Talk:Homeopathy

Please read before starting First of all, welcome to Wikipedia's homeopathy article. This article represents the work of many contributors and much negotiation to find consensus for an accurate and complete representation of the topic. Newcomers to Wikipedia and this article may find that it's easy to commit a faux pas. That's OK — everybody does it! You'll find a list of a few common ones you might try to avoid here. A common objection made often by new arrivals is that the article presents homeopathy in an unsympathetic light and that criticism of homeopathy is too extensive or violates Wikipedia's Neutral Point of View policy (WP:NPOV). The sections of the WP:NPOV that apply directly to this article are: NPOV: Pseudoscience NPOV: Undue weight NPOV: Making necessary assumptions NPOV: Giving "equal validity". &WP:OR The contributors to the article continually strive to adhere to these to the letter. Also, splitting the article into sub-articles is governed by the Content forking guidelines. These policies have guided the shape and content of the article, and new arrivals are strongly encouraged to become familiar with them prior to raising objections on this page or adding content to the article. Other important policies guiding the article's content are No Original Research (WP:NOR) and Cite Your Sources (WP:CITE). Some common points of argument are addressed at Wikipedia's Homeopathy FAQ. Tempers can and have flared here. All contributors are asked to please respect Wikipedia's policy No Personal Attacks (WP:NPA) and to abide by consensus (WP:CON). This talk page is to discuss the text, photographs, format, grammar, etc of the article itself and not the inherent worth of homeopathy. See WP:NOT. If you wish to discuss or debate the validity of homeopathy or promote homeopathy please do so at google groups or other fora. This "Discussion" page is only for discussion on how to improve the Wikipedia article. Any attempts at trolling, using this page as a soapbox, or making personal attacks may be deleted at any time.

Swimming pool nonsense

• Drop volume

A swimming pool sized volume of diluent is not required to make homeopathic remedies. Only very modest quanities are really required. Here are two examples.

• Because 20 drops = 1 ml

[1] so a 30c requires 30 x 100 drops of 30% alcohol = 3000 drops = 150ml

• A 200c potency requires 200 x 100 drops of EtOH which is 20,000 drops = 1 litre of EtOH

The 100 drops of 30c can moisten many phials of lactose pills; for each 7gram bottle, only 3 drops are required. Therefore the 100 drops of 30c can produce 33-34 7g bottles of remedy. So all the talk of swimming pools is nonsense and is an analogy only found in the works of critics and sceptics of homeopathy. Mathematically it may seem credible, but it is absurd precisely because it is not how remedies are prepared in reality.

The idea has been proposed many times in the last 100 years or so, always coming from the scoffers.

• Oceans

"This process of dilution and succussion is repeated as often as 12C which is the equivalent of a pinch of salt in both North and South Atlantic Oceans! Dr Schuessler's tissue salts have a common 6X inscribed on the bottles or 1 part in a million, or 1 teaspoonful in a bathful of water. A dilution of 12X would be the equivalent of a teaspoonful of the original mother tincture in a mass the size of the Empire State Building, (Homeopathy Investigated, A.D. Bambridge RGN, p. 9)." [2]

• Lake Geneva

"Hahnemann believed that the more it was diluted, the more potent or effective it became. He was once asked if he could cure a serious epidemic by pouring a bottle of the correct poison into Lake Geneva and allowing the world to take of its substance. He replied "If I could shake Lake Geneva 60 times, then yes, I would do this." (Ibid, p. 4)" [3]

Therefore, it is clear that this analogy with a swimming pool is highly misleading and probably pretty useless as a serious addition to this article. I would say it serves no useful purpose as any kind of elucidation of actual homeopathic processes. Peter morrell 07:05, 8 March 2008 (UTC)

You say that it only comes from the fact-based sources that aren't trying to sell people something, as if that's a bad thing. Randy Blackamoor (talk) 07:21, 8 March 2008 (UTC)

Thanks, Peter, that makes it clear that variants on this are a well established critique of the dilution, and Hahnemann's response is a useful way of setting it in context. Do you consider that site a reliable source, or do you have another source for the story? ... dave souza, talk 09:47, 8 March 2008 (UTC)

Here is another [4] and there are a few others but the same idea is presented ad nauseam. Hahnemann suggested 60 succussions as a standard sometime in the 1830s, but then he changed his mind on that and decided 2 or 3 succussions was sufficient so it goes. The emphasis, for attack, has always been on the dilution and the incredulity folks express about such doses ever having any possible therapeutic effect is of course laughed out of court and has been since Hahnemann's day.

Regarding Randy's point about profit, well just look at allopathic medicine please and check out the massive drug company profits which bankrolls every so-called drug trial on this planet. Is that fair or is it biased? so the argument that homeopathy is a rip-off backfires on allopathy just the same. What is not used for profit in this world? Saying something is a rip-off does not of its own invalidate it. just 2 cents. Peter morrell 09:59, 8 March 2008 (UTC)

What's been "laughed out of court"? What court? By who? What are you talking about? What is "allopathic medicine?" Do you mean "actual medicine?" Please do not use slur terms on this page. Most drug research is funded by the US government, not drug companies, and another difference is that a number of people on this talk page are selling homeopathic products, while no one here works for a drug company. Essentially, you and the other homeopathy proponents are either wildly misinformed, or lying, about pretty much everything you say, which should come as no surprise. Randy Blackamoor (talk) 10:20, 8 March 2008 (UTC)

Allopathic is no longer considered a slur. Anthon01 (talk) 16:16, 8 March 2008 (UTC)

I did not know that about 'Most drug research is funded by the US government, not drug companies'. Do you have a source for that? The Tutor (talk) 10:43, 8 March 2008 (UTC)

Of course, any drug company research done in the US is partially funded and encouraged by the US federal government and US state governments and local governments through tax policies and other policies. So this has a huge multiplier effect. In certain parts of the US, one can find drug company labs from every drug company on the face of the earth, even if they do not sell much product in the US (like New Jersey for example, but there are several other places)--Filll (talk) 14:02, 8 March 2008 (UTC)

Oh I see; do those tax breaks form most of the funding for drug companies in the US then? The Tutor (talk) 16:25, 8 March 2008 (UTC)

This is completely off-topic and has nothing to do with this page. If you want to continue baiting and attacking, it might be time for administrative sanctions for your outrageous behavior here. If you are so interested in US and global drug research budgets, why not do a little research yourself? The US federal government medical research budget is maybe 30 billion dollars, and the state and local budgets add to that. The US drug company research budgets are about 31 or 32 billion dollars, and a good fraction of that is paid for or encouraged by tax breaks and tax credits and other inducements. How much would the US drug companies spend without government encouragement? Well that is a good topic for a PhD thesis in economics. But perhaps you can find someone who has already published on this topic. But in any case, it does not belong here on this talk page, and you bringing it up is just an excuse to try to start a viscious fight and engage in foul uncivil behavior. So I am asking you nicely, to just back off. Thanks for your consideration.--Filll (talk) 16:42, 8 March 2008 (UTC)

I certainly do not consider my behaviour outrageous or baiting or attacking or uncivil. I did not bring this up. I asked for clarification of a claim made by Randy. You have answered that now in your own way. Thank you. The Tutor (talk) 17:24, 8 March 2008 (UTC)

Straw man

Let's get this back on track. Right now a straw man is getting battered to death:

• "A swimming pool sized volume of diluent is not required to make homeopathic remedies."

Maybe someone has carelessly used that argument, but it's off track, so forget it and get back on track. The box from above makes the point quite well:

Homeopathic remedies are made from substances that, in undiluted form, cause symptoms similar to the disease they aim to treat. These substances are repeatedly diluted, with shaking at each stage. Three potency scales are in regular use in homeopathy. Hahnemann pioneered and always favored the centesimal or "C scale", diluting a substance 1 part in a 100 of diluent at each stage. A 2C dilution is one where a substance is diluted to one part in one hundred, then one part of that diluted solution is diluted to one part in one hundred. This works out to one part of the original solution to ten thousand parts (100x100) of diluent. A 6C dilution repeats the process six times, ending up with one part in 1,000,000,000,000. (100x100x100x100x100x100, or 1006) Other dilutions follow the same pattern. In homeopathy, a solution is described as higher potency the more dilute it is. Higher potencies - i.e. more dilute substances - are considered to be stronger deep-acting remedies. Hahnemann advocated 30C dilutions for most purposes (a dilution by a factor of 1060) and a common homeopathic treatment for the flu is a 200C dilution of duck liver, called Oscillococcinum in homeopathy. Comparing these levels of dilution to the number of molecules present in the initial solution, a 12C solution contains on average only about one molecule of the original substance. The chances of a single molecule of the original substance remaining in a 15C dilution would be roughly 1 in 2 million, and less than one in a billion billion billion billion (1036) for a 30C solution. For a perspective on these numbers, there are in the order of 1032 molecules of water in an Olympic size swimming pool and if such a pool were filled with a 15C homeopathic remedy, to expect to get a single molecule from the original substance, one would need to swallow 1% of the volume of such a pool, or roughly 25 metric tons of water.

The swimming pool illustration isn't about how much diluent is needed to make a remedy, but is used to illustrate the degree (not volume) of dilutions used in the dilution process, and how much of a volume is needed to even contain one molecule. That's all. Can we let the straw man sleep now and just use the swimming pool to illustrate the degree of dilution? That isn't nonsense, but basic math. The question of succussion is also important, but sometimes things need to be explained individually and in detail first. This one's about dilution. -- Fyslee / talk 07:40, 8 March 2008 (UTC)

Since, in the end, the one molecule isn't important, the illustration isn't important either. Anthon01 (talk) 12:40, 8 March 2008 (UTC)

Okay, now you're just repeating. Take it to WP:NORN. This has been fully discussed on other threads. —Whig (talk) 08:38, 8 March 2008 (UTC)

Repeating? Spreading the discussion to another forum? This is Whig talking? Anyway, glad you think it's been fully discussed, I thought there were some aspects still to be resolved. .. dave souza, talk 09:47, 8 March 2008 (UTC)

One way to justify the analogy would be if it is included as an example of how critics have historically tried to discredit homeopathy. Not sure if that is important though. Anthon01 (talk) 14:53, 8 March 2008 (UTC)

There is a problem with the text in the box above. This part doesn't make sense: "…a 12C solution contains on average only about one molecule of the original substance. The chances of a single molecule of the original substance remaining in a 15C dilution would be roughly 1 in 2 million, and less than one in a billion billion billion billion (1036) for a 30C solution…" We need to know the volume of the solution we're talking about before we can say how many molecules of substance are in it. The 12C solution with only ~1 molecule of original substance in it—is this solution we're talking about a drop? a teaspoon? a swimming pool? an ocean? A one liter solution has 1000X as many molecules as a 1 mL solution. And what about the 15C and 30C solutions? This basic, 9th grade chemistry, not WP:OR, and for the passage to make sense, we need to specify the volumes we're talking about. Yilloslime (t) 20:13, 8 March 2008 (UTC)

Ok a little math: 50mL of 12C potency Natrum muriaticum preparation contains about 1 molecule of Natrum muriaticum (NaCl).

• The 9th grade chemistry: [density (g/cm3)]÷[Molecular weight (g/mol)]×[unit conversion (1000 cm3/L)]÷[Dilution factor (10^(2*"C"))]×[Volume (L)]×[Avogodro's Number (6.022*10^23 molecules/mol)] = Number of molecules in a given volume of a __C preparation of _______.
• Plugging in: (2.16g/cm3)÷(58.442g/mol)×(1000cm3/L)÷(10^24)×(0.050L)×(6.022*10^23 molecules/mole) = 1.11 molecules. QED

Yilloslime (t) 21:44, 8 March 2008 (UTC)

Your math there isn't really representative of reality. For it to work that way, one would have to start off with 1000cm^3 of NaCl, which I doubt is the case. I can't say what exactly homeopaths generally use to start off with, but that seems incredibly unlikely. --Infophile ^{(Talk) (Contribs)} 22:34, 8 March 2008 (UTC)

I'm a chemist, I make dilutions all the time, and this is representative of how you do things. My calcs above assume the "mother" 1C dilution is prepared by taking one volume of NaCl, and diluting it with 99 volumes of diluent, to yield, approximately, 100 volumes of the final solution. "Volumes" could mean any measure of volume: teaspoons, mL, cm3, olympic swimming pools, etc. Yilloslime (t) 23:01, 8 March 2008 (UTC)

Hmm, are you a chemist, or a homeopath? (You may feel free not to answer in order to preserve your anonymity.) I don't want to go assuming from the get-go that how chemists do dilutions and how homeopaths do them is the same. Speaking from a chemistry perspective, though, wouldn't it be equally valid to start the dilution from, say, a 1 Molar solution of NaCl (or whatever)? --Infophile ^{(Talk) (Contribs)} 23:07, 8 March 2008 (UTC)

I'm a chemist, and sorry I was a bit brusk in my previous response. You raise a good point, in that how the math shakes out is going to depend on the how the original mother solution is prepared. One way or another, it's clear that:

• [number of molecules] = [Molarity of "mother solution"] × [Dilution factor] × [Volume in question] × [Avogodro's Number]

But the question is, "what is the molarity of the mother solution?" This article has consistently described volume by volume dilution as the method of preparation, so I've assumed the initial mother solution is the pure substance, and the molarity of a pure substance is a substance's density divided by it's molecule weight (e.g. the molarity of pure water is 55.5 M, a value that should ring a bell to chemists in the room.) So if you where going to make 1C dilution of say, butanol, you'd start with perhaps 10 drops of butanol and add 990 drops of water. But maybe the starting, mother solution is not the pure substances, but rather an already diluted preparation. I must admit, I'm not a homeopath, so I don't for sure. Yilloslime (t) 00:07, 9 March 2008 (UTC)

You are correct about considering molarity. It is a concept that has been lacking from this discussion. Raymond Aritt and I touched on it about 10 days ago, but otherwise its been ignored. Anthon01 (talk) 00:59, 9 March 2008 (UTC)

My understanding from my readings is that often the mother substance is already diluted often (for example, a tincture is often fairly diluted plant material, and that can be used as a mother substance). However, it depends on the remedy. There is a lot of variation.--Filll (talk) 00:15, 9 March 2008 (UTC)

And that's why I've use the specific example of NaCl. Yilloslime (t) 00:27, 9 March 2008 (UTC)

The reference to the swimming pool and other similar analogies provide mis-information to readers. The 200C potency requires simply 200 test tubes of water. Any (!) metaphor that compares the 200C to anything dealing with more water than exists on the planet is simply deceiving. If people want to keep this metaphor, then, perhaps we should now list under every drug that number of molecules in a daily, monthly, or yearly dose (such numbers might scare people, but such numbers are as ludacrous as the metaphor used here as describe, incorrectly, the point of the homeopathic doses. Unless there is strong consensus for keeping this deceiving idea, it should be deleted. DanaUllman^Talk 00:12, 9 March 2008 (UTC)

With all due respect Dr. Ullman, NPOV dictates that this article be written from multiple viewpoints, including those of skeptics and critics.--Filll (talk) 00:15, 9 March 2008 (UTC)

Dana, please feel free to suggest a (preferably cited) alternative that effectively illustrates the extreme dilution of a common preparations. — Scientizzle 00:19, 9 March 2008 (UTC)

Dana, you don't seem to understand the point of the example. No one is saying that preparing a 12C, 15C, 200C, etc dilution requires swimming pools of water. We all know that it doesn't—we get it. And the article makes that clear. The point of the example is to illustrate just how dilute these "potencies" are. It's a lot easier to illustrate the magnitude of dilution by saying it's as dilute as one molecule in a swimming pool versus simply describing 30 serial 1 in 100 dilutions. Yilloslime (t) 00:27, 9 March 2008 (UTC)

I agree with you Filll. I have no problem with good and accurate critique of homeopathy and to references to scientific research that observed negative results. However, I do have a problem with misinformation or information that deceives. Just being critical isn't worthy of an encyclopedia or notable. Unless someone can say why 200 test tubes' worth of water should somehow to equated with more water than exists on our planets, we are doing a disservice to readers. So, Yilloslime, using an illustration that hyper-exaggerates the dilutions used is the problem. Homeopaths agree with skeptics who assert that all homeopathic potencies above the 12C or 24X do not have, in all probability any of the original molecules of the medicinal substance. THAT is an accurate statement...and we could say that...and to many skeptics, this admission is quite damning, though homeopaths assert that the dilutant (the water) is changed. Skeptics of homeopathy have enough to say about this subject without engaging in exaggerated and inaccurate metaphors. DanaUllman^Talk 00:44, 9 March 2008 (UTC)

With all due respect Dr. Ullman, WP is about verifiability and notability, not truth. And if you want to get rid of everything misleading from this article, from some people's perspective, every single homeopathic reference and homeopathic claim would have to be removed. All these different views, whether you personally like them or not, whether you personally agree with them or not, have to be together in this article. You might not like it, but that is Wikipedia. Other Wikis are not organized like this, but that is how Wikipedia is organized. --Filll (talk) 00:53, 9 March 2008 (UTC)

Let's be honest. The reason for using oceans to describe dilutions is to further what critics describe as the "ridiculousness" of homeopathy. There is no other reason for using it. Anthon01 (talk) 00:55, 9 March 2008 (UTC)

Dana, setting aside, for moment, the issue of whether it's relevant to article or is a useful illustration, do you agree or not that if a swimming pool sized 15C remedy could be made, it would contain about 1 molecule of the original substance? Yilloslime (t) 01:00, 9 March 2008 (UTC)

First, "Dr Ullman" in my family is my father. Please refer to me as Dana. Secondly (and more importantly), one can always make anything seem ridiculous...and I agree with Anthon01...the only possible way to use it here in this article is by adding a statement such as, "skeptics of homeopathy try to make homeopathic doses seem ridiculous by alluding to an inaccurate metaphor for its dilutions such as...." Without this introduction, it is simply deceiving and wrong. DanaUllman^Talk 01:04, 9 March 2008 (UTC)

So you don't agree with the general chemistry presented above? Yilloslime (t) 01:10, 9 March 2008 (UTC)

Homeopaths use these kinds of examples as well to illustrate some of what is involved. It is not only done by skeptics, as I have said a bunch of times above (and you can readily find by doing some searching yourself). But even if it is done only by skeptics, only for the purpose of making homeopathy look ridiculous, that is too bad. That is what NPOV is. Learn it, understand it and accept it. Or leave.--Filll (talk) 01:19, 9 March 2008 (UTC)

It's a lot easier to illustrate the magnitude of a 30C dilution (and succussion) by saying that it is created by 30 serial 1 in 100 dilutions - not by saying that it is as dilute as one molecule in a swimming pool. Arion 3x3 (talk) 01:30, 9 March 2008 (UTC)

I disagree. Perhaps I'm not as sophisticated as you, Arion, but for me the swimming pool example is much more understandable than (1/100)^(2*60). And I can't be the only dummy out there, either, hence the swimming pool is example is very useful to have in the article in addition to (1/100)^(2*60). Yilloslime (t) 03:32, 9 March 2008 (UTC)

Yilloslime: In case you've missed it, IMO, the pool example is suppose to be a rebuttal of homeopathy. In fact, it doesn't rebut homeopathy but simply smears it. That, no molecules exist in 30c remedies is a point that homeopathy doesn't refute. A direct rebuttal to it's underlying premise, that molecules of water suffering an after-effect of serial dilutions that leave none of the original solvent, is fair and scholarly. Anthon01 (talk) 03:46, 9 March 2008 (UTC)

Sounds like blatant WP:OR to me. Do you have a WP:RS for that claim of yours? Even if you do (which I doubt), it is basically irrelevant in this case since so many others have resorted to this kind of example.--Filll (talk) 01:45, 9 March 2008 (UTC)

There is nothing wrong with presenting the pool example as long as we follow NOR, V, RS and NPOV. So far I don't see any of these policies being complied to this situation. Were is the verifiable, reliable source? I have been looking but have not found a RS. This is an article on homeopathy. How does this relate to homeopathy? Does it serve to truly discredit homeopathy? Would a serious scientist use this to argue against homeopathy? It seems like it is simply a fact that critics use, but it is a criticism that misses the mark and basically smears homeopathy. Criticism of homeopathy should be directed at the proposed theory, that somehow, an after-effect is left after the mother tincture is diluted out of the final remedy. How homeopathy doesn't comply with our current knowledge of physics is a valid and scholarly point of criticism. Or "Critics use the pool analogy to ..." is possible. So far, the pool analogy as it is used is OR. Anthon01 (talk) 01:47, 9 March 2008 (UTC)

Yes, Robert Park's quote is from a book he wrote, not from a peer-review journal. Is this RS and notable? No one yet has made a case for keeping it. DanaUllman^Talk 02:11, 9 March 2008 (UTC)

Park is a prominent figure and therefore what he writes is notable and suitable as a WP:RS under WP:SPS, even if it was not peer-reviewed (although many science books are peer-reviewed).--Filll (talk) 19:51, 9 March 2008 (UTC)

Well I guess your searching skills appear to be inadequate in this case. Sorry to hear that.--Filll (talk) 02:09, 9 March 2008 (UTC)

You have a way of poking. You are stonewalling. If you have a reference then present it. Anthon01 (talk) 02:18, 9 March 2008 (UTC)

I have plenty of references. Others found them with no problem, as can be seen above. Why can't you? The very wording we use is identical to probably dozens if not hundreds of sources, and we appear to have plagiarized from a textbook, which means I have to change the wording. I will not reveal what I have found until it has all been compiled and edited appropriately. To do otherwise is pointless and will just add fuel to the fire of a huge fight since few if any on this talk page are here for any constructive purposes, as near as I can tell. I am here to write an encyclopedia according to WP principles. Others should examine why they are here, because I see very few others who are here for the same reason I am. And I do not want to be further distracted from doing real work instead of nonsense and fighting. I will note that this text has been fine for months on end and was the text under which this article reached GA status. What is your rush? Just relax. The only reason to lobby for more information on this issue is to use this as an avenue to create some massive ugly disgusting unproductive fight. And that I do not want to do. You are welcome to try to rewrite the entire article in a sandbox according to your own principles if you like and see if you can get support to replace the current article with one of your own design; why not try that if you are so sure you are right? --Filll (talk) 02:30, 9 March 2008 (UTC)

You are stonewalling. I have placed a citation tag on the sentence. You are jaw jawing about a lot of unrelated things. If no citations are presented I will remove the text in a few days. And we are not discussing the entire article, but one point. Which one of your above citations do you consider to be a RS? Lets discuss that. Anthon01 (talk) 02:45, 9 March 2008 (UTC)

An interesting threat, considering your position here.--Filll (talk) 03:49, 9 March 2008 (UTC)

No threat. I am following WP policy and guidelines. The current citations do not support the sentence. Now. Which reference you provided above do you consider a V RS? Anthon01 (talk) 04:24, 9 March 2008 (UTC)

What is the wikipedia policy or guideline that forbids making basic math on numbers on the article? Maybe WP:OR original research, but it's just some math operations that follow naturally from the numbers provided by homepaths. Also, for the citations, I doubt we can find a citation from a scientific paper since they don't publish this sort of stuff (basic math that you can do yourself on the back on an envelope, what is the point of publishing such a thing on a scientific journal), so demanding a scientific journal RS for this is demanding an imposible thing. However, the swimming pool example is widely used by debunkers of homeopathy, so we should put a citation to a verifiable debunking site --Enric Naval (talk) 11:19, 9 March 2008 (UTC)

Let me try to clarify this. By WP policy, we do not need to have a RS source for the swimming pool example. As Enric Naval points out, this is basic math. Just look at the two direct quotations of WP policy I posted above. We can have far far far more advanced mathematics than this swimming pool example in the article as an illustration by WP policy. Sorry if you don't like it, but that is WP policy.

Nevertheless, even though we do not need sources for this example, we do have sources. As pointed out repeatedly above, even with links, dozens if not hundreds of sources. Hahnemann himself talked about a Lake Geneva example (in jest, I gather). People have talked about ocean examples. And many many have talked about pool examples; both debunkers and critics and skeptics, and homeopaths themselves. BOTH. Even if the pool example was just used by skeptics, since it is such a common example, it is probably notable, but it is used by both skeptics and homeopaths, contrary to the nonsense and threats made repeatedly here. But in any case, it does not have to be a notable example for us to use it. And it does not have to be used by both skeptics and homeopaths for us to use it, although it is. And it does not even have to have been published previously for us to use it, but it was.

In fact, it is so close to what was published before that looks to be a piece of plagiarism by User: Wikidudeman that somehow found its way into the article. So I am rewriting it. The one thing we cannot do is engage in plagiarism. But:

• We can make up an example like this ourselves according to WP policy
• We can use an example like this even if there are no RS for its prior publication
• We do not need to have both skeptics and homeopaths use these kinds of examples, but they do
• This example does not have to be notable for us to use it but it is

Get it?--Filll (talk) 14:17, 9 March 2008 (UTC)

Eric: You are allowed to make basic computations. However, More complex calculations, for instance those involving statistics, advanced algebra, or calculus, should not be included, because they require skills that many readers do not possess, or involve a large number of steps that may not be obvious and introduce the possibility of difficult to detect errors. I bet the average reader and many editors here don't have the math skills to compute molecules in serial dilutions.

A V RS citation would solve one problem, but there are others. Another problem I've mentioned numerous times, but since you haven't addressed it here, I'll repeat it. Homeopathy doesn't claim to use solvent molecules (mother tincture) to create an effect. The homeopathic claim is that an after-effect imposed by the mother tincture on molecules of water is the therapeutic agent. But mother tincture molecules are not present after serial dilutions and is of no consequence to homeopathy. So how relevant is this analogy if it doesn't rebut the premise of homeopathy? Please address this issue.

Finally, I agree that one possible way to include this in the article is if it is presented not as a rebuttal, but as a fact used by critics to try to debunk homeopathy. In other words, "Some critics use the analogy of a pool to explain the lack of molecules present in homeopathic remedies." Look, the encyclopedia needs to be accurate. Anthon01 (talk) 14:26, 9 March 2008 (UTC)

Second paragraph reword. Said another way, if homeopathy claimed that molecules of mother tincture were present in the remedies and were providing a therapeutic effect, than the pool analogy would make a great spot-on rebuttal. Anthon01 (talk) 14:51, 9 March 2008 (UTC)

Oh. Sorry. I thought we had already covered this. As far as accepted science goes, the only way a liquid can act is through molecules. (The act of swallowing the liquid can have a psychological effect as well, and solids have a few more possibilities because their molecules can have a stable arrangement.) If homeopathy did not use such extreme dilutions, science would not have such a big problem with it. (There is plenty of scientific criticism of herbalism, for example, but nobody tries to claim that there is no known mechanism.) It is to point out this contrast between known science and homeopathy that it is important to mention that ultramolecular dilutions are commonly used. (The best way to bring across this fact is a legitimate subject of this discussion, of course.) It is precisely because homeopathy "doesn't claim to use solvent molecules" that we have to mention swimming pools (or something equivalent). --Art Carlson (talk) 15:29, 9 March 2008 (UTC)

Some points:

• The swimming pool example does not use any advanced mathematics that is inaccessible to anyone. Everyone knows what the statement "60 percent chance of rain means" for example. And everyone can divide and multiply.
• The passage you quoted is from an essay, not policy or guideline. The passages I quote are from official WP guidelines, and a summary of official WP policy. And they contradict the passage from an unofficial essay you posted. Sorry.
• We do not need a RS, even though they exist. Can you not actually click on the links above? Do you have some sort of infirmity that prevents you from clicking?--Filll (talk) 15:04, 9 March 2008 (UTC)

Now we are talking, sort of. Address the issues I present and I will support the inclusion. Please provide the link to the official WP guidelines, and a summary of official WP policy. The essay I quoted also says, involve a large number of steps that may not be obvious. You didn't address the issue raised in the second paragraph. Anthon01 (talk) 15:15, 9 March 2008 (UTC)

The essay you pulled that from is contradicted by guidelines and policy. I provided these before. Do you not actually read what is posted on the talk page? From Wikipedia:Scientific_citation_guidelines#Examples.2C_derivations_and_restatements

Wikipedia is neither a textbook nor a journal. Nonetheless, in mathematics and the mathematical sciences, it is frequently helpful to quote theorems, include simple derivations, and provide illustrative examples. For reasons of notation, clarity, consistency, or simplicity it is often necessary to state things in a slightly different way than they are stated in the references, to provide a different derivation, or to provide an original example. This is standard practice in journals, and does not make any claim of novelty. In Wikipedia articles this does not constitute original research and is perfectly permissible – in fact, encouraged – provided that a reader who reads and understands the references can easily see how the material in the Wikipedia article can be inferred.

As an example, the article on the Lambda-CDM model quotes values for Hubble parameter h and the fraction of the present universe made up of baryons, Ω_b. For technical reasons having to do with their Fisher matrix, the WMAP collaboration quotes values for h and Ω_bh². The values quoted in the article are more useful for the lay reader. Any reader who looks at the WMAP paper, and has a basic knowledge of error analyses, will understand how to go from one to the other.

From Wikipedia:Attribution#What_is_not_original_research.3F:

Editors may make straightforward mathematical calculations or logical deductions based on fully attributed data that neither change the significance of the data nor require additional assumptions beyond what is in the source. It should be possible for any reader without specialist knowledge to understand the deductions. For example, if a published source gives the numbers of votes cast in an election by candidate, it is not original research to include percentages alongside the numbers, so long as it is a simple calculation and the vote counts all come from the same source. Deductions of this nature should not be made if they serve to advance a position, or if they are based on source material published about a topic other than the one at hand.

I have no idea what you mean by the second paragraph. This example can be provided under a number of rubrics, any one of which is sufficient. This is just wikilawyering and violation of WP:TE and WP:DE and probably calls for a sanction.--Filll (talk) 15:22, 9 March 2008 (UTC)

I don't agree with your claim of TE. Do you read what I post? I have said this many times in different ways in the past day or two, but you have chosen not to address it. Here is the second paragraph again. Homeopathy doesn't claim to use solvent molecules (mother tincture) to create an effect. The homeopathic claim is that an after-effect imposed by the mother tincture on molecules of water is the therapeutic agent. But mother tincture molecules are not present after serial dilutions and is of no consequence to homeopathy. So how relevant is this analogy if it doesn't rebut the premise of homeopathy? Please address this issue.

I have answered this "complaint" dozens of times above. This article has to be written from several viewpoints, including that of the critics and skeptics, which is the mainstream. And what you are advocating would constitute a violation of WP:NPOV (as many of your other positions do as well). Just because you or some homeopaths want to ignore molecules, does not mean that everyone does.--Filll (talk) 15:33, 9 March 2008 (UTC)

I don't believe may position violates NPOV. I have said that I might consider it appropriate to include it as "some critics use the analogy of a pool to explain the lack of molecules ..." Please address this.

So you believe that even though the pool analogy doesn't address the premise of homeopathy, that it should be used anyway? Ok. So I will support your position if the consensus agrees with your POV. I may consider an RfC. Anthon01 (talk) 15:51, 9 March 2008 (UTC)

Before filing an RfC, consider educating yourself. See below. ScienceApologist (talk) 16:00, 9 March 2008 (UTC)

Inability to communicate

Part of the problem here is that homeopathy supporters are generally incapable of discussing the science that is directly relevant to their subject. Anthon01's post that he so desperately wants Filll to comment on is an example of this. I quote it here:

Homeopathy doesn't claim to use solvent molecules (mother tincture) to create an effect. The homeopathic claim is that an after-effect imposed by the mother tincture on molecules of water is the therapeutic agent. But mother tincture molecules are not present after serial dilutions and is of no consequence to homeopathy. So how relevant is this analogy if it doesn't rebut the premise of homeopathy? Please address this issue.

Now, here are the problems:

1. the use of the new term "mother tincture" is a bit absurd. A tincture is simply a solution with alcohol as the solvent. Thus, Anthon01 is adopting a new terminology that is very difficult to follow in the context of his paragraph. Apparently, Anthon01 is not comfortable using the actual chemical terminology, so it is dubious as to whether he is capable of even understanding the points that he is trying to argue against including.
2. The first sentence, if interpreted with the equivalence mother tincture=solvent molecules, states that homeopaths do not believe that solvent molecules create effects. (That is, homeopaths do not "use" the solvent molecules to cure people.) The next sentence says that homeopaths use an "after-effect" of the solvent molecules on the "molecules of water" to be the theraputic agent. Obviously, Anthon01 is confused about the scientific terminology/actual mechanisms involved here. The "molecules of water" in this case are the solvent molecules and therefore are the "mother tincture". So, something went wrong with Anthon01's attempt to talk about science. My personal belief is that "mother tincture" is not referring to the solvent molecules at all (despite Anthon01 explicitly stating this), but rather the solute molecules. This is borne out in the next sentence where Anthon01 declares that the "mother tincture" molecules are "not present" after serial dilutions. Obviously solvent molecules are still present, so Anton01 must be referring to solute molecules. If this is the case (and I'm going to assume it is, because to assume any other way is just patently absurd) then we have to remake the equivalence as "mother tincture"=solute molecules and re-read the paragraph for the comprehension assuming this error. Doing so, we have the new conclusion that Anthon01 is (perhaps?) making that it's the solute molecules creating an "after-effect" on the water molecules ("solvent") that is the "therapeutic agent". I have always been under the impression that this is how homeopaths think homeopathy works after they are made aware of the Avogadro limit and the lack of solute molecules in their remedies. I have had enough discussions with Filll to believe that he too thinks this way. So, if we take Anthon01's first statment to be a misappropriation of solvent and solute, it is simply reiterating a point that Filll already knows and has addressed multiple times in this article and on the water memory article, for example.
3. Anthon01's point then seems to be that since there are no solute molecules left in the substance, homeopaths are only interested in solvent molecules. This is a fine idea (see water memory) but it is patently a-historical and not at all likely to be the way most homeopaths who lack scientific literacy view their art. The fact is that when homeopathy was invented, atomic theory and Avogadro's limit were not known by the people developing homeopathy. They believed that it was the solute that was doing the curing: just that there was such a small amount in it that the harmful effects could be avoided. Now, today, more sophisticated homeopaths who know a little bit of chemistry have realized that 30C dilutions will never have any solute molecules in them: so they change their story and claim that it is the solvent molecules that do the curing and not the solute molecules. Fine: this idea is easily debunked by statisical mechanics, the extreme longevity of atoms/molecules, and the absurdity of a belief in being able to control the arrangements of a liquid through processes that amount to little more than shaking and diluting: but it is definitely a separate belief from the original reason homeopathy was developed. Filll is not talking about water memory when he discusses absurd dilutions: he is pointing out (along with the article) that there simply is no solute molecules in these solutions. That's a well-known scientific fact, though many homeopaths didn't become aware of this until well after science had established this. Whether homeopaths feel this is relevant or not is beside the point: this is not "homeopathopedia". This is a place for reporting the facts: the facts are that the solute is missing from most homeopathic remedies. Fantasies such as "water memory" are not going to get around this.

I think this summarizes why it is so problematic to get into discussions with people who are unfamiliar with the science they are trying to fight against on the talk page. The fringe-promoters basically either have no awareness that points they think confirm their beliefs are already discussed, or they cannot even develop their ideas well enough to make them understandable. Both issues are problems with Anthon01's statement above: his paragraph evinces a sincere lack of scientific literacy to the point of almost being unworthy of comment. We cannot go through a pedagogical deconstruction lesson as above for every misconception fringe-supporters trot out onto the discussion page. At some point, we're going to have to tell them to take a science class. I hope that Anthon01 considers doing this: I can send him a list of inexpensive higher-education institutions where he can learn about chemistry and thermal physics and then avoid such damning mistakes.

It is a shame that we waste so much text trying to explain basic science to people that are so committed to fighting against basic science. I think it is basically a waste of time, ultimately, because there is no indication from any of the posts that Anthon01 has made in his entire time at Wikipedia that he is willing to learn anything about the basic science he seems to be railing against.

So what are we to do? Perhaps Filll had the right idea: ignore the comments that are too convoluted or impossible to respond to without extreme amounts of pedagogy. We are not Wikiversity. Please learn about science somewhere else.

ScienceApologist (talk) 15:42, 9 March 2008 (UTC)

Your post shows your lack of knowledge on the subject. I have an advanced science degree. Anthon01 (talk) 16:06, 9 March 2008 (UTC)

Mother tincture is the standard term used in homeopathy for a plant tincture. It is the correct term. Whether either of these folks have given a good account of the process, is, however, another question. Peter morrell 15:55, 9 March 2008 (UTC)

Whether either of these folks have given a good account of the process ... Please explain as I think SA is misunderstanding your comment. Anthon01 (talk) 16:14, 9 March 2008 (UTC)

If I understand you correctly, Peter, a mother tincture (or plant tincture) is just the extract from a plant like vanilla extract or almond extract. It is not, however, solute or solvent molecules per se (it's the complete alcohol-based solution). So not only was Anthon01 not using the right terminology for the science, he wasn't using the right terminology for the homeopathy side either. How are we supposed to proceed with such issues? ScienceApologist (talk) 15:58, 9 March 2008 (UTC)

Yes, mother tincture is described here [5] it is the plant material in the 30% EtOH shaken every day for 1 month and then decanted, filtered and kept in a dark green bottle. Potencies are made from this. The solvent for serial dilution is usually 30% EtOH. That's about it really. I can't understand why the argument has arisen. It is a very simple process. Peter morrell 16:02, 9 March 2008 (UTC)

I would rather not get drawn into the dispute but I reckon both of you made a few errors in your descriptions. Some errors in the science and maybe in the homeopathy too. It's not such a bigdeal, can we please move on? thanks Peter morrell 16:22, 9 March 2008 (UTC)

I respect your desire not to get drawn into the dispute, Peter, but leave it to the reader to see that Anthon01 (with his supposed "advanced science degree") made basic errors in confusing solvents and solutes. ScienceApologist (talk) 19:30, 9 March 2008 (UTC)

Symptoms are defenses

Friends, I inserted the following sentence in the introductory paragraph and it was undone (hey Infophile...who suggested that I bring this up at the Talk page). Here's what I wrote: "Because homeopaths (and many modern-day physiologists) understand symptoms to be defenses of a person in his or her efforts to respond to infection and/or stress, using a medicine that mimics the symptoms of a sick person are thought to augment the person's own defenses. One of the underlying principles of homeopathy is its respect for the inner wisdom of the body and its viewpoint that symptoms are defenses of the body in its effects to defend and heal itself (references: J.T. Kent; G. Vithoulkas; many others). Because the homeopathic "principle of similars" makes more sense once one acknowledges this assumption, I believe that this information should be at the top of the article. Let's chat about this... DanaUllman^Talk 00:24, 9 March 2008 (UTC)

Given that the "Law of similars" section is 1 paragraph and is short on information and citations, this seems an appropriate piece to place there. The generality in the current lead, that "Homeopathic practitioners contend that an ill person can be treated using a substance that can produce, in a healthy person, symptoms similar to those of the illness" is accurate without delving into the complex justifications practitioners claim in support of the law of similars and such. — Scientizzle 00:37, 9 March 2008 (UTC)

As I suggested before, this would be more appropriate for a daughter article on scientific justifications and analyses and criticisms etc of homeopathy. I would like to get those with so much extra energy involved in doing something constructive like writing that article instead of altering this article very much.--Filll (talk) 00:56, 9 March 2008 (UTC)

While on this subject, I mentioned briefly rewording of this, so I'll clarify what I had in mind. At the beginning, I don't think the note about modern-day physiologists is particularly relevant here (though if we have an appropriate, reliable source stating this, it's reasonable). Secondly, the word "understand" gives the impression that this belief is the truth, whereas it's debatable at best. Something like "believe" would be better here. --Infophile ^{(Talk) (Contribs)} 02:04, 9 March 2008 (UTC)

Dana, what part of that reference justifies your phrasing? Please provide a quote from that reference. I have looked, but am unsure what part you're referring to. We need a connection between your phrasing and the reference. Unless there's a clear connection, then it could be OR, but I'd like to hear your reasoning and see the evidence of a connection. -- Fyslee / talk 04:01, 9 March 2008 (UTC)

I think I've heard this logic somewhere before, so I don't think it's entirely OR. Should just be a matter of finding the right source. I'll check if I can find something myself. --Infophile ^{(Talk) (Contribs)} 04:19, 9 March 2008 (UTC)

Checked what Hahnemann said on this, and his theories are different from what's presented here. He basically believed that the remedy would substitute itself for the disease's place in the body, pushing the disease out you could say. So the "symptoms as defenses" theory would have to have come after Hahnemann. --Infophile ^{(Talk) (Contribs)} 04:25, 9 March 2008 (UTC)

I am especially interested in making sure Dana's phrasing is based on the source. I'm wondering where his "(and many modern-day physiologists)" part comes from. -- Fyslee / talk 06:41, 9 March 2008 (UTC)

Some symptoms are a defence. Many however such as cold sores are not. No physiologist would lump them in together.

Actually, thanx for that example. There is a significant body of research that shows that inflammation has an important defensive role in the body's efforts to fight infection. Hahnemann was a vitalist (a concept that not only emphasizes an energetic components of living things but also that living organisms develop symptoms in its best efforts to defend and heal itself). James Tyler Kent followed in this tradition, and in modern times, George Vithoulkas uses concepts of symptoms as defenses, thus creating the logic for using medicines that MIMIC these defenses. I do not think that anyone knowledgeable of homeopathy would deny that homeopaths respect symptoms as defenses, even though homeopaths will also be the first to recognize that it is not ususally enough to "let the body heal itself." Instead, the sick person needs some type of therapeutic measures that augment (or mimic) the body's defenses in order to overcome infection, environmental exposure, and/or stress.DanaUllman^Talk 07:00, 11 March 2008 (UTC)

Whooops...as for the many modern-day physiologists, one can begin with Walter B. Cannon ("The Wisdom of the Body"), go on to Hans Selye (the father of stress theory), and more recently, I appreciate the work of R. Nesse and G. Williams in their seminal book "Why We Get Sick: The Emerging Science of Darwinian Medicine" (they see symptoms as adaptation and evolutionary efforts of the organism to defend and heal and evolve). There is a serious body of work on fever, on inflammation, and even on high blood pressure...and on and on. DanaUllman^Talk 07:06, 11 March 2008 (UTC)

I basically agree that there is something to it, and some very specific examples can no doubt be cited. My main concern here is your phrasing and it's connection with the source you used. What part of that source are you paraphrasing or using to justify your wording? My quibble here is not with the idea. -- Fyslee / talk 04:05, 12 March 2008 (UTC)

Filll's new template at the top of this page

I am not impressed with Filll's new template. There is obvious personal POV editorializing by his inclusion of the following:

A common objection made often by new arrivals is that the article presents homeopathy in an unsympathetic light and that criticism of homeopathy is too extensive or violates Wikipedia's Neutral Point of View policy (WP:NPOV). The sections of the WP:NPOV that apply directly to this article are:

• NPOV: Pseudoscience
• NPOV: Undue weight
• NPOV: Making necessary assumptions

Does anyone else see a problem with Filll's template? Arion 3x3 (talk) 00:25, 10 March 2008 (UTC)

Actually I was lazy and just copied it directly from the intelligent design talk page. So although it could be improved I am sure, I figured I would just start with what we already had on an FA article.--Filll (talk) 00:51, 10 March 2008 (UTC)

I think its fine, although i would reccomend expanding it since i am quite certian that those are not the only 4 issues ever discussd here. perhaps a reference to WP:Orignal research and WP:balance would be in order. Smith Jones (talk) 01:21, 10 March 2008 (UTC)

OR is already there, though it's not as prominent. --Infophile ^{(Talk) (Contribs)} 01:28, 10 March 2008 (UTC)

yeah right Anywy i added it in. Smith Jones (talk) 01:32, 10 March 2008 (UTC)

I would add the following:

• Where it says "tempers have flared," I would say that for some unknown reason homeopathy seems to excite in people the very wildest passions for or against it. Please therefore go steady and try to assume good faith and adopt as far as possible a collaborative and respectful attitude at all times towards other contributors.

• where it says about "soapboxing and personal attacks" it should also add that repeated abuse of the talk page or of other contributors will not be tolerated and is likely to lead to blocks or bans. Peter morrell

New version of image

Just as a FYI I modified the remedies lead image a little to improve the brightness and contrast and crop out some of the background. Tim Vickers (talk) 18:31, 10 March 2008 (UTC)

thanks for that. i just hope thats not a violation of some arcane policy or anthing. Smith Jones (talk) 21:17, 10 March 2008 (UTC)

No, its a public-domain image. Tim Vickers (talk) 21:59, 10 March 2008 (UTC)

in rough proportion to their prominence ?

I thought NPOV meant "neutral point of view." Negative material does not seem very neutral.

Actually NPOV is not really neutral, but includes all points of view in rough proportion to their prominence, including negative views, critical views, mainstream views etc.

"In rough proportion to their prominence" ; how this is defined? By the publiched studies in RS? If yes then the lead should change a bit to reflect that. --70.107.246.88 (talk) 15:02, 11 March 2008 (UTC)

There are a lot of ways to determine prominence, and I am not aware of any "official" method on WP. What it basically means is that there must be a good strong measure of mainstream and critical material in any FRINGE article, or pseudoscience article. Many view this negative material as nonneutral, but NPOV does not really mean neutral (in that sense anyway); instead, NPOV means including all the divergent views in one article. Some think that NPOV leads to bad writing, and it could be; however, there are other wikis which do not have NPOV and allow each article on a topic to promote a different view or agenda.--Filll (talk) 16:11, 11 March 2008 (UTC)

thanks Filll. ( The rest of your answer does not concern me - of course - otherwhise I would take it as a personal attack )

Anybody who has an idea how prominence is determined? --70.107.246.88 (talk) 16:17, 11 March 2008 (UTC)

http://www.pubmedcentral.nih.gov/articlerender.fcgi?tool=pubmed&pubmedid=17429507-- Pharmacists should also be aware that the data assessing the efficacy of homeopathy are mixed—there are rigorous, reproducible studies that show homeopathy is effective,39,42-44 and equally scientifically sound studies that show it is not.270.107.246.88 (talk)

15:12, 11 March 2008 (UTC)

This would be a good source if we decide to create a subsiduary daughter article on scientific studies of homeopathic efficacy, or science and homeopathy or something.--Filll (talk) 16:13, 11 March 2008 (UTC)

@ Filll this is already in the article.

@ Jehochman what action are you taking if someone reverts without discussion? --70.107.246.88 (talk) 16:20, 11 March 2008 (UTC)

The data assessing the efficacy of homeopathy are mixed—there are rigorous, reproducible studies that show homeopathy is effective,and equally scientifically sound studies that show it is not. I will add this in the article. --70.107.246.88 (talk) 16:33, 11 March 2008 (UTC) Comments ? Objections?--70.107.246.88 (talk) 17:03, 11 March 2008 (UTC)

Go ahead but some will doubtless object. Peter morrell 17:38, 11 March 2008 (UTC)

The paper has some lies serious misstatements in its lead which suggest it should not be used as a reference. — Arthur Rubin (talk) 18:25, 11 March 2008 (UTC)

Well maybe you can detail these LIES here so we can all assess what you say? thanks Peter morrell 18:53, 11 March 2008 (UTC)

"Regulated under federal Food and Drug Acts in Canada and the United States, homeopathic preparations are recognized as drugs in both countries...." is false in regard the US. They are regulated under FDA acts as foods or dietary supplements, not as drugs. There's no requirement for proof of safety or efficacy, as required even for grandfathered drugs (drugs in common use before the FDA acts). — Arthur Rubin (talk) 19:01, 11 March 2008 (UTC)

You are confusing various regulations imposed on conventional drugs with classification as a "drug". However, the FDA quite clearly classifies homeopathic remedies as drugs (as ridiculous as that seems), including the normal establishment of rules on over-the-counter sales and prescriptions of such "medicine".[6] Vassyana (talk) 08:36, 12 March 2008 (UTC)

I'm not sure we can call them lies exactly more perhaps as errors of fact, apart from which the article would seem otherwise to be a good source, yes? Peter morrell 19:06, 11 March 2008 (UTC)

As such an error of fact should have been caught in the peer-review stage, it seems to be to negate the presumption that an article in a peer-reviewed journal is itself peer-reviewed. Hence it depends solely on the reputation of the secondary author (the primary author being a member of the society passing the article on for publication). If we can assert that the secondary author is a recognized expert in the appropriate field, the article might remain, and the statement might remain in the lead as a minority opinion. Otherwise.... — Arthur Rubin (talk) 19:10, 11 March 2008 (UTC)

• Ernst E (2005). "Is homeopathy a clinically valuable approach?". Trends Pharmacol. Sci. 26 (11): 547–8. PMID 16165225.
  • "Homeopathy is defined as ‘a therapeutic method using preparations of substances whose effects when administered to healthy subjects correspond to the manipulation of the disorder (symptoms, clinical signs, pathological states) in the individual patient’ [1]. It is based on two axioms: the ‘like cures like principle’ (as in the definition above) and the notion that ‘potentiation’ (serial dilution with vigorous shaking) renders a medicine not less and less but more and more powerful. Thus, many homeopathic remedies are diluted beyond Avogadro's number (6.0225×1023) where the likelihood approaches zero that a single molecule of the original substance is contained in the remedy. Both axioms are scientifically implausible."
• Johnson T, Boon H (2007). "Where does homeopathy fit in pharmacy practice?". American journal of pharmaceutical education. 71 (1): 7. PMID 17429507.
  • "This is a system of medicine that has been in widespread use for the last 200 years, the theory of which is diametrically opposed to modern pharmaceutical knowledge and theories."

What is the problem? Tim Vickers (talk) 19:24, 11 March 2008 (UTC)

Sorry about the {{verify source}} tag. I had assumed Boon (not Johnson, as I read the heading of the article) was used to reference the statement there that were some scientific studies showing a clinical effect, rather than the existing "diametrically opposed" clause. {{verify credibility}} is still open, though. — Arthur Rubin (talk) 19:32, 11 March 2008 (UTC)

TIBS is one of the top pharmacy review journals, I don't see why you are concerned that it might not be a reliable source. Could you explain your problem? Tim Vickers (talk) 19:37, 11 March 2008 (UTC)

The statement that homeopathic remedies are regulated as drugs is clearly false. Even our article recognizes (with sources) that they are regulated as food supplements, rather than as drugs. Such a misstatement of fact seems to remove the presumption of peer review, as I commented in the section above. — Arthur Rubin (talk) 19:42, 11 March 2008 (UTC)

Reading the later sections I notice they cite the later paper PMID 10391656 as "Additional scrutiny, including methodological revisions by the authors themselves in a subsequent paper, confirmed these findings", while in fact the re-analysis by the authors concluded that "We conclude that in the study set investigated, there was clear evidence that studies with better methodological quality tended to yield less positive results." and in the discussion "The evidence of bias weakens the findings of our original meta-analysis. Since we completed our literature search in 1995, a considerable number of new homeopathy trials have been published. The fact that a number of the new high-quality trials (e.g. [14,15]) have negative results, and a recent update of our review for the most “original” subtype of homeopathy (classical or individualized homeopathy), seem to confirm the finding that more rigorous trials have less-promising results. It seems, therefore, likely that our meta-analysis at least overestimated the effects of homeopathic treatments." Any review that describes this conclusion as "confirming" the findings of the original meta-analysis is being at minimum disingenuous. I think I agree with you about this source Arthur, something with such obvious distortions can't be used uncritically. Tim Vickers (talk) 19:47, 11 March 2008 (UTC)

Tim, I have a lot of respect for you and for you knowledge of research. However, you somehow overlooked the first sentence (!) of the article by Linde to which you refer above. "There is increasing evidence that more rigorous trials tend to yield less optimistic results than trials with less preacutions against bias." (They then provide 3 significant references). Their observations are that ALL clinical research results (not just homeopathic research) have diminishing positive finds the better the studies are designed and conducted. Further, you inserted into the article a statement that asserts that conventional medical studies are of a higher quality than homeopathic studies. According to Shang (2005), more than twice the homeopathic studies reviewed were of a "high quality" than the conventional medical studies reviewed. Can you show good faith by inserting this statement (it seems that some editors delete my contributions). DanaUllman^Talk 21:42, 11 March 2008 (UTC)

In response to: According to Shang (2005), more than twice the homeopathic studies reviewed were of a "high quality" than the conventional medical studies reviewed. What's the ratio of studies done by homeopaths to those done by conventional medical researchers? Because this can easily explain how it can both be true that conventional studies are, on average, better than homeopathic studies and that there are more high-quality homeopathic studies than conventional studies.

Let's take an example. Let's say that 80% of all studies on homeopathy are run by homeopaths, while 20% are run by mainstream researchers. Now, let's say that of the studies run by homeopaths, one quarter (25%) are high-quality, and that of the studies run by mainstream researchers, half (50%) are high-quality. Then we get the results that of all studies, 20% are high-quality and run by homeopaths, and 10% are high-quality and run by conventional researchers. Thus, twice as many high-quality studies by homeopaths as conventional researchers, and yet conventional researchers have a higher standard for quality in general. --Infophile ^{(Talk) (Contribs)} 21:55, 11 March 2008 (UTC)

The Linde review deals only with the trials of homeopathic medicines, so their analysis and observations only apply to their data set. However, you're quite right that this is a problem across all clinical trials, it just becomes more of a problem when you're trying to distinguish the difference between no effect and a small effect. However, homeopathic trials seem particularly poor PMID 11801202, I've changed my addition so this statement should be uncontroversial. Tim Vickers (talk) 22:05, 11 March 2008 (UTC)

I think that we all agree that MOST trials (homeopathic OR not) are poorly designed and/or conducted. I suggest that we ignore poor trials and only report on those trials that are RS and/or have had RS secondary sources say were high quality. The various meta-analyses that I posted earlier today are worthy of discussion because of their high quality. DanaUllman^Talk 01:31, 12 March 2008 (UTC)

Dana, what exactly do you mean by "high quality"? Skinwalker (talk) 02:05, 12 March 2008 (UTC)

Good question, Skinwalker. First, I do not think that we editors can or should make the determinations of what is and what isn't "high quality" research, though it is always tempting to do so. Instead, most meta-analyses have specific criteria for how they define high quality. Thus, I think that we need to rely upon RS's secondary literature. The exception here is when there is NEW research for which secondary sources have not yet evaluated them. The other exception might be publication in the upper region of RS. That said, all editors need to know that each field and type of scientific experiment has its own definition of high quality. For instance, while double-blind research seems essential for clinical research, there are research published in high impact physics journals that are not blinded. Also, there is also a body of "clinical outcome studies" that may represent more real and typical clinical medicine, thereby providing us with reliable information. Double-blind and randomized trials are not the only "gold standard." DanaUllman^Talk 03:49, 12 March 2008 (UTC)

30c

With regard to that ref about Hahnemann recommending 30c for provings, this is not entirely accurate. Most provings during his lifetime were done with crude doses of drugs or very low material dose potencies (such as 1x, 3x etc) so that quote is correct as per the later Organon, but taken on its own is very misleading. A better quote would be his recommendation that remedies should be given in 30c to patients. That can be found in Bradford's Biography. In any case Hahnemann did not recommend 30c for all patients until about 1830. Do you want me to find a good ref for that? For example: In the year 1829, Hahnemann came upon the strange idea of setting up a kind of standard dose for all curative remedies used in homoeopathy. This was to be the 30th centesimal. (Haehl, Samuel Hahnemann His Life and Works, Vol 1, pp321-22) thanks Peter morrell 19:17, 11 March 2008 (UTC)

Here you go: "but for the Homoeopathic treatment of patients it is expedient in the preparation of all kinds of medicines to remain stationary at the decillionth attenuation and potency, in order that Homoeopathic practitioners may be able to promise themselves uniform results in their cures." (Hahnemann to Dr Schreter in a letter quoted in T L Bradford, Life and Letters of Hahnemann, 1895, p.467) [7] The decillionth dilution is of course the 30th centesimal. It shows that Hahnemann desired at that time (c.1830) for homeopaths to fix potency at 30c and not go higher. This is a better quote or source than that placed in the article today by User:Brunton IMO thanks Peter morrell 19:30, 11 March 2008 (UTC)

That is a good idea, though I think that it would be wise to make it clear that Hahnemann begun using simply somewhat small doses and that after 20+ years of careful observation of the results of his patients, he and fellow homeopaths began using high and higher potencies. At present, the article seems to suggest that homeopaths began using doses "without a single molecule" from the beginning (which is not true). DanaUllman^Talk 21:34, 11 March 2008 (UTC)

The Martinphi-ScienceApologist Interview

What is the role of science in producing authoritative knowledge? How should Wikipedia report on pseudoscience? Veterans of numerous edit wars and talk page battles spanning dozens of articles across Wikipedia, User:Martinphi and User:ScienceApologist will go head to head on the subject of Wikipedia, Science, and Pseudoscience in a groundbreaking interview to be published in an upcoming issue of Signpost. User:Zvika will moderate the discussion. Post suggested topics and questions at The Martinphi-ScienceApologist Interview page.66.30.77.62 (talk) 11:24, 12 March 2008 (UTC)

Notes & references

This should be the last section. If you notice a new section below, please "fix it" by moving this section back to the bottom of the page. Thankyou