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An interesting quote

:While I hold no particularly strong opinion one way or the other on polygamy, and wish "Jenny" all the best, I must confess that at the present time and for the foreseeable future, I do not have 2 wives.--Jimbo Wales 23:07, 21 January 2006 (UTC)

-from User talk:Jimbo Wales

Is The South Park Episode Accurate?

In a South Park episode they claimed that Smith put the gold tablets and the seer stone into a hat and had someone else translate what he saw. One of the translator's took the translated papers to his house and his wife suggested saying they were lost and seeing if he could translate that section again and say the exact same thing. Smith told the translator that he could no longer translate it b/c God was angry that he lost the translation so they had to start working on one of the other sections. You can find that episode on Youtube http://youtube.com/watch?v=Qn6ziT36lwA --151.213.155.3 21:54, 15 March 2006 (UTC)

Yes, that is all accurate (except that the supposed "gold plates" did not actually go into the hat, just the stones did). In fact, Smith was never able to reproduce this section, but used the excuse that this inability was the result of God's anger, and continued to deny that he was fabricating the whole thing. bcatt 22:49, 15 March 2006 (UTC)

That is not all accurate, bcatt has no idea what she's talking about. cooki e caper (talk / contribs) 00:05, 16 March 2006 (UTC)

Well, history says different. bcatt 00:07, 16 March 2006 (UTC)

Taking Bcatt's word about anything to do with Mormonism is like seeking to understand watch making by going to the butcher. The butcher might say something, but it will surely have nothing to do with watch making. Bcatt knows something of astrology, in which she finds come confidence. Note her words on the Talk:Astrology page, "in my own experience, which shows that astrology is indeed quite valid." Astrology can be valid, but Mormons are idiots to put their faith in the restored gospel returned to the earth by Joseph Smith? Somehow Mormons are not allowed the same dignity she demands for herself. Can you say hypocrite? Bcatt states that Joseph was "never able to reproduce this section". The answer is not that he was ever incapable, but that he was commanded not to. State just the facts and leave the editorializing for anti-Mormon literature. It is okay to be anti-Mormon; in fact it really does not matter. However, to parade around like you are neutral is a farce and dishonest. Stick to the facts; period. Storm Rider ^(talk) 00:17, 16 March 2006 (UTC)

Wikistalking me now? A little obsessed are we? Astrology at least has some basis in reality for belief, to paraphrase my statement "in my experience, it has shown potential", as opposed to the Mormon "it doesn't matter that all the evidence shows that it is wrong, and nothing that has been predicted by it has come true, and it has no physical basis in reality to support the logic of believing in it, but you are a retard if you don't believe in it". Show me where I said that "everyone who does not believe in astrology is an idiot"...you won't find it because I don't have a MPOV. That Smith was "commanded not to" is not a fact, it is a belief with zero basis in reality and no evidence to back it up. Yes, stick to the facts. bcatt 01:20, 16 March 2006 (UTC)

Your statement noted in my comment above is a direct quote, please let's not recreate history when the evidence is on the talk page. It is great that you think that astrology can guide your life (I would love to see the evidence of any thinking person who believes in this attempt at science; so far it resides in the minds of the simple and ignorant; first ladies included. Further, it doesn't begin to state the other side except for some gibberish that common readers can't understand; to state it simply there is not scientific fact backing it up!).

Mormonism happens to guide the lives of other people. You might find it to be false---great don't be a Mormon---, I and many others have felt the promptings of the Holy Spirit testify of its truth and attempt to follow its precepts. We are not here to mollify your pathetic attacks; nor are we here to allow your ignorant attempts at editing something that you obviously know very little about. At best you are a parrot; garbage in and garbage out. Worse, you don't even use anti-Mormon literature correctly. You misquote and you misapply to the wrong circumstances. If you insist on editing have the decency to reference your diatribes. In doing so, you might learn something about anti-Mormon literature and at least others will know your true colors. No more wrapping yourself in NPOV verbage. You have an axe to grind and you are absolute in your attempts to grind it. We accept that, but don't play as if you are neutral. Storm Rider ^(talk) 04:06, 16 March 2006 (UTC)

Oh yes, and I am such a "hypocrit" that on the astrology talk page, I wrote: "In the interest of NPOV, the opposition does need to be properly represented", when other editors were interested in only preserving the SPOV...oh yes, so very hypocritical of me. (note: in psychology, when a person accuses another of doing things that the accuser is actually doing themselves, not only is it hypocrisy - imagine, being a hypocrisy hypocrit! - but is also a mark of the disturbed). And by the way, I did notice your edits to astrology (and recognized it as a likely trolling attempt), and that many of them are factually incorrect (which is the result of editing a page just to try to piss someone off when you actually have no experience with the topic). bcatt 01:44, 16 March 2006 (UTC)

bcatt, I see in you "a mark of the disturbed", then. It is incomprehensible how you can come in here and accuse everyone else of the very things you do, all the time pretending not to do them, and then continue to attempt to tarnish the reputations of an entire community of valuable, well-respected, and proven editors. The things you have posted on this talk page demonstrate a knowledge of Mormonism no deeper than that which would be accrued from skimming any of the trite circulars regularly distributed by anti-Mormon organizations. You cannot accuse Storm Rider of trolling when his good-faith edits were designed to improve the overall accuracy of Wikipedia and when your edits on this page are designed solely to promote your point-of-view that followers of Smith are "brainwashed". You are not interested in NPOVing this article, you are interested in evangelizing. There are places where you are welcome to do that. Wikipedia is not one of them. Get it together or go away, this is seriously annoying. cooki e caper (talk / contribs) 14:04, 16 March 2006 (UTC)

Everyone here needs to chill out a second and be civil. WP:CIVIL ⇒ SWATJester ^Ready Aim _Fire! 04:08, 16 March 2006 (UTC)

Swatjester is correct. For starters, article Talk pages like this one are for discussing how best to improve the related article, and not for discussing fellow editors. In particular, we all need to be careful to avoid personal attacks; and to avoid using a fellow editor's beliefs to discredit them personally. Personally, I've found it helpful at times to take an hour off or a day or two off after reading something that upset me, before I responded to it. Maybe others would benefit as well. Wesley 17:08, 16 March 2006 (UTC)

Indeed. I'd suggest that you guys file for Formal mediation. ⇒ SWATJester

^Ready Aim _Fire! 03:50, 17 March 2006 (UTC)

Cookiecaper and StormRider, these are BLATENT PERSONAL ATTACKS. This is DISGUSTING, UNETHICAL, DISHONEST and CHILDISH behavior. You are warned, AGAIN. This is being documented. This is not how to conduct a Wiki discussion. --FreedominThought 06:51, 17 March 2006 (UTC)

Please no threats. Wikepedia is not the place for that, nor is your authority greater than other editors. -Visorstuff 16:17, 17 March 2006 (UTC)

FYI to editors helping try to mediate this dispute: Freedominthought (talk · contribs) has less than 50 edits and more than 1/2 of them are on this article. I accused him of being a sock (one of the references that bcatt has made to our unwelcomeness - though if review the history - there are many cases of welcoming new users) since he was experienced enough to know how to change his signature in preferences to eliminate any link to his userpage and jumped into the middle of the discussion fully versed in wikipedia terms of art. Trödel 11:53, 17 March 2006 (UTC)

I never stated anything above my authority Visor. Your insinuation is specious. And talk about calling the kettle black. Your libelous statements about me are an abuse of your authority. Trodel, your continued besmirching of my character is duly noted. You can consider yourself warned as violating Wiki policy as well. The volume of my posts and what I post in and my sophistication is irrelevant. I am a frickin genius, what can I say. This bullying and sophomoric character assasination to protect the Pro-Mormon POV is completely unethical and against everything the Wiki stands for. And FYI, your assertion that I did some expert magic to modify my signature is also specious.--FreedominThought 01:14, 19 March 2006 (UTC)

Be civil FreedominThought. Stop throwing around the term "Libel"...the term Libel as applies to Wikipedia does not apply in this situation. Cease your personal attacks. ⇒ SWATJester

^Ready Aim _Fire! 08:09, 19 March 2006 (UTC)

FYI, libel is a term in the English language, not just applying to Wikipedia. And my context of the word was quite clear. The written comments about me have been deliberately defamatory and an attack on my character in a childish attempt to silence my voice. That is clearly against Wiki policy but you don't mention that, do you. I don't see how objecting to blatant personal defamation is a personal attack I am simply defending myself. I will continue to defend myself with vigor as is my right. Pointing out violations of policy, however embarrassing to the guilty, is not a personal attack. --FreedominThought 18:10, 19 March 2006 (UTC)

No, Libel is a type of civil defamation tort involving written word, and wikipedia has a policy of No Legal Threats. This is not YOUR article, This is not YOUR talk page, this is not YOUR server. you do not have a "right". Using words like "childish" and "blatant personal defamation" is uncivil. Stop it, now.⇒ SWATJester ^Ready Aim _Fire! 19:22, 19 March 2006 (UTC)

No, your mischaracterization of my comments is a red herring argument. I never made a legal threat and you know it. The term is used in legalese because of its precision. What needs to stop are the personal attacks on users supporting a NPOV. I have every right to defend myself in public when I am attacked and defamed in public. That is what is uncivil and I am not going to roll over to such bullying. This is not YOUR talk page either. If you want uncivility to stop, then stop the users making repeated personal attacks, not me for defending myself against them. --FreedominThought 21:17, 19 March 2006 (UTC)

Nobody was talking to you in this section, dude. :) cooki e caper (talk / contribs) 08:15, 20 March 2006 (UTC)

And your point is? Does that excuse the behavior? Nope. Loved your comment below about not "being mean". Deeds, not words. --FreedominThought 16:37, 20 March 2006 (UTC)

Incidentally, you wrote about me: "Your libelous statements about me are an abuse of your authority." I've had multiple admins double check my behavior in this heated debate. Not only have I not abused any authority I may have, andt my attempts to help mediate this discussion were well-intentioned. I'm actually suprised that you followed that portion of the debate of this page. I'm also suprised that you have attacked Swatjester, who has been very civil on this page and whose help is much appreciated by most in this debate. Please, once again, be civil. Thanks in advance. -Visorstuff 22:09, 20 March 2006 (UTC)

My point is you had no personal attacks to defend yourself against, as nobody even mentioned you here. And I wasn't being mean, I even used a little happy face. cooki e caper (talk / contribs) 22:17, 20 March 2006 (UTC)

Personal attacks don't just have to be against me for me to point them out. Swatjester likewise interjected himself in the mix (but you didn't call him out on that, did you), not to warn those who originally made the comments I referred to, but to warn me, here AND on my talk page. I didn't "attack" him (what drama!), I corrected his mistaken assertions. And Cookiecaper, I didn't mean you were being mean in this instance, but just noting I found your previous posts inconsistent with your comment. Visor, I am surprised that you think continuing to label me a "sock puppet" and thus insinuating I am a fraud and a liar in order to discredit my voice here is appropriate in the slightest for an admin. And then you act so shocked when I take umbridge with it all. --FreedominThought 23:34, 20 March 2006 (UTC)

"Swatjester likewise interjected himself in the mix (but you didn't call him out on that, did you)" Remember FreedominThought: Wikipedia is the encyclopedia ANYONE can edit: not just you. Nobody owns any article, talk pages, etc. Everyone here just needs to chill out and be civil with each other. ⇒ SWATJester

^Ready Aim _Fire! 20:46, 22 March 2006 (UTC)

You said "I have every right to defend myself in public when I am attacked and defamed in public", although you were not defamed. And yeah I'm trying to be nice now wanna fight about it? cooki e caper (talk / contribs) 23:52, 20 March 2006 (UTC)

So you define nice as upholding your bias. Webster's would contradict. A fight? Oh dear, I wouldn't dream of taking advantage of you ;-P --FreedominThought 03:16, 21 March 2006 (UTC)

NPOV Tag revisited

This tag has been on for quite some time, in my opinion, without justification. While not perfect, the language here generally reflects careful editing and discussion over some time - and the reasoning for the NPOV is still lost on me mostly since it seems to advocate for an even more advesarial POV than that which already exists. As already indicated, this article is substantially more attacking of JS than other similarly controversial religious leaders, and while I think this possibly violates the NPOV policy; the reason the NPOV tag was put on the article (and the list of items the tagger would like addressed) would make the article violate the NPOV policy even more and definately not present the information in the sympethetic way as NPOV requires. I would just remove the tag but last time I did so created controversy. Trödel 23:09, 16 March 2006 (UTC)

I agree. I'm concerned that this may end up as a "permanent NPOV issue" article, a la George W. Bush. This article portrays Smith in the eyes of both his followers and his detractors well; most remaining complaints, it seems to me, are by those who refuse to acknowledge the legitimacy of any opposing information. Being uncomfortable with certain issues about an article is not reason for an NPOV tag, however.

Maybe, just to make it painfully clear after wading through so many talk pages full of "this is what's wrong with this article," we can draw up a concise list of what still remains to be addressed, if anything, and get it taken care of already. I hate that tag. Tijuana Brass 03:02, 17 March 2006 (UTC)

Speaking of long talk pages, this one is probably ready for an archive. Tijuana Brass 03:03, 17 March 2006 (UTC)

Sounds like two good plans to me. Alai 03:07, 17 March 2006 (UTC)

The NPOV tag was added because opposing views are not given appropriate weight in this article, and many are being completely censored. Another note, on the trolling and vandalism...cookiecape mad a bad edit intentionally (vandalism) with the purpose of antagonizing me (trolling). I realize I eventually lost my temper, but it was only after numerous personal attacks (intended to provoke me and derail the discussion); the tactic here is to bite newcomers if they are not willing to accept the pro-POV status quo and, if that does not make them go away, to attack and prevent discussion in the hope that they will eventually give up. I'm not the type to bend to strongarm tactics, and so the attacks escalate; each time someone shows up that has a similar opinion that this article very badly needs to be worked over for NPOV, the attacks increase even more. Alai, as to your comment to me on my talk page, it is the ignoring of these behaviours by Visorstuff that I have taken issue with; if you look in the last archive under NPOV dispute!!!/This article is quite biased, you will see that after many personal attacks, I finally said something back and Visorstuff jumped down my throat while making excuses for the others. Sure, I shouldn't have retaliated, but if you look, you will see that I made a lot of effort not to in spite of the attempts to incite my anger. Perhaps if these behaviours were properly addressed, constructive discussion could take place, this article could actually be worked on, and the tag could be removed. bcatt 09:02, 17 March 2006 (UTC)

psst ... my edits weren't vandalism. I made them because I believed they would make the article better. And they did. cooki e caper (talk / contribs) 09:30, 17 March 2006 (UTC)

Trying to get up to speed here... could someone list some specific facts they believe are missing from the article, and at least some specific views that seem to have 'insufficient weight'? Wesley 16:56, 17 March 2006 (UTC)

Let's take a good look at the intro. This is what it said before I edited it:

<Name> <Birth Date> <Reason for notability> Smith's followers revere him as a latter-day prophet 1-1. <Size of faction and sub-factions and links to articles on different groups>.

Though many people were converted to the message of the gospel restoration 1-2 taught by Joseph Smith, he likewise was actively opposed throughout his ministry. Smith's teachings were not welcomed by the existing 1-3 Christian community. This rejection 1-4 was later compounded by other detractors 1-5 who felt he possessed too much political and military power for a religious leader 1-6.

Now my edit and cookiecaper's edit side by side for easy comparison:

bcatt's edit	cookiecaper's edit
<Name> <Birth Date> <Reason for notability> <Size of faction and sub-factions and links to articles on different groups>.	<Name> <Birth Date> <Reason for notability> Many people have been converted to the restorationist message taught by Smith and his followers. 3-1 <Size of faction and sub-factions and links to articles on different groups>.
Though many people were converted to the restorationist message taught by Smith and his followers revere him as a latter-day prophet 2-1, these teachings are opposed in mainstream Christianity as heretical or apostate (see Mormonism and Christianity) 2-2. Smith was eventually seen as having too much political and military power for a religious leader by many ex-Mormons - both those who left voluntarily, such as William Law and associates, and those who were excommunicated for dissent, like Oliver Cowdery, Martin Harris, and David Whitmer 2-3. Conversely, most of the non-Mormon public and many politicians considered Smith as having too much influence as a religious leader to fairly represent the people as a government official 2-4. Both non-Mormons and ex-Mormons alike criticized Smith for his endorsement and practice of polygamy (see Mormon publication Doctrine and Covenants (D&C) 132:61-62) 2-5.	Smith was opposed by most of his contemporaries 3-2; the doctrines he taught were considered heretical and were rejected by other 3-3 Christian clergy. Many people 3-4 criticized Smith because of his political power — during his ministry he was mayor 3-5, an opponent of slavery 3-6, and the commander of at least two militias (Zion's Camp and the Nauvoo Legion) 3-7. Smith's practice of plural marriage 3-8, a form of polygyny 3-9 he introduced, was also highly controversial 3-10. Tensions with his enemies 3-11 continuously escalated until June 27, 1844, when Smith and his brother Hyrum were shot and killed by a large mob while incarcerated at Carthage, Illinois 3-12.

Notes

1-1: Having this inserted here serves to insinuate that "since many people were converted, Smith must be right". It is used out of context in a way that creates POV

1-2: POV statement that Smith's message is the restored gospel.

1-3: Makes the assertion that Mormonism is a Christian religion, when one would be hard pressed to find a Christian, either then or now, who would agree with this. Does not address the fact that Mormonism rejected and/or changed many fundamental aspects of Christianity in such a way that it no longer resembles Chritianity when one has all the facts.

1-4: Makes it sound like "Poor Smith, he was rejected"...eliciting sympathy from the reader.

1-5: Insinuates that anyone disagreeing with Smith is libelous.

1-6: Who thinks this?

2-1: Describes the supportive point of view, who holds it and why

2-2: Describes the views held by the Christian community in regard to Smith's teachings and provides a link to an article that goes into detail on this topic

2-3: Describes the views held by those who were once supportive of Smith but changed their minds, and why they changed their minds

2-4: Describes the views of the non-Mormon community

2-5: Describes a major view held by more than one of the above groups

3-1: Views of Smith's followers are again used out of context to insinuate that his teachings must be right

3-2: Leaves out the fact that he is still opposed to this day, implying that his opposition has changed their minds in favour of his teachings

3-3: Leaves out part of the view of the Christian community, elicits sympathy (he was rejected), and asserts that Mormonism is a Christian religion

3-4: Who criticized him?

3-5: There is not space in the intro to go into detail that he was a self-appointed mayor, and that this self-appointment was only accepted because practically the entire community under his mayoral jurisdiction was comprised of his followers...this should be saved for later in the article where it can be put in proper context

3-6: I ask again, how can someone be an abolitionist if they are racist? Non-whites were not allowed into the "priesthood", and this fact did not change until 1978...as far as I can tell, people of colour still can't make it very high up in the hierarchy (correct me if I am wrong - with proof, please)...also, racism still runs rampant in Mormon communities today, particularly towards African Americans

3-7: Although this describes part of the reason he was considered as too politically powerful, it needs more explaination, so it would probably be a good idea to have an article concentrating on Smith's role in politics and military and link it to the appropriate places in this intro as well as in other articles (this could help greatly with the size problems in many of the larger articles)

3-8: Use of a specifically Mormon term where there is not space to go into describing what it means, also falsely asserts that Smith did not consummate these marriages, when there is proof that he did consummate many of them

3-9: Misleading because polyandry was also a result of these teachings, polygamy is the appropriate term to use here

3-10: To who?

3-11: Inflammatory and characterizes those who oppose Smith as wrong and unjustified in their opposition...not neutral language.

3-12: This topic already has much space in the article, as well as having it's very own article...there is also not space in the intro to put it in proper context

NPOV says:

As the name suggests the neutral point of view is a point of view. It is a point of view that is neutral - that is neither sympathetic nor in opposition to its subject.

Debates are described, represented, and characterized, but not engaged in. Background is provided on who believes what and why, and which view is more popular. Detailed articles might also contain the mutual evaluations of each viewpoint, but studiously refrain from stating which is better. One can think of unbiased writing as the cold, fair, analytical description of debates. When bias towards one particular point of view can be detected the article needs to be fixed. bcatt 19:12, 17 March 2006 (UTC)

Hmm... actually you raise some good points here. The intro isn't perfect. You should change what you disagree with. The ex-Mormon stuff in your version is inappropriate for an introduction and accusatory in tone. The other stuff is cool though, and I tried to retain some of it, and most of that retention you noted as not NPOV. Bummer.

3-1 serves the same purpose it does in your intro and is a topic sentence for the following paragraph. You're right that 3-2 doesn't mention present-day opposition but I don't believe this implies that there is none. 3-2 and that whole paragraph is clearly oblivious of the present, and makes no attempt to describe it, for or against. What is left out in 3-3 and how does saying that somebody was rejected elicit sympathy? It doesn't, that isn't changing. As 3-4 states, many people criticize him. People from all over. It wasn't limited to non-Mormons or politicians. 3-5 Yeah there is. 3-6 our definition of racist has evolved; as Wesley states below, many abolitionists still believed that blacks were inferior. That assertion might be asserted here [1] , I don't know I didn't read it very closely. And Smith wasn't racist even by our present definition. 3-7 Yeah that might be a good idea. 3-8 Interwiki links exist for just this reason; if a reader doesn't understand a term, he can follow the link and learn more about it. It's explained enough for the reader to know what we mean here anyway. 3-9 Wrong, see archived discussions. Everyone disagrees with you. 3-10 Everyone? Mormons weren't really jumping for joy when they heard of this either. 3-11 Not inflammatory, this is addressed above. This term is no different than the use of "opposition", as they mean the same thing [2], and "enemies" isn't likely to be interpreted differently by the majority of readers. 3-12 I think it's cool.

It should also be noted that an introduction similar to the one I've installed existed in the article for quite a long time without much complaint. cooki e caper (talk / contribs) 02:44, 19 March 2006 (UTC)

I'm sorry, I fail to see how this one example addresses Wesley's question for a summation of arguments. Can you clarify? Also, you state that Smith was "a self-appointed mayor." As Smith was elected as a replacement for Bennett in Nauvoo, I fail to see how he was self-appointed.

Second, your questions about polyandry and polygamy and polygny have been addressed elsewhere. You may want to discuss with the folks at the polygamy page and get their take on term usage. They have finally come to an agreement on usage.

Lastly, you wrote:

"I ask again, how can someone be an abolitionist if they are racist? Non-whites were not allowed into the "priesthood", and this fact did not change until 1978...as far as I can tell, people of colour still can't make it very high up in the hierarchy (correct me if I am wrong - with proof, please)...also, racism still runs rampant in Mormon communities today, particularly towards African Americans

Again, you may want to actually research this. When Smith was president of the church, blacks were ordained to the priesthood. He ordained one in particular as a seventy - the third ranking body "equal in authority to" the twelve and first presidency. The ban went from 1846-1978 (initated after his death). Since 1978, there have been other blacks as general authorities and as area seventies - one of the best-known is Helvicio Martins (http://www.gapages.com/menu.htm), who served as a general authority until he turned 70 years old - at which time all Seventies are placed on "emeritus status." There are literally hundreds of blacks that are bishops, stake presidents and in other leadership positions currently. Some sites to read: [3], [4].

Some context - prior to the 1970s most Mormons were democrats. They were, as a whole, sympathetic to civil rights issues. You may want to read Smith's views as a presidential candidate about using land sales to free all slaves. He was an abolishonist, as were most northererners of the time. This is a main reason for the "extermination order" in Missouri by republican/whig governor Boggs - as Mormons tended to vote as a bloc and were against slavery. The church's "racist" past is just as complex as some baptist conventions (who allowed black ministers officially in 1972) and penecostals (who changed the rules on the books in 1998), however, those negative racial histories are not emphasized as much as Mormon histories as it took a "revelation" to change mormon policy, as opposed to a vote. Again, most of this information is out there, you should easily be able to find it. A good place to start would be Curse and mark of Cain and Curse of Ham for sources and discussion about the american theo-cultural doctrines against blacks. -Visorstuff 21:23, 17 March 2006 (UTC)

Actually, bcatt's answer does address my question in that it lists specific wordings considered less than neutral, with suggestions for improved language. Let me pick and choose just a couple things from the list that we might be able to agree on. Saying that Smith converted many followers seems almost redundant when the article already says he founded the Latter-day saint movement. But if it is worth mentioning that in particular, then it's probably also worth at least mentioning that were some ex-Mormons who became disenchanted with his teachings after a time. The intro probably isn't the place to list examples by name though. And when mentioning the opposition by Christian clergy, a link to Mormonism and Christianity seems appropriate, as (if I recall) that article is intended to present actual distinctions between Mormonism and Christianity. As far as being abolitionist and racist, I'm just speculating but I would guess that a number of Northern abolitionists may have been reluctant to seek employment at a business owned by an African American. It seems possible to consider another race inferior while still not believing they are subhuman or deserving of slavery. So, it seems at least plausible that Smith could have been both abolitionist and racist; but the question should be settled by historical references, not by my speculation or anyone else's speculation. Wesley 22:19, 17 March 2006 (UTC)

This is what makes the situation difficult and frustrating for me. Smith and the Mormons were kicked out of Missouri primarily because of political power - and what political power was feared - the overturning of slavery. There is only speculation of racism - while there is documentation that Smith treated African American's well. Trödel 23:45, 20 March 2006 (UTC)

Polygamy

Regarding the controversy over using the word "polygamy," I reviewed the articles polygamy, polygyny and plural marriage. At the moment, the polygamy and polygyny articles say that polygyny and polyandry are both subsets of polygamy, the chief distinction being that polygyny and polyandry are about multiple sexual partners and polygamy adds that these multiple partners are married. The plural marriage article seems to use both terms, but favors "polygamy." As far as putting Smith in a better or worse light, it would seem that using the term that puts the relationships into some sort of marriage context would be more favorable, and would be more compatible with the plural marriage article's suggestion that he may not have consummated the marriage to his 14 year old wife. Also, the plural marriage article says that some of Smith's wives remained also married to their previous husbands, which if true would be cases of polyandry. That would make using a term that encompasses both more fitting and more concise. Wesley \

So, did I just happen to catch one of these articles in an edit war so that I've been grossly misled? Or does this fairly capture the distinctions between these terms? If I'm describing the different terms correctly, what exactly are the objections to saying "polygamy" instead of "polygny?" Wesley 13:20, 18 March 2006 (UTC)

Let me go back from the talk page discussions at Polygamy - This was part of a discussion about Group marriage, and whether or not it qualifies as polygamy:

I can understand why and how someone might make that simple mistake. "Group marriage" does not meet the definition of polygamy, as it is neither polygyny nor polyandry. Instead, it is a unique concept completely on its own and separate from polygamy. Just as monogamy means one with one, polygamy means one with many. Hence, in polygamy, there is either one husband with many wives (polygyny) or one wife with many husbands (polyandry). [5].

I'm all for using the term plural marriage. However, it's not a term that would be widely understood. As 90 percent dictionaries include a definition for polygyny as "The condition or practice of having more than one wife at one time." [6], Polygamy as "The condition or practice of having more than one spouse at one time." [7] and Polyandry as "The condition or practice of having more than one husband at one time." [8]. Interstingly enough, this particular entry on Polygamy does include "Also called plural marriage." To a mormon who believes that marriage will last after this life, eternal polyandry is not typically believed to be possible. Smith taught eternal polygyny, not eternal polyandry, and not eternal polygamy. Those women who were legally married to more than one man (smith and someone else) would have been "sealed" to smith for "eternity," and married for "time" to their current husbands. In most of those cases, the evidence is that he did not consumate the marriage with those already married to others (always disputable). So smith taught polygyny after this life, not other forms of polygamy. Just my thoughts from a cultural perspective within mormonism. Currently, in Mormonism if a man is married and his wife dies, he may remarry and be sealed to another woman (who has not been sealed to another). Thus in the afterlife, he would have two wives. However, a woman whose husband dies, when she remarries she may not be sealed to another man, but is married for time only. she therefore will not have more than one husband. This gets more complicated by new policy on the sealing of deceased ancestors (where both are dead and were married to others), but as a whole the cultural belief within mormonism is that men may have multiple wives in the afterlife, but women may only have one husband. There is no official doctrine on this within Mormonism, only speculation, but that's the cultural belief. -Visorstuff 23:25, 20 March 2006 (UTC)

So if I understand you correctly, you're saying that what Smith practiced was not polygamy but "group marriage" or "plural marriage" meaning a marriage between ( or among?) two or more men and two or more women. If the marriage were of one man to multiple women, or one woman to multiple men, then and only then it would qualify as polygamy. Is that a fair summary? If it is, I would point out what both you and others on Talk:Polygamy said about how most dictionaries actually define these words, and consequently how most people understand them. Even if your definitions are technically correct in anthropology circles, "polygamy" as commonly defined and understood is still a fair description, meaning simply a marriage that encompasses more than two spouses. If you really want to push for using more specialized definitions, is there any reference to support them, like perhaps a dictionary of anthropology? Wesley \

The distinctions about marriage for "time" and "eternity" are certainly interesting and deserving of explanation, since they seem unique to Mormonism. That "current cultural understanding" should only go in this article if it reflects what Smith himself taught and practiced on the subject. Any doubts or controversies about which or how many of Smith's marriages were consummated is probably relevant. Wesley 18:10, 21 March 2006 (UTC)

The dispute history (abridged version

I'm puling this from archive 7 and current talk page - I also put in specific issues with my alleged abuse of admin powers (two main interactions with Bcatt) - I apologize in advance for including them, but that is a serious accusation in my mind (and should be discussed at my talk page, not here):

An anon stated that "Reviewing the editing history, it appears any changes actively maintain the pro-Church bias a la FARMS and other Church publicity machines" Bcatt agreed with this summation.
Bcatt had an issue with "this article needs some neutralizing and I am personally looking at it. I am particularly bothered by the repeated reference to Mormons as the "Saints" - that in itself is a heavy POV assertion that Mormon belief is indisputable" and "Use of the term "Saints" in reference to Mormons, is only in use by those who are religious, it is NOT a universally used term, and therefore, it's use in the article is misleading"
Storm Rider suggested that Bcatt study and understand Mormon terminology - as a group they are referred to as Latter-day Saints. He stated, "BCATT, before you go editing an article please make sure you understand and have a deep understanding of the topic. Without knowledgable editors, edits create massive amounts of work for everyone who does have in-depth expertise in a given field. This article is the result of many editors from both sides." This appears to be exactly what happened.
Bcatt stated "very little is mentioned about the more controversial topics related to Joseph Smith. I was not out of line in adding the NPOV notice, as I did state my biggest concern, and am now stating more of my concerns."
Her concern that "The article is also very misleading as to JS's alleged "visions" speaking of them as though they are proven fact, whereas they are actually no more than a claim made by JS himself."
Bcatt stated "it is NOT customary for religious articles to be written from the point of view of the people who hold those beliefs." This is not in accordance with presedence set on religious articles for the past four years, which are written from the point of view of believers...and detractors.
"There are many opposing views regarding mormonisn not expressed here, and therefore the article is heavily biased and I am going to restore the NPOV tag"
Storm Rider stated that the above was not specific NPOV objections: "Notice BCATT that you have not followed proper procedure; most importantly you have not clearly and exactly explained which part of the article does not see to meet NPOV policy and WHY"
The following phrases are NPOV according to Bcatt:

Smith was not allowed to receive the plates until 1827. (because the angel told him so)
Four years had passed since Moroni, the angel that had told Smith about the plates, first appeared, with periodic visits occurring in the interim. Finally, in September 1827, Moroni allowed Smith to take the gold plates, but had strictly forbidden him from showing them to any person without authorization.
Soon after Smith recieved the Golden Plates, his focus turned to getting the engravings on them translated.
Smith began transcribing characters engraved on the plates
Smith returned to Harmony and dictated to Emma his first written revelation, which rebuked him for losing the manuscript pages, but assured Smith that all was not lost, because if Smith repented of what he had done, God would "only cause thee to be afflicted for a season, and thou art still chosen, and wilt again be called to the work"
Smith's translation was sporadic.
the work he was dictating from the Golden Plates was a revolutionary and "marvelous work" of religion
Cowdery, like Smith, had the "gift" of translating ancient documents, as well as the "gift" of working with the "rod of nature", which would allow him to discern God's will much as Smith had been doing by looking through his seer stones and Urim and Thummim.
Cowdery acted as Smith's scribe for the majority of Smith's dictation
They baptized each other immediately thereafter, exercising their new authority.
Peter, James, and John also came to them during either May or June 1829 and ordained them to the Melchizedek Priesthood.
When translation was complete, Smith published his dictated work

- Side note: I personally believe that the article was up until this point very stable. It was a featured article candidate, it clearly stated that the above were what Mormons/LDS believe took place and personally, I don't think we need qualifying statements such as "allegedly" or "claims" every time a statement is made. It also spun out articles about smith for different time periods of his life (see Early life of Joseph Smith, Jr., Life of Joseph Smith, Jr. from 1827 to 1831, Life of Joseph Smith, Jr. from 1831 to 1844, Death of Joseph Smith, Jr.) - so this article should have only been a brief overview. This seems to be where things derailed into a edit conflict. The next edit is where LDS editors were accused of "owning" the article
Trodel pointed out the other articles as a in-depth place to address these issues: "This article can not cover every detail but needs to focus on an overview of JS life in order to stay encyclopedic i.e. a well written succinct article"
Storm Rider fixed some edits - translated to dictated, etc. Bcatt wanted the qualifiers such as "claimed" added in.
Bcatt wanted "I can't see anyone being able to argue with the use of "Joseph Smith said" or, "wrote" or "According to Smith" or any similar form of attribution" in most paragraphs and that without it would "present a NPOV to the average reader" that would be confused that the events actually happened. Same with Saints. She suggested it is solely a Catholic word: "another thing that'll probably be hard for y'all to take is that Catholicism has been around a LOT longer and this use of "saint" is WAY more ingrained in humanity's head than the mormon reference to themselves as saints"
FyzixFighter suggested that we change the term Saints to Latter-day Saints (actually, we'd have to use both "Latter-day Saints" and "Latter Day Saints" to stay NPOV, which would seem wordy)
Storm Rider suggested that the article "intially define the term Saint"
Cogden and FyzixFighter stated that they thought the use of Saint is a non-issue: "Requiring LDS articles to disclaim the use of the word saint would be like requiring Catholic articles to disclaim the term catholic: after all, some people don't agree that the Catholic Church is really catholic in the uncapitalized sense" All instances of Saints were changed to Latter-day Saints.
Bcatt stated that the term ""Latter Day Saints" is too ambiguous" and "Cogden...how on earth is the term catholic not the same as Catholic? This really makes no sense. "
There was discussion between Storm Rider and Bcatt on the use of the words Polygamy and Polygyny. Bcatt felt that Polygamy was more appropriate: "plural marriage is polygamy, polygyny does not necessarily include marriage."
This deteriorated into a long rants and personal attacks.
Alienus (a non-Mormon editor) asked Bcatt: "What specific changes do you suggest to balance this article?"
This is her response:

The first thing that needs to happen is that there needs to be a ban (from this article only) of any number of pro-LDSers that is greater than the number neutrals and anti-LDSers, and the LDSers need to be regulated as to their OWNing behaviour of the article and their attacks on anyone who attempts to inject neutrality into it. I am seriously at the end of my rope with this and will do whatever it takes to see that the mormon wikipedia presence stops lording over this article.

After that, there really wasn't anything substantive - just petty fighting. From Mormon mobbing, to polygamy being used, to sourcing information, to the use of Southpark as a reference, to LDS editors and Bcatt being trolls, to sock puppeting. Bcatt left an alert at Wikipedia:Wikiquette alerts. As the article is of interest to me (and I know a thing or two about the topic), it was at this Talk:Joseph_Smith,_Jr./Archive_7#Stepping_in point that I stepped in and offered to mediate and suggested a wikiholiday for all involved. Storm Rider and I discussed via email and he agreed to wikiholiday the page. Bcatt mentioned that I treated her unfairly during the exchange. Cookiecaper apologized and The Scurvy Eye suggested that my help was a good idea. I stated to Bcatt that "some of your arguments do not make sense" (ie Polygyny/Polygamy, Saints/saints/Latter-day Saints, limiting mormon editors on the page), and suggested reaching a consensus. She said that would only lead ato "approval by a faction controlling an article" and that "As an admin, you should be well aware that this is not an acceptable way to conduct things" As you know, I take my admin duties seriously, so at this point I backed down from helping for a time. I will not make that mistake again, however, as I've not abused my status at that point, nor the second time she accused me of this - see my talk page for the accusations. The rest is on this page -- I'll run through quickly -- basically issues with the term "extermination order" (which now appears in many US history text books), issues with the Three Witnesses (who actually have their own article, and really shouldn't be in this one) which Alienus (non-lds editor) made some great suggestions on and were accepted by everyone but Bcatt, because of supposedly contradictory accounts by Harris as to what he "saw" with his "spiritual eyes." (again, not appropriate for discussion on this page). However, Alienus suggested that we use these sources, which was disagreed with by Val42 and StormRider. Alienus is right, however, that is already done at the appropriate article, not here whwere it is not appropriate (this article is about Joseph Smith, not to critique the three witnesses testimonies). Freedom in thought then joined the discussion, and was accused of being a sock puppet, and made initial threats to Storm Rider "Note that you may be blocked for disruption" Bcatt was accused of not understanding the issues she is editing, and therefore really shouldn't be editing the article because she stated "book of mormon is JS's interpretation of the bible" which some editors took to mean that she doesn't understand any of the basics of Mormonism. (and to be honest, shows ignorance as to the contents of the book of mormon) The rest of her issues may be found here And this is again where I stepped in to suggest finding out who a sock puppet is and being accused of abusing admin powers and here is where we are.

I do have to say, Alienus and Cookiecaper have done a fairly good job at trying to build consensus and stay positive. Freedom in thought and its Mormonlicious both appear to be sock puppets - of whom, and why, doesn't matter as it is to no-ones benefit or harm in this case.

There is a history of issues. Hope it helps. -Visorstuff 18:10, 17 March 2006 (UTC)

Your comments about me are complete lies. I am not a "sock puppet". You have NO RIGHT to continue this barrage of INSULTS against me and everyone else who takes a NPOV. Your assertion that I made a "threat" is equally a complete fabrication. I simply delivered the warning as defined by Wiki Policy. Openly attempting this assasination of my character without any evidence whatsoever IS a BLATENT abuse of priviledges. Yes that IS SERIOUS. This level of DISGUSTING HARRASSMENT has placed me in the inevitable position to bring this to higher levels of administration. --FreedominThought 01:21, 19 March 2006 (UTC)

Seconded, all the way! bcatt 02:06, 19 March 2006 (UTC)

FreedominThought, you say that VisorStuff's comments are complete lies. Does this mean you deny that you were ever accused of being a sock puppet? That's essentially what he said above. Assuming for the moment that you have been unjustly accused of being a sock puppet, I completely fail to see how that is an "abuse of privileges," since making such an accusation does not require the exercising of any particular privilege, aside from the privilege of editing a Wikipedia page, one that's granted to everyone. Shouting in ALL CAPS doesn't help. The other claim, that you 'threatened' or 'delivered a warning', the only disagreement seems to be as to how best to characterize that warning. I would advise you on how to bring this to 'higher levels of administration', but you seem well enough informed as to such procedures already. If I'm mistaken, I apologize in advance. And again, everyone, let's try to return this page to a discussion of how to improve the article. Wesley 20:17, 19 March 2006 (UTC)

That is a partial history of issues. How about the actual history including parts left out above (parts in parentheses are my comments):

Prior to my involvement, there was a comment left regarding neutrality issues, specifically, stating unproven things as facts. This comment was ignored, but was later agreed with by another editor, who was also ignored (my guess is that since they made no move to edit the article, they weren't seen as a threat)
The anon expressed concerns regarding bias.
Storm Rider tells anon that only Mormons have an objective view and therefore anon must have "an axe to grind".
I agreed with anon's points for why the article needs some work, and noted also my issue with use of "Saints".
Storm Rider puts inflammatory emphasis on my name, then dictates who may and may not edit the article...through the "discussion", it is eventually revealed that knowledgeable means "Mormons or anyone who is willing to write the way Mormons want the article written", while unknowledgable means "anyone who wants to add information to the article that Mormon editors don't like people finding out about or any author whose works do not cast Mormons in a positive light". Storm rider falsely claims that I haven't given any reasons for disputing the neutrality of the article
- In the meantime, Storm Rider leaves a message on my talk page, again putting inflammatory emphasis on my name, again falsely accusing me of not giving reasons for the npov tag, again attacking me as unknowledgable, and tells me that the article should be written in language that Mormons approve of.
I listed more reasons for disputing neutrality (controversial topics, or details on such topics, left out; unproven topics, such as first vision, represented as fact; opposing views not represented or represented only in passing). Reminded Storm ider that I am not the only person questioning the neutrality. Pointed out that religious articles were not exempt from the rules of NPOV. (although Visorstuff states that I am wrong on this point, I will not accept that without being shown official policy that states that religious articles do not need to adhere to NPOV). Said I believed that there were probably many NPOV concerns similar to mine in archived discussions and suggested the possibility that some may have even been deleted (this very last bit may have been a questionable move on my part, but when new editors are immediately met with hostility, it is a very real possibility that comes to mind...also not that I did not say that any particular person may have done this (nor used Storm Riders tactic of equivocation - implying a specific person, while trying to avoid responsibility for accusing that person), and I certainly did not say that it had been done.
FyzixFighter makes a compromise suggestion of using "Latter Day Saints" in place of "Saints", agrees that all views should be represented with weight appropriate to their significance, and agrees that more should probably be mentioned about opposing views within the context of how they relate to Smith, addressed his opinion that I had made a veiled accusation (regarding the possibility of deleted comments) - his characterization blew it out of proportion, but he was otherwise extremely reasonable so I did not pursue this comment with him. He asks that good faith be assumed.
Storm Rider uses the weasel words: "I must assume good faith, but" before launching into a personal attack accusing me of "witch hunting" and calling me "ignorant", claims to know what I have and have not read and implies that anything not written by pro-Mormon authors should not be used...he then seems to try to justify these attacks by saying that there are lots of Mormon related articles and makes reference to vandalism and anonymous users (though I don't see how this relates to the issues at hand, unless it is itself a "veiled accusation"). He then continues to make veiled attacks like "we all look forward to your enlightened thoughts" and refers me to the portion of the NPOV policy that Fyzix referred to (which was actually the one that I had originally referred to - so he was telling me I should read something which I had already read and was actually using to back my arguments), as though I must not be familiar with it...then continues with more attacks that I have "limited knowledge", am "spouting off", characterizing my genuine and legitimate concern about the way npov disputes are handled (as seen above) as thinking there is a "dark, evil cabal", attempts to imply that there is no attempt to control the article, then attacks me again by calling me "disingenious", than accuses me (just like the anon) of having "an axe to grind". He then tells me that I am not allowed to make any edits based on information from non-supportive literature and admits that these attempts have already been prevented in the past.
- Storm Rider then leaves another message on my talk page. Again, he falsely accuses me of not giving reasons for the npov tag, falsely accuses me of making "broad accusations" (as though he hasn't been making broad accusations all along), then threatens that if I don't do it the way he directs me to, it will be reverted (but I subsequently did it his way, and it still got reverted), claims that he assumes good faith (which is obviously not true) then implies that I have somehow proven myself unworthy of good faith (a broad accusation not supported by facts)
Storm Rider quotes from the NPOV tutorial on how to start an NPOV dispute and claims that I have not followed these instructions, puts inflammatory emphasis on my name again, but even moreso this time, again falsely accuses me of not giving reasons, and justifies this claim by saying that my reasons must be exhaustive, again claims that I have made broad accusations. Threatens that if I do not do this to his satisfaction, he will again delete the npov tag.
- Storm Rider leaves another message on my talk page telling me that "Saint is a term used by everyone who has a modicum of understanding about Mormonism", told me to "put my axe down", admitted that I obviously have a good enough mind to bring a lot of good to this article, but told me again that I didn't know what I was talking about anyway.
- Storm Rider leaves another message on my talk page, agan putting excessively inflammatory emphasis on my name, and copied most of the message from this talk page into the message on my talk page.
I respond that while an article should describe the views of supporters, it should not be written from that view, and I provide an analogy using an imaginary "religion" based on the healthiness of fruit, giving summarized examples of what would and would not be acceptable ways to represent supportive and opposing views. I then give an exhaustively detailed list of every instance in the first two sub-sections of the article that were written from a supportive POV, rather than describing the views in neutral language. I then summarized why I had issues with these examples and pointed out that the list did not include the rest of the article or any of the sub-articles. I again described why I had an issue with the use of the term "Saints", and also pointed out that the article did not touch on the important subject of Smith being charged with fraud not too long before beginning to write the BoM.
Regretfully, I retaliated to Storm Rider's inflammatory name emphasis and did the same in my next message, in which I addressed Storm Rider's owning behaviour, pointed out that he was not giving the impression of interest in NPOV because of his "nit-picking silly things" (instead of facilitating and engaging in constructive discussion), and addressed his attempts to demean me (through personal attacks). I then quoted several points from NPOV policy that supported my position.
- I responded to the messages left on my talk page by Storm Rider: I asked why he insisted on putting the excessive on my name and pointed out that this was unnecessary and inflammatory. Pointed out that although Storm Rider doesn't agree with the reason, use of "Saints", for the npov tag, it is still a reason and also pointed out that in addition to this reason, I was also agreeing with the reasons given by the anon as to why the article does not meet NPOV, which is the same as giving reasons. I pointed out that not only can a person recognize POV without a deep understanding of a subject, but Storm Rider has no basis for questioning my understanding of the topic in the first place. Pointed out that having an issue with the use of "Saints" instead of "Latter day Saints" did not indicate lack of understanding (as Storm Rider claimed), it only demonstrated my interest in using non-ambiguous terms that all readers can understand. Pointed out that the "average reader" is the target audience of wikipedia articles, which is why NPOV is important, and that such a reader is very likely to read "Saints" as the catholic meaning rather than the Mormon meaning, and quoted the meaning given in the Saint article. I listed all the other reasons I had given for adding the npov tag, and pointed out that these issues, while not being "nit-pickingly specific", were not "broad accusations" either. Pointed out that I was quite sure he was aware of how inappropriate his behaviour in regard to this article is, and that he is not the final word on what can and cannot go into articles, but that he saw himself as such. Suggested that he read WP:DNFT (as a soft suggestion that his behaviour could be seen as trolling). I addressed his claim that I had somehow shown myself as not deserving of good faith treatment by raising NPOV concerns, pointing out that having NPOV concerns does not indicate bad intentions. Pointed out the fault in the logic that "anyone who understands Mormonism calls Mormons "Saints". Pointed out that he cannot very well accuse me of having an "axe to grind" when he is the one attacking and patronizing people interested in NPOV this article. Asked him for proof that I do not have an understanding of Mormonism, sarcastically requesting non-Mormon sources. Pointed out that I was not actually that far off on the procedure that he demanded be used to start an NPOV dispute and that he was simply nit-picking for excuses to prevent me from having this issues addressed. Pointed out that I had, by then, indeed added a very exhaustive list of all the issues in the first two sub-sections of the article (I now write my article edits and talk page comments in two tabs and post them simultaneously to avoid being accused of not supporting my edits within seconds of making them), I told him that his "watchdog routine" was unnecessary. Pointed out that it was Storm Rider himself who was not adding content to the discussion, but just throwing around accusation and insults. I suggested that he spend more time making sure he does not abuse policy (such as telling me I didn't follow proper procedure because I continued the NPOV dispute under the previous heading "This article is quite biased" instead of putting it under a new heading called "NPOV dispute") and less time trying to discredit valid concerns.
Trodel characterizes this article and the sub-articles as mostly "rumour and innuendo" against Smith, then contradicts himself by saying that it follows NPOV, then contradicts himself again by saying that is uses sympathetic language with regard to the opposition (though this last point is clearly untrue, sympathetic language is used towards Smith and followers while the opposition is characterized as doing nothing but wrongs toward Smith and his followers); he also excused the absence of opposing views by saying those details should stay in the sub-articles. This was his reasoning for removing the npov tag (edit summary said that the tag was unsupported)
- I wrote a message on Trodels talk page at the same time that he was leaving the above message (he had not previously left reasons in discussion, so I assumed he wouldn't this time, and maybe should have waited a few minutes); I suggested that he may not have read the reasons given on the talk page and pointed out that I had given reasons for the npov tag; I pointed out that he did not discuss removing it before doing so, and also questioned how this behaviour (all of the above "discussion", plus the repeated removal of the npov tag when there is clearly an ongoing npov dispute) was supposed to show that there wasn't a hidden agenda
I then saw the message on this talk page and responded by asking if he had read the list of examples of POV in the article where Smith's claims (visions, etc) are stated as facts, I pointed out that since these things are not proveable, they need to be represented poperly (so as to not mislead the reader), I also pointed out that since these claims are represented as proven facts when they aren't, that this is POV, which is against policy, which is why the npov tag is supported
- I then left a message on Trodel's talk page (note: at this time, I had recalled reading something about "sympathetic treatment" in the NPOV policy, and instead of looking it up again, I had good faith that Trodel wasn't misrepresenting the policy, and so was going on the understanding that "sympathetic treatment" was the same as not characterizing a view as wrong), I said that there was a difference between sympathetic treatment and POv, with sympathetic treatment being the statement that "so and so has this view", while POV is saying "this is a fact" (when it is actually a view), I pointed out that nearly every paragraph of this article contains POV through the representation of views as facts, I asked him to reread my reasons on this talk page and consider reinserting the npov tag
Trodel left a message here that using "claim(s/ed)" to distinguish between fact and opinion is POV against Smith, and that if "described" is used earlier in the paragraph, that NPOV is established (however, he was talking about the description of two different (though related) events, and I personally don't see "described" as properly establishing that it is an opinion, "said" or "wrote" or something similar, sure, but "described" still gives the impression that it is fact); Trodels opinion is that a source needs only be identified once (even if it is in relation to more than one point (feel free to ask for further clarification if you don't undersstand why I take issue with this). He says that establishing each opinion as an opinion makes Smith's relation of events look like teenage fantasy, therefore, only the first opinion should be identified as such and the reader will then be able to know from there which of the following parts are opinions.
- Trodel left a message on my talk page that the article uses strong language both for and against Smith (though didn't give any examples of strong language on the opposing side, and I personally don't see how this is true)
- I responded on Trodels talk page that if this was the case then the opposite POV also needed changing, and pointed out that his description of how things were did not make the article non-POV, it just made it POV in both directions, and therefore had twice as much reason for the npov tag
- Trodel responded on my talk page that the npov tag should only be used when the article needs "wholesale changing"
I left a message on this talk page that it was not necessary to use "claim" in particular, that lots of other articles use this word and lots of other articles use alternatives. I pointed out that establishing what is opinion/belief and what is fact is not POV, but rather is adherance to NPOV, and supported this with quotes from NPOV policy. I pointed out that the issues I had raised were examples of where opinions are stated as facts in the article, that this did not follow policy. I asked him to clarify if representation of opinions/beliefs as opinions/beliefs (rather than stating them as though they are facts) was what he meant by POV going both ways. I pointed out that nobody can help or change what is fact and what is opinion/belief and that each needs to be representated for what it is, that it is inappropriate to blur or distort the lines between facts and opinions. I pointed out that if Trodel thought that proper identification of what parts were opinion made Smith look so bad, then it was possibly a reason for him to rethink his beliefs, but it wasn't a reason to state opinions as facts, stressing that it's not my fault or wikipedia's fault, or anyone's fault that many of Smith's claims cannot be proven to have actually happened. I asked him to read Wikipedia:Information suppression, with the explaination that non-Mormon views were not being properly represented. I also raised the issue that non-Mormon sources were not cited in the article
FyzixFighter responded constructively to my list of problem areas in the article, and pointed out one that I had listed erronously, he very clearly demonstrated willingness to make compromises by saying that while he believed "Saints" was ok, he also had no opposition to using a less ambiguous term and suggested "Latter Day Saints", but also advocated confining the topic of Smith's fraud charges to a sub-article (this is an important fact in regard to Smith's visions and his "revelations" in writing the BoM, so I don't agree with this point), he also agreed that more non-Mormon sources should be used to avoid an implied POV but said there were a few
I thanked FyzixFighter for responding constructively to the issues I raised and continued the discussion, I agreed that I had listed one erronously, I agreed that "Latter Day Saints" was definitely acceptable as a substitute for "Saint", and suggested "LDS" and "Smith's followers" as other possible alternatives (to avoid repetition), and said I was fine with anything that was non-ambiguous, I clarified that my mention of the lack of non-Mormon sources was not intended to discredit the current sources, just that I was seeking a balance (as per NPOV policy) between Mormon and non-Mormon sources, I said that I hadn't seen any non-Mormon sources and asked if he could point out any that I missed
FyzixFighter constructively continued the discussion on the points I had raised, and on one point he made a suggestion but said that it might not work because it makes it POV in the opposite direction; he also agreed with using alternatives to "claim" that still properly establish what parts are opinion, and showed me the two sources that he didn't think were Mormon sources, and said that it probably wouldn't be appropriate to "throw out" any sources. He asked if any other editors had objections to using "Latter Day Saints" in place of "Saints", and said that although he didn't understand my objections, he was willing to compromise
- I asked on Trodel's talk page if he could show me where the policy says that an article must be "a certain amount of POV" in order to warrant the npov tag
Nerd42 says that while "Saints" is not NPOV, "saints" is (however, the style guide says that names of groups should be capitalized - and I don't see how one is less ambiguous than the other, which was my concern with its use), he admits that using the term saints would look weird to Catholics, but justifies this by saying that it is not intended to imply anything (although the actual point is to not use ambiguous terms in ways that a reader is unlikely to understand).
I responded to FyzixFighters suggestions, including agreeing that he was probably correct that his tentative suggestion would change the part from POV for Smith to POV against Smith, and suggested we find a way to change it without having that effect; I was also very clear that I was not intent on using "claim(s/ed)" in particular, and that any words showing attribution was quite fine with me as long as opinions were not represented as facts; I stressed that I had not suggested throwing out any sources, only that more non-Mormon sources needed to be added, and that the same was true for external links; I explained my objections to the use of "Saints" (out of respect FyzixFighters efforts, so that he would understand the change he was agreeing to): the majority of non-Mormons associate "Saint" (and "saint") with Catholicism, and in Catholicism it is a value judgement of a particular persons character, and so when the average non-Mormon reads "Saints" in this article, they are likely to read it as such a judgement of character, and summarized that "Saint" is ambiguous while "Latter Day Saint" is a clear reference that doesn't apply to anyone/thing else. I also pointed out again (not to FyzixFighter, but in general) that the npov tag needed to be be reinserted because there was still ongoing issues
I responded to Nerd42s comment by pointing out that wikipedias purpose was to provide information to the average reader, not to Mormons in particular, and explained that the average reader would not read "Saints" or "saints" as Mormons would read it, instead, they would be most likely to read it in it's Catholic meaning, or alternatively, to read it in a general meaning as "saintly, unreproachable people", I also pointed out that the Catholic meaning has been around much longer and is way more ingrained in poeple's heads than the Mormon meaning.
Storm Rider advocates the continued use of "Saints" by saying that it should be defined once then used thereon throughout the article. He admitted that since I have an issue with the term, others were likely to have an issue with it also. He said that there was a problem with using the term "member" (which I don't recall suggesting and can't find any place where I suggested this term) and "other similar terms" (presumeably referring to "Latter Day Saints", "LDS", and "Smith's followers") because these are somehow ambiguous while "Saints" is not ambiguous, and justified this with reference to the current day (even though this article relates to Smith's life and the state of things then)
COgden says that "Saint" and "Latter Day Saint" are different terms with different meanings (which supports my argument), then says that the reader can look them up if it occurs to them to want to know the difference (apparently advocating using "Saints" as a reference to "Latter Day Saints"), he then says that wanting to use a term other than "Saints" is like not wanting Catholic articles to use the term "catholic" and that "catholic" sometimes has meanings other than a reference to Catholicism (which doesn't make any sense to me...can anybody explain this?)
FyzixFighter describes his changes in relation to the issues I raised, says it shouldn't be a problem to use "Latter Day Saints" in place of "Saints", because this is just as easy as defining "Saint" at the outset, and points out that from a technical standpoint, using "Latter Day Saints" is the better alternative anyway
- Trodel leaves a message on my talk page saying that the npov tag is not appropriate because it implies that the article is not neutral instead of implying that different viewpoints are worded in the best way possible (I don't understand this argument because the whole point of the issues that I raised was that they were not worded in the best way possible); he admits that the article could not get featured status because of the way things are worded, and admits that it is difficult for the major editors of this article to draft without bias; he then says he suggested I make edits (which isn't true), and also says that I did not make any suggestions for improving the article (which is only partly true, I was attempting to make suggestions, which was difficult when the discussion was being bogged down by Storm Rider's attacks), and implies that I am being lazy in this regard
Storm Rider acknowledges FyzixFighters efforts, then characterizes me and another new editor (presumeably the anon at the beginning of this discussion) as "demanding", as says that new editors tend to give the impression that "anything that is remotely positive" about Smith should be left out of the article (though nothing was suggested to be left out of the article, so this is presumeably referring to wanting to clearly represent opinions as opinions). He admits that he overreacts to appropriate concerns, but justifies this by saying that it "remains to be seen" whether the concerns are actually appropriate
FyzixFighter describes his edits
I responded to Storm Rider and COgden's defense of "Saints", pointing out contradictions in their arguments. Questioned COgden about how "catholic" could "not relate to "Catholic"". I pointed out that a search on "saint" takes one to the article on the Catholic term, and that this article capitalizes the word. I explained that if a search for "saint" took one to an article related to Mormonism, I would not have taken issue with it's usage. Used the goole test to show that a search of "catholic" yeilds only Catholic results, and that a search for "Saint" also returns predominantly Catholic results, with many ambiguous results such as cities, colleges, etc, and no Mormon results on at least the first four pages of results (I didn't look past the first four pages, so this does not mean that there were Mormon results on the fifth page). I agreed with FyzixFighter that "Saints" was not a good choice in the technical sense, and also pointed out that it was not positive points about Smith that were being disputed, but rather the suppression of opposing views and the representation of Smith's claims as facts.
I left another message telling FyzixFighter that things were looking much better since his edits
I left another message suggesting that since the same image was used twice on the page, that the image in one of the info boxes be changed (this suggestion was completely ignored)
- I responded to Trodel on his talk page saying that I found it pointless to communicate with him regarding the NPOV concerns because he did not respond directly to what I say and does not make logical arguments. I said it was a waste of my time trying to be logical with someone who is too influenced by their bias to be logical in return. Suggested that he read up on NPOV.
Storm Rider characterizes my response as a "diatribe" (this is a word he uses repeatedly to characterize any argument he cannot produce a counter-argument for), while ignoring the fact that I was responding to previous arguments (but I suppose I'm not allowed to do this, I should just let them make faulty arguments, so the article can be based on those arguments); then, (after previously insisting that I am not allowed to edit the article, and must get permission through the talk page first, and this being demonstrated through the reversion of every edit I attempt to make) Storm Rider tells me I should be editing the article instead of trying to propose changes on the talk page; says that I "like to gripe" and that I am on a "self-righteous high horse", and characterizes me as lazy for trying to accomodate the demands previously made of me (namely, going through a proposal process for changes I would like to see...also, I had been trying to be careful not to "step on any toes" while still trying to affect change in the article); tells me to add into the article the things I think are not covered (I did this, with sources attributed, and it was promptly reverted); then justifies his attacks by saying that I "whine incessantly on the Talk page and do nothing to ameliorate the situation" (again, it is important to point out that every edit I have ever made to this article has been wholesale reverted, save for the latest addition of the npov tag (which had been reverted three or four times previously))
I was fed up at this point and said that Storm Rider needed "a big, fat reality check"
Storm Rider defends the use of polygyny, quoting from the polygyny article (which, to Storm Rider's (partial) credit, erronously defined polygyny as specifically a marriage relationship), that polygyny was marriage to more than one woman (I had changed it to polygamy because polygyny may not involve marriage, plus I was also researching whether this also resulted in polyandry, which turned out to be the case); then he says that I have done nothing to improve the article "but rather you sit back and say what is wrong. THAT IS A REALITY CHECK, BIG AND FAT!"
- Trodel vandalizes my talk page and censors his own
- I restore the material deleted from my talk page and leave a message on Trodel's talk page that I don't appreciate the vandalism
I responded to Storm Rider by showing the etymology of polygamy and polygyny: "poly=many, gynos=woman, gamos=marriage - simple etymology - one can be with many women without actually marrying them. Thus, the fundamental difference between polygyny and polygamy"; I pointed out that my last comment regarding the use of "Saints" was only in response to his "incessant whining" (term used only because that is how he characterized my concerns, though still not acceptable, I know) in defense of using the term; I said that he was upset that I provided arguments that could be backed up, whereas he only made arguments based on his own POV and was unable to back them with impartial sources; I pointed out that I don't "sit back", and that I have made many valuable contributions to wikipedia and that I didn't see the same level of contribution from him (not to say that he should do more, just to point out that he can hardly accuse me of doing nothing when I have made more contributions to the project than he has); I pointed out that he didn't have much basis for calling me self-righteous because I have raised specific and valid issues, while he has "sat back and "lorded" over this article, arbitrarily deciding what can and cannot be done to it", linked to WP:OWN, and pointed out that he attempts to derail discussions to prevent unwanted editors (like myself) from editing the article. I pointed out that it actually does take work to go through and identify the areas that need work, and pointed out that his attempts to derail these attempts at discussion was trolling. Pointed out that his comments to me were hypocritical.
Cookiecaper then jumps in and reprimands me in regard to civility and personal attacks (but ignores Storm Rider's antics); he defends the use of "Saints" and implies that some opinions can be stated as facts because "claimed, purported, and similar words can only be used so many times"
FyzixFighter requests that the discussion get back on track and contributes some constructive discussion
- Storm Rider says on my talk page that I have not contributed anything valuable to wikipedia. he says that I "do not use sources" I "just whine", and that I do not review the sources used by others, I just "blather on as if they don't exist"; he says that he has not said anything that is his opinion (a blatant lie), and says he has "consistently referred to other WIKI articles" (apparently, doing something once indicates regular practice); he then makes a comment regarding my personal life.
- I responded: "Read the conversation on the JS talk page again...you will se that I have in fact provided wikipedia POLICY to support my suggestions of the changes needed, whereas you have done nothing but whine that you don't want anybody changing anything because the proposed changes don't fit with your POV. I'm sorry that it upsets you that your pain-in-the-rear techniques have not worked in deterring me from seeking NPOV on ALL wikipedia articles, I'm sure it works with many people, but it won't work with me. So suck it up, don't try to own the article, and allow the subject to be represented in a manner that equally reflects both pro- and anti- JS views...that is what wikipedia is all about."
- Trodel leaves a message on my talk page implying that by telling him not to vandalize my talk page, I was "not being true to my word" that I did not see a point in discussing the article with him (which seems to be an attempt to incite argument)
I try to address why I am having difficulty staying on track with the discussion: addressing Storm Rider's behaviour, particularly the fact that he is intentionally inflammatory, and point out that this is trolling; I point out that once Storm Rider is successful in "pissing off" another user, that user (me) is reprimanded, while Storm Rider's behaviour is ignored; I also pointed out that aside from the behaviour on this talk page, I had received harrassing, and trolling messages on my talk page and that my talk page had also been vandalized; pointed out that while Storm Rider quotes wikipedia policy, he refuses to follow it himself; I said that the article needs more non-Mormon editors, as this inequality was why the article was biased, and that I would bring in others to acheive this end (which I attempted to do by listing the article as a request for comment)

Alienus asks for suggestions on how to balance the article

I replied that the only way I saw to acheive this was to regulate the amount of people on each "side" of issue, by ensuring that there were no more Mormon editors than non-Mormon editors; also, that Mormons needed to be stopped from trying to own the article, and needed to have their attacking behaviour addressed

Cookiecaper says that he didn't violate any policy by reprimanding me and ignoring Storm Rider's behaviour (which is technically correct, but not fundamentally correct - he didn't violate policy, but he did selectively ignore it); said that my "requests suck"; he continues on to misrepresent my position to suit his argument

FyzixFighter describes some more of his edits and asks if there are any further concerns about the article

I said that "Trodel needs to stop changing my edit specifically because it's mine" and addressed his faulty reasoning for changing polygamy back to polgyny (he says that polygamy can mean something other than multiple marriages), and also questioned why I was being characterized as "unknowledgable" when Trodel is making comments like "polygamy doesn't necessarily mean marriage". Also commented that based on the behaviour so far, that this specific reversion of every edit I make was a personal attack; mentioned censorship

Cookiecaper says that since my edit summary said that I expected changes to my edits discussed on the talk page, just like I was expected to discuss changes I wanted to make, that I am trying to own the article. Then he claims that "Trodel is knowledgeable". Then he says that polyandry was not practiced (which is not true) as a defense of changing polygamy to polygyny

I pointed out that I was not trying to own the article, I was simply trying to be treated the same as other editors, and that Trodel was changing my edits specifically because I was the one who made them. Questioned why, if Trodel is so knowledgable, he would say something like "polygamy can mean non-marriage relationships".

Cookiecaper avoided the question regarding Trodels knowledgeability, but asserted that Trodel is indeed knowledgeable anyway. he admitted that he did not even bother finding out what the issue was before siding with Trodel. Then said that although they shouldn't revert edits specifically because they are mine, he isn't convinced that this is the case (although he already admitted that he sides with Trodel by default without actually knowing what is involved in an issue first), and stated that he desn't care anyway. he then claims again that polyandry was not practiced by Mormons in Smith's time (which is false), and this is his "reason" for supporting Trodel's edit

That is the first section of the argument, it is clear that Visorstuff conveniently left out all the stuff from his summary that does not reflect well on Storm Rider et. al. I am going to stop here, as the rest of the arguments go very much the same way and this is already long. I think Visorstuff needs to rethink his approach to this, by paying more mind to not allowing himself to be influenced by his biases. bcatt 02:05, 19 March 2006 (UTC)

bcatt, did you forget to summarize this part of the dispute history, from your post of February 24th?

"When I engaged in discussing the testimony of the three, I did not interpret, I used their exact words with all the fluff removed (everything that did not speak of who showed them the plates and how)...funny though, that you should accuse me of that when the book of mormon is JS's interpretation of the bible."

If you did, I missed it. But I suspect that it was missed because it casts a bad light on you. You can go and read it yourself, but "I did not interpret, I used [your] exact words." You can learn more by reading one page, the title page. If you don't care to learn enough about what the Book of Mormon is, it does not speak well of your efforts to learn anything else about subjects related to this book, such as Joseph Smith, Jr. Val42 07:44, 19 March 2006 (UTC)

Actually, if you read the note at the end, I said that I only summarized the first section, that was not in the first section. And if you actually read through the summary, you will see that I do not leave out the negative things that I said, I am quite up front about them. In fact, the BoM borrows much from the Bible. Kindly refrain from falsely characterizing my actions and read more carefully from now on, it helps prevent the derailing of discussion. bcatt 08:35, 19 March 2006 (UTC)

Bcatt, thanks for filling in the holes. I saw most of the things that I left out that was on the talk pages as sub-topics of the major ones above. I'm not excusing Storm Rider's or your behavior (as both are heated), but was merely giving what I saw as the issues. Clearly, you felt other things were issues that I didn't see as issues, but bringing them to this summary is helpful. I also think my summary pointed to fault on both sides.

One thing espcially of help that you included above was the interactions you had with editors away from this talk page. It helps bring context otherwise missed. Thanks again. This will help improve the article. Keep up the good work. -User:Visorstuff 22:20, 20 March 2006 (UTC)

Improved

I know things have been tense on here lately, but I want to echo the sentiment of Trevdna when he mentions that the article has been vastly improved over recent weeks. I think a lot of this is due to bcatt's involvement. Thank you bcatt. : ) I think we all just need to relax, cool the inflammatory language, respect one another and recognize that we all have a common goal for the article. If we can do that, we'd all be able to get along quite well, I think. So let's be nice, everyone. Please please let's be nice to each other now. It's not nice to be mean. cooki e caper (talk / contribs) 14:53, 19 March 2006 (UTC)

I'm not so sure I completely agree that the article has improved (readability due to the edit wars has left choppy sentences, etc.) but we are on our way. Keep up the good work. As other admins have now said that I have not abused any admin powers, I will continue to help guide the discussion, if Bcatt is okay with my offer? (my help will be in conjuntion with other admins that I've asked to help) - and I will try to keep out of the editing/suggesting realm. My goal is to help you all find a solution, not suggest or be a part of the solution. After it is done, I'll hop in and double check historical facts. -Visorstuff 22:24, 20 March 2006 (UTC)

I'm not okay with it so long as you continue to turn a blind eye to Storm Rider's behaviour. Also, it sure sounds like you are describing acting in the capacity of an admin rather than an editor; and this "guiding" role is exactly the same role you were acting in at the genesis of my issue with you; yet, the argument has been that you did not abuse your admin powers because you were supposedly acting in the capacity of an editor, not as that of an administrator...which contradicts the first two points. Personally, I'm not comfortable having discussion guided by someone who is unwilling to be responsible for their mistakes, nor by someone who is either unwilling or incapable of keeping their biases in check. bcatt 06:09, 21 March 2006 (UTC)

I can understand your lack of comfort with my help - that's fine. I really hope that I'm willing to keep my biases in check, but if not, my apologies. I do try.

You may want to read Wikipedia:Admin to properly understand what an Administrator's duties and powers are. I've been an admin twice as long than you've edited on Wikipedia, and have not abused any of my admin powers, as has been stated by other admins in this discussion and on my talk page, and elsewhere. I take that role very seriously, as hopefully you can see. Suggestions of my abuse in that area are unfounded, but I can see how you could think that, not completely understanding the role of an Sysop.

My offered role above would be to act as a non-official mediator (see Wikipedia:Mediation) in this dispute. I will not deal with either of your behaviors, except to remind you both that personal attacks are not appropriate, but rather would like to help guide the discussion on improving the article, help you and storm rider and the others figure out the best edits, rather than editing myself. Since I've published on this topic, I could always edit the article, but I don't think that wouldn't help at this point, as my edits would be a complete re-write of this page. I'd really rather not have to deal with behavioral issues, as I believe we are adults here. I'd like to work with two other admins - User:Wesley and User:Alai - both of other religions - to help guide discussion only, as I cannot monitor every day, and the hope was that between the three of us, we could help guide discussion for improving the article. (sorry for the run-on sentence).

I apologize that I could not be on Wikipedia 24/7 to help, but I generally do not edit on Sunday/Early Monday (and thus couldn't help mediate during those times) when you [9] and Storm Rider [10] both edit the most on this page. In addition, due to the birth of a son, I took a wikiholiday during some of the dispute, and was MIA when you both needed the role I wanted to do. I do feel that my lack of guiding during this time added to the problem. My apologies. At this point, I'd really like to get the disputes over with so we can clean up the spelling/sentence structure/grammar and fact-check sources in the article.

I do need clarification from you, Bcatt. Are your comments above a refusal to work with my offered help? That's okay, I can respect that. No hard feelings on my part for this. Please clarify.

With that said, I if you don't want to accept my offered help, I think that only other solution is official Wikipedia:Mediation and then Wikipedia:Arbitration. I'd like to clarify from you, if the comments above show a "no" vote to added help via mediation? If so, do the other editors agree that arbitration is needed? Typically arbitration is not a pretty process where no-one likes the end result, from my experience. Please clarify. -Visorstuff 16:11, 21 March 2006 (UTC)

bcatt, I fail to understand how inaction (turning a blind eye to Storm Rider's behaviour) can be construed as an abuse of admin power. Anyone has the right to do nothing. If you really think an admin needs to do something about someone else's behaviour, don't just depend on one admin to handle it, post a notice on WP:AN (or one of the related pages it recommends, depending on the specific complaint), where admins with time to deal with such things watch for notices and respond. Personally, although I'm an admin, I rarely exercise any actual admin powers, except maybe using the Rollback button on actual vandals, and that's just a convenient shortcut for what anyone can do. I'm going to try to participate here mainly as an editor. Wesley 17:45, 21 March 2006 (UTC)

I, too, would like to help as an old editor and admin, but simply cannot be as involve as I would need to be. I have pulled way back on my Wikipedia efforts. I do, however, urge you both to be patient, be nice, and take things slowly. bcatt, your presence here will be for good if you can remember these admonitions. Tom Haws 18:25, 21 March 2006 (UTC)

From what I've read here, bcatt is an eloquent writer, with lots of time to dedicate to Wikipedia. She is also outspokenly anti-mormon, and her writings show this. I think she should recognize her own bias, and leave the Mormon prophet's article to others that don't care as much. (This goes for LDS Wikipedians as well; lay off, and let more neutral writers stabilize the article.) Wadsworth 20:13, 21 March 2006 (UTC)

I agree with Bcatt's comments. An admin, one should be interested in upholding all Wiki Policy. Splitting hairs on whether Visorstuff violated a small subset reserved for admins seems to miss the point entirely. Selective application of policy by an admin seems just as problematic. Also, being that there is some acknowledgement of StormRider's personal attacks, I don't think it is appropriate for an admin to echo and continue such attacks as occurred in my case. --FreedominThought 22:27, 21 March 2006 (UTC)

FreedominThought, you are missing the point. Here is a history of my statements about/to you:

"Please no threats. Wikepedia is not the place for that, nor is your authority greater than other editors."
"Freedom in thought then joined the discussion, and was accused of being a sock puppet, and made initial threats to Storm Rider "Note that you may be blocked for disruption""
"Freedom in thought and its Mormonlicious both appear to be sock puppets - of whom, and why, doesn't matter as it is to no-ones benefit or harm in this case."

Foregive me, but can you explain which of these was an attack? The first is a reminder of wikietiquette, the second was a summary and the third is my opinion that you were a sock puppet - and that it really doesn't matter if you are - as it does not affect things one way or the other, so tracking down if you are or not is irrelevant. Bottom line - I don't care if you are and its not worth my time to find out.

If you want to bring my actions before the Arbcom or others, by all means do (please be kind enough to notify me). I truly believe that they will see my efforts in this discussion as trying to help the situation, not attack anyone. I've tried to help, but I, like others, cannot be here to defend both sides at every second. I have a good record and have worked hard to build a good reputation on Wikipedia, and I believe they will clear me of any wrongdoing. I'm truly sorry that you feel this way. I can't understand why you do. But I'm fine with a formal request for a review of my conduct. We've got three admins who have said I've done nothing wrong, aside from not being here enough. Let's do it.

Now, back to the original question, is my proposed solution then rejected by you and Bcatt? If so, let's get the formal mediation process going. I'm tired of the back and forths on both sides and want to get this fixed. This article is well-read and readers don't deserve the degredation of the article that has occurred in regard to grammar, sentence structure, etc. -Visorstuff 22:48, 21 March 2006 (UTC)

You are missing the point, no, spinning it. All of them were attacks, how about that? I didn't threaten anyone, you chose to IGNORE the repeated personal attacks on me by those favorable to your beliefs and then proceed to warn me for simply giving the policy prescribed warning when one is personally attacked! Then you repeat the false characterization, making it sound again like I was making threats while repeating the personal attack on my character, not once, but twice, trying to legitimize it. That kind of spin is not worthy of an admin and apparently there is no acknowledgement on your part as the spin continues. --FreedominThought 00:54, 22 March 2006 (UTC)

Let's bear in mind that this is an article talk page. It's here to discuss the content of the article, in a civil manner, and with a presumption of good faith on the parts of other editors. FreedominThought (and btw, can you use a properly linked signature?), if you have on-going issues with Visorstuff, use the dispute resolution process to resolve them. This is not the place, especially if it's going preclude discussion of the article. Alai 02:45, 22 March 2006 (UTC)

Hey I totally agree. However I have been on the receiving end of public uncivil behavior since my first post here. I don't think making false accusations and calling me a fraud and dishonest qualifies as treating me with a presumption of good faith, that is bullying. This behavior has not only been extended to me but to others as well. I have the responsibility as a member of the community to advocate for others who are being mistreated. These comments have not been retracted, instead all I have seen is outrage at my gall for not rolling over or going away. Discussion of this article is totally dependent on preserving a welcoming, neutral environment which has not existed here. It is not Visor, but a concerted effort to maintain an exclusionary environment here that I have a problem with.

As far as my sig, I am simply using the sig button when I edit. Isn't it supposed to put that link in automatically? I haven't done anything to stop it. Any pointers would be greatly appreciated. --FreedominThought 04:06, 22 March 2006 (UTC)

You agree this isn't the place to further an interpersonal dispute, but then go on to discuss nothing but the interpersonal dispute. FWIW, I don't think it's reasonable to characterise any of those statements Visorstuff quotes himself as making as "attacks"; OTOH, I can see why you might feel offended at the "sockpuppet" speculation. But these are not issues for this page, even in the first instance, and most especially not after this number of iterations. If you can't settle these issues directly with the editors concerned (i.e., on their talk pages), follow the steps in dispute resolution. Repeatedly protesting here is disruptive to discussion of the issues in the article, and if by your own logic, the "resident" editors here are seriously biased, is going to be counterproductive. Alai 04:55, 22 March 2006 (UTC)

Since my initial issue (and the core of all my issues at this article) was/is the massive effort made by Storm Rider to derail all my attempts at discussing the article (or all attempts made by anyone who agrees with any point I make), I certainly have no issue with, and moreover prefer, to just get on with discussing and editing this article. I have no objection to mediation itself, however, I do not like the idea of the discussion being "mediated" by someone who says I "have a history of controversy and antagonism towards personal beliefs" - a faulty and defamatory characterization based on the simple fact that I am an honest individual who doesn't feel the need to hide my personal biases. Show me one person who does not have biases, and I will show you a bald-faced liar. The only thing that is important in regard to my personal beliefs and opinions is that I do not go around telling people that "what I believe is true" and therefore "this article should reflect my beliefs". The tone I get from Visorstuff's message is that if I don't agree to him, and those he chooses, as mediators, he is going to try to achieve ends through arbitration that I "won't like". It reads as a veiled threat to me - and an unwarranted one at that. please don't point out to me that this is the discussion page for the article, I realize that...this discussion has to do with the article, namely, how to get on with regular discussion devoid of the intentional disruption previously used to prevent NPOVing this article. For those who took Storm Rider's (and others who attempted to falsely characterize me) representation of my "stand" on beliefs at face value, and based on that regard me as influenced by my personal biases, allow me to put my comments from the astrology (a belief I personally support) talk page into the proper context (ie: without "rewriting history"):

"the introduction...should describe briefly what the subject is, and, if applicable (which it is in this article) briefly mention if there are any detractors, who they are, and, if it can be kept brief, a general reason...briefly describe what the subject is, and then, if it is a subject that involves different views, put a brief introduction to any major detractors (and their reasons if it can be kept brief)...In the interest of NPOV, the opposition does need to be properly represented...There is an NPOV policy that all views on a subject must be represented.

and:

I would like nothing more than to just discuss astrology in this article...my own experience shows that astrology is indeed quite valid...but, I can't very well insist on NPOV over at Joseph Smith, but turn a blind eye to it here.

Oh my goodness, I have some very awful double standards happening here, don't I? Why is it that Visorstuff has been the one to choose who should mediate this discussion? bcatt 08:20, 22 March 2006 (UTC)

Yes, this talk page is about improving the article, but the editors here are at a stalemate. We are not getting anywhere. We need outside help.

Bcatt, you make a suggestion on what to do, if you don't like my suggestions. As an experienced editor, I was offering help. We need a third party, we all recognize that. I've made suggestions. I've invited in other admins who have been around and respected since this project first began, as they are trusted admins by nearly everyone on Wikipedia. Now, according to WP:DR there are two options left, IMO. 1- Mediation (which I've suggested and you don't agree with/won't agree to) or 2 - Arbitration.

You wrote: "The tone I get from Visorstuff's message is that if I don't agree to him, and those he chooses, as mediators, he is going to try to achieve ends through arbitration that I "won't like"."

I'm sorry you feel that way, that was not my point. What I mean is I don't think anyone likes the outcome of arbitration. Neither side wins, but I'm open to your suggestion which still needs to be given. If you see another solution, please suggest it? -Visorstuff 14:59, 22 March 2006 (UTC)

Bcatt, please let's not go down the "defamation" line of argument again. You may well have reason to be annoyed, but as I said to FiT, use of that sort of terminology just escalates matters. Visor, I disagree with your reasoning that it's mediation, arbitration, or bust. There's firstly, the option of just getting on with discussing the article; I gather that the original disagreement was about whether to include various criticisms of JS. Can we discuss these individually, with specific reference to whether they're i) notable, ii) verifiable, and iii) particular and appropriate to this article? Secondly, there's the option of getting further outside input: an article content RFC might be useful, or simply approaching other editors who you think will be neutral on this issue, or have a "balancing" POV. Thirdly, note that if you do seek formal mediation, the procedure is to post a request on the MC page, and see if someone "takes" the case: neither party "picks" a mediator. BC, if you're concerned about the people V. contacted, such as myself, let me state that I don't consider myself to be "mediating", just throwing in my two eurocents as requested, as anyone else is perfectly entitled to (as an editor; much as nerves have obviously because frayed here, I nevertheless don't see anything that requires immediate admin action as such: there's no out-of-control edit war, and the civility level isn't entirely out of control). (And it must be said, that if he were looking for someone guaranteed to agree with him, and uphold his view no matter what, I doubt it'd have been me.) Alai 16:56, 22 March 2006 (UTC)

Here is my issue with you, Visorstuff, in a nutshell: you take my words

"I have no objection to mediation itself"

and change that statement into something that suits you:

"Mediation (which...you don't agree with/won't agree to)"

This is not the first time you've twisted what I say to suit you. And, yes, you say nobody likes the outcome of arbitration, but your method of "suggesting" it centres around telling me that I should be doing things your way otherwise you will initiate arbitration...which changes the tone from something general to something specific to me...and, clearly, you have no compunction with misrepresenting things, which would undoubtedly lead to unfair and undesireable results. What do I suggest? You need to remove yourself from this issue, you really aren't helping.

Alai, what terminology do you suggest? I have given clear examples of how Visorstuff has represented me as something which I can prove I am not...yet, you are telling me that I should not describe this for what it is. I do however second your sentiment that there are many alternatives to arbitration, or at least steps that can be taken before using that as a lst resort. Let's get on with discussing the changes needed in the article. bcatt 18:44, 22 March 2006 (UTC)

That assumes that it really is defamation, a characterisation which is only pertinent if you're contemplating some sort of legal redress, which firstly, I think is unlikely to be possible for a number of reasons, not least the problematic nature of suing for libel of an essentially anonymous Wikipedia user id, and secondly, gets us into the realm of legal threats again. Assuming that's not in fact the case, a more accuate characterisation would be "insulting", though that's not necessarily a huge step forward. What I suggest is as little terminology being used to describe past disputes in such a way as to suggest an on-going interest in continuing them. But more to the point, I suggest we pursue your latter suggestion, and ask all concerned to enumerate their "issues" with the article as it currently stands, and then discuss them one by one. The article itself seems not to be undergoing heavy editing at present, but it's not clear to me if that's indicative of broad consensus, or of simmering discontentment. Alai 19:31, 22 March 2006 (UTC)

I really think everyone inlved in this lengthy disscussion should just "forgive and forget".205.121.111.60

Seconded. Alai 19:31, 22 March 2006 (UTC)

My apologies Bcatt - I interpreted your statement: "Personally, I'm not comfortable having discussion guided by someone who is unwilling to be responsible for their mistakes, nor by someone who is either unwilling or incapable of keeping their biases in check" to mean you didn't agree with mediation. Sorry for any confusion. My intent was not to twist your words - I do hope you believe me and realize my intent is to help, not to make you feel attacked.

I'm curious to know why you don't think I should edit, and you still should? I'll gladly recuse myself from this page if you will as well. No hard feelings, no questions asked.

In the mean time, I'm going to move on from the interaction about this (I'm still trying to decide whether or not to RFC my own admin conduct to be cleared of misuse of admin charges, but that's another topic).

For now, and in the spirit of moving on, I will pull out my sources and start editing the article itself, something I have not done up to this point in the dispute. Bcatt, I cannot in good concience "remove [myself] from this issue," as I am published as an academecian on this topic. My knowledge and expertise in this area is respected by my peers - both Mormon and not. I'd like to move the page past the basic items others are seemng to have an issue grasping. All - if you have issues with my edits, please let me know - they will be correct and documented - but I'll likely cut out superfluous stuff that is unsourced both pro and con. I'll source everything I do and add a {{fact}} in other places that need it. My credentials is what has led me not to edit this particular page, as I don't always see things in exactly the same light as other Mormon editors.

I'm moving on. Bcatt, I hope you don't have hard feelings. No offense from me has been meant. -Visorstuff 19:54, 22 March 2006 (UTC)

Yes good. I think things are starting to look up in this dispute. Perhaps mediation will not be necessary. I agree with the users above who suggest forgiving and forgetting. I'm sorry for the inflammatory words I've used and I regret them, truly. bcatt, I hope you'll forgive me for using the word "suck" in unnice places : ( . I don't mean to do so again. Let's all be nice to each other and edit in good faith from now on. cooki e caper (talk / contribs) 10:28, 23 March 2006 (UTC)

Quotation Marks

It seems like there is a problem with quotations on this page. Is it acceptable to change quotes to make them more palatable to editors? That seems dishonest to me when using quotation marks. Either quit using quotes and references in the article or only use opinions of editors...of course then I would ask what the purpose of this site is if it turns into opinion pieces. 71.1.12.169

Please refer to this user's talk page for a resolution of this issue, as it deals with a misunderstanding of quoting convention rather than an actual POV issue. Tijuana Brass 17:31, 22 March 2006 (UTC)

What we are talking about is change the words "our religion" to "Mormonism". It is a quote from Joseph Smith. The article is about his history and relationship in founding the Mormon religion. Do you really think there is a problem with readers mistaking what "our religion" means? What is the objective of the change of this quote? Dor you really think there is confusion on behalf of readers or are we trying to be condescending? 71.1.12.169

I don't think anybody is seeing this as condenscending other than yourself. Following the edit history, the change has been supported by someone who tends to take — if you can forgive the over-generalization — an critical stance (bcatt, the original editor), a sympathetic stance (myself), and a neutral party (Swatjester). None of us, along with other editors who have been very exacting on the wording of the article (see above for ample evidence of that), seem to find any problem with the clarification. Keep in mind that while a quote may seem painfully clear to you, it may not be to every reader — as an outsider born outside of Mormon culture, the religion can be complicated and confusing to understand. The concept is not to make the quotation "more palatable to editors," but to make it clearer to readers without changing the original meaning. Tijuana Brass 19:36, 22 March 2006 (UTC)

As a Southern Baptist I don't find anything difficult to understand about the quote. I am very committed to factual reviews of all religions. This does not change the meaning, but changing a quote seems wrong. Maybe I am not as educated as you and the others, but I have never seen that done anywhere. Is it acceptable to change quotes whenever one chooses? It would seem easier to just remove the quote marks and then change the sentence however you wish to suit your needs. 71.1.12.169

Personally, I also don't see the pressing need for the paraphrase in this instance, and agree that it's probably clear from context. But I see no harm in it, either: it's not "changing" the quote (and please, the "to suit your needs" part seems to imply some bad faith intent), it's a noted paraphrase, for which as TB says, square brackets are a well-known convention (and indeed, the standard one). See for example, here. Alai 20:09, 22 March 2006 (UTC)

It's quite common — take a look through nearly any resource that quotes others (for example, an academic textbook), and you'll see it used extensively... but again, it's not at the author's whim, but when useful for clarification. To give an example, were I to write a biography about your experience on Wikipedia and choose to quote your comment above, I may quote you as, "I don't find anything difficult to understand about the quote [concerning Joseph Smith, Jr.]", were it necessary for clarification. The original meaning is not changed, and the inclusion of brackets indicates that the words were actually a paraphrase included by the editor.

One last example... this one is from an article picked at random from the LDS website. Open it up, and do a search for the phrase "I went home and threw out my cigarettes." Take a look at the next sentence. Notice how, even though it is a quote by the author, the phrase "who was not a member" appears in brackets. This is because, while not actually said by the author, the editor felt the phrase was a necessary clarification.

Hope that helps to clear things up for you. Tijuana Brass 20:11, 22 March 2006 (UTC)

Indeed. Other examples where you might see this kind of paraphrasing is if someone using a quote where "he", "she", "they", or some similar potentially ambiguous or confusing reference, is used. In these cases, and in cases like the example given above by Tijuana Brass, it is perfectly acceptable, and even preferred, to use a paraphrase to clarify who or what is being referred to. Thus the quote "He gave a presentation to describe recent progress" might be changed to "[Mr. Doe] gave a presentation [on technology] to describe recent progress". bcatt 21:45, 22 March 2006 (UTC)

Recent edits

Visorstuff, could you explain how your edits improved the article? Here are the problems I see with it:

"Religious branch of Christianity" is redundant
That Mormonism is even a branch of Christianity is one of the primary areas of dispute; that traditional Christianity does not accept Mormonism as a Christian religion is a very good reason why this assertion is POV; moreover, this debate is referenced later in the intro, so this addition lends even more redundancy and unnecessary wordiness
"Faction" served very well as an accurate description of the "banding" phenomenon that is a hallmark of Mormonism, perhaps an article can be created that relates specifically to factions in religion, but in the meantime, political faction describes what is meant quite well
The intro now refers to Smith's death in two seperate instances, again redundant, unnecessarily wordy, and introducing topics which are more appropriate to be saved for the body of the article
"Most" is more accurate than "many" when describing Smith's opposition, particularly in regard to Christian clergy
"At the time" is inaccurate, as it implies that Christianity now accepts Smith's teachings, which is not the case
"Tenure" does not seem applicable at all
The sentence mentioning mayorship and militias is generally structured badly

What I have done:

Added in his nationality and restructured the opening sentence to accomodate this
This restructuring also made the debate between using "religious faction" or "religious branch of Christianity" moot (these points can be discussed in more appropriate spots)
Condensed that it is a restoratioist teaching into this sentence as well, this should assist in shortening the intro (note: I think that the word "belief" could possibly be replaced with a better word...but perhaps it works)
With the restorationism part moved, the sentence previously containing it is unnecessary...the statistics that follow convey this point just fine
"(often called the "Mormon" Church)" isn't needed, as this is already said in the leading sentence
Removed the factoid addition about being the only presidential candidate killed during a campaign...trivia belongs elsewhere than in the introduction, especially in an article with size warnings. All kinds of info on opposing views is rejected for this article because "details belong in the sub-articles"...if this is occuring only for opposing views, it is called information suppression, so I am applying it to supportive views, trivia, and anything else which is not a major point.
I cannot imagine why the part that Smith's followers "revere him as a latter-day prophet" was removed. It is a valid comment that works toward describing the supportive viewpoint, which is important when describing the opposing viewpoint(s)...I have reinserted this part.
It is misleading to say that Smith's teachings were only opposed by his contemporaries (same issue applies to saying "at the time"), and he was/is also opposed by followers of Christianity, not just the clergy...I have reworded this sentence to accurately sum up the information found in the Mormonism and Christianity article
As I have been told repeatedly that I must attribute anything I add (not that I wouldn't anyway, without being told), and since this is the method outlined in the policies and guidelines I have attributed the opposition of his "too much political power for a religious leader" to those who I have found to be identified with this view. However, I will leave off the names, as I recall this being mentioned by someone as unnecessary detail (though, I consider these details to be rather important to context myself).
Also removed the references to mayorship and militias, as these details would be better explained in an article dedicated to the subject (a suggestion which seemed to be accepted when I first made it). Any suggestions for an article name? I've put this part within a comment in the article, pending a decision on the name.
Added back in the reverse view of those who considered Smith as too religiously involved for politics, these two views, though related, are quite different and held by different groups
Information relating to slavery would probably be most appropriately described in detail in the pending article dedicated to his political role, as the introduction should only cover the major opinions (in the interest of correcting the size problem)
I have used the term polygamy because the controversy related nearly exclusively to the "for time" marriages; and because these marriages resulted in both polygyny and polyandry

What still needs work:

The transition between the opinion of Smith's followers and that of Christians...as it stands, it is a sudden and surprising transition, but I was trying to avoid using words such as "however" or "although", as these can be construed as "weasel words"...anyone have any other suggestions for how to deal with this?
Flow can probably be improved in other ways as well

My basic approach here was to write the introduction in answer to the questions "what is Smith best known for? If you mentioned his name to the average person, what points would this be most likely to conjur up, or what points would be conjured most commonly?" The answer is: founder/leader of Mormonism, controversial person, controversy related to differences from mainstream Christianity, and polygamy. The average person today would probably not be likely to think of Smith in terms of his political position...however, I do think this is an important point that should be touched on anyway as part of the reason for his notability. This inner dialogue is the primary basis for the flavour of my edit (what was included and what wasn't).

References:

bcatt 09:49, 23 March 2006 (UTC)

I think this is a pretty good edit, actually. Good work. : ) I have a bit of a concern with this paragraph, though:

Smith was eventually seen by many ex-Mormons as having too much political and military power for a religious leader. Conversely, most of the non-Mormon public and many politicians considered Smith as having too much influence as a religious leader to fairly represent the people as a government official.

I think more than just ex-Mormons saw Smith as having too much political or military power for a religious leader, and the following sentence about non-Mormons is redundant and does not illustrate an objectively converse point, as it claims to. Perhaps we can consolidate these two statements? I've left polygamy alone for now, someone else can change it if they want. It's really not that big of a deal. cooki e caper (talk / contribs) 10:21, 23 March 2006 (UTC)

I can see how this part might present as confusing, but there is a difference and I will try to explain it. In the opinion of ex-Mormons, they had looked up to Smith as a religious leader and saw his political power as interfering with his religious role; whereas the opposite opinion was from those who were not Mormon, who were concerned about the affect Smith would have in government because of his control over a voting bloc. To use a bad analogy, it would be like if one person doesn't like the colour red because, when made darker, it becomes burgundy; while another person doesn't like the colour red because, when made lighter, it becomes pink...these two people are opposed to the same thing, on similar grounds, but for opposite reasons. By the way, I appreciate your recent efforts at making peace and wanted to acknowledge that. bcatt 11:04, 23 March 2006 (UTC)

Most of my beginning edits are for readability only. I changed things in favor of Mormonism not being a Christian denomination as discussed here - this is why I used "Branch of Christianity" as opposed to Chsitian denomination. Would you like me to revert to what it was previously? I did not think that a "political faction?" was proper as teh church has had a strong position of staying neutral politically. Yes they take political stands, but as to the parties. The bottom line is that it is a religious organization that claims it is christian. Can we at least add that in? (Interestingly that Some baptist groups deem that Penecostals are not christian, nor that Catholics are christian, however, those articles go from the point of view of the adherent - in the past, this has been the MO for religious articles).

You wrote, "*"Most" is more accurate than "many" when describing Smith's opposition, particularly in regard to Christian clergy" Statistically this is incorrect. When looking at how many clergy who met smith converted (studies have been done, and I'll source), Smith was very successful in converting clergy he met. A good example are ministers of other groups including John Taylor, Sidney Rigdon, Parley P. Pratt, Wilford Woodruff. When Smith came to Kirtland Ohio for example nearly 2000 of its just over 3000 residents converted to Mormonism. The issue is those who didn't get to know the church didn't understand it and of course had issues with it.

The point about his death mentioned twice being redundant is a good suggestion.

In my understanding someone cannot be opposed posthumously. Their teachings can, but they cannot. I cannot be opposed to historical figures such as Ramses II, Balaam, Pope Gregory IX, Cain or others. I can be opposed to what they stand for.

Tenure is a word meaning that he would not likely be removed from office. From Dictionary.com:

Tenure is 1. The act, fact, or condition of holding something in one's possession, as real estate or an office; occupation. 2. A period during which something is held. 3. The status of holding one's position on a permanent basis without periodic contract renewals: a teacher granted tenure on a faculty.

My point is that Smith held a position and that removing him from office would have been nearly impossible, which I'm sure you'd agree with as the town was nearly 75 percent LDS. Tenure is used to descibe Bloomberg's mayoral position in New York as well (top three google hits - here: [11] [12] [13]

You wrote: ""what is Smith best known for? If you mentioned his name to the average person, what points would this be most likely to conjur up, or what points would be conjured most commonly?"

If you pull up a high school text book on the matter (or at least one in arizona, Smith's candidacy for president comes up. Hense, just because you don't know him best for this, doesn't mean others do.

In fact, the most important Non-LDS biography on Smith since No man knows my history is written by by professor Remini [14] - it is published in 2003. It cites that Smith's political ambitions and his death as a candidate for president of the US is one of the most important things in understanding Smith. From a current scholarship point of view, his death as a presidential candidate is much more important than what this article, and the others allude to. If you want current scholarship, it needs to stay.

You wrote: "I think more than just ex-Mormons saw Smith as having too much political or military power for a religious leader"

The "I think" shows this is your opinion. It needs documentation. The historical facts show that it was the Non-Mormons, combined with former Mormons (Ex-mormon wasn't any a term then, and should not be used, per academic writing styles such as chicago or apa) and current political leaders who saw his rise to power as a threat (such as illinios state legistlature members higbee and missouri leaders, who are numerous to document). For example, dunklin not taking smith back to Nauvoo when he was killed was a political manuever asked for by the local state representative accusing dunklin of siding with smith and using his popularity to further his political ambitions and so forth. Another is stephen douglas' views on Smith's popularity. This is the leading consensus among historians as opposed to common belief. If you can document this, great. If not, let's go back to documented facts by historians.

Finally, I am curious as to why you removed sources? I'm trying to add in documentation - if you'd read my sources you'd understand as to why the additions are being made. Pls explain. The first paragraph was only to improve readability and sourcing unsourced material - which is now unsourced again. Let's use sources folks. -Visorstuff 16:22, 23 March 2006 (UTC)

It didn't seem very readable to me, that is a big reasonwhy I changed it. To the average reader, "branch of Christianity" reads the same as "Christian denomination". Are you threatening to revert any edits I make? What it was previous to my edit was a selective use of information that was not exactly cohesive and certainly not balanced, and it contained a lot of information not appropriate for an intro. From the faction article:

"...an informal grouping of individuals...with some kind of political purpose. It may also be referred to as a power bloc, or a voting bloc. The individuals within a faction are united in one common goal or set of common goals for the broader organisation. They band together as a way of achieving these goals and advancing their own position...political factions are not limited to political parties; they can and frequently do form within any group that has some sort of political aim or purpose."

And from politics:

"...a process by which collective decisions are made within groups...politics is observed in all human group interactions, including...religious institutions. Politics is also observed, to varrying degrees, in certain Mammal species. (this last is included to demonstrate that politics does not necessarily apply to government politics).

Additionally, in it's beginnings, mormonism was specifically a governmental faction as well, as they were all dictated to as to how they were to vote. Besides, it no longer says faction now, so I don't see why you are bringing this up. That Mormonism considers itself a Christian religion is discussed in the referenced article, but if you are insitant on adding it in, it should go in as an introduction or end to the sentence that refernecs the "Mormonism and Christianity" article...and in that case, it will be almost unavoidable to use "however" or "although". I would also guess that many other religious articles have many of the same problems as this article. Wikipedia policies and guidelines say that all articles need to be written from a neutral point of view, not the point of view of the subject.

This paragraph already deals with what Smith's followers views were, converts are Smith's followers. The next point discusses why non-converts of the Christian religion disagree with Mormonism. And your opinion that those who didn't convert only didn't because "they did not get to know the church" is not applicable to the article...that same thing could be said about any teaching on any subject...and that does not make the assertion true.

We're getting into semantics here. And moot ones at that...the rticle currently says that it is his doctrine that was/is opposed...except for the issues that had to do with then only, which are written in the past tense...I don't see why you are arguing about this.

"Tenure" was linked to the article here on wikipedia, which did not describe it that way, and instead provided information that would have confused the reader. In any case, the paragraph has been dealt with without needing to use the word or a substitute, so again it is a non-issue.

I didn't ask myself "what is most commonly written in American school textbooks", I asked myself "If you mentioned his name to the average person, what would they think of"...and besides, I already pointed out that I thought it important to mention his political power anyway, and mentioned it...the details of it, like all the other points, should be deal with either in the body of the article, or, as is ready to be done with this point, to link to a dedicated article which describes this point in detail (as with "Mormonism and Christianity")

Again, his death is related to his political role and would be best served by having sufficient space dedicated to it in an article which describes in detail this part of his life...I am giving it importance, in an appropriate area that does not compromise the space restrictions of this article...do you want this article to be readable, or do you want a large majority of people to not finish eading it because it is too long and has too much information in one place? That he had a role in politics is mentioned, and I have proposed having a dedicated article linked to straight from the introduction.

Cookiecaper wrote "I think more than just ex-Mormons saw Smith as having too much political or military power for a religious leader". Are you even reading the changes in the article and the commentary describing the changes, or are you simply trying to argue with every edit I make? Actually, the term used today is "exmormon", which is exactly why I used ex-Mormon...practically everybody who speaks english understands ex- to mean "previously". Also, I see a distinction between those who were disappointed because they saw Smith's religious leadership as suffering because of his political ambitions (ex-mormons), and those who saw him as dangerous as a political leader because of his control over a large group of people (non-Mormons). If you really have an issue with it, why not just make it read "previous Mormons"?

Your sources were in reference to his death, which would be great to have in an article dedicated to his political ambitions...I tried to keep the intro to common knowledge (ie: the most major points...which would be the major opinions regarding Smith's role as a religious leader), this improves readability and keeps the information nicely organized. There is currently no information in the intro that is in need of citation, so there is no "unsourced material" there anymore. bcatt 18:33, 23 March 2006 (UTC)

How did you get " Are you threatening to revert any edits I make?" out of my discussion on this talk page. If I was going to revert I would. I was simply trying to help you see why I was doing the edits I did. You obvisouly don't agree. To me, I followed your rules. The editing of the paragraph was a test to see how you'd respond. I felt I even erred on the side of supporting your views. You call some edits semantics, yet to me they carry a strong POV. Joseph Smith and Mormonism are not topics that you are knowlegeable about in any stretch of the imagination, however, I do appreciate your writing expertise - which I thanked you for in my post, but yet you still responded and defended yourself, when there was no need. I'm posting an request for outside help. Expect a notice on your talk page shortly. -Visorstuff 19:09, 23 March 2006 (UTC)

How did I get that you were making a threat? Because you said: "Would you like me to revert to what it was previously?" Your characterization of "my rules" is faulty...I follow the rules set out in wikipedia policy and guidelines...those are not "my rules".

"The editing of the paragraph was a test to see how you'd respond." Isn't that called trolling? And how exactly did I respond? I explained exactly why I had issues with the edits and I explained exactly why I made the edits I did. What an awful thing to do!

You are specifically arguing against a portion of my edit that does exactly what you say it should: you say it should describe that Smith's teachings were opposed, and that's exactly what it says...yet you are going on about how it carries a strong POV. How is the fact that Christians do not regard Mormonism as Christian POV? It is true, and it is attributed. Now, if I had written "Most people don't think that Mormonism is Christian" or "Mormonism isn't Christian" or even "Mormonism isn't Christian because Christians say so", then you would have a point...but I didn't, so you don't.

Well, I'm glad that someone appointed you dictator of who is and is not knowledgeable in Storm Rider's absence...but frankly, based on the faults in your arguments and your attempts to simply oppose everything I say simply on the basis that I say it, I don't give too much weight to what you deem my level of knowledge to be. And please, stop congratulating yourself for things you haven't done, just like you didn't previously "help" me in any way, you likewise did not thank me for my writing ability (or anything else for that matter). bcatt 19:54, 23 March 2006 (UTC)

Joseph Smith, Jr.

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@@ Line 519: / Line 519: @@
 :You are specifically arguing against a portion of my edit that does exactly what you say it should: you say it should describe that Smith's ''teachings'' were opposed, and that's exactly what it says...yet you are going on about how it carries a strong POV. '''How is the fact that Christians do not regard Mormonism as Christian POV? It is true, and it is attributed'''. Now, if I had written "Most people don't think that Mormonism is Christian" or "Mormonism ''isn't'' Christian" or even "Mormonism ''isn't'' Christian because Christians say so", then you would have a point...but I didn't, so you don't.
 :Well, I'm glad that someone appointed you dictator of who is and is not knowledgeable in Storm Rider's absence...but frankly, based on the faults in your arguments and your attempts to simply oppose everything I say simply on the basis that I say it, I don't give too much weight to what you deem my level of knowledge to be. And please, stop congratulating yourself for things you haven't done, just like you didn't previously "help" me in any way, you likewise did not thank me for my writing ability (or anything else for that matter). [[User:Bcatt|bcatt]] 19:54, 23 March 2006 (UTC)
+==Joseph Smith, Jr.==
+{{RFM-Filed|Joseph Smith, Jr.|Joseph Smith, Jr.}}