term "non-political" as a white lie....Awmyth (talk) 13:12, 26 July 2010 (UTC)

I'm not sure what to make of your disbelief, Awmyth. --FormerIP (talk) 14:07, 26 July 2010 (UTC)

It is clear that the dispute is not over so I move the the tag is re-instated untill the dispute is resolved.Slatersteven (talk) 14:28, 26 July 2010 (UTC)

I have reverted to the last consensus version. Verbal, will you please outline the case for political here - its not clear from the sources and I am not happy about using the two local press reports. --Snowded ^TALK 14:30, 26 July 2010 (UTC)

On the basis that there's clearly some edit warring going on, I have to agree with the re-insertion of the {{POV}} tag. Verbal: stop, discuss. There's no WP:DEADLINE for this. TFOWR 14:35, 26 July 2010 (UTC)

Cluttered section

I suggest that the Activities section is too long and appears cluttered and is discouraging readers in its current state. I haven't read it, merely perused it with respect to layout and structure. Would a bullet point list or a table be a useful inclusion for this section? __meco (talk) 19:24, 25 July 2010 (UTC)

Fully agree with you there - it would be good to tighten it up --Snowded ^TALK 19:34, 25 July 2010 (UTC)

Agreed BritishWatcher (talk) 19:39, 25 July 2010 (UTC)

It's just a long list now more or less. Bullet-pointing it would at leats formalise that, though off the top of my head, I'm not sure that's approved by the style police. The alternative, to bring it into a more coherent, analytical structure would require a lot of work though ... N-HH talk/edits 13:03, 26 July 2010 (UTC)

I think the thing to do is not to bullet it, but to summarise it (the problem being that this was fine when the EDL had only done one or two demos, but now we ahve far too much detail). --FormerIP (talk) 13:54, 26 July 2010 (UTC)

WP:NPOVN

I've posted at the neutral point-of-view noticeboard, inviting non-involved editors to consider the issue discussed above. I'd suggest that we let them come here and comment, rather than piling over there to continue our arguments at a new venue ;-) TFOWR 12:52, 26 July 2010 (UTC)

You should probably invite uninvolved editors over here, then, or they may just post over there. --FormerIP (talk) 12:56, 26 July 2010 (UTC)

Oops, thought I had. I've amended it to steer editors to this talk page. TFOWR 12:59, 26 July 2010 (UTC)

The term far right is a generally accepted term used to describe political parties, groups and individuals that are linked by ideology, history and personal relationships. Newspapers and experts on the far right have chosen to include the EDL in this group, although they reject the label. I see no reason to depart from the description used in reliable sources. TFD (talk) 14:12, 26 July 2010 (UTC)

Indeed, it is a huge waste of time to go over this again. We should stop indulging those that want to edit against our core policies. This question has been asked and answered already. Verbal chat 14:15, 26 July 2010 (UTC)

Looking at the sources there is no doubt they are descibed as a far-right organization. Could I suggest that the lede could be changed to something along the lines of, "The English Defence League (EDL) is an English single-issue political street movement formed in 2009 and described as a far-right organization by the mainstream British media." perhaps this would solve the problem of them not actually self identifying as far right. To let you all know, I had no idea who they were before coming here and still don't have any interest other than making this suggestion. Jack 1314 (talk) 14:36, 26 July 2010 (UTC)

The sources say they are far right it is not correct to say that are "described" as such. Weasel words, we work from sources. --Snowded ^TALK 14:39, 26 July 2010 (UTC)

Your probably right in that it would be using weasly words. Here was me thinking I could come in with my brilliant idea and and make everone happy. ;) Jack 1314 (talk) 14:54, 26 July 2010 (UTC)

That argument is simply throwing common sense out the window. I see nothing weasely about Jack 1314's proposed text. Attributing a characterization when that characterization is obviously controversial is much better than using that characterization with the "is of identity" as Alfred Korzybski would have termed it. "We work from sources" is true, but it is not supposed to be interpreted at an invitation to conceal controveries. __meco (talk) 15:40, 26 July 2010 (UTC)

As has been popinted out this is not new, or isolated to this page the BNP page regualry has the same debate for the same reason. If the 'rule'is realxed here it makes it easier to challenge it there.Slatersteven (talk) 15:43, 26 July 2010 (UTC)

Could you be explicit about which rule or practice you are referring to? _-meco (talk) 15:48, 26 July 2010 (UTC)

I'd like to update my reference for the Dudley demonstration where the Hindu Temple was attacked during a protest. The link I posted was simply to a comment about an article saying trouble had occured. I would simply like the current reference for the attack on the Temple to be replaced with the one below or to have this added to it.

This reference: http://www.stourbridgenews.co.uk/news/8283497.EDL_protest_bill_tops_half_a_million_pounds/ contains an informative quote from West Midlands Police: “Amongst the premises attacked were residential homes around Alexandra Street, cars parked in roads surrounding Stafford Street, restaurants on Wolverhampton Street and the Hindu Temple. “Many of these locations saw windows smashed, and damage caused to fencing. A couple of vehicles were damaged as they were targeted whilst being driven through the town.” The main point is that a Hindu Temple is being smashed up by a group that claims to be anti-Islamism. Such violent activity, arrests and ungentlemanly conduct, shall we say, need to be addressed by a group that poses important political questions but has been steered towards the wrong crowd. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Omar418 (talk • contribs) 05:14, 27 July 2010 (UTC)

The article was fully protected yesterday. Any edits through the protection would need to be made only after a clear consensus emerged. If there's consensus for your proposed change I can make the edit on your behalf. I would want to see that the proposed change was complete non-controversial first, however.

Obviously, if anyone spots any vandalism - real vandalism - that pre-dated the protection I'll gladly remove it. But changes to the article will need a clear consensus. TFOWR 07:02, 27 July 2010 (UTC)

Looks like a much better source, can not see any problem with those being changed. BritishWatcher (talk) 08:34, 27 July 2010 (UTC)

I would argue against sourcing anything from local papers in such a controversial article. Even when they're occasionally reliable, not only are they potentially primary sources but inclusion is likely to give local details undue weight. AJRG (talk) 09:19, 27 July 2010 (UTC)

It is a good source in that it quotes the local police and council on the attack on the Hindu Temple. I wouldn't want to quote the UAF or other political sources and this is the nearest to local news about the protest that informs on an important and violent incident. --Omar418 (talk) 10:43, 27 July 2010 (UTC)

POV twaddle

This article is utter rubbish. Like the BNP article, written as an attack by people who oppose the group. Off2riorob (talk) 14:42, 26 July 2010 (UTC)

Given that the article is based on no less than 66 apparently reliable sources, would you like to expand on that assertion? Ghmyrtle (talk) 14:50, 26 July 2010 (UTC)

Rob has quite a point. Second paragraph, just for starters, has all sorts of weaselly language. Then we have the "links to the BNP" section which consists of the fact that their website was built by a BNP activist and the fact that the BNP has washed their hands of them. I'd barely constitute the first as a link to the BNP and the second definitely isn't. The activities section is full of weaselly words and various other issues (one sentence broaches WP:FUTURE I think) --Errant Tmorton166^(Talk) 15:05, 26 July 2010 (UTC)

Rob, I'm afraid I disagree with you about both this page and the BNP page. Neither the EDL or the BNP are reliable sources, and we stick to what the preponderance of RS say about the groups. Verbal chat 15:52, 26 July 2010 (UTC)

Thank you Off2riorob. That is precisely what this is. I am grateful that this has now been agreed by one experienced editor. Awmyth (talk) 15:57, 26 July 2010 (UTC)

Well would either the experienced or the inexperienced editor like to come up with a reliable source which supports their assertions? Without that the argument is, well lets find a word, how about twaddle? --Snowded ^TALK 16:01, 26 July 2010 (UTC)

I don't need a source to know that people that don't like the BNP and the EDL are writing these articles. Off2riorob (talk) 16:53, 26 July 2010 (UTC)

Given the nature of the BNP and the EDL, that's going to be hard to avoid, though. --FormerIP (talk) 16:56, 26 July 2010 (UTC)

(ec) Or for that matter than BNP and EDL apologists are editing it. Whats surprising about that? Now, how about that reference? --Snowded ^TALK 16:57, 26 July 2010 (UTC)

Correction: EDL apologists are being prevented from editing. And have been threatened with sanctions.
Please do not pretend there is no refence. I have submitted a credible evidence. But bizarre as it seem, the editors insist that UK MPs have lied so is non-admissable. Why cannot the editors also refer to the Parliamentary document to document how the UK MPs have described the group. It is becoming obvious that a small group of editors are intent to describe the group as far-right political and will only accept reference, as obscure as local newspapers of unknown intent.Awmyth (talk) 17:26, 26 July 2010 (UTC)

(demonstrating patience) No one is prevented from editing if they come up with properly referenced material. If you think you have done this and other editors are preventing it then you have appeal mechanisms which have been pointed out. Why not take them if you feel strongly about it? --Snowded ^TALK 17:32, 26 July 2010 (UTC)

Users seem to think that they edit is some kind of invisible shield and that their POV is invisible, hilarious. Hard to aviod, yes agreed, good faith users can help by not editing an article they have no chance at all of editing to NPOV.Off2riorob (talk) 16:53, 26 July 2010 (UTC)

Rob, we've all got a POV. Yours just seems to be that you think the article should be slightly nicer to these organisations than some other editors do. It's fine for you to disagree, but get down off that high horse, cos I can see your knickers ;'). --FormerIP (talk) 17:02, 26 July 2010 (UTC)

You naughty boy, keep your eyes off my knickers.. This article is an attack written and protected by users that oppose the group. the BNP article is the same. It is indisputable, there are a few users involved in similar edit patterns at both articles. Off2riorob (talk) 17:05, 26 July 2010 (UTC)

Well lets just assume that people who feel strongly about subjects tend to edit pages related to that interest shall we - its the nature of Wikipedia. The way any issues are overcome is by relying on third party sources. So I ask you again, and will continue to ask - where is your third party reliable source which says either the BNP or EDL are not far right organisations? Or in other words stop sounding off and come up with some evidence. --Snowded ^TALK 17:09, 26 July 2010 (UTC)

Its such assumptions of general POV editing that is used to support POV editing, if you have a strong dislike of a group why don't you go edit an article you can hope to opine in an NPOV manner and allow a decent educational neutral article to be created. instead of a reflection of your dislike of the group. Off2riorob (talk)

Reference please Off2rio, reference --Snowded ^TALK 17:16, 26 July 2010 (UTC)

I don't need a reference to point to a huge elephant. Off2riorob (talk) 17:17, 26 July 2010 (UTC)

You do need a reference if you want to say that either are not far right and I'm still waiting. --Snowded ^TALK 17:24, 26 July 2010 (UTC)

Here. A Parliament UK publication. http://www.publications.parliament.uk/pa/cm/cmedm/91102e01.htm. Unlike local news reporters, these are the people who decides and implements policies that everyone including the UK police forces have to follow.
It is obvious you are waiting for a reference that you prefer. Persistent objections to use this reference can only be concluded as extreme bias.Awmyth (talk) 17:37, 26 July 2010 (UTC)

Thanks. Now I will. this comment of yours gives me the premise to take it to arbitration. I would like the Arbcom to confirm that a Parliamentary document is considered an unreliable source on Wikipedia.Awmyth (talk) 17:46, 26 July 2010 (UTC)

Reference does not say they are not right wing, all the national press do. Try again (for the reference) and I look forward to you taking this to Arbcom --Snowded ^TALK 17:44, 26 July 2010 (UTC)

Snowded. Why did you delete your comment that I just responded to? The one that started with this parenthesis (showing patience)...That is unacceptable behaviour of an editor.
The MPs have been very specific. DOES NOT call them RIGHT WING / FAR RIGHT either. Your argument is becoming more and more ridiculous.Awmyth (talk) 17:53, 26 July 2010 (UTC)

Ignore my comment about deletion. I see you have moved it upwards. It does break the sequence of our conversation.Awmyth (talk) 18:01, 26 July 2010 (UTC)

I don't think I moved it, its other comments coming in. The MPs don't call them all sorts of things, you need an authoritative source which says that they are not right wing to counter those which say they are. --Snowded ^TALK 18:05, 26 July 2010 (UTC)

I would imagine it would be extremely difficult to find anyone who doesn't have a POV on articles such as this. I'm an SNP supporter, should I demand anyone with a dislike for them not edit or discuss the SNP article? I wouldn't be permitted to do that, but it would be appropriate to ask for good sources for any edit of the article. Jack 1314 (talk) 17:27, 26 July 2010 (UTC)

Reply to user Snowed..You fail to see the huge elephant, hilarious. It is irrelevant to me what this group are, it is opinionated editors with a clear strong dislike of this group supporting it as an attack article that I have issues with. Off2riorob (talk) 17:38, 26 July 2010 (UTC)

I can see various pachyderms and sundry other flora and fauna, what I can't see is a single third party reliable source to back up your position. Still waiting. --Snowded ^TALK 17:47, 26 July 2010 (UTC)

I'm a definite non-fan of attack articles, so I have quite a lot of sympathy for Off2riorob's position here. Equally, an organisation with the clear potential to become a street army creates considerable anxiety, and that anxiety is being reflected in the newspaper coverage. AJRG (talk) 17:59, 26 July 2010 (UTC)

Well in the case of the BNP (which Off2Rio is also concerned about) the Wikipedia article is not as condemnatory as every mainstream political party and newspaper so I don't think it can be considered an attack article, it just reflects what is said in the sources. Ditto here. Its more than proper for us to reference the EDLs official position by way of balance, but the lede reflects the sources --Snowded ^TALK 18:05, 26 July 2010 (UTC)

• OK, corner-situated, hard-to-see pachyderms aside, how do we take this forward? TFOWR 18:02, 26 July 2010 (UTC)

Can they be pink with blue spots? Joking aside I don't think we can and it should probably stop. Off2rio has taken this position on right wing articles for some time, generally against consensus. Ditto on some of the British Isles disputes. My original point (which I have probably repeated for too long) is that we have to fall back to references. General POV accusations without evidence of editing other than in accordance with policy is I think disruptive, but its part of life here. I'll go and cook a meal, pour a shot of Penderyn and watch Star Treck on Sky. --Snowded ^TALK 18:16, 26 July 2010 (UTC)

"It is irrelevant to me what this group are, it is opinionated editors with a clear strong dislike of this group supporting it as an attack article..." Spot on Off2riorob. This confirms and vindicates what I have written so far.
I will need to read up how to refer this to ArbCom. Any help will be surely appreciated.Awmyth (talk) 18:10, 26 July 2010 (UTC)

Can/will anyone here please give me the link to the page where I can initiate an ArbCom? I am sorry, I haven't done it before and I am unable to find how to start. Been going round and round through help pages. Thanks in advance.Awmyth (talk) 10:14, 27 July 2010 (UTC)

WP:RFAR but as it says, its the last stage in dispute resolution and it will not deal with content issues. I suggest you don;t waste your time and instead read up on dispute resolution (linked from the reference) --Snowded ^TALK 10:19, 27 July 2010 (UTC)

Before we go there, we might try raising the bar on acceptable references to a strong WP:RS standard. Statements sourced only from local papers should be removed as WP:UNDUE. AJRG (talk) 18:15, 26 July 2010 (UTC)

Agree with that, national press only --Snowded ^TALK 18:17, 26 July 2010 (UTC)

Take my advice Awmth, look out your window and take a deep breath and have a great big belly laugh and then take the article of your watchlist and in a couple of months come back and see the same situation and again point to the huge elephant so as they don't think people can't see it and then again look out of your window and see that due to such POV attack additions that readers reject the content as valueless and again take a deep breath and laugh loudly. Off2riorob (talk) 18:21, 26 July 2010 (UTC)

Seriously Rob, given that 100% of reliable secondary sources that expressed a preference are hostile to the EDL, it's hard to see how you think the bias of editors is manifesting itself in the article content. Arguing that we should ignore secondary sources because of an elephant, though, seems to me to go against normal WP practice. --FormerIP (talk) 19:08, 26 July 2010 (UTC)

Seriously a hostile press reported by hostile wikipedia users and seriously rob stop pointing to the elephant, deep breath, ho ho ho (in the manner of father Xmas or Buddha. Off2riorob (talk) 19:43, 26 July 2010 (UTC)

The most reliable sources manage to report the facts rather than their hostility. Local papers are not reliable for this kind of article. AJRG (talk) 19:20, 26 July 2010 (UTC)

Following WP:V and WP:NPOV we have no choice but to describe the EDL as they are described in reliable sources. If these reliable sources happen to be wrong, there is nothing we can do to correct that but wait until those sources admit they were wrong. That is how WP works. If we disagree with the mainstream consensus view of this or any other subject then we should work to change it, but we cannot do that here. Arbcom btw does not handle content disputes. TFD (talk) 19:40, 26 July 2010 (UTC)

We have no choice apart from attacking them , everyone else is attacking them and I agree...ho ho ho...Off2riorob (talk) 19:44, 26 July 2010 (UTC)

That's the way it's supposed to work, Rob. We also have no choice but to "attack" Harold Shipman and ebola. There's no NPOV position where we are obliged to include things not contained in reliable sources in order to achieve "balance". You can complain on the talk page that the press is hostile if you like, but that's about all you can do.--FormerIP (talk) 19:48, 26 July 2010 (UTC)

AJRG: It depends what you mean by the "most reliable sources". I think in this case, local papers, particularly in small towns, are more likely to give a purely factual account. Whereas if you google "English Defence League" plus the names of the main UK "quality" papers, the first results you get all have an anti-EDL slant. [16], [17], [18], [19]. You won't find any secondary sources with positive things to say about the EDL. I think the thing that some editors just need to come to terms with is that, as far as all of our usable sources are concerned, there are not two sides to this story. --FormerIP (talk) 19:54, 26 July 2010 (UTC)

That is so not the case IP, we are entrusted to use our editorial responsibility and write a decent fair balanced informative write in an NPOV manner. A bunch of users who strongly dislike the group using citations that reflect their POV are never ever going to create something that wikipedia should aspire to, a well written , balanced , neutral informative report and the weak POV excuse that , well, everyone hates them has me looking out of my window and rolling in a great big belly laugh. HO ho ho, look at the size of that elephant in the room and they think no one can see it...ho ho ho...Off2riorob (talk) 20:07, 26 July 2010 (UTC)

Rob, if it is the case that everyone hates them (ie all secondary sources are negative about them) then it is legitimate to have the article reflect that. For our purposes, that is what "fair and balanced" means. If sources painting them in a good light are lacking, then they are lacking and that's all there is to it. --FormerIP (talk) 20:12, 26 July 2010 (UTC)

There's a big, big difference between an article that reports negative things and an attack article. If the tone resembles a tabloid newspaper then it's not encyclopedic enough. AJRG (talk) 20:38, 26 July 2010 (UTC)

Which is one reason why broadsheet sources are preferred along with text books etc. Its those we reflect. --Snowded ^TALK 20:47, 26 July 2010 (UTC)

Think it all depends AJRG. Sometimes an attack piece will be a good source. J'accuse, for example, is an essential source in relation to the Dreyfuss affair. And The Sun is a good source for the opinions of the Sun where they are notable (which they may be). That aside, of course we should select the best sources. --FormerIP (talk) 20:57, 26 July 2010 (UTC)

When I commented I wasn't really talking about the sources. Clearly the majority of sources on this group will be negative - and there is nothing wrong with that per se. My issues (which do not cover the lead; I don't really have a stance on those disputes) is over the fact that the sources are not neutrally reported. There is a difference between negative sources and a critical article; I'd say that a lot more neutral language could be used throughout. --Errant Tmorton166^(Talk) 21:12, 26 July 2010 (UTC)

If you think that, you should prolly bring up specific examples. --FormerIP (talk) 22:58, 26 July 2010 (UTC)

Ahem :) before this got sidtracked into the WP:LEAD dispute I did just that. I'm happy to try and bring a more neutral balance to the article, but I wouldn't want to spark a new edit war. --Errant Tmorton166^(Talk) 23:02, 26 July 2010 (UTC)

Oh for goodness sakes, haven't you heard that the talkpage is crawling with biased editors? You'll have to bring it up at least four times before someone begrudgingly takes any notice...--FormerIP (talk) 23:14, 26 July 2010 (UTC)

In all seriousness, if you care about it start a new section. Understandably, a complaint brought up in the middle of a discussion about something else might go unaddressed. --FormerIP (talk) 23:16, 26 July 2010 (UTC)

In fairness you guys sidetracked our more general criticism of the article :P but I take your point (if a little brusque...). Will make a new section. --Errant Tmorton166^(Talk) 09:01, 27 July 2010 (UTC)

Apologies if that came across as brusque. I meant it tongue in cheek, but probably should have ended with a smiley. --FormerIP (talk) 11:39, 27 July 2010 (UTC)

Please can we get some structure here

OK, sometime yesterday with the exception of our EDL member and Verbal who was away at the time we had an agreement on this version with some ambiguity left over quasi-political or political. I reserved a position then which said that if there were citations that supported political then the quasi could be removed. I restored that consensus a few minutes ago with a request to Verbal to bring his evidence to the talk page. We have now had the nonsense of both political and non-political and the reversion by off2rio who has so far taken no part in this debate and (from the comment above) is back on a hobby horse in respect of other right wing sites.

We need to get some order here. I propose that the version on which we previously reached agreement is restored for the moment. That reads "The English Defence League (EDL) is an English far-right quasi-political street movement[1] formed in 2009". That wording is directly supported by citation. We then open up to an examination of Verbal's evidence for political. The far-right issue has been resolved here and on the BNP page before - we go with the sources and they all say far right. If some editors want to challenge that then they should raise it at the appropriate forum. --Snowded ^TALK 14:55, 26 July 2010 (UTC)

I agree. Except that I would say that if users can find RS that say they are not far right we discuse that label too. I would rather we had a caveat as its an accusation made by oppoents, but if RS say it we must report it.Slatersteven (talk) 15:00, 26 July 2010 (UTC)

Subject to the normal qualification in respect of WP:Weight I agree with qualification. --Snowded ^TALK 15:01, 26 July 2010 (UTC)

1) Considering this is the opening sentence, I would comment firstly that there is no commonly-understood term "street movement". To an uninitiated reader, this could be somnething to do with modern dance. Terms like "protest movement" or, indeed, "political group" would be more helpful to the reader.

2) I'm not sure that "quasi-political" is a possible state of affairs. Something can be "only slightly political", but "quasi-political" would meant that it is almost political but not quite. I can't think of an example of something to which this would apply. A source may have mangled the English language in this case, but we don't need to blindly copy.

3) In general, we do not need to source every single word. I'm not sure how the dispute over "political" first arose, but surely even the EDL would agree that they are political and so I think the dispute may be a bit misguided.

4) As I said above, I think it would be marginally more helpful to the reader to include a term such as "politcal". The opening sentence is in danger of failing to do anything to describe the EDL out of a fear of offending it. --FormerIP (talk) 15:07, 26 July 2010 (UTC)

The debate about political started 9 months ago. It was not in the article lead for several months until reintroduced under a misleading edit summary a few weeks ago. They deny being political. There are no RS that clearly state that they are political. It is sufficiently inferred by "right wing" without adding it explicitly in my view and that of several editors above - likely a majority of those taking part in the current version of the discussion. There is no need to confer a dubious formal soubriquet and a needless grammatical tautology into the bargain. Leaky Caldron 15:14, 26 July 2010 (UTC)

I think formal soubriquets and grammatical tautologies are frequently useful linguistic devices. --FormerIP (talk) 15:27, 26 July 2010 (UTC)

Would you mind relating the meaning of that in plain English? __meco (talk) 15:43, 26 July 2010 (UTC)

Something like: Giving something a commonly-used, neutral-sounding name and using more words that is strictly necessary are both things that will often help someone understand what you are saying. As In the example where you ask for something in plain English and it means I use less technical language and more words overall, but you are more able to understand what I am getting at. --FormerIP (talk) 15:57, 26 July 2010 (UTC)

That is certainly plainly understandable. What would this translate to with respect to wording the description of the EDL? Could you attempt your own examples of either version, with and without the formal soubriquets and grammatical tautologies? __meco (talk) 17:57, 26 July 2010 (UTC)

My suggestion is that we stablise the phrase above as it is a consensus, get that inplace then have the political debate here rather than the edit wars which broke out this afternoon. --Snowded ^TALK 15:16, 26 July 2010 (UTC)

I think the objection stems from the following. They do not appear to have political aspirations, not do they appear to be active except for demos. They do not seem to have a racial agenda. Nor do they seem to have a political philosophy. They appear to be just a protest movement that has one issue (we don’t like Ialsmaification, and may be Muslims) and a desire to replace football hooliganism with some other excuse to kick someone’s head in. In this respect they (as I have said before) are no more political then the ALF or UAF (which is not called political in the lead, and is rather more political then the EDL).Slatersteven (talk) 15:18, 26 July 2010 (UTC)

It is still quite normal to describe single-issue groups as political. I wouldn't have a problem with calling the UAF political (but we are not disucssing that article). Do we have a good source for them denying being political (I am sceptical about this). --FormerIP (talk)

Such as which wiki articels?Slatersteven (talk) 15:30, 26 July 2010 (UTC)

Eh? --FormerIP (talk) 15:52, 26 July 2010 (UTC)

What other articels call single issue protest gruops political?Slatersteven (talk) 16:10, 26 July 2010 (UTC)

Not sure how important that is (WP:OTHERSTUFFEXISTS, but Tea Party movement, Electoral Reform Society. --FormerIP (talk) 16:41, 26 July 2010 (UTC)

The Tea party movment is not single issue, it campignns ojn a number of issues as well as backing candiate4s and lobbying. Its clearly a grass root political movment. The reform society wants to reform...politics... not society. Its important becasue we cannot be seen to treat the EQDl by a differtn set of standerds to any similar groups.Slatersteven (talk) 10:48, 27 July 2010 (UTC)

Political is well sourced. There really is no need for further discussion. Verbal chat 15:51, 26 July 2010 (UTC)

Verbal did you get out of the wrong side of the bed this morning? I've been through the references and its not direct it does require either interpretation or the acceptance of regional newspapers as a source. I can't find a statement in the national press. --Snowded ^TALK 15:54, 26 July 2010 (UTC)

Far right is a political designation, it is not synthesis, and it is sourced. The EDL make it a notable point themselves. Verbal chat 16:02, 26 July 2010 (UTC)

Can I point out again that one of the biggest problems with "political" is how vague a description it is. It can mean 101 things to different editors and readers. It's never going to be 100% clear what is being meant by those wishing to include it, or what will be taken away by those reading it. Hence it's surely not useful to include it, or, equally, to say that the group are not political. And "quasi-political" is even vaguer. The group protests, about specific issues - that makes them political in the broadest sense. They do not have a broad platform that covers a wide range of issues, or employ a wide variety of campaigning strategies - in that sense they are not political. Also, all sorts of sources will say all sort of different, often contradictory, things, and we need to work out a concise definition that incorporates the broad consensus of those sources. Cherry picking doesn't help, even if you can find 20 sources that happens to support a preferred phrasing. There will always be 21 others that don't use it, or explicitly contradict it, or follow it but mean something else by it.

A while back, I suggested a rewording of the lead's opening paragraph that also specifically highlighted from the outset the protest activity. That would clarify - via basic verifiable facts, not through subjective description - what the group is about, and what it is best known for, far more explicitly and with greater clarity than vague words such as "political". It also avoids possible confusion over the suggested "street movement" description. It also hedged the "far right" issue slightly, but not in a way that I think was too far outside of WP:WTA, especially given the pejorative nature of that label - however accurate and well-sourced it might be in this case - such that its use can itself be seen as a breach of that same guideline. N-HH talk/edits 16:01, 26 July 2010 (UTC)

aSource for the EDL saying they are political pleae.Slatersteven (talk) 16:10, 26 July 2010 (UTC).

OK let me return to the proposal - we restore ""The English Defence League (EDL) is an English far-right quasi-political street movement[1] formed in 2009"" which is directly sourced, we then open up two discussions (i) on political/quasi political/no reference and (ii) IF AND ONLY IF A REFERENCE IS FOUND the right wing issue. Its not perfect but it would be a stable state. --Snowded ^TALK 16:17, 26 July 2010 (UTC)

If you add the phrase "street movement" into the mix, then I'm with you. But how different is that from where we are? --FormerIP (talk) 16:20, 26 July 2010 (UTC)

Street movement is there, I have no objections to it being protest movement but we all need to get something agreed in place from which we can discuss. At the moment its a mess. --Snowded ^TALK 16:34, 26 July 2010 (UTC)

The EDL organise demonstrations, make placards and chant things. On their website they say that they support Geert Wilders and that their "aim and focus is to put pressure on whatever government is in power". Absent any statment by them to the contrary (which would be bizarre), they are politcal per the duck test. The fact that we have sourcing is nice, but we don't actually need it, and we definitely don't need primary sourcing (I'm still waiting, though, to see if anyone can come up with a source where they suggest they are not political). --FormerIP (talk) 16:16, 26 July 2010 (UTC)

N-HH: would support something like "protest group". The point here isn't that I care very much about giving them the label "political", I would just like to describe them in a way that will be understood by other Englsih speakers. --FormerIP (talk) 16:19, 26 July 2010 (UTC)

If they are called "far right" in the article, the term "political" is redundant. TFD (talk) 16:37, 26 July 2010 (UTC)

Googling for "EDL non political" brings up various references to that claim by the group itself, including from their site, which I'm not going to link to directly. Not many third party ones though. Although as I say, for me it's a red herring really. The following in some order or other would seem to be a neutral, accurate and verifiable description, that covers all the bases in a two-three sentence definition -

• "The EDL is a single-issue English right-wing organisation, whose stated aim is to oppose radical Islamism. Since its formation in 2009, the group has organised a series of small but controversial protests in English cities, several of which have ended in violence and with the arrests of EDL members or counter-demonstrators. Mainstream politicans and media usually characterise the group as far right or fascist [although the group itself says that it is open to people of all races and faiths]"

Currently it's getting a bit silly - we now have both "political" and "quasi-political" in the lead. If we wished to include a sourced self-description from the EDL, we could also have "non political" in the lead. This is the problem with relying on controversial and subjective, yet often imprecise, one-word labels, while saying it's OK because we have sources for each of them. You can find a source, even a decent source, for anything if you look hard enough, especially in the regional press. N-HH talk/edits 16:37, 26 July 2010 (UTC)

N-HH, I'm still interested to know if the EDL has ever denied being political. I'm not going to force you to link to their website, but you could at least provide the relevant quote. Think your proposal is a good one, although it broadens the area for disucssion - maybe we should get one thing dealt with at a time. Don't like your last sentence, because WP's voice should not suggest that being rw or fasicst is necessarily inconsistent with being "open to people of all faces and faiths", which it isn't. --FormerIP (talk) 16:52, 26 July 2010 (UTC)

This link may or not work, but highlights the claim from the EDL, and from some other less-than-RS sites. Fair point on the last sentence, the issue isn't often or always as clear cut as that of course. More broadly I was trying to suggest using fuller descriptions of their activities in some cases, rather than simple but unclear and subjective labels - hence I avoided "protest group" or "street movement" as well as "political", but instead described in more detail the thing they are best known for. The version does though include a couple of labels that are either uncontroversial (eg "single issue", "organisation") or where the sources are almost unanimous (virtually every paper calls them "right-wing", with most - but not all in every instance - going further to the more specific "far right") N-HH talk/edits 17:07, 26 July 2010 (UTC)

The term "right-wing" is too vague. TFD (talk) 17:00, 26 July 2010 (UTC)

I would be prepared to support changing "Far right" to "right wing". That may resolve this dispute and there is plenty of sources (with a far more wide ranging balance) backing up the term. BritishWatcher (talk) 08:20, 27 July 2010 (UTC)

Looking outside Britain

I suggested in posts above that looking outside the mediasphere of the United Kingdom might be a good idea for finding non-partisan descriptions by neutral, i.e. disinterested, sources. No one took me up on that then As I realize that the article currently contains nothing by British media outlets, I decided to check some for myself, and I found that two Australian newspapers[20][21] may have a slightly different vocabulary than the British. This is only a cursory probe, and I encourage other editors to go beyond Australia and look more deeply at the language used in other countries. A helpful starting point can be Category:Lists of newspapers by country__meco (talk) 15:20, 26 July 2010 (UTC)

Interestingly they use "right wing". That said for these type of articles the Australian Press tend to take the UK news wires so its derivative. It would be interesting to look at European newspapers as well. That said I doubt if there is a single source about groups like this which would not be labeled as partisan by someone. --Snowded ^TALK 15:25, 26 July 2010 (UTC)

Certainly, but getting some distance might help. __meco (talk) 15:29, 26 July 2010 (UTC)

its a good idea to get some outside views.Slatersteven (talk) 15:31, 26 July 2010 (UTC)

Aways useful, but I doubt it will be more than minor news reports, unlike the more substantial researched work in the Guardian --Snowded ^TALK 15:35, 26 July 2010 (UTC)

The description appears to be the same. In any case, I do not see why we have to look outside the U. K. media. The quality British media are among the most reliable in the world. TFD (talk) 15:37, 26 July 2010 (UTC)

Its a question of distance. If a source that has no axe to grind or party to support says something it is less lightly to be motivated by oppositio then if its from this country. For example Haaretz doe not decsribe them as far right (they call them "a thuggish anti-Muslim group" which I think sums them up rather well).Slatersteven (talk) 15:42, 26 July 2010 (UTC)

I think finding European sources may be tough. I reckon anything from outside the UK is likely to just be regurgitation of UK news sources in any case. A quick search on Le Monde and Libération shows that neither of them appear to have carried articles about the EDL (at least on their websites). Le Monde gives them a passing mention in a story about Nick Griffin. Euronews ([22] - you have to run your own search) has a few articles where the EDL are described as "far-right demonstrators", a "xenophobic faction" and "a group whose violence recalls football hooliganism". --FormerIP (talk) 15:47, 26 July 2010 (UTC)

Here is the first article I found, which was picked up from AP, by googling haaretz and "english defence league: "U.K. troubled by increasingly violent anti-Islam protests British minister compares far-right group's protests to 1930s-era fascist incitement". TFD (talk) 15:55, 26 July 2010 (UTC)

Der Spiegel writes "der rechtsextremen Anti-Islam-Gruppe English Defence League". __meco (talk) 17:46, 26 July 2010 (UTC)

What is a "reliable media"? Wikipedia itself has grouped news media as leftwing, rightwing, liberal. All three will have their own perspective and agenda. Their agenda is set by the leanings of their owners and their editors. None are truly independent. Above all, what you quote from journalists' reports are predominantly hearsay. None of these reporters are responsible for any errors or deviations in what they report. Quote from media by all means, but that does not make it the absolute truth. To base a description based on an editors own opinion based on media hearsay reports goes against the objective of any encyclopedia. It is not an encyclopedia's role to identify a group or a person based on media reports. Identification is how the organisation/individual describes themselves. State facts so that readers decide if they are left wing/right wing/ thugs or hooligans.
It is laughable that an encyclopedia's editors wishes to express their own perspective in their article disguised under the guise of selective media report.
And Searchlight is a reliable "neutral" source!!! Spin me another. Awmyth (talk) 21:40, 26 July 2010 (UTC)

An example.
The alleged link to BNP is based on a Russell Jenkins writing in The Times "The groupings have attracted the support of BNP activists including Chris Renton, who created the English Defence League website." That is not evidence that is hearsay. What is recorded evidence is that the website owner is someone called Trevor Kelway. http://whois.domaintools.com/englishdefenceleague.org
I do not understand the Wikipedia editors' hierarchy. There are serious issues of neutrality evidenced in this article that needs to be addressed. Awmyth (talk) 22:04, 26 July 2010 (UTC)

I agree with your concerns about the section on the BNP. Start a new section at the bottom of the talk page so this area does not get overlooked. The BNP sources no longer work, i did a quick search on the BNP site for English Defence League but found neither of the two originally sourced articles. As for the bit about describing him as an activist, the fact someone was on the illegally leaked BNP members list (which seems to be all that is based on) is a problem. There is no confirmation he is a BNP activist that i can see and the evidence of his involvement with the website is not even as clear as it should be. BritishWatcher (talk) 11:25, 27 July 2010 (UTC)

How about

How would people feel about this..

"The English Defence League (EDL) is an English right-wing movement formed in 2009, Its stated aim is to oppose what it considers as the spread of Islamism, Sharia law and Islamic extremism in England."

Using far right does seem to concern more than one editor so perhaps right wing is a more acceptable term that both sides can accept. After doing some google searches, "Right wing" does seem to be used by a wider range of reliable media sources. BBC, Sky, Telegraph, Daily Mail, Times, The Guardian etc have all used "right wing", im not sure they have all said "far right" in the same way. BritishWatcher (talk) 08:27, 27 July 2010 (UTC)

"Far Right" is used consistently in the references and in particular the detailed report from the Guardian. I think the issues are simply around the following:

• Political/quasi-political/no reference to politics &
• Street movement/protest movement/single issue movement

If we can resolve those two then we are there, removing far right is not acceptable --Snowded ^TALK 08:42, 27 July 2010 (UTC)

Im ok with far right or right wing. I think there are more sources justifying the use of right wing from a bigger mixture of sources to ensure its seen as balanced enough, which some question of "far right".

Inclusion of "far right" is not acceptable. I again say, the MPs chairing the EDM, as sourced, clearly stated the group was "non political" and a "social movement". There is no evidence that any of the quoted reliable sources have called the MPs incorrect or as liars - as one of the editors here had the audacity to do so.Awmyth (talk) 10:08, 27 July 2010 (UTC)

I do not like "street movement" Its a rather strange term and considering a lot of its activity happens online which is how they organise their protests it seems rather strange. just "Movement" or "group" would be better. I also do not like "political / quasi political" and think that should be removed completely. BritishWatcher (talk) 08:46, 27 July 2010 (UTC)

I hate to add a new word to the mix at this stage but, on reading the article, it could be described accurately as a grassroots movement. That covers things in terms of identifying it's objectives as political, it's formation as very fluid (especially given how it formed) and also tends to suggest a loosely organised group of activists (again, which sounds accurate) --Errant Tmorton166^(Talk) 09:07, 27 July 2010 (UTC)

I added that in, although it would be nice to see a source --Snowded ^TALK 10:09, 27 July 2010 (UTC)

A poll such as this cannot rule out the bias of a small group of editors.
This attempt at a straw poll is incomplete and invalid. The issue of Wikipedia introducing the Organisation as "far-right" has been repeatedly disputed down this entire page, yet it is not the subject of a poll. Awmyth (talk) 10:02, 27 July 2010 (UTC)

You have been asked several times to produce a source which says they are not right wing/far-right. If you would respond to that request then it would be easier to take your POV seriously --Snowded ^TALK 10:09, 27 July 2010 (UTC)

And I have given you the source. You refuse to accept it as relevant. There are many editors who have criticised the description of far-right. It is obvious now, it is you, Snowded, who is obstructing a resolution here. It is a wastage of time and effort liaising with you. That is why I have requested help in initiating an ArbCom referral. Awmyth (talk) 10:19, 27 July 2010 (UTC)

Awmyth, what are your views on saying "right wing" rather than "far right"? There is a case to be made that far right should be replaced by right wing, but it certainly needs one of the two in the introductions first sentence. BritishWatcher (talk) 10:21, 27 July 2010 (UTC)

At last some sensible options. Right wing is appropriate. Far right is not.Awmyth (talk) 10:35, 27 July 2010 (UTC)

Awmyth, you have given us a source which does not use "Far Right" that is not the same thing in fact. If a RS says that "Wales is the land of song" it does not follow that Wales is not a part of the UK, just because the term was not used. Basic logic. All the reliable sources consistently use "far right" and that is the basis of decisions here. --Snowded ^TALK 10:25, 27 July 2010 (UTC)

Sorry, I am no longer prepared to discuss with you Snowded. You are not prepared to accept any POV other than yours. You simply hide behind what you prefer to accept as relevant sources. I do not have unlimited time to spend on this, I have other things to do.Awmyth (talk) 10:35, 27 July 2010 (UTC)

Sources, Awmythits the way we avoid POV --Snowded ^TALK 10:42, 27 July 2010 (UTC)

Rubbish. Sources have their own POV. Being selective in publishing sources that supports your own POV deepens the bias. You do not want to include the MPs description of the group as "non-political and social organisation" as reliable source, but you will quote an article from the Times that quotes on hearsay that a BNP person had created the EDL website. Hearsay is worthless as evidence.
At the risk of being sanctioned and banned, I call your role as an editor on this article as deeply and deliberately baised with an attitude that can only be likened to a gangland boss.86.139.147.223 (talk) 12:05, 27 July 2010 (UTC)

You're not alone, Awmyth. There have been numerous editors seeking an adjustment to the far-right label for some time now. Snowded's response is always the same (the sources say it is). He is right that most sources do say it. What continually is ignored is that his POV (along with most but bot necessarily all of the media's) can still be presented while preserving neutrality by saying it in the second line with a mention that the EDL disputes it. Probably won't ever happen though since no one has the patience to put up with these shenanigans. It shouldn't be that hard to present the group as they are (I think Young, British and Angry source says that some in the group are more far-right and racist than others) with all of the sources documenting the wort parts of their demos while still making it clear that the group as a whole may not necessarily be far-right and certainly officially disputes the common perception. Simply moving "far right" to the second line would stop many of the complaints raised on this talk page and (more importantly) the edit warring while (most importantly) still being just as factually accurate.Cptnono (talk) 10:47, 27 July 2010 (UTC)

I do not get why some editors keep getting singled out in this debate, lets focus on the issue. Many sources use the term "far right" there for it is justified and has been justified to be in that first sentence. I am prepared to support changing "far right" to "right-wing" which appears to have even more reliable sources and from a bigger mix of sources if that addresses peoples concerns and brings this particular dispute to a close. BritishWatcher (talk) 11:00, 27 July 2010 (UTC)

Because Snowded has so far been adamant that the terms "far-right" has to be included. Has not open it for polls. Is only prepared to accept sources as reliable which suits his/her agenda. The only editor who has threatened me with sanctions, here and on my page.86.139.147.223 (talk) 11:56, 27 July 2010 (UTC)

The term is backed up by sources so there is nothing wrong with its inclusion and Snowded is simply defending its use which has been agreed in the past by editors here. You were breaking the rules before, he advised you to stop in a reasonable way but going over that incident will not solve the problem, so lets just focus on the issue. Id support including a straw poll below about if Right wing should be used rather than Far right if enough editors are concerned about "far right" remaining. BritishWatcher (talk) 12:21, 27 July 2010 (UTC)

I may well have missed this discussion somewhere up above, but has there been any consideration of whether "movement" is the best term to use? "Group" or "organisation" seem to me to be more neutral - "movement", to me, seems to give it greater substance and significance than the refs seem to support. If refs consistently suggest one word rather than another, we should go with that, but they don't seem to. Ghmyrtle (talk) 10:30, 27 July 2010 (UTC)

I can put another option up if you want, any idea on the source balance? --Snowded ^TALK 10:35, 27 July 2010 (UTC)

• I think it makes more sense to consider it as an organisation. I would also consider adding that it works primarily through online social networking and its own forum aswell as through the casuals united network --Omar418 (talk) 10:38, 27 July 2010 (UTC)

I would oppose "organisation", but i would be fine with "group" rather than movement". BritishWatcher (talk) 10:44, 27 July 2010 (UTC)

• They are pretty organised...hats, scarves, badges, t-shirts, website, posters, demonstrations, networking, leadership struggles, organisational structure coming in with regional leaders... —Preceding unsigned comment added by Omar418 (talk • --Omar418 (talk) 11:01, 27 July 2010 (UTC)

No declared formal structure though, more self organising with some main players --Snowded ^TALK 10:59, 27 July 2010 (UTC)

Straw Poll issue 1

The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section. A summary of the conclusions reached follows.

"No reference to politics". Arguments for including "political" or "quasi-political" are that both terms can be cited, making no clear mention of "political" would be leaving out an important fact, and that "political" isn't controversial. The majority view appears to be that "political" is a tautology (i.e. redundant) if we describe the EDL as "right-wing" or "far right", that "politics" is a relatively minor part of the EDL's aims, and that "political" and "quasi-political" are ambiguous (they mean different things to different people). A greater number of editors appear to support "no reference" to either of the other two options. TFOWR 11:04, 28 July 2010 (UTC)

---

political

• preference but OK with quasi ca live with removal as long as far right is retained --Snowded ^TALK 08:47, 27 July 2010 (UTC)
• Prefer this by a small margin. Think it depends on the contents of the rest of the sentence. I don't like "street movement" at all, so if this stays then I think it def needs the clarifier "political". Otherwise I would prefer it, but can live without. --FormerIP (talk) 10:53, 27 July 2010 (UTC)
• Preference per reliable sources, non controversial verifiable fact, and because this is an encyclopaedia not a whitewash. Verbal chat 16:09, 27 July 2010 (UTC)

How is not calling them political a whitewash? How are we covering up something about them? If Far right means political then we are still calling them political, we are just not calling them political political.Slatersteven (talk) 16:12, 27 July 2010 (UTC)

Then if it is obvious why do you want it removed? Verbal chat 16:18, 27 July 2010 (UTC)

It is how, besides you have still not answerd how is this a whitewash?Slatersteven (talk) 16:28, 27 July 2010 (UTC)

quasi-political

• Most reliably sourced. AJRG (talk) 09:03, 27 July 2010 (UTC)
• Neutral It sums up both the issue on this page (are they political or not) and is sourced. As well as the fact that whilst thet have some political leanings they ae not actualy politicaly active (and I suspect are not in it for the politics), they just shout at people.Slatersteven (talk) 10:54, 27 July 2010 (UTC)
• Strong oppose. I don't think there is such a thing as "quasi-political". It is just poor use of English in the source. --FormerIP (talk) 10:55, 27 July 2010 (UTC)

Unexpectedly, there is. Actual proof here. See also Blackshirts (India), Social class in ancient Rome, African Agricultural Union, Akhter Husain, Jerry Horan and many more. AJRG (talk) 11:44, 27 July 2010 (UTC)

The fact that people have used the word does not necessarily mean it has a cogent meaning. I don't see how something can be nearly but not quite political. --FormerIP (talk) 11:49, 27 July 2010 (UTC)

In the same way that the above comment is somewhere between WP:IDONTLIKEIT and WP:OR. AJRG (talk) 11:59, 27 July 2010 (UTC)

Even if its a reliable term, its just one of those phrases that sounds awful and should be avoided unless absolutely necessary which in this case it clearly isnt. BritishWatcher (talk) 12:02, 27 July 2010 (UTC)

As it sums up what they are, not quite but almost something, and its about the best sourced use of the word political we have I would have to say just 'not liking the sound of it' does not seem to be a valid reason for exclusion.Slatersteven (talk) 12:11, 27 July 2010 (UTC)

Yes it is. Good style and precise English is important. --FormerIP (talk) 12:13, 27 July 2010 (UTC)

So how is calling them far right political (as opposed to what far right cake baking?) good English? Besides we use what the best source availible uses. Lets stick to how RS describe them shall we.Slatersteven (talk) 12:17, 27 July 2010 (UTC)

I do not think "political" is needed at all (although id prefer it to this). Having the intro say it is Quasi-political which you described as "not quite but almost something" seems like something that would need more clarification in the introduction. It would make an even bigger deal of "political" when it really is not needed. BritishWatcher (talk) 12:31, 27 July 2010 (UTC)

• Equal worst solution (with below), with poorest sourcing. Political is better and clearly true. Verbal chat 16:10, 27 July 2010 (UTC)

So a national newpaper is less reliable then two local papers?Slatersteven (talk) 16:19, 27 July 2010 (UTC)

Yes, that newspaper is, and you forget all the other sources and the dictionary. Verbal chat 16:28, 27 July 2010 (UTC)

What dictionary has been used as a source? what other sourcfes say tehy are political? also see [[23]] which says that on balance we should not say poliitcal as the buolk of sources do not use the term.Slatersteven (talk) 16:31, 27 July 2010 (UTC)

That was one person's opinion in a very short discussion. Hardly a strong consensus. AJRG (talk) 16:58, 27 July 2010 (UTC)

I agree , but its all we have so far from community on this matter.Slatersteven (talk) 17:08, 27 July 2010 (UTC)

Pick any dictionary you like. Verbal chat 16:44, 27 July 2010 (UTC)

That counts as WP:OR. Local papers rarely make reliable sources. AJRG (talk) 17:06, 27 July 2010 (UTC)

So in fact no disctionary was used as a source then.Slatersteven (talk) 17:09, 27 July 2010 (UTC)

no reference to politics

• far-right is sufficient to identify it as political, quasi-political is.... a horrible word :) --Errant Tmorton166^(Talk) 09:03, 27 July 2010 (UTC)
• No need for political to be mentioned in the introduction. Many groups have political aims, it doesn't mean the term political must be mentioned in the lead and it is already covered by "far right". BritishWatcher (talk) 09:05, 27 July 2010 (UTC)
• Agreed --Omar418 (talk) 10:36, 27 July 2010 (UTC)
• Why do we need political if Far Right (or right wing) mean it. What the sentance is then saying is that they are a political political movment, which is plain daft. Either Far right means political (in which case we don't need to hammer it home like some one slaming your face into a table shouting "DO YOU GET IT THIER POLITICAL". Or it does not mean that which means we have too not really very good sources supporting the tem.Slatersteven (talk) 11:29, 27 July 2010 (UTC)
• As argued above, the term - or equally any explicit claim that they are not political - just means too many different things to different people. They clearly are political in the broadest sense of the word, but arguably not in one of several narrower senses. Best avoided, and just keep to other descriptions that are clearer, and more consistently verified in sources. "Quasi-political" is even worse in my view, and is anyway only used once, in passing, in one source AFAIK. N-HH talk/edits 13:38, 27 July 2010 (UTC)

In what sense are they not political? Verbal chat 16:17, 27 July 2010 (UTC)

Per my reasoning here, and noted previously elsewhere. More specifically, the EDL themselves claim - for what it's worth - not to be political, presumably in order to suggest that their views count more, as being somehow unbiased or non-factional, rather than being rooted in traditional far right politics. Marsha Singh's EDM, signed by Jeremy Corbyn and others, describes them as "non-political" in a very different sense and for very different reasons, presumably simply to suggest they are simply street thugs, and that there is no need to be squeamish about curtailing their right to express themselves, since they are not part of standard, reasonable or democratic political world. That's my point - the word means different things to different people, and carries no real information. Why not just describe what they do, rather than try to add one-word subjective labels unless we have relative clarity, and/or relative unanimity within sources? Several sources use the term, but many more do not. N-HH talk/edits 16:32, 27 July 2010 (UTC)

The EDL is not a RS. Which dictionary definition of political does this group fail to meet? Verbal chat 16:39, 27 July 2010 (UTC)

Which one do they fit?Slatersteven (talk) 16:45, 27 July 2010 (UTC)

The EDL are a very reliable source for what they say about themselves. Whether what they say is bollox is another matter altogether. Plus, we are talking about common use of the term, not dictionary definitions, which often will not capture every nuance of language use. However, I can see several bits here that could easily be seen to exclude the EDL and its activities/aims. For some people, everything is political. For others, it refers simply to established party politics and to government policy. N-HH talk/edits 16:57, 27 July 2010 (UTC)

• No reference to political in opening sentence. Happy with the 2nd sentence 8 month consensus version where "their political direction is being discussed within the group" - per source. Also gets rid of the grammar tautology use of the redundant adjective "political" following "right wing". Leaky Caldron 14:20, 27 July 2010 (UTC)
• Strong oppose per multiple reliable sources. Political should be included as this group's stated aims are overtly political. It is not a tautology at all (I think you mean inference or implication). Verbal chat 16:16, 27 July 2010 (UTC)

Far right political (according to the way you have defined far right to mean) is the same as Political political, that is what is meant by a tautology, saying the same thing twice in different way, a bit like using different words to say the same meaning.Slatersteven (talk) 16:21, 27 July 2010 (UTC)

A straw man, and incorrect to boot. Nowhere have I done that. Far right and political are not interchangeable, and since a lot of people seem to think you can be far right with political, and the EDL have made a point of this word, then we should be explicit in using the correct designation of "far right single issue political group" or similar. Verbal chat 16:25, 27 July 2010 (UTC)

"The following references all attribute political designations to the group, hence support the text" so you are saying that the sources support political becaseu they call them far right, thus saying that the two terms are in fact interchangible. that they mean the same.Slatersteven (talk) 16:31, 27 July 2010 (UTC)

¨No, you have it backwards. I'm sorry you don't seem to be able to understand this, but I've explained it as clearly as I can. Verbal chat 16:38, 27 July 2010 (UTC)

How do I have it backwards? you have explained nothing. All you have said is that sources that ue teh term far right are calling them political. how have I mis-understood?Slatersteven (talk) 16:40, 27 July 2010 (UTC)

The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

Straw Poll issue 2

The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section. A summary of the conclusions reached follows.

"Single issue X". There's a clear consensus for this, based on long-standing acceptance, clarity and accuracy. TFOWR 11:03, 28 July 2010 (UTC)

---

street X

protest X

• "protest movement" sounds good, although i would be fine with just "movement" BritishWatcher (talk) 09:07, 27 July 2010 (UTC)
• --FormerIP (talk) 11:00, 27 July 2010 (UTC)

single issue X

• most accurate --Snowded ^TALK 08:47, 27 July 2010 (UTC)
• as above, also more easily understood by a reader (street movement can have multiple definitions and we shouldn't need to define what we mean in the lead) --Errant Tmorton166^(Talk) 09:04, 27 July 2010 (UTC)
• I agree. AJRG (talk) 09:08, 27 July 2010 (UTC)
• Cosign --Omar418 (talk) 10:34, 27 July 2010 (UTC)
• Prety much about what they are.Slatersteven (talk) 10:55, 27 July 2010 (UTC)
• Agree that this is clear and accurate. N-HH talk/edits 13:39, 27 July 2010 (UTC)
• agree - per 8 month consensus version. Leaky Caldron 14:24, 27 July 2010 (UTC)
• single issue political group, like we had before (8 month consensus version) and per multiple sources. Verbal chat 16:13, 27 July 2010 (UTC)

That’s odd because the change to political was made 2 months ago, not 8 or have a mis-understood what you are saying? And this version was immediately reverted[[24]]. Moreover teh consensus version was the one that left out the word poliitcal (consensus actualy requires people to agree with you).Slatersteven (talk) 11:03, 28 July 2010 (UTC)

grass roots X

The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

Straw Poll issue 3 what is X

The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section. A summary of the conclusions reached follows.

"Group". Most editors seemed happy with most options, but "group" seems to be the option most editors are comfortable with. There are concerns that "group" may imply small size: I feel this concern is unwarranted: the EDL are relatively small when taken in the context of wider opposition to immigration or the growth of Islam in the UK. TFOWR 11:01, 28 July 2010 (UTC)

---

organisation

• Think "organisation" is more accurate than "movement". To me, a movement implies no single leading organisation, whereas everyone on an EDL demo is nominally representing the EDL. --FormerIP (talk) 11:00, 27 July 2010 (UTC)
• First preference. They are clearly an organisation in that they are organised, and organise. They describe themselves as a "grass roots social movement", and such a self-assessment needs to be considered very carefully. To me, the word "movement" implies a much greater substance and significance than refs would suggest - "group" is OK, but they do seem to have some form of organisation which justifies the use of that word. Ghmyrtle (talk) 12:40, 27 July 2010 (UTC)

Good point about movement implying something bigger and more significant. BritishWatcher (talk) 13:31, 27 July 2010 (UTC)

group

• easier on the tongue and makes sense to me --Omar418 (talk) 11:05, 27 July 2010 (UTC)
• Group is probably more clear than movement but i am fine with either. (i just strongly oppose Organisation) BritishWatcher (talk) 11:15, 27 July 2010 (UTC)
• Can live with group. May be considered POV because it tends to denote a small size. --FormerIP (talk) 11:36, 27 July 2010 (UTC)
• Pretty easy with all these options - group is broad and probably includes the other two, hence may be better. Yes it can suggest a small size, but then again they are not a massive movement, as documented by most sources that discuss them. Organisation fine too; movement not so sure about, but purely on personal irrational grounds. Perhaps because I tend to read "mass" or "bowel" in front of it. N-HH talk/edits 13:42, 27 July 2010 (UTC)

movement

• not too fussed on this one, but think this is more accurate --Snowded ^TALK 11:12, 27 July 2010 (UTC)
• Seems to me this is what they are.Slatersteven (talk) 11:26, 27 July 2010 (UTC)
• Very slight preference for this - the sources seem balanced. AJRG (talk) 11:54, 27 July 2010 (UTC)

The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

New Section "Violent Incidents" and a simplified list of protests?

There have been known to be a few violent incidents involving EDL demonstrations. Notably at Swansea (?), Dudley and Bolton. There is a general feeling they go hand in hand with violence among many.

Perhaps we can have a list of the protests with a simple breakdown of attendance and a section on violence and arrests? --Omar418 (talk) 10:59, 27 July 2010 (UTC)

Someone mentioned above about changing the activities section. I would support a table with Date/Location/Numbers involved/basic notes about what happened like violence, arrests etc. BritishWatcher (talk) 11:04, 27 July 2010 (UTC)

A table with protests would be a good idea but there are points, when it comes to Dudley, the violence has been the main issue. --Omar418 (talk) 11:13, 27 July 2010 (UTC)

How about a table and then text on major issues etc.? --Snowded ^TALK 11:13, 27 July 2010 (UTC)

I think the protests deserve their own table and its important to keep impartial. A section on violence, intimidation (i.e. the death threats that have been posted in the article) needs to seperate the two. There are hard facts to be laid out statistically and there are important events and actions that need to expanded upon. Need to go through the whole activities section seperating wheat from chaff as there is a lot of un-necessary repetition. The chanting could be summed up in a quick paragraph about the protests. Violence needs expanded upon. --Omar418 (talk) 11:26, 27 July 2010 (UTC)

Agree fully with that --Snowded ^TALK 11:28, 27 July 2010 (UTC)

Agree that a brief table or list of specific demos should be combined with more thematically structured prose discussing the group and its activity. Without lapsing into original research or unwarranted synthesis of course. N-HH talk/edits 13:44, 27 July 2010 (UTC)

Consensus on adding a reference for Dudley protests

Posted above in the POV section but would like to see if I can get consensus so the reference can be posted through the admin. Stated below what I had above:

I'd like to update my reference for the Dudley demonstration where the Hindu Temple was attacked during a protest. The link I posted was simply to a comment about an article saying trouble had occured. I would simply like the current reference for the attack on the Temple to be replaced with the one below or to have this added to it.

This reference: http://www.stourbridgenews.co.uk/news/8283497.EDL_protest_bill_tops_half_a_million_pounds/ contains an informative quote from West Midlands Police: “Amongst the premises attacked were residential homes around Alexandra Street, cars parked in roads surrounding Stafford Street, restaurants on Wolverhampton Street and the Hindu Temple. “Many of these locations saw windows smashed, and damage caused to fencing. A couple of vehicles were damaged as they were targeted whilst being driven through the town.” The main point is that a Hindu Temple is being smashed up by a group that claims to be anti-Islamism. --Omar418 (talk) 11:53, 27 July 2010 (UTC)

The implication being that it is racist and/or ignorant rather than anti-islam? That would need to be specified in a source for us to state it or imply it? --Snowded ^TALK 11:54, 27 July 2010 (UTC)

The source in the article should certainly be replaced with the source you linked above. Its replacing a local news source with another local source that provides more accurate information. Nothing controversial about this change. The fact a hindu temple was attacked can be interpreted by the reader themselves. BritishWatcher (talk) 11:56, 27 July 2010 (UTC)

I wonder if our Hindu EDL colleague Awmyth brought a sick-note for that particular incident? --FormerIP (talk) 12:01, 27 July 2010 (UTC)

Reply to FormerIP. How is this comment of yours have any relevance to the purpose of this discussion. Its moronic comments like this that hijacks the purpose of this page.86.139.147.223 (talk) 12:14, 27 July 2010 (UTC)

Just in case this comment gets deleted again, I will record this.
::I wonder if our Hindu EDL colleague Awmyth brought a sick-note for that particular incident? --FormerIP (talk) 12:01, 27 July 2010 (UTC) I dare you to delete this.86.139.147.223 (talk) 12:16, 27 July 2010 (UTC)

Well, I thought it was cute of me, but I then thought better and posted on your talkpage instead. I'm happy to leave the comment here if you are, though. --FormerIP (talk) 12:19, 27 July 2010 (UTC)

Agree . FormerIP, I appreciate that you removed the comment (it was re-added in an edit conflict but comments like this would be best not made in the first place. Comment on contributions, not contributors. TFOWR 12:20, 27 July 2010 (UTC)

86.139.147.223, you're signed-out. It's generally best to remain signed-in where possible - otherwise it causes drama because other editors may think that two different editors are commenting, or that you're trying to give the impression of two different editors commenting. TFOWR 12:20, 27 July 2010 (UTC)

86.139.147.223 is me. I must have lost my logged in status just before I hit Save Page. Isn't the first time it has happened to me. I did try to correct it, it didn't work.Awmyth (talk) 12:23, 27 July 2010 (UTC)

No worries. There's clearly no attempt to mislead anyone here, it's just that it can be a cause for drama - which I'm keen to avoid ;-) TFOWR 12:28, 27 July 2010 (UTC)

Oppose use of local news articles, as above, per WP:RS, WP:PRIMARYand WP:UNDUE. AJRG (talk) 12:03, 27 July 2010 (UTC)

I disagree, but think it may be good to raise this at RSN, since a couple of editors seem to be in favour of it. --FormerIP (talk) 12:05, 27 July 2010 (UTC)

Mainstream news sources, especially those at the high-quality end of the market, are considered to be generally reliable. However, it is understood that even the most reputable news outlets occasionally contain errors. Whether a specific news story is reliable for a specific fact or statement in a Wikipedia article is something that must be assessed on a case by case basis. When using news sources, care should be taken to distinguish opinion columns from news reporting. (WP:RS). AJRG (talk) 12:49, 27 July 2010 (UTC)

...which says something about a "case by case basis" (ie no blanket rules), but nothing about local press. --FormerIP (talk) 12:53, 27 July 2010 (UTC)

Not many local newspapers could be described as being at the high-quality end of the market. Most are so close to the action that they count as primary sources. Unless you can show national interest in a local story (which would then give you a proper secondary source), inclusion is likely to give the story undue weight. AJRG (talk) 14:14, 27 July 2010 (UTC)

I will admit to doubts in one respect. none of the sources indicate how may of tose arrested, or which violent incidents were EDl and which may have been others. I would be happier if we left out material that does not actualy be dirrectly attributed actions to the EDL.Slatersteven (talk) 12:56, 27 July 2010 (UTC)

Important Point Here: I think arrests are rarely attributed to a group by the police. Still, if we are going to have a tabled protests section stats of arrests for that section would be important. It has to be noted that there is riot police dispatched, large numbers of counter-demonstrators and the reason for that is highlighted by the arrests. --Omar418 (talk) 14:28, 27 July 2010 (UTC)

Replacing a local news source with a more accurate local news source seems like a reasonable thing to do for the time being. As this whole activity section is going to be gone through, we could deal with potential concerns about local sources during that larger change. I do not see the problem with this small alteration being made for the time being. BritishWatcher (talk) 12:10, 27 July 2010 (UTC)

Seems fair enoug, if the whole sectio is going to get worked over then we can deal with each peice at t atime.Slatersteven (talk) 12:14, 27 July 2010 (UTC)

On the local press issue. It seems to be that we cannot rely on them for opinion, but reporting of statements by the police seems fair enough --Snowded ^TALK 12:55, 27 July 2010 (UTC)

Agreed BritishWatcher (talk) 13:04, 27 July 2010 (UTC)

Happy with that as a general rule of thumb, but would leave open the possibility of exceptions. Opinion pieces in local news sources may be notable in some cases. The guidance says to distinguish between news and opinion in all cases, not to reject opinion in certain categries of news source. --FormerIP (talk) 13:07, 27 July 2010 (UTC)

On the issue of local press. I can vouch that my local newspaper the Evening Times is probably the least political of all the newspapers sold in my area, including the national broadsheets (it also outsells many of the national newspapers). They are well known for giving the news without a political slant. I can't speak for the local newspapers used as refs for this article, but thought I'd stick up for at least one local paper. Unless there is a policy restricting sources to national newspapers I'm not sure the locals should be dismissed so easily. Jack 1314 (talk) 13:12, 27 July 2010 (UTC)

There's a lot of awful, amateurish content in the local press of course, but equally it's often the best place to go to for detailed coverage of local events. Some papers are "better" than others of course as well (often simply because they have more resources). Straight reporting on specific protests, or of the reaction/comment from local police or whoever should be fine. Probably better sources can be found for analysis or overarching themes though. As noted, looking at this on a case by cse basis seems to be the best option. N-HH talk/edits 13:50, 27 July 2010 (UTC)

EDL links to the BNP

Copied the following from a section above to ensure it gets debated and not overlooked as there is so much activity on this talkpage right now. BritishWatcher (talk) 13:23, 27 July 2010 (UTC)

An example.
The alleged link to BNP is based on a Russell Jenkins writing in The Times "The groupings have attracted the support of BNP activists including Chris Renton, who created the English Defence League website." That is not evidence that is hearsay. What is recorded evidence is that the website owner is someone called Trevor Kelway.http://whois.domaintools.com/englishdefenceleague.org
I do not understand the Wikipedia editors' hierarchy. There are serious issues of neutrality evidenced in this article that needs to be addressed. Awmyth (talk) 22:04, 26 July 2010 (UTC)

I agree with your concerns about the section on the BNP. Start a new section at the bottom of the talk page so this area does not get overlooked. The BNP sources no longer work, i did a quick search on the BNP site for English Defence League but found neither of the two originally sourced articles. As for the bit about describing him as an activist, the fact someone was on the illegally leaked BNP members list (which seems to be all that is based on) is a problem. There is no confirmation he is a BNP activist that i can see and the evidence of his involvement with the website is not even as clear as it should be. BritishWatcher(talk) 11:25, 27 July 2010 (UTC)

The current wording and sources do seem problematic and some changes are needed or the whole section removed if more sources can not be found BritishWatcher (talk) 13:23, 27 July 2010 (UTC)

This was just added as an attempted slur, mostly OR and weak claims in an attempt to associate and connect them to the BNP, laughable, no actually depth to the claim at all. Off2riorob (talk) 13:26, 27 July 2010 (UTC)

I support, entirely, it's removal. If we can source (via a third party) the BNP's stance on the group that may be relevant at some point in the article. But a section called "links to the BNP" which establishes the link via the programmer (who may be a BNP member but certainly does not represent the party and so is not a link) and then a statement which basically says "they are worse than the BNP". Pure attack --Errant Tmorton166^(Talk) 13:29, 27 July 2010 (UTC)

There have been allegations of links between the EDL and BNP and also denials by both organisations. Think it is probably notable, though I am not sure it deserves its own section. That the EDL have attracted the support of BNP activists is not at all controversial, I would suggest. Think the website issue has been discussed previously. Chris Renton appears to have set up an EDL website, this was disclosed in the press (through a WHOIS search) and after that the WHOIS details were changed. Looking at the "evidence", as Awmyth suggests, would be OR. What we have is an RS for the claim. --FormerIP (talk) 13:40, 27 July 2010 (UTC)

This is simply rubbish. The Times article does not say that Chris Renton was identified through domain search. Moreover, the records on domaintools.com (since 1 Oct 2009 the first day of creation of that domain) does not show the domain registrant has changed - only the webhost and IP of the domain did. This is a classic example of deliberately selecting hearsay evidence as reliable source without cross checking the authenticity of the claims, simply because it appears to support the opinion of the editor.Awmyth (talk) 14:37, 27 July 2010 (UTC)

I think the quote comes from the early days when people were trying to work out what was going on and who was behind the EDL. Remember that the BNP have a history of front organisations. Given that there has been nothing since then its probably a dead issue and should be deleted --Snowded ^TALK 13:43, 27 July 2010 (UTC)

It's maybe worth noting that the EDL is proscribed by the BNL, much like Militant was proscribed by Labour (and I'm fairly certain there are organisations proscribed by the Tories?) It probably doesn't warrant its own section, however. TFOWR 13:46, 27 July 2010 (UTC)

Also Mr Renton is listed as seting up the EDL website, not as an actiove member of the EDl, nor as a link to the BNP.Also the EDL have turned upo at pro-israle demos, so we should have a section that isd about the EDLs links to zionism.Slatersteven (talk) 13:48, 27 July 2010 (UTC)

If links to zionism are sourced and notable, then I'd agree with that. On Renton, the source does identify him as a BNP activist. If he is not an EDL activist (I reckon he must be though), then I would suggest that this makes the incident more notable, since we would have to infer that the BNP were doing the EDL a favour and helping to set them up. --FormerIP (talk) 13:50, 27 July 2010 (UTC)

I seriously doubt there are any solid links to Zionism within the EDL. Given the Ha'aretz article on the Jewish Division starting I'd dismiss the idea initially until there was some link found to the WZO or the JNF. Both of which are highly unlikely! --Omar418 (talk) 14:34, 27 July 2010 (UTC)

Actually, it's a funny old world. Some Eurpoean far-right organisations do have links to right-wing Israeli organisations, as depressing as that may sound. I suspect the EDL do not, but would like to. --FormerIP (talk) 14:39, 27 July 2010 (UTC)

since we would have to infer that the BNP were doing the EDL a favour and helping to set them up; Uh. Does it? or does it simply mean that a BNP activist set up their website. Without any form of source that links Rentons actions with the whole party I cannot see how we are able to infer it as a link to the BNP without OR :) --Errant Tmorton166^(Talk) 14:03, 27 July 2010 (UTC)

If he is not himself involved in the EDL (although, like I say, I reckon he must be) then how did he end up doing their website? I can't see what explanation there would be other than he did the EDL webiste on behalf of the BNP. I'm not saying this is the case, just pointing out the logical consequence of arguing that he may not have been an EDL member. --FormerIP (talk) 14:21, 27 July 2010 (UTC)

We could infer it was a commercial transaction, and he was cheap.Slatersteven (talk) 14:08, 27 July 2010 (UTC)

We have sources that say that hey have turned up at pro-israle demos, if evidacne that the BNP are linked to the EDL is based on BNP members supporting the EDL (or visa versa) then the same would apply to zionism, that is my point. If a source say teh BNP and EDl are linked we can say that accusation has been made, but we cannot say there is a link if RS do not dawr that conclusion. how about this, which actualy does say Join Hands (affectivly liks), not a link we infer http://www.daily.pk/zionist-federation-fascist-edl-join-hands-in-supporting-israels-murder-at-sea-18268/ Slatersteven (talk) 13:55, 27 July 2010 (UTC)

(Ec)As ever it's about decent and reliable sourcing of significant facts and opinions, whether in terms of actual, practical links, or of analysis that makes more theoretical connections between the two groups and their agendas. Same for anything about links to other political agendas. Hints and speculation aren't enough. As a side-note, I'm still a little bemused by the efforts of each group to disassociate themselves from the other and to claim the moral high ground. But there you go. N-HH talk/edits 13:56, 27 July 2010 (UTC)

Then you should check this out (which has not been allowed in the articel by the way) http://www.dailystar.co.uk/news/view/105162/Oh-it-s-our-fault-is-it-mr-griffin-We-cop-the-blame/ its a hum dinger.Slatersteven (talk) 14:00, 27 July 2010 (UTC)

Actually, it has been allowed. It was taken to three or four noticeboards, but they all approved it. Someone obviously removed it anyway. --FormerIP (talk) 14:14, 27 July 2010 (UTC)

Actually there was rejection at most or all noticeboards, plenty of it if I remember, that was why it was dragged round multiple noticeboards by Slater, accompanied by FormerIP (correct me if I am wrong) and I for one got a bit bored of it and they must have finally added it, yes they were using this daily star source as well and going a around saying how it was a great reliable source...absolute twaddle, opinionated twaddle as I say likely dreamt up in some corner of a very dark room using a searchlight and with rumors originating from Unite_Against_Fascism members, hilarious, keep it in there because it helps people to see just how POV and biased and false this article is, hilarious. Off2riorob (talk) 15:48, 27 July 2010 (UTC)

Actually WP does allow a lot of these types of publications as RS: The Sun, Fox News, The Washington Times. TFD (talk) 16:05, 27 July 2010 (UTC)

IN fact one of the sources was Mr Darbys own blog which has the live interview between himslef and Mr Griffin in his car.Slatersteven (talk) 16:05, 27 July 2010 (UTC)

Actually there is at least a general position that we should use the highest quality citations, as such the daily mirror and the sun and the star are quite regularly recently rejected and removed. Users reveal themselves easily in this way, they support such low grade citations as the daily mirror when it supports their POV and they reject them when it doesn't. 16:07, 27 July 2010 (UTC)

IN fact..mr derbys own blog, what did he say, the EDF is a branch of the BNP, no he did not because it is not and it is so many times refuted and denied, you might think it is true but it absolutely is not a generally held position at all it the real world and as I say, keep it, enjoy it, add some more, claims. go ahead make my day. Off2riorob (talk) 16:10, 27 July 2010 (UTC)

I was not aware I was saying he said that. What he (mr Griffin) says is what the star reports him as saying, that the EDL is a zionist false flag operation (et all).Slatersteven (talk) 16:14, 27 July 2010 (UTC)

So how many people would oppose the removal of this section from the article? It seems like the best option. BritishWatcher (talk) 12:44, 28 July 2010 (UTC)

Mediation

Just to let everyone know a mediation request has been opened here BritishWatcher (talk) 14:47, 27 July 2010 (UTC)

Just to say, I have requested this process to get an independent and neutral perspective on the issue of "reliability of sources" and the appropriate use or rejection of the references. Reading the whole discussion page, I am convinced if no consensus could be reached for months, it is wishful thinking it will happen within this active group of editors.
This is the last chance to resolve this issue logically and rationally. I do not have the time to spend arguing with bigoted individuals. But I do not quit on the face of unfairness. This is no exception. Awmyth (talk) 17:38, 27 July 2010 (UTC)

The realistic place to get those opinions is on the NPOVN and RSN boards. But, fair enough, if you want to go to mediation. On the other hand calling us all bigoted is, well, hardly the language of someone open to constructive mediation. --Errant Tmorton166^(Talk) 17:56, 27 July 2010 (UTC)

Well when you have finished insulting us all there is a debate below on use of far right or right wing, something you felt strongly about. There is a poll above on what type of entity to describe the EDL as (movement, group, organisation) along with if it should mention its political. You could contribute to those sections to help influence the article rather than simply continue to get yourself into trouble by attacking editors. BritishWatcher (talk) 18:01, 27 July 2010 (UTC)

As most seem to support the path of mediation, are all of the debates above and below about potential changes now void? There is no point in us debating and agreeing to make changes now, if the whole thing is being questioned and challenged during mediation. BritishWatcher (talk) 23:51, 27 July 2010 (UTC)

We may not get to mediation, since there is at least one clear objector at the moment. --FormerIP (talk) 23:52, 27 July 2010 (UTC)

As above. Plus there is no harm in completing discussions here too and seeing where that leaves us - if the result is that mediation is pointless then so be it. I also have a feeling that a couple of people just will not drop it even if we hit consenss. Perhaps if a weak consensus comes to the fore here on the talk page a mediator can comment on that. --Errant Tmorton166^(Talk) 23:56, 27 July 2010 (UTC)

Far right or Right wing

Whilst there are sources to back up Far right being used in the introduction, as several editors seem concerned about its use (and its come up several times) i have spent a little while looking through usage by media organisations. I think there may be a case to change far right to right-wing which seems to be used a lot too and backed up by a wider range of media sources (including the Mail, Telegraph, Express which are not left wing papers).

If "right wing" is just as bad to those opposing "far right" we may as well not even bother discussing this, but if the change would satisfy some editors concerns i would be prepared to support the change.

Whilst some of these organisations may also refer to the group as far right, ive found the following where the EDL or their protesters are just described as right wing. Daily Mail [25] [26], Daily Telegraph [27], Daily Express (Describes activists as far right, but the group as right-wing in the same article)[28], The Times [29] , BBC (right-wing protesters) [30] [31], Sky News (Right-Wing protests) [32][33] and (controversial right-wing group) [34] , Evening Standard (right wing protesters) [35] .

Those will do for now. As i said before there are plenty of sources to back up use of far right, i came across ones including The Sun and Evening Standard, along with the guardian which has already been mentioned often and the BBC and Sky along with the express have also mentioned "far right" . Seen as some people in the debate above have questioned use of far right, i think its worth us debating this matter properly or to hold a vote on it like we are with other parts of the introduction above. But again if "right wing" is just as problematic as "far right" then there is no point. Both terms are absolutely justified, ill only support a change if it creates a wider consensus and deals with some peoples concerns. BritishWatcher (talk) 16:27, 27 July 2010 (UTC)

• Far right per previous discussion, consensus, and multiple reliable sources. The goal here isn't to satisfy editors with a POV to push, but to write an encyclopaedia according to reliable sources, the vast majority of which have and continue to label this group as a far right political one. Why do we have to go through this rubbish again? Verbal chat 16:32, 27 July 2010 (UTC)

Right wing covers a very broad spectrum, while far-right is more specific. All the broadsheets and other source material uses "far right" and it is the main designation in the investigatory piece in the Guardian. Attempting to compromise sources on that reduces rather than increases the possibility of a wider consensus. Verbal, would you tone down the language a bit please, we have been making progress today --Snowded ^TALK 16:33, 27 July 2010 (UTC)

True right wing is less specific, but that would make it less controversial and problematic, and people can judge the group more from the rest of the article rather than how the media describe it. It is certainly the case there are plenty of sources to back up Far right and i have no problem keeping the present term. Having this debate now and getting it over and done with one way or another can atleast show the current use is justified and its not "some editors" and their personal POVs as has been claimed. BritishWatcher (talk) 16:48, 27 July 2010 (UTC)

Right wing would be plenty, basically they are worried about mass immigration of the muslim people and the immense and recent mass changes to population demographics in some England cities. And they go on marches about it, they are not exactly far right Nazis are they. Actually if the Anti fascist league had not come disrupting them there would not even be any controversy. What is far right about saying, hello my town is being invaded by people from Pakistan? Off2riorob (talk) 16:36, 27 July 2010 (UTC)

Actually, I think that comment is pretty far right (in that the BNP or National front would say it, but the Conservative Party would not). Would you mind removing it from the talk page, please. --FormerIP (talk) 16:55, 27 July 2010 (UTC)

The talk page is not for discussing the rights and wrongs of immigration policy or the factual nature of your last sentence Rob, its for discussing evidence --Snowded ^TALK 16:39, 27 July 2010 (UTC)

we should go with what the bulk of sources call themSlatersteven (talk) 16:38, 27 July 2010 (UTC)

yea, evil flag waving Nazis. Off2riorob (talk) 16:41, 27 July 2010 (UTC)

• Motion to close per Godwin's Law. /thread Verbal chat 16:42, 27 July 2010 (UTC)

OK list,list all the source that call them far riight, then all the sources that call tehm right wing and see which is more commonly used?Slatersteven (talk) 16:47, 27 July 2010 (UTC)

(EC) The suggestion that "all broadsheets" and other mainstream news sources [always] call them far right is simply not accurate. As noted above, and as per several sources I recall highlighting a while back, many papers sometimes use the broader "right wing" - a spectrum that includes the far right of course. Possibly for reasons of variety if nothing else, who knows, and it's quite likely they mean to imply that they still fall within the extreme end of the right wing. A rough guesstimate would say that 97% of articles refer to them as "right wing", while 60% of articles use the "far right", separately or in addition. Either description probably follows the majority of sources, but it seems obvious to me which description better follows the sources, and also includes the "far right" within it, by implication. I think the vagueness, or rather broadness, is in this case a bonus, as it means we're uncontroversially covering all the options. Attribution can be used for more specific claims of being "far right" (we're not short of them, after all). N-HH talk/edits 16:49, 27 July 2010 (UTC)

(ec)I see it more as a matter of precision. If all the national newspapers use "far right" and also at times use "right wing" then the former is a more precise definition. The context of the use of "right wing" would also have to be examined, it looks to me like a watering down. If it is a serious proposal then I would want to start to argue to add in "extremist" as that is also used in the sources --Snowded ^TALK 16:52, 27 July 2010 (UTC)

As long as any lables are propley attributed (as per policy) no probloms. But I will say agai we should call thyem what the majority of sources call them.Slatersteven (talk) 17:01, 27 July 2010 (UTC)

Here is some "Far right" usage - Telegraph [36] , BBC [37] , Express (far right activists) [38] , The Guardian [39] , The sun [40], Evening Standard [41] , The Times (far right protesters) [42] . There are more, but those are just a quick few. Like i said before, when it comes to sources either Right Wing / Far right are justified. BritishWatcher (talk) 17:04, 27 July 2010 (UTC)

The term "far right" has a clear meaning, while "right-wing" does not. Yes, it means that they are grouped with the BNP and the French National Front, which is how they are seen in the media. There strategy of direct action separates them from UKIP. TFD (talk) 17:15, 27 July 2010 (UTC)

Yes, I think right wing is slightly inaccurate because their issues are on the far right. Right wing covers far right and centre right. Bearing that in mind it seems sensible, to my mind, to be as specific as possible (based on the sources). If a reasonable number of sources refer to the movement as far right it seems a justified term. --Errant Tmorton166^(Talk) 18:04, 27 July 2010 (UTC)

If right-wing papers like the Telegraph and the Express, along with the BBC, regard the group as far-right. It makes sense. --Omar418 (talk) 00:18, 28 July 2010 (UTC)

Demonstrations Table

Okay I have made up a table of demonstrations based on the references in the main article. Where information was lacking I have added my own references. A BBC report and a Sky News report. I think this should go below a paragraph dealing wioth violent incidents, abusive behaviour and intimidation. These would include the points on death threats. "Aggro" at demonstrations and noted points of violent intimidation. This should help sort out the Activities section a little.

Date	Town/City	Attendance	Arrests At Event (includes non-EDL)
8th August 2009	Birmingham	Unknown	35
5th September 2009	Birmingham	Unknown	90
13th September 2009	London	Unknown	Zero
10th October 2009	Manchester	700	48
31st October 2009	Leeds	900	8
5th December 2009	Nottingham	500	11
23rd January 2010	Stoke-on-Trent	1500	17
20th March 2010	Bolton	2000	74
3rd April 2010	Dudley	2000	Unknown
1st May 2010	Aylesbury	800	12
17 July 2010	Dudley	500	21

--Omar418 (talk) 07:39, 28 July 2010 (UTC)

Nice work! Couple of quick thoughts: I presume "N/A" is "not available"? It might be better to use "unknown": "N/A" could appear to be "not applicable", suggesting that no one attended, whereas it's obvious (from the arrests) that some people did attend. Also, is it possible (for that matter, is it desirable?) to have two sets of arrests - for EDL and non-EDL? As it is it might appear to make the EDL look bad by possibly suggesting that all arrests are EDL arrests. I realise the column header specifies both, but a casual reader might miss that. TFOWR 07:58, 28 July 2010 (UTC)

Given the evidence you would need three columns EDL/non-EDL/unassigned as different reports have different levels of data --Snowded ^TALK 07:59, 28 July 2010 (UTC)

It is annoying that you can't get the arrests for each group down but even figures that state each group are approximated. I think its quicker to disclaim which group the arrests were appropriated to. The only place we have figures for that is Bolton. --Omar418 (talk) 08:26, 28 July 2010 (UTC)

(ec):Looks a good job to me - I am happy for that to go into the main article --Snowded ^TALK 07:59, 28 July 2010 (UTC)

Very nice, support that being included. I too think "Unknown" would be better than N/A in this case. I would still support a fourth column where a basic description of what happened in each event could be stated. It could state there if most of the arrests were UAF rather than EDL etc. BritishWatcher (talk) 08:26, 28 July 2010 (UTC)

Edited the N/A to unknown but a fifth column I don't know. What would you call it? Whats the word limit? --Omar418 (talk) 08:32, 28 July 2010 (UTC)

Well this is the sort of thing i had in mind (just example text)

Date	Town/City	Attendance	Arrests (includes non-EDL)	Description of Event
8th August 2009	Birmingham	Unknown	35	EDL and UAF protesters clashed in New Street, with trouble flaring around 7pm. Bottles, sticks and banners were thrown as police in riot gear struggled to stop the skirmishes. There were 35 arrests, mainly for disorder and atleast 3 people were injured before most of the violence was brought under control by 8.30pm.

Along those lines. BritishWatcher (talk) 08:39, 28 July 2010 (UTC)

That would be great if we have access to stats like that it would even up the table considerably. Just wshen it comnes to including to details I'm not the best at drawing a line. Are they real stats or you just make them up? --Omar418 (talk) 08:52, 28 July 2010 (UTC)

Completely made up the whole paragraph. But having a description column like that means we can include detailed information (a few rows at most) if there are sources and dont have to worry if none are available which would be a problem with having separate columns for other things like number of individual EDL / UAF arrests etc which in many cases probably are not declared. We could also link to the violent (serious) incident section where the biggest protests are explained in more detail. BritishWatcher (talk) 08:55, 28 July 2010 (UTC)

I put in some basics of the actual incident in the example above. On my screen it looks fine but i guess for some who have their pages more zoomed in it may be too large and would have to contain less text for it to fit in the current article without taking up too much room. BritishWatcher (talk) 10:06, 28 July 2010 (UTC)

Date	Town/City	Attendance	Arrests At Event (includes non-EDL)	Description of Event
8th August 2009	Birmingham	Unknown	35	Clashed with UAF supporters [25][26]
5th September 2009	Birmingham	Unknown	90	Clashes with socialist protestors[29], West Midlands police claims "No intent to protest" [34]
13th September 2009	London	Unknown	Zero	Counter demonstration to pro=Palestinian rally. Chants of "We hate Muslims" and "Muslim Bombers off our streets."[9]
10th October 2009	Manchester	700	48	Counter-protested by 1400 UAF. Riot police on hand to seperate sides.[35]
31st October 2009	Leeds	900	8	Counter-protested by 1500 UAF. Leeds council and West Yorkshire Police thank all participants..[37][38]
5th December 2009	Nottingham	500	11	Demonstration following Mercian Regiment homecoming parade, clashes with Asian students and UAF. Policing cost estimated at £1 million..[39]
23rd January 2010	Stoke-on-Trent	1500	17	EDL break through police lines, injure police officers and damage police vehicles.[40]
20th March 2010	Bolton	2000	74	Counter-protested by 1500 UAF, 1300 police dispatched at a cost of £300 000.[43] 55 arrested from UAF and around 9 from EDL..[45][46][47][48] Policeman states "we have seen groups of people, predominantly associated with the UAF, engaging in violent confrontation."[48]
3rd April 2010	Dudley	2000	Unknown	Several EDL supporters knocked down fencing and escaped the police cordon.[50]
1st May 2010	Aylesbury	800	12	Peaceful protest against militant Islam. Eight of the arrests on suspiscion of carrying an offensive weapon.
17 July 2010	Dudley	500	21	Hindu Temple attacked along with shops, restaurants, cars and residential homes by a group that broke off from the main demonstration.

Alright then...how's that for a start? --Omar418 (talk) 10:46, 28 July 2010 (UTC)

looks excellent to me - a lot better than what exists at the moment --Errant Tmorton166^(Talk) 10:50, 28 July 2010 (UTC)

I agree this is far better and easier to follow. Where we have some kind of information as to who was arrested it should be included (by that I mean groups not person) as we appear to have. I would add there were they were part of a larger demo this should be noted, rather them make it seem like EDL alone.Slatersteven (talk) 11:08, 28 July 2010 (UTC)

Have amended Bolton to highlight UAF arrests. How do you mean part of a larger demo and not the EDL alone? --Omar418 (talk) 11:45, 28 July 2010 (UTC)

This http://www.mpacuk.org/story/040610/zionist-federation-and-edl-unite-against-muslims.html http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/10222035 So this should be in the table.Slatersteven (talk)

I do not think that should be included in this table. It should be just about clearly sourced EDL protests. We could have a disclaimer above or below the table pointing out this may not be a complete list of EDLs activities, just well sourced EDL led events. BritishWatcher (talk) 11:50, 28 July 2010 (UTC)

Agree, first off MPAC isn't an impartial source and has a lot of opinion and propaganda in there. Secondly, theres nothing there to links the EDl is a few sympathetic Zionists. They may be members they may not. Nothing is openly stated and we shouldn't be looking to report clandestine stuff. If we did that we could go ON and ON! --Omar418 (talk) 11:57, 28 July 2010 (UTC)

Looks good, it is so much better than the huge block of text currently in the article, some additional info could be included in the description column, but that is fine for the time being. BritishWatcher (talk) 11:50, 28 July 2010 (UTC)

Violent & Inappropriate Behaviour Section?

I've drafted this up. I'm sure it can be discussed:

The group states that its aim is to demonstrate peacefully in English cities,[10] but conflicts with Unite Against Fascism (UAF) and other opponents have led to street violence and arrests, resulting in some EDL marches being banned.[8] There is normally heavy policing of these demonstrations due to the likelihood of violence and the cost of policing these has ranged from £300,000[43] to £1m.[39] Journalists that have covered EDL marches have received death threats.[23] Guardian journalist Jason N. Parkinson wrote about receiving a death threat by email from someone he described as an EDL organiser, as well as death threats sent to Marc Vallée, a fellow journalist.[24] The National Union of Journalists also released a statement about journalists who had been intimidated after covering EDL marches.[23]

Four specialist national police units involved in policing hooliganism, extreme violence, and terrorism are investigating the EDL. After their second demonstration in Birmingham Assistant Chief Constable Sharon Rowe of West Midlands Police: "Really, there was no intent to protest. It think they knew that the community was very much against them coming to the city, which...potentially would generate violence".[34]

Before their Manchester demonstration of October 2009, the EDL held a press conference, during which they burned a Nazi flag and asserted that "There is no militant undertone. We will peacefully protest but we will not be scared into silence". In the press conference, the EDL wore black balaclavas and T-shirts with the name of different EDL divisions on the back. They justified wearing balaclavas by suggesting that the burqa was just as intimidating a garment. In response to the suggestion that EDL had been described as a drinking club with a website, the members laughed.[5][10] In Swansea on 17 October 2009, Nazi salutes were made during the first demonstration by the Welsh Defence League.[36]

In Stoke-on-Trent in January 2010, EDL members broke through police lines and there was a fracas in which four police officers were injured (two of whom needed hospital treatment) and police vehicles damaged.[40] In March 2010 in Bolton, 74 people were arrested in the demonstrations; reports state that at least 55 of the arrested were from the UAF and nine from the EDL.[45][46][47][48] At their second Dudley protest, on July 2010 a group broke off and attacked a Hindu Temple.[57] The leader of Dudley council, Anne Milward, stated later "We are extremely saddened that Dudley has again been targeted by the English Defence League. Yet again this group of outside extremists have shown they are incapable of demonstrating peacefully and have brought public disorder and violence to our town."

The EDL plan to hold further demonstrations in Bradford and Tower Hamlets after the Guardian revealed that the EDL were plan to target some of the UK's highest-profile Muslim communities and "hit" places like Bradford.[54]

• This should be saved for the views and reactions section in my opinion: The creation of an EDL "Jewish division" in June 2010 was condemned by the Israeli newspaper Haaretz[56] --Omar418 (talk) 08:21, 28 July 2010 (UTC)

Again, its a good job and I agree in the Jewish division location--Snowded ^TALK 08:40, 28 July 2010 (UTC)

Good start. I'd say that The EDL plan to hold further demonstrations in Bradford and Tower Hamlets.... fails WP:FUTURE and that members were shown to include a Scottish Asian man with a Rangers flag is not especially notable (IIRC when I reviewed the source that had been cherry picked). --Errant Tmorton166^(Talk) 09:17, 28 July 2010 (UTC)

Very good yes. Id leave out the whole second paragraph. Unless a more detailed paragraph on the BBC documentary is possible. BritishWatcher (talk) 09:26, 28 July 2010 (UTC)

Second para cut out as I agree. It was a good documentary but there wasn't enough substance to merit its inclusion on this section. --Omar418 (talk) 10:52, 28 July 2010 (UTC)

I have to ask one question how is burning the Nazi flag or planning demonstations that are yet to be banned Inappropriate Behaviour?Also source 57 does not support the assertion made that a group of EDl supporters broke off ans attacked the Hindoo temple, at least as far as I can see (in fact we need a neew source as it makes no mention of the attack).Slatersteven (talk) 11:13, 28 July 2010 (UTC)

http://www.stourbridgenews.co.uk/news/8283497.EDL_protest_bill_tops_half_a_million_pounds/ I think this is the source we need. I thought I hade referenced it. On the burning of the flag, yeah I kinda rushed thos together before breakfast. Felt it was inappropriate in that they a) compare the burka to the balaclave and b) have nazi salutes at their next demo. Also to "hit" places like Bradford and Tower Hamlets implies the use of force. --Omar418 (talk) 11:23, 28 July 2010 (UTC)

The source these occured away from the main demmo, not that they were casued by a breakaway group, also the sources niether says (nor intimates) that the EDL were responsible. Thus whilst we can say that "away from the main demmo a hindoo temple was attacked" we should also say that "police have not attributed this to the EDl". Its also cystal balling, adn we do not do that. waite untill; after the eventy a report it do not try and predict what the evetn will be like.Slatersteven (talk) 11:47, 28 July 2010 (UTC)

We shouldn't say anything that is not supported by the source, which would include "police have not attributed this to the EDL". Perhaps they have - it obvious way they might not feel it necessary to make this explicit. --FormerIP (talk) 11:56, 28 July 2010 (UTC)

Agreed; also I am not sure the suggested section header is appropriate given the contents of the section anyway. In terms of the balaclava/bhurka comparison - it might well be inappropriate, but we could really do with a source that says so. --Errant Tmorton166^(Talk) 11:57, 28 July 2010 (UTC)

Fact is a Hindu temple got attacked when the EDL had a demonstration next to it and after a group broke away from that demonstration. Its part and parcel of the events of the day. Balaclava/Burka sure but its more that in context with the Swansea demonstration where there are Nazi salutes there is the burning of a Nazi flag and a rejection of Nazis the week before it. This show the mixture of beliefs in the group. Its quite a molotov.. --Omar418 (talk) 12:04, 28 July 2010 (UTC)

The sources says it occured away from the main demmo, not next to it. It does not say anything about a break away group (and certainly not a break away group from the EDl demmo, it makes no claim as to who atracekd the temple).Slatersteven (talk) 12:21, 28 July 2010 (UTC)

Okay so, we don't say those things. --FormerIP (talk) 12:59, 28 July 2010 (UTC)

Would like to open up suggestions for a name for the section. i'm Going with "Violent and Questionable Behaviour" --Omar418 (talk) 12:08, 28 July 2010 (UTC)

What types of behaviour do we have in RSs, all in all. That overview might help with the naming. --FormerIP (talk) 12:17, 28 July 2010 (UTC)

if its called that we can only include that.Slatersteven (talk) 12:23, 28 July 2010 (UTC)

Straw polls

There are three straw polls, above. I apologise for the lack of advance warning - I should have let you all know yesterday - but I'm planning on closing the polls in one hour, i.e. at around 11:30am BST (10:30 UTC). TFOWR 09:40, 28 July 2010 (UTC)

Running a wee bit late, but hoping to close before mid-day. TFOWR 10:43, 28 July 2010 (UTC)

All closed now. I'd imagine you will all want to congratulate me on the wisdom and diplomacy I've exercised, and I'd suggest that this section might be the best place to do just that. I can't think what else you might wish to say in that regard, however I never fail to be impressed by the imagination and creativity of Wikipedia editors, so I accept that there may be things to wish to say about my closures that I've not considered. You may find these useful: {{minnow}} and {{trout}}. I'm going to be offline for the next hour, so don't feel in any way restricted in the fulsomeness of your praise for me ;-) TFOWR 11:08, 28 July 2010 (UTC)

i am ok with the outcomes of the strawpolls and your conclusions on it so i guess i cant use the trout today :( So the new wording for the introduction should be...

"The English Defence League is an English far-right single issue group formed in 2009" .

Its short, clear and to the point and should be introduced to the article. This can then be debated again during mediation if people have big concerns. BritishWatcher (talk) 11:43, 28 July 2010 (UTC)

You are truely an arromatic god amoung men .Slatersteven (talk) 11:50, 28 July 2010 (UTC)

Works for me. {{barracuda}}. --FormerIP (talk) 11:51, 28 July 2010 (UTC)

Agree that wording --Snowded ^TALK 11:52, 28 July 2010 (UTC)

Where's Off2Rio? --Omar418 (talk) 12:09, 28 July 2010 (UTC)

I'm around. I didn't much support the creation of these straw polls and the way they were framed and I also didn't see any need to rush to closure so I have restricted my involvement so as not to give the impression of support for the process. Off2riorob (talk) 12:29, 28 July 2010 (UTC)

Fair point, but I think this gives us something we can work with that we're broadly happy with, even if it's not ideal (and - covering my backside - "I take no view as to whether the new lead is or is not ideal"). All this represents is the current consensus among a small group of editors. Consensus can and usually does change, and consensus in a wider forum would override any consensus here, etc etc. In other words - this isn't set in stone, but it's a useful jumping-off point for further work on the article. TFOWR 12:43, 28 July 2010 (UTC)

• I assume the existing references are OK? Can you all check that you're happy with the references I've used in the edit request below, and shout loudly and early if you're not happy. TFOWR 12:55, 28 July 2010 (UTC)

Edit request

Could a non-involved admin please edit the lead to incorporate the text BritishWatcher proposes above? Note that the discussion follows on from three straw polls (above): you may wish to consider whether the three polls were appropriately closed. Thanks! TFOWR 12:39, 28 July 2010 (UTC)

Detailed request: please replace:

The '''English Defence League''' (EDL) is an [[Far right in the United Kingdom|English far-right]] single-issue political<ref>[http://www.warringtonguardian.co.uk/news/whereilive/8273411.Racist_graffiti_is_shame_of_Padgate</ref><ref>[http://www.uxbridgegazette.co.uk/west-london-news/local-uxbridge-news/2010/06/30/anti-islamic-group-blamed-for-st-george-s-day-riot-in-ruislip-113046-26759981/</ref><!-- The following references all attribute political designations to the group, hence support the text: <ref name=Newsnight /><ref name="BBC 20091012" /><ref name=Times1 />{{Failed verification|date=July 2010}} <ref name=HarrowTimes1 />{{Failed verification|date=July 2010}} <ref name=BirminghamPost2 /><ref name=SkyNews1 /><ref name=Independent1 /> --> or "quasi-political"<ref>http://www.dailymail.co.uk/home/moslive/article-1238213/This-England-On-trail-English-Defence-League.html</ref> street movement formed in 2009.

...with:

The '''English Defence League''' (EDL) is an [[Far right in the United Kingdom|English far-right]] single issue group formed in 2009.<ref>[http://www.warringtonguardian.co.uk/news/whereilive/8273411.Racist_graffiti_is_shame_of_Padgate</ref><ref>[http://www.uxbridgegazette.co.uk/west-london-news/local-uxbridge-news/2010/06/30/anti-islamic-group-blamed-for-st-george-s-day-riot-in-ruislip-113046-26759981/</ref>

TFOWR 12:49, 28 July 2010 (UTC)