Talk:Macedonians (ethnic group)/Archive 6

• Previous discussion is available at Archive 1, Archive 2, Archive 3, Archive 4 and Archive 5.
• The renaming poll of June 2005 (now closed) is archived at Talk:Macedonian Slavs/Poll. (See also Archive 2 for many comments arising from this poll.)

[ personal attacks by 84.164.208.145 (talk · contribs) removed by Izehar on 13:20, 27 November 2005 (UTC) - these comments have not been deleted and can be viewed at the appropriate past version of the page ]

Article titles

Wikipedia is not really concerned with what the "true name" of this people is. Some people call them Macedonians, others call them Skopjians. I can't even keep track. All this fussing and fighting isn't getting us anywhere.

Wikipedia is not going to settle this dispute. We are just going to think up a good title for the article about them. They exist, they can be described, they can be talked about behind their backs! Greeks can call them names - or refuse to "let them" have their "proper" name. There's nothing we can do to stop this.

I suggest that we concentrate our mental efforts on two things:

1. describing the characteristics of "people who have Macedonian ethnicity" - which includes their history, customs, language, geographical distribution, etc. For example, how many of them live in the various countries of the world? Or how many "speakers of the 'Macedonian language'" live in various countries (probably around the same numbers, but how would I know?)?
2. describing the naming dispute over what these people have been called, are called, and ought to be called.

I want to help you guys - all of you - but this is the best I can think of right now, okay? Uncle Ed 17:27, 26 October 2005 (UTC)

We can not describe the characteristics of these people when having assimilators here, whose only purpose is to deny the Macedonian nation and promote their history and culture as theirs. Please see the posts of VMORO, so you can see what I am talking about.

His claims would (and are) laughted at by any Macedonian that gets here on Wikipedia, but he still keeps promoting that we are insane people who were brainwashed in just 60 years. How come we lost the Bulgarian feeling in just 60 years, but we didn't loose it during the 500 years of Ottoman occupation (during which time the people who accepted the islam were released from any tax)?

How come that there are Macedonians that live in Greece or Bulgaria and that were never under influence of Tito still regard as Macedonians (as ethnicity, not as regionality)? How come there are Macedonians who left the region and moved to USA, Canada or Australia even before 1940th, but regard themselves as Macedonians (again ethnicity, not regionality)? Did maybe John F. Kennedy make them proclaim as such? Macedonian 03:44, 27 October 2005 (UTC)

Can you explain any of the following?

1. What is "the Macedonian nation"?

At first, I have to say that we have to make difference between citizenship, nationality and nation. As recognized by most relevant factors in the world, the members of the ethnicity (more-less) described in the article Macedonians (ethnic group) are forming the Macedonian nation. Any relevant factor or source in the world reffers to them as Macedonians, except very few others that use another names. Macedonian^(talk)

1. • Who is denying it?

The official politics of Greece and Bulgaria is all in favor of denial of the Macedonian separate ethnicity, culture, language... including the Macedonian minority in those countries, who are constantly victims of sometimes even brutal assimilation during the last 100 years.

The poor assimilative minority rights in Bulgaria and especially in Greece is fact supported by any relevant human rigths organization in the world, even by the European Court for Human rights.

Also, Greece is trying to get exclusive rights over the name "Macedonia", pushing us in a sencless dispute. And, just for reminder, just some 30 years ago the term "Macedonia" was completely and strictly forbiten in Greece. General Metaxas was even sending people to jail because of using it. Also, even the province of "Macedonia" in Greece got that name somewhere in the 1980s.

On the other hand Bulgaria is trying to represent the Macedonian ethnicity as separated from the Bulgarian. It is clear that we have some little origin that we share, but the both ethnicities were existing pararerly. The only difference was that Bulgaria got its independance from the Ottomans before us, so no one stopped them to grow intoa nation. On the other hand, Macedonia stayed in the hands of the Ottomans many years more, therefore the Macedonian nation was formed little latter, somewhere at the end of the 19th and beggining of the 20th sentury. Anyway, this formation was lasting for centuries, probably starting in the medieval ages.

These people clearly divide the Macedonian history, culture, language etc between Greece and Bulgaria. And, it is clearly of their interest the modern Macedonians to disapear. Because, if not, all the sceletons that they have in their closets will start appearing, one by one, until the world sees the truth about us. Macedonian^(talk)

1. Briefly describe the history of "the Macedonian nation".

Sources mention Macedonians as ethnicity (separate from Greeks, Bulgarians or Serbs) even in the 15th century (I posted some links to lists of those sources few days ago). Anyway, the same people that were listed as Macedonians in the 15th century started to be formed as mixture of Slavic tribes and natives since the 6th century. Anyway, their ethnicity was first mentioned in the 15th century, aldough those people were parts and even leaders of some medieval states and religious movements.

I would like to clearly note that any historian would say that tyhe modern nations were formed not sooner than the 15th century or even latter. Anyway, the history is the most sensitive topic, so it can not be described briefly. It is not my intention to give you the "Macedonian" part of the story, because Greek and Bulgarian users will object it. We should all reach a clear point as concensus, but that can not be based on denials and propaganda as the one present at the locked version of the page. Macedonian^(talk)

1. • Who is promoting their history and culture as theirs?

Since the beggining of the 20th century, the majority of the sources around the world. There are many sources that promote anti-Macedonian propaganda, with a simple reason: Macedonia did not get their independance until 1991st, and before that (from 1945th) it was a part of strict regime where any national feeling could be punished as separatism. But, most of the sources agree that the clear distinctions of a Macedonian ethnicity can be made since the beggining of the 20th century.

As I already mentioned, a separate Macedonian ethnicity was mentioned in many older sources (before the 20th century), but this feeling was most often presured by assimilative actions from ourneighboors, who always outnumber us (because of just 2 million Macedonians around the world compared to 25-30 million Bulgarians and Greeks combined) and push their POV. Same thing that happens on Wikipedia. Macedonian^(talk)

Are you talking about contributors to Wikipedia, i.e., people who have edited the WP article or signed comments on this talk page? Or Greeks in general? Or certain Greek or other politicians, university professors, book authors, etc.?

No, not Greeks in general. During the last 15 years since Macedonian independance, many of them understood that all we want from them is to be our good neighboor. The Greek goverment was always representing us as people who want to occupy half of todays Greece. But, having close contacts, the people saw that there is no need to fear from each other.

Anyway, the general position of an average Greek is clearly against us. Greece will never recognize their mistake, because all the lies and assimilation will be easily seen. So, they would use all the sources to deny the modern Macedonians, despite the fact that many of us acnowledge that we do not have direct origin from the Antique Macedonians (same as the Greeks do not have).

The most of the Wiki Users support that politics with a simple reason... that is what they were tought to in their society. You should see the suprise of the Greek businessman who travel to Republic of Macedonia and have regular chanses to meet Macedonians, when they realise that all they know about us is a fake. Macedonian^(talk)

Points that should be in this article - or in a related article:

• Ottoman occupation
• Tax relief for converts to Islam
• Tito's role in the formation and/or break-up of Yugloslavia
• Migration of "Macedonians"
  • Where they came from, what language they spoke, etc.

Also, several more articles has to be included. Macedonian^(talk)

One big point that we may or may not be able to address - after the above are answered:

• What do you, User:Macedonian, mean when you refer to "Macedonian" people?

I am talking about the modern Macedonians, (more-less) described by the page above. A Macedonian ethnicity, not regionality. In the history there are only 2 ethnicities with this name: Antique Macedonians and modern Macedonians. Between them there is at least 10 centuries difference (probably more). So, we clearly can not talk about the same people, aldough it is a fact that the modern Macedonians have at least a little part of origin from those people (like almost all the south Balkan ethnic groups). Macedonian^(talk)

• • Who else (outside of Wikipedia) feels the same as you?

About 2 million people are a part of the modern Macedonian nation. Also, 90% of the world sources identify us with this term, including most of the relevant institutions and encyclopedias. Macedonian^(talk)

• • And how does that relate to (or contrast with) what other people call these same people?

Only Greeks use another name for us. Even the Bulgarians use the name "Macedonians". Also the United Nations and all its members (except Greece and Cyprus). I agree that there should be distinction bewteen the Antique Macedonians and the modern Macedonians, but our particial origin from those people can not be denied. Also, any ethnic group from south Balkan has a right to feel the same. Many nations feel some origin from the Antique Macedonians, including the Greeks, Macedonians, Bulgarians, Albanians and Romanians. It is shame if Wikipedia takes sides on this. The culture, language and beleives of the Antique Macedonians are different from any of the modern ones.

Also, they can not be used as a reason for denying our name. They existed more than 20 centuries ago. Only a uneducated person can think that someone can have direct origin from them on a so multi-cultured area as the Balkan is. Macedonian^(talk)

Remember, Wikipedia cannot "settle" any of these points, but only describe the disputes about them fairly. Uncle Ed 17:03, 31 October 2005 (UTC)

I know. And, that is all I want. Fair game. Macedonian^(talk)

I have a question for you, Uncle Ed. Even if we reach some concensus here, how can I know that when we leave Wikipedia (for various reasons) the article will not simply be changed by any nationalist from any of the sides? I am not planning to leave soon, but what if some nationalistic Macedonian, Greek, Bulgarian, Albanian etc... just appears one day and slowly, little by little changes this page into one that will fit his POV. I am not sure it is worthed to waste so much time, when users that were already banned on some other regional Wikipedia for spreading propaganda can still be a part of this Wikipedia and again, spread propaganda.

All the articles concerning Macedonia are full of anti-Macedonian propaganda. And I am sure that this happens in several other occasions. Outnumbering your opponents is always the most succesful method.

I would like to ask you personaly... have you ever tought that Wikipedia might misinform the people, without knowing it? Who takes responsobility for that? Because many times "no responsibility" is association with anarchy.

I personally know at least of 2 more examples like the ones with the modern Macedonians. And, one of them have no chance to deffend themselves, hence their internet activity which is less than 0.5%. That bothers me a lot, but I can not dedicate any time on those issues. Actually, all my time goes to the "Macedonia" related pages, aldough I have many other interests. But, I simply can not spare more time, because I love my wife and I wouldn't like her to divorce me because of all the time I spent here instead on her.

Spending all this time deffending something that comes natural to any human beeing as basic human right (in the democratic world), something that will be revealed by its own, something that the world can not ignore anymore. Does all this time really worth it? Macedonian^(talk) 02:51, 1 November 2005 (UTC)

Arbitrary page move

I have restored the original nomenclature Macedonian Slavs to the article, as per the official results of the last poll on this talk page. This can only be changed by consensus, and not by arbitrary page moves by individual administrators.--Theathenae 10:13, 27 October 2005 (UTC)

Just a reminder that the last pull was drawn. So, neighter side won. And, anyone who check the results of the poll can see that 90% of the users that voted for the "Macedonian Slavs" option are of Greek origin.

Maybe you tought that by outnumbering us you will win the poll, but fortunately there are many neutral people here.

So, please stop changing the facts in your own convinience. The pull did not support any of the options. Macedonian 03:38, 28 October 2005 (UTC)

Annual Worldwide Press Freedom Index 2005

For all the racist hate speech and allegations of heinous human rights abuses directed against Greece by various contributors to this talk page, the reality is rather ruthless. Reporters sans frontières ranks Greece 18^th in its annual Worldwide Press Freedom Index, alongside Belgium and Germany and above such countries as Canada, Britain, France, Australia and the United States of America.[1]--Theathenae 16:58, 27 October 2005 (UTC)

Are you trying to present the press as minorities? Maybe you respect the press, but you clearly do not respect the minorities in Greece (whether they are Albanian, Macedonian, Turkish, Roma etc.).

The European Court for Human rights just issued a case close against Greece in favor of the party of the Macedonian minority in Greece: [[2]]. This is not the first case that Greece loses and it certainly will not be the last one, having on mind that several other similar cases are still on a trial.

Also, here is a link for you, saying what Amnesty International thinks of Greece: [| Amnesty International about Greece].

Also, there are 100s of links concerning the poor human rights of the minorities that live in Greece. Check google and pick any link you want:[| Google search for human rights of the minorities in Greece].

Is it clearer now? Macedonian 03:55, 28 October 2005 (UTC)

Give it up. Your hatred of Greece is counter-productive and will only cause you pain in the long run.--Theathenae 05:53, 28 October 2005 (UTC)

I do not hate Greece. I hate unjustice.

Actually, I am 1/8 Greek. I am actually hiring a Greek girl here in Skopje and we have wonderful cooperation. I was in Greece just few months ago and I had great time with my potential business partner, a very rich Greek guy. When was the last time you were in Republic of Macedonia? When was the last time you talked face to face with a Macedonian (ethnic group)? Shake his hand, buy him a dinner?

By the way, your last edit is a clear Personal Attack. I should remind you that PAs in Wikipedia are counter-productive and will only cause you pain in the long run. I am not goint to tolerate you, same as the Swedish didn't tolerated you. Macedonian 02:54, 29 October 2005 (UTC)

Revert war

Look everyone, this revert war has to stop; it's ridiculous. Check this diff. All main points of disagreement can be seen here. They are mostly figures and phrasing. I want us all to look for sources regarding the figures and then analyse them here before reverting anything. The name of the articles should be Macedonians (ethnic group) for now. As Britannica and 10 other encyclopaedias use that name, it cannot be viewed as unacceptable, and givan that that name is the one that Wikipedia's naming policy requires to be used, that one should be used UNTIL a good reason is found that this case is an exception to that rule. I should also point out that a) Greeks officially call these people Macedonian Slavs NOT Skopjans. You will not find any official Greek document using the name Skopjans. They all use the name Slavomakedhones (Macedonian Slavs). Skopjans is just an way of refering to them without using the name Macedonia and is only used unofficially. Also, the poll which Theathenae keeps on talking about was a draw, a consensus needs 60% support. Therefore it only serves as a reference and is not binding. Wikipedia's naming policy (which mandates the name Macedonians) as a consensus and should be used until it has been proven that this case is an exception. Everyone, please try to co-operate. REX 10:13, 28 October 2005 (UTC)

Rex is right - about the title of the article, anyway.

I did a little digging, and I've discovered that there is some question about whether the type of group these "Macedonians" are, is a real ethnicity - but that is not the sort of thing which an encyclopedia is supposed to settle.

Article is locked, and I reverted way back to 14 October: not because I like that version, but because it's just a random version before the latest edit war.

We need to describe the naming dispute, not settle it. Get that through your heads! Uncle Ed 01:44, 29 October 2005 (UTC)

Doubting our separate ethnicity is unacceptable. No matter did it formed in 1991st, 1945th, 1918th, 10 or 25 centuries ago. It is important that it is reality now. So, it is even offensive to even talk about it.

I would be glad to join you in the creating a proper form of the article. But, I am not planning to accept any kind of assimilative or denial attempts towards me, my culture, history and language.

If you agree, I will be more than glad to help. Macedonian 03:02, 29 October 2005 (UTC)

Background of the dispute

Can we talk about Tito and Yugoslavia and the desire to create an "identity" for the FYROM?

Can we address the outrage of Greeks at finding the ancient name Makedonia hijacked by "Slavs"?

Can we describe the aspirations of former Yugoslavians to have national homeland with a name of their own choosing?

And there's the ultimately tough question: what right does a group of people have to declare that they are of a certain nationality or ethnicity and to call themselves by a name which shows their chosen identity?

Don't say that Wikipedia should settle these questions. We can only report what the various major sides SAY about these questions.

Your Mediator, Uncle Ed 01:50, 29 October 2005 (UTC)

With all my respect, but I do not think that you realise how deep is this issue. Not just for me, as a Macedonia. For all the region as a whole.

As a mediator, your beggining position seems to me quite one sided. FYROM, hijacked, aspirations, a name they choose?

This clearly describes us as the "mistaken side". Is that fair?

I want to ask anyone (not just the mediator or any other single user) here to answer me simply few questions of my own:

1) The same people you are talking about were 500 years under the Ottoman empire. And you all know the methods the Ottomans used on this area. So, how can anyone beleive that Tito managed to "change" the ethnicity of this group for just 35 years (1945th-1980th, when he died), something that the Ottomans didn't managed to do during 500 years?

2) In the communism, the most basic idea was to keep the comunism because that was our only choise. It was the most powerful brain-washing system ever known. How did Tito manage to make us change the nation, when he didn't manage to make us keep the comunism? Was that brain-washing more powerful? Did maybe Tito gave more attention to "changing" our nationality than to the comunism itself?

3) Do you really think that one day we decided to gather and decide about our name? Do you think we choose the name over night? How ridiculous this sounds?

4) If just some 65 years ago we were something else, how come we developed in so self-aware nation? We even risk getting blocked by Greece on our road to EU and NATO. If we were something else than "Macedonians", why would we risk all our future to deffend something that is not ours? Macedonia is quite poor and our only hope is EU and NATO. How come we risk our only hope because of some identity, if that identity is not all we have?

5) Why no one gives attention to the Macedonian minorities in Greece and Bulgaria. Did maybe Tito make them "change" their nationality? Or the Macedonians in USA that live there for generations. Did maybe JFK make them become Macedonians? What about those in Canada, Australia, Sweden etc?

6) Why no one gives attention to the poor (or non-existant) Human rights of the minorities in Greece or Bulgaria? Did you mayeb read what the European Court of Human rights thinks of what they do? And that is now, in the 21st century. Can you imagine what they were doing some 50-100 years ago, when the human rights was not important to anyone who was not concerned?

7) Do you maybe know how does it feel all your famous revolutioners who fighted for Macedonia to be killed by your own neighboor, and latter the same neighboor to claim that they were actually their revolutioners? Then, why did they kill them?

The anti-Macedonian propaganda is lasting for centuries. And it still does. Of course there are some sources supporting those ideas, because the anti-Macedonian propaganda is lead by 2 much more powerful countries than Macedonia is (Bulgaria and Greece, the last was the biggest pet of the Western forces and only NATO member on the Balkan).

Is it more important what some guy who never visited Macedonia wrote, than we, as a living proof? We are here, waving, screaming, jumping... how come you can not see us? Are we so small and meaningless? Are we and the sources that support us less worthed than a pro-Bulgarian page hosted on a free hosting server (www.150m.com)?

If you decide that the Macedonian nation was formed overnight, by Tito, I would like to ask you only one thing... Can you please nominate us for the Guinness Book of Records in the cathegory of "The fasted formation of a self-aware nation"? If you deny and assimilate us, you can at least do this for us, so there can be at least one proof that we ever existed.

I appologise for my arogancy, but I would really want any of you to be a part of this nation to feel how is to constantly be denied and assimilated and everything that you ever had to be grabbed by your neighboors, who actually supposed to be your best friends. It is very easy to "negotiate" about the name, the history, the culture, the language, the origin... but only untill your own are not questioned. Right?

This issue is not about someones wish. It is not about User:Theathenae's, User:Matia.gr's and User:VMORO's happiness. It is about the identity of 2 million people, the only identity they know. Would you dare to try to take it away from us? Macedonian 03:45, 29 October 2005 (UTC)

The identity which is strongly disputed as regards pre-1944 history. As regards quick "nation-forming", you can look at a similar example - the Moldovans who became a separate nation from the Romanians overnight and pretty much at the some point - 1944-1945. According to the latest census only 2% of the population of Moldova declared itself as Romanian despite the fact that there were almost no differences between the dialects of Moldova and Romania (which existed between formal Bulgarian and the western Macedonian dialects formal Macedonian is based on). For the rest, you are only bullshitting again, trying to evoke other editers' pity about "the poor little Macedonians" and "the big bad Bulgarians and Greeks". I can defend my points and I do it, don't think that you can get away with your edits just because of pity for you and your nation, no way, dear. VMORO 22:12, 29 October 2005 (UTC)

I aint no looking for anyones pitty. I just express my frustration from the Wikipedia's vulnerability to nationalists as you are.

As I can see, you (and anyone else) obviously did not answer any of the questions above.

Considering Moldova... I can bet my life that there were also a Moldavian ethnicity before 1945th, but probably after 1945th they finally managed to show that in front of the world. Maybe they also had incredible problems with assimilation from someone else, as we did. I don't know their story, but I clearly know the story of my people. And I am sure that you don't fancy it much.

An ethnicity/nation can not be formed overnight. Maybe that is only your wish, so you can support your nationalist POV. But, in reality it is clear that can not happen just because. Macedonian 22:31, 29 October 2005 (UTC)

Moldovans (in Romanian Moldova and in the Moldova across the river) had a regional identity and strong Moldovan feelings, but they were one people, on both sides of the river, who identified as Romanians beyond their regional identity. After the Russian nation-building, we have two groups of Moldovans: the Moldovans in Romania who maintained their Romanian identity, and the Moldovans across the river in the Republic of Moldova who "discovered" that they were "not Romanians" sometime after the Soviet propaganda took hold. It can happen. Alexander 007 22:43, 29 October 2005 (UTC) (the proof is, as I pointed out, that the Moldovans in Romania did not proclaim their separateness from Romanians, nor was any assimilation done to prevent them from proclaiming this if they wanted to. So new "ethnic groups" can be created by outside forces who act on an initially regional impetus. Of course, each case is different. In the case of Macedonian, there was more difference in the language between Macedonian and standard (?) Bulgarian, whereas in Moldovan there is only some regionalisms. But still, it can happen.)

I don't think it can happen over night. If they accepted the Russian (so called) propaganda, it clearly means that they did not oppose it much.

In the Macedonia issue, it is clear that is not the case. The same people were under the Turks for 5 centuries, but did not become muslim (having on mind that the Ottoman empire was proclaiming the islam).

Another fact: In case of the ridiculous claim that the Macedonians were Bulgarians... How come only the Bulgarians in Republic of Macedonia accepted (completely) the Macedonian ethnicity, but the Albanian, Vlachs, Serbs, Roma etc. kept their nationality?

Another fact, the most powerful one: in that time, the Macedonian separate ethnicity was already a proven and accepted fact by the international comunity. That can be found in enormous ammount of document from the period before Tito.

Another, final question: If Macedonians were Bulgarians, would they fight the Bulgarian occupation on the side of the partizans and Tito (a Croatian)? Do you claim that so many people that joined the partizans decided to join their enemy and kill their brother? Tito was not on power in Macedonia until 1945th. Why the Macedonians joined his forces against the Bulgarians, if they were Bulgarians? Sorry, but it does not have any sence. Macedonian^(talk) 00:01, 30 October 2005 (UTC)

There is no dispute that the modern "Macedonians" have been in the area for over a thousand years, and that they feel that they are ethnic "Macedonians". However the fact is that they are NOT the direct descendants of the ancient Macedonian people, who were undeniably Greek. If the Greek people had given up the claim to the name Macedonia, or if the Slavic Macedonians had control of all of ancient Macedon(which they have tried to accomplish) then perhaps they could call themselves Mcedonians without any controversey. The problem is the "American" model,namely merely living in an area makes you that ethnicity. However since Greece has 3 peripheries called Macedonia, occupies the majority of ancient Macedonia, and the Greeks are the direct descendants of the ancient Macedonians, having a non-Macedonian Slavic group calling themselves Macedonians, their language Macedonian, and adopting undeniably Greek symbols, whilst only living on the outskirts of what is true Macedonia is obviously going to cause a negative response. There can be no doubt that the "Macedonians" are far more Bugarian than they are Macedonian.

You're wrong in saying that the Greeks are direct descendents of the Ancient Macedonians and the people discussed in this article are not. That is a blatantly racist approach to take - it is not possible to know the ancestry of three million people. Do you deny that a substantial number of Greeks in Macedonia may in fact have wholly Slavonic roots? You can't; in just the same way, you can't deny that there is a reasonable possibility that ethnic Macedonians may have, in some obscure form, descent from the Ancient Macedonians. The fact is that you cannot say who whose ancestors were two and a half thousand years ago. The Greeks in the Greek-controlled part of Macedonia do not identify as Macedonians in an ethnical sense, but only in a regional sense. They identify ethnically and nationally as Greeks. The people discussed in this article however, identify ethnically, nationally and regionally as Macedonians. If they did identify nationally and ethnically as Macedonians, then they would be an ethnic minority. Curiously, Greece claims to have no ethnic minorities. What does that mean? Please note that the word "Macedonia" covers a wide spectrum and is a specific modern name. It does not necessarily imply links to the Ancient Macedonians. The people of the United Kingdom refer to themselves as British - that is what the people who lived there in ancient times called themselves (see Brythonic). The vast majority of people in Britain have in fact Germanic roots, both linguistically and probably via descent. The people of Brittany in France are more closely related, in all senses, to the Ancient Britons. That doesn't stop the all people of the UK calling themselves British. GrandfatherJoe (talk • contribs) 12:28, 2 December 2005 (UTC)

Being bewildered

I can't really understand why the page was locked after the article was in an altogether satisfavctory shape after the edits if REX??? [[[User:VMORO|VMORO]] 22:12, 29 October 2005 (UTC)

I also agree that several version during day or two before the lock were more NPOV. Macedonian 22:24, 29 October 2005 (UTC)

Documents as evidence

1) [| Several documents as evidence of the separate Macedonian ethnicity in the 15th-18th century].

Adding: "And there are .... many Christians who perforce serve the Turk, such as Greeks, Bulgarians, Macedonians, Albanians, Esclavoni, Razici, Serbians..." - Bertradon de la Broquier, The 15th century travel-writer

Adding: "...it is very high, and here are to be found many monasteries of Christian monks, of whom some are Greeks, others Macedonians, Vlachs and even Italians, as well other nations, who live the lives of saints" - Angiolelo about Mt. Athos

2) [| Several Russian documents as evidence of the separate Macedonian ethnicity in the 18th century]. No wonder they were one of the first that recognized Macedonia under its constitutional name.

3) [| Several documents as evidence of the separate Macedonian ethnicity in the 19th century].

4) [| Several documents as evidence of the separate Macedonian ethnicity in the first 19 years of the 20th century].

5) [| From La Macédoine et les Macédoniens, by Edmond Bouchié de Belle [E.B.de Belle, published in Paris (Librairie Armand Colin), 1922, completed in 1918]].

6) [| Letters to "Rizospastis" (Journal of the Greek Communist Party), 1932nd-1935th]. So, not all the Greek sources were denying the existance of a Macedonian ethicity.

At the end, here is what the French Consul in Salonica (end of 18th century) Felix de Beaujour tought of Macedonia: "If one regards Macedonia from the point of view of its natural advantages, one comes to the conclusion that there exists no land in Europe where the people have more prospects of prosperity. But if it is viewed from the aspect of its political forms, one comes to the conclusion that all the misfortunes of the barbarian administration have been assembled here in order to paralyze one of the most beautiful regions of the world in all its richness and variety of products".

The Macedonian question is a clear example why many people use the phrase "the asshole of the whole world" to reffer to the Balkan. And, I don't blame them at all... Macedonian 23:20, 29 October 2005 (UTC)

The sentence: There weren't Macedonians due to the 20^th century is ridiculous, that is science fiction. Many of the older population of the Republic of Macedonia says that they were talking Macedonian and were declaring as Macedonians before 20-th century. Bomac 13:16, 30 October 2005 (UTC)

Many of the documents and facts that proove our separate identity are not on internet. The sources given above are more than enough to proove that our identity did not appear in 1945th. But, that is just a few of the sources. Macedonian^(talk) 01:47, 31 October 2005 (UTC)

Tactics and tricks

Hello everyone, I think that you all should know that there has been "movement" on the Greek Wikipedia. I was there editing a few articles and I stumbled onto some rather interesting discussions. Apparently User:Matia.gr also has a Greek identity, el:Χρήστης:Matia.gr and I noticed that people have been "plotting" a coup: el:Συζήτηση χρήστη:Kalogeropoulos#θερμή παράκληση, el:Συζήτηση χρήστη:Matia.gr#Arvanites and of course at the Village Pump. Apparently MATIA thinks that we are in violation of Wikipedia policy by allowing the article to remain at Macedonians (ethnic group) and he asked users from the Greek Wikipedia to "migrate" to the English WP and (quote): "δώσε ένα χεράκι" (i.e. give a hand, help). This concerted attempt to "force" a particular POV onto the English (i.e. the BEST) Wikipedia is unacceptable. Wikipedia should be neutral and we should all observe Wikipedia:Naming conflict#Dealing with self-identifying terms and all the other policies until it has been proven that this case is an exception. MATIA is always directing us to read his previous contributions to see why we are wrong and he is right. I've just searched them all, there's nothing there. This whole thing was sending us on a wild goose chase to find something in the previous discussions that doesn't exist. REX 14:46, 30 October 2005 (UTC)

A message from me to MATIA: Wikipedia should be neutral. If you have any sources or any arguments, write there here so that we can examine them, directing us to examine your "previous contributions" is not an argument. I cannot find anything in your previous contributions that justifies naming these people against their will and against the facts. I sincerely hope that you will mend your ways. All I want is to find a reasonably neutral compromise. REX 14:46, 30 October 2005 (UTC)

If the Macedonian users and the administrators on the English Wikipedia could hear what MATIA is saying about them (on the Greek WP, where he unloads his grievences), their ears would burn. REX 15:27, 30 October 2005 (UTC)

MATIA's perspective

On the Greek Wikipedia on Talk:Former Yugoslav Republic of Macedonia, MATIA confidently claims the following:

Οι Κρητικοί ήταν και είναι Έλληνες. Και κυρίως νιώθουν Έλληνες. Οι Σκοπιανοί από το 1940 περίπου βαφτίστηκαν Μακεδόνες κι όλα γίναν μακεδονικά. Μακεδονικό δηνάριο, δημοκρατία μακεδονίας, μόνο τον χαλβά δε μας φάγανε ακόμα. Το νόμισμά τους όπως και τα υπόλοιπα είναι κομμάτι της προπαγάνδας τους.

Ματιά 21:25, 18 Ιουν. 2005 (UTC)

Translation: Cretans were and are Greeks. And they mainly feel Greeks. Skopyans from round about 1940 were baptised (ie started to be called) Macedonians and everything became Macedonian. Macedonian denar, Republic of Macedonia, all they haven't taken yet is our halva. Their currency like everything else is part of their propaganda.
Matia 21:25, 18 June 2005 (UTC)

I must express my shock to this hurtful statement and attempt to strip the Macedonians of their identity. I guess we now know what MATIA's views on the issues are. I hope that MATIA can give a satisfactory explanation for all this. Rex^(talk) 22:09, 30 October 2005 (UTC)

I think that Matia.gr should be reported for this organization of POV push. I know that the mediator (User:Ed Poor) is quite bussy in something which is not so ridiculous as this dispute is, but I would like to ask him to express his oppinion on this kind of actions. Are we allowed to do them? If we are allowed, we should know, so we can react respectivly. Thanks in advance. Macedonian^(talk) 01:32, 31 October 2005 (UTC)

If that kind of think is allowed, maybe we could get support from the Macedonian Wikipedia (FlavrSavr is an administrator there) and the Albanian Wikipedia. I'm sure that many people would help us NPOV push against MATIA's dishonest tactics. Let's ask Uncle Ed what he thinks. Rex^(talk) 09:17, 31 October 2005 (UTC)

where are the admins now?

couldn't help wondering about that. My opinions are already recorded in English Wikipedia. It's very interesting that REX escalated his wiki-stalking, but as I told him before he could have read the poll. And no the poll cannot be interpreted as binary. Alll the comments on the poll should be checked by the Med's. And I don't expect REX to dictate what kind of thinking is allowed. Boolean logic or Circular logic doesn't apply on my comments. +MATIA ☎ 17:38, 1 November 2005 (UTC)

What do you mean, wiki-stalking, MATIA. It's you who are wiki-stalking. That you look at people's contribs is well-known. If you check, you would notice that I had an account at the Greek Wikipedia before you did. You followed me there! Rex^(talk) 17:54, 1 November 2005 (UTC)

Followed you there: I would laugh but I can't. As for the edits... I have 1797 here and 1468 in greek WP (both are since my registration following you last june and I 've never used any other account). I'll gather all your calumnies, you are boring. +MATIA ☎ 18:36, 1 November 2005 (UTC)

Can you, +MATIA tell us what the Greek Wikipedia says about the modern Macedonians? I would really like some of the administrators to see what kind of POV push and national-shovinism is happening there. Macedonian^(talk) 05:00, 2 November 2005 (UTC)

If I'm wikistalking you, how do you explain that I had an account at the Greek wikipedia before you did. Can I see into the future and know that you would too? Rex^(talk) 18:57, 1 November 2005 (UTC)

Also, I don't care much for you personal attacks. Don't you dare dicipline me for PA after you have behaved this way. So I called a poll, so what? I am a man of honour, I have nothing to fear (and nothing to lose). I wanted the article at Arvanitika. You caused a dispute, now a poll shall resolve the dispute with a consensus once and for all. Rex^(talk) 18:01, 1 November 2005 (UTC)

You don't understand WP policies and perhaps I don't either. We'll have them explained to us, but not here. +MATIA ☎ 18:44, 1 November 2005 (UTC)

Of course, especially the policies on sources, such as UNESCO, which you reject for the mere reason that you disagree with what you say. Where are your sources? All you ever say is that we should check your previous contributions. You have NEVER provided a direct argument. It has always been evasion, hasn't it. Here's your chance. Give me one GOOD reason why what you are saying is correct (anything, just don't say look at you previous contribs). I searched your previous contribs, there's nothing there. Page moves should be done with consensus, not at the whims of you and Theathenae. A suitable consensus will be found. If you want to learn WP policies, read WP:V, WP:Cite sources, WP:NOR, WP:RC etc. Also, about that Biris book, I have read it. Isn't it a hard-back pale green book with a pencil drawing on the cover? If it is, I've read it, nd there's NOTHING there. Rex^(talk) 18:57, 1 November 2005 (UTC)

Also, +MATIA, please provide some neutral source. Not a nationalistic pro-Greek page such as www.macedonia.com. Macedonian^(talk) 05:00, 2 November 2005 (UTC)

Step by step

Could anybody please explain me what points of the article are the subject of the dispute, specifically? There's no point in general discussions (there are forums for that), we are here to discuss how disputes will be described in the text of the article (not in the real world). I have a proposal - since the naming dispute is more or less resolved on WP, I propose to resolve the other specific disputes step by step, starting with the top of the article. That would be the populations of Macedonians in various countries? After we work out a specific version that would be in accordance with the NPOV policy, we would go and try to solve the other disputes. The logic behind this is that there is no point in trying to solve complex historical debates, without first solving the more tangible disputes. --FlavrSavr 20:55, 30 October 2005 (UTC)

So, do you agree with this approach? (note: I'm in a busy period, I might not be able to discuss thouroughly until the end of the week) --FlavrSavr 20:55, 30 October 2005 (UTC)

I agree with this approach. The naming dispute is already resolved and that policy shall be in force until a good reason is found why this case should be treated as an exception. All other disputed areas can be seen here. Let's work on them one by one taking into consideration Wikipedia policies Wikipedia:Verifiability, Wikipedia:No original research, Wikipedia:NPOV and of course Wikipedia:Cite sources and Wikipedia:Reliable sources. Rex^(talk) 21:51, 30 October 2005 (UTC)

I completely agree with you, guys. We should identify all the problems and write the article in a NPOV way. An article like this can not be assimilative and saying that the modern Macedonians are product of Tito's imagination, when there are great number of sources for separate Macedonian ethnicity even back to 15th century, when actually the ethnicity took more attention by the historians. There are several issues, but we have to work on them, one by one. Macedonian^(talk) 01:43, 31 October 2005 (UTC)

Of course Tito did not create the Macedonians. It is foolish to think that one man can create a whole nation. Bomac 08:12, 31 October 2005 (UTC)

will we have a second one-night-consensus?

How nice that you all agree, again. Almost as nice as this. +MATIA ☎ 18:51, 1 November 2005 (UTC)

When REX contacted me, he only asked me to vote on the issue. On the other hand, there are clear contributions of yours at the Greek Wikipedia where you are calling the users there against the Macedonians. Not to vote or tell their oppinion. You are calling them to attack the Macedonian position. Macedonian^(talk) 05:07, 2 November 2005 (UTC)

User:"Macedonian"

The above user's melodramatic pap about "human rights" all rings rather hollow when one considers his purely chauvinistic attempt to extinguish any reference to the Bulgarian and Greek minorities in the Republic of Skopje: [3], [4]. He even disputes the fact that 51% of geographical Macedonia belongs to Greece[5]. Selective denial of the mere existence of ethnic minorities in his country, thinly-veiled irredentism against a neighbouring country, and an obsession with using a disputed ethnonym and national flag to identify himself. Who is the nationalist here?--Theathenae 15:59, 1 November 2005 (UTC)

I only revert Theathenae's nationalistic edits that he has no sources about. That is just another of his nationalistic POVs. And this is also another of his tacktics of moving our attention away from the real problem and wasting time here. As you probably know, User:Theathenae was already banned from the Swedish Wikipedia for using this kind of tacktics for pushing his nationalistic POV.

This claim of User:Theathenae is his answer to the realistic poor (or even non-existant) human rights of the minorities in Greece, including the Macedonian minority. There is no human rights organization that support Theathenae's nationalistic claims. On the other side, every major human rights organization in the world which is present in the region has given harsh critics towards Greece for its poor (or non-existant) human rights given to the minorities.

Republic of Macedonia, the country where I live in, has an open field for nationality where you can put ANYTHING you want. In the last census we even had "a can" written as nationality. Also, my Mexican wife is also registered as Mexican, no matter she is the only one in the country. Theathenae clearly knows that since 2001st, Macedonia has one of the best laws in whole Europe on this issue, providing all the rights to the nationalities.

I am a co-worker of a Greek girl here in Republic of Macedonia. Her whole family (Cilimingas) is Greek and they are all registered as a Greeks. I would be glad to ask her for her comment. I am sure she will be glad to comment on this nonsence by User:Theathenae, because she alone is extremely sick of these kind of nationalistic claims.

For any case, here is a link where you can clearly see that the national censuses since 1953rd lists even the nationalities with less than 100 "members": [| Ethnic structure of the population of Republic of Macedonia]. Even the Ruthenian with 11 people are in this table.

But, anyway, as I said, User:Theathenae would use any method he can to turn the attention away from the issue and keep hidding all the sceletons in the closets, when concerning the issue between Macedonia and Greece.

This is not the first time he uses these methods.

I already asked some administrators to check his edits and see his methods here on Wikipedia. Won't anyone ask an arbitration for this guy for this kind of tactics? Sweedish Wikipedia already gave him life-time ban. And I don't think it was because he was an "angel".

He shouldn't be allowed to make us waste time on this senceless and ridiculous claims, instead on reall issue.

Concerning the 51%, that is also ridiculous. The region of Macedonia does not have strict borders, neighter bordering regions from all sides, so there is no base to calculate with percents. The number of 51% shows alone that this claim was only added for giving the reader false impresion that Greece has control over the region. Macedonian^(talk) 04:51, 2 November 2005 (UTC)

What about you Theathenae. I have given you sources stating the number of Macedonians in Greece nad you pretend they don't exist! This is stupid! You are the nationalist. I am merely a moderate person who wants to see NPOV on Wikipedia. You are the nationalist. Anyone can verify that from your contributions. POV pushing! You Swedish ID sv:User:Arvanítis has been BANNED for that kind of thing. Rex^(talk) 16:10, 1 November 2005 (UTC)

I disputed your preposterous claim that there are 180,180 Greek citizens who identify ethnically as "Macedonians". The real number is closer to 2,955, the precise number of votes received by the Rainbow Party at the last European Parliament elections in the 13 Macedonian prefectures of Greece. As for Arvanítis, he wasn't banned last time I checked. He made a contribution as recently as today, in fact. ;)--Theathenae 16:20, 1 November 2005 (UTC)

How do you know how many Macedonians (ethnic group) live in Greece when Greece denies any existance of minorities in Greece and does not include ethnicities in the census? Are you trying to hide all the reports of various human rights organizations who harshly criticise Greece? Are you trying to hide that even now in the 21st century there are often and violent represions against anyone who declares as Macedonian? If that is happening now, can you imagine what was happening in the past, some 100 years ago, when the humman rights were not so important issue?

Or, do you maybe Theathenae want to hide the final decisions of the European Court for human rights against Greece and in favor of the Macedonian minority in Greece?

Should I remind you to these posts, where we can clearly see how Greece acts towards the Macedonians that live there: [[6]], [[7]], [[8]].

I will insisnt the issue of human rights in Greece to be considered, always offering relevant sources. And, I will be glad if you can find one (neutral please, not a Greek nationalistic POV push), instead of imagining them. Macedonian^(talk) 04:51, 2 November 2005 (UTC)

Hmm, how did he make a contribution? Via sockpuppetry (ie User:Thrakiotis). Very dishonest, tut tut! Ethnologue is a reliable source, you figures emerge from original research and therefore cannot be used. Am I not saying it right or something? Rex^(talk) 16:26, 1 November 2005 (UTC)

English is clearly not your native language. User:Thrakiotis happens to be a good friend of mine who was outraged when informed of your Albanian chauvinism on Arvanites, but has neither the time nor the propensity to get actively involved. I am chatting to him on MSN as we speak... ;)--Theathenae 16:30, 1 November 2005 (UTC)

And I am talking to Pres. Bush now (who happened to be afriend of mine), on ICQ. He promised he will ask CIA to check your claim. :)))) Macedonian^(talk) 04:51, 2 November 2005 (UTC)

Ha ha ha ha ha! Don't make me laugh! OK, User:Rexhep Bojaxhiu is a good friend of mine, too :-) Rex^(talk) 16:34, 1 November 2005 (UTC) Look, Theathenae, all jokes aside now. Can't we come up with a compromise to solve all these issues? i'm sure that I can convince Bomac, FlavrSavr etc to consent to the Greek figures. Big Deal! I'll consent if you stop POV pushing and try to find a neutral compromise like Uncle Ed keep telling us. Rex^(talk) 16:34, 1 November 2005 (UTC)

I have no reason to lie. He happened to be online when we were in the midst of our usual edit war, but I am not User:Thrakiotis and User:Thrakiotis is not I. I am not even Thracian; I'm a proud Maniot. Sockpuppetry is a rather immature practice - you really should reconsider your approach.--Theathenae 16:38, 1 November 2005 (UTC)

If the sockpuppetry is a rather immature practice, why you keep using it? Why you keep using all the dishonest methids, just to take the attention away from the real issues? Macedonian^(talk) 04:51, 2 November 2005 (UTC)

If there is anything more pitiful than Greeks insisting "Macedonians were Greek", it is Slavs insisting "Macedonians are Slavs". Why isn't there even a disambiguation notice? Just divide the turf, make all unspecified "Macedonian" articles simple disambiguation pages, and then talk about Macedonian Slavs, Macedonian Greeks, and Ancient Macedonians and stop haggling, this is a disgrace. If we can specify Ancient Macedonian language, why shouldn't we specify Slavic Macedonian language and make Macedonian language a disambiguation page? That's the only NPOV way, cope with it. dab 83.79.181.171 22:43, 1 November 2005 (UTC)

We can not specify those pages, because there is no "Macedonian Slavs" in the world. The term "Macedonians" is used by more than 95% of the relevant sources around the world for discribing this group.

There is also NO "Slavic Macedonian Language". There can only be "Macedonian language" whose origin is dominantly Slavic. But the official name of the language, supported again by more than 95% of the relevant sources is "Macedonian language". Macedonian^(talk) 04:51, 2 November 2005 (UTC)

Because no one calls it Slavic Macedonian language. Britannica in fact, calls it Macedonian language and the poeple Macedonians. Rex^(talk) 22:47, 1 November 2005 (UTC)

Go to Macedonian language and search for Slavic. +MATIA ☎ 23:27, 1 November 2005 (UTC)

But does Britannica dispute that it is Slavic? I don't think so. 'Slavic' is an adjective, by calling it Slavic Macedonian language, we are still calling it "Macedonian language" (not South-West Bulgarian or something), with added information for disambiguation. The simple fact is that there are two languages that are called "Macedonian". Wikipedia pracitice in these cases is disambiguation, either by more descriptive titles, or by adding terms in brackets. We could have Macedonian language (Slavic), that would be unproblematic. We could also have Macedonians (Slavic). Just don't go about talking about NPOV and human rights (not you, I mean Sterbinski, what the hell does this have to do with anything) and avoid to recognize that there are simply other things known by the same name, which calls for disambiguation. You are free to use the word, but that doesn't mean you own it. 83.79.181.171 22:57, 1 November 2005 (UTC)

That is why you have the disambiguation page. To pick up the term that you are looking for. And, Yes, Slavic is an adjective, but putted together it seems that the name of the language is "Slavic Macedonian Language". And, as you can see on the Macedonian language page, the Slavic origin of the language is clearly shown.

You can not change the names of the articles just because you do not like it. There is a world outside your own dorm, a world which also has rights.

Also, "Macedonians (Slavic)" is completely wrong, hence the modern Macedonians have origin from several other ethnicities that lived in the region through the history. Same as any Balkan ethnic group. Macedonian^(talk) 04:51, 2 November 2005 (UTC)

Oh really? How would YOU (anonimous) feel if the name of your language has some prefixes or suffixes in it? On the other hand, there are many variants of the Greek language (for example), but nobody adds some stupid unnecessary addings. Other, say the language as his speakers want to - Macedonian language. Bomac 23:03, 1 November 2005 (UTC)

You didn't have that problem when you supported REX labeling Arvanites as Albanians, or did you? +MATIA ☎ 23:28, 1 November 2005 (UTC)

REX does not label them as Albanians. It only shows the origin of the language, as supported by any relevant source on the world. Again, if your nationalistic mind does not like it, that is not mine or Wikipedia's problem. Wikipedia is trying to give real information. Not someone's wishes and nationalistic POVs. Macedonian^(talk) 04:51, 2 November 2005 (UTC)

Of course +MATIA is a nationalist. That you can CLEARLY see from his user page. Bomac 16:11, 2 November 2005 (UTC)

He wans't labeling Arvanites as Albanians, he was implementing the SOURCES on the disputed status of Arvanitic which ic called an Albanian dialect by UNESCO, Ethnologue, Britannica, Encarta, The University of Ohio etx but Matia doesn't believe them. Are they all wrong? Rex^(talk) 23:36, 1 November 2005 (UTC)

Stating the obvious

I'm stating in public the changes I'll be making to this article for the sake of wikipedia's last traces of neutrality.

• Restore the article's first paragraph which states the difference between modern Macedonian Slavic and the unrelated ancient Macedonian civilization.
• Remove the ludicrous reference on the "origin" section on how some "Macedonian historians" (whatever that means) believe that Macedonian Slavs are not really the descendants of the Slavs but of the ancient Macedonians and the related disgraceful edits.

If we leave the Makedonski Slavic editors have it their way, then we might as well add in the Ancient Macedonian Language article that it might have been a Slavic language. As from now, any unjustified reverts to my edits will be regarded as an act of edit war. Regards. Miskin 12:56, 2 November 2005 (UTC)

Of course I will revert that kind of edits. All you want to do with this edits is to erase any possible connection bewteen the Antient and modern Macedonians (ethnic group).

Firstable, you can not add a paragraph denying the relation between the 2, because only a fool can claim that there is no relation at all. It is about time you and all your fellow nationalist to wake up from your dream and realise that not only Greece can be connected to the Antient Macedonians. Maybe now most of the teritory of that Greece is in Greece, but it is a fact that some 100 years ago that teritory was populated mostly by Slavic people (no matter were they Bulgarian or Macedonian).

Anyway... you are talking about the Antient Macedonians, who lived 25 centuries ago. For you to see how long is that, just rty to count year by year. Than, try to figure our... each of those years has 365 days. Do you know how many things changed and how much mixing between the people happened since then? Do you know how much the demographic profile of the region changed since then?

I agree that the article should say that the biggest part of our origin is Slavic (like it always said), but a part of that origin is from several other ethnicities (including the Antique Macedonians) that lived here before the Slavic arived. Same as the Bulgars are a part of the Bulgarian now, no matter the Bulgarians are mostly Slavic.

Also, it is unacceptable you to erase the part saying that the some historians connects us closer to the Antique Macedonians. To be honest, I really do not care are they right or not (as I said before, I am not very happy that there is a possibility a part of my origin to be of a senceless crazy killer like Alexander the Great was) But, it is a fact that those historians can not be ignored, because they are reality (same as your claim that the Antique Macedonians are Greeks, no matter most of the world denies it and no matter there are at least 20 centuries difference between those people and the formation of the modern Greek identity). Macedonian^(talk) 04:34, 4 November 2005 (UTC)

I support Miskin in this case. The differences between Ancient Macedonians and the modern ethnic group must be quite clear in order to avoid confusion if we want the article to remain where it is. Rex^(talk) 13:04, 2 November 2005 (UTC)

Talking about the difference, YES it should be clear. But, the possibility of they to be connected can not be ignored.

Also, this is only acceptable if the difference between the modern Greeks and the Antique Macedonians is as clear as the one between the modern Macedonians and the Antique Macedonians. Macedonian^(talk) 04:34, 4 November 2005 (UTC)

This has nothing to do with me, I am not Macedonian, nor Greek. Rex^(talk) 14:17, 2 November 2005 (UTC)

And as an old Japanese proverb says: "If you throw a stone at a stray dog, it will never take food from you again"... Miskin 08:30, 3 November 2005 (UTC)

There is an old Greek proverb which says: "όποιος μπλέκεται με τα άχυρα τον τρώνε οι κότες". In other words, "keep out of things that don't concern you". Rex^(talk) 08:44, 3 November 2005 (UTC)

180,180

Ethologue mentions 180,180 Macedonian language speakers in Greece (1986 census). This noumber here is used as a synonymous to "Macedonians"!! That's not right since only a handfull of slavic speakers in Greece would claim an not-greek ethnicity.
Apart from the above, the 180,180 as an estimation of Slavic speakers in Greece is totaly imaginary in my opinion. What "1986 census" is that? Who did it? I guess they might just have sumed up the total population of vilages that used to have slavic speakers 50 years ago. Anyway, this number seems just redicilous to anyone having even the smalest personal experience with Greece. Anyone interested in seeing why I say that may have a look in my comment in [[9]].--Mik2 12:03, 6 November 2005 (UTC)

The first time it was discussed and analysed and the "n-1"th time. +MATIA ☎ 13:20, 6 November 2005 (UTC)

Look, it is simple. Greece does not recognize minorities within its borders. Also, there are inormous ammount of data all around the web, including every major human rights organization who claims there is significant Macedonian (or Slav, as you say) minority in northern Greece. I know this is truth, because I use Macedonian more than English any time I go in Florina (Lerin). Maybe Mik2 should try to travel a little through those regions.

I am avare that through the period of endless assimilation that was happening there, many of those people started proclaiming themselves as Greek. But, it is a fact that the national feeling can not just be lost like that.

So, which Greek census we can use, when Greece is ignoring and assimilating the Macedonians for more than 100 years?

No wonder the Macedonians in Greece supported the communist party during the civil war there. They were the only power in Greece in the last 100 years who was recognizing their existance. Macedonian^(talk) 04:10, 7 November 2005 (UTC)

• Don't worry about my traveling experiences Macedonian:) Actualy I have traveled to Florina more than 50 times and I have spent there more than two years of my life. That's because I am partialy from there.
  

It's true that you can use alot of slavic in Florina. But estimations of 100.000-200.000 speakers sound redicilus to anyone living in Greece and having a personal experience from Makedonia.

you say "But, it is a fact that the national feeling can not just be lost like that.". It's questionable if a "macedonian national feeling" ever existed between slavs of Makedonia, even in FYROM teritories. Almost all of them would identify themselfs as Bulgarians or Greeks 100 years ago. No matter what you are told in FYROM schools, that's a fact, face with it.

"So, which Greek census we can use, when Greece is ignoring and assimilating the Macedonians for more than 100 years?" It's true that Greece had done alot to get rid of minority languages, including the slavomacedonian language. One of the sad outcomes of the greek politicy in this subject is that we don't have any Greek census. But that doesn't mean we can use an imaginary census.--Mik2 21:08, 7 November 2005 (UTC)

OK, this new edit of yous seems more NPOV and I can tell you that I have better oppinion of you now.

I personaly beleive that an estimate of 100.000-200.000 is realistic for people Macedonian (ethnic group) origin. I am not so sure how much of them speak the Macedonian language, because they were not allowed to speak it for more than 50 years (as you know, because as you said, you lived in Florina). So, many of the new generations know the language much less.

The question of the Macedonians identify as Bulgarians some 100 years ago is very questionable. I tried to explain it several times before. Maybe you can look through my posts, because it is quite boring to keep repeating the same things. Anyway, I hope you are aware that a completely self-aware nation can not be grown over night. An average lifetime is about 75 years. Also, I think you know that the family is the one who raises you to be a part of some religion or nationality (I am sure if you were born in Indian Hindu family, you would probably that, an Indian Hindu). So, think about it how ridiculous is to claim that just 100 years ago we were Bulgarians. If you are in my scin now, you would know how senceless that seems to me (as a ethnic Macedonian).

Also, I have to say that our history books dedicate very little time to these area of the history. Out national Macedonian feeling can not be lost just because someone else says that we are Bulgarians.

All I learned about this issue is from international sources and archives (at least the ones available on-line).

I would like to ask you to check this out and see that there are even documents that mention separate Macedonian ethnicity even back in 15th century. Also, that link will show you even Greek sources from the 1930s that recognize the separate Macedonian ethnicity, much before Tito even appeared. Just a reminder that all the Macedonian supported the Greek communist party during the Greek civil war with one reason only: the other option was denying the existance of the separate Macedonian ethnicity, same as the Greek goverment does today, in the 21st century.

So, the next time when you go to Florina, ask some of those people and talk to them as friend. If they trust you (having on mind the represions they still experience), they will tell you what they feel as their ethnicity. Macedonian^(talk) 05:03, 9 November 2005 (UTC)

To clear some thinks: The slavs of Greek Makedonia traditionaly use the word "Makedonski" to describe themselfs and their language. But they don't use the word like you in FYROM use it. "Makedonski" for the vast majority of them means "someone living in Macedonia" or "the language used by us the Makedonski". Anyone leaving in north Greece may also use that word saying "I am Macedonian", not only slavic speakers. In other words, by saying "I am Makedonski" they don't mean "I belong to the Macedonian nation", but they mean "I live in Macedonia". No dought, they do live in Macedonia.

Have in mind that a nation is not something like the race or the colour of your skin, that exists de facto. Nation is a politic and social term. A nation exists only and only if some people believe they belong to it (if and only if there is a national consiousness). When it comes to the slavs of Macedonia, even thouth they did use the word "Makedonski" to describe themselfs, they didn't have the fealing of being a nation. (see the paragraph i wrote before). Therefore a "Macedonian" nation didn't exist before the begining of the 20th century.

Some people indeed used to describe the slavs of Macedonia as different from Bulgarians (I don't know their reasons for that, maybe slightly different language, mayby different lovation, maybe politics). But since only a very few slavs of macedonia identified themselfs as different from Bulgarians, Greeks or Serbs a nation didn't exist.

The above is ofcourse not restricted to Slavomacedonians. All nations do not exist, before some people start believeing that the belong to a specific nation. After all, nation as an idea is a product of 18th and 19th centuries. Taking that into account, one may say that no nation existed before that period, including Greek, German and Chinese.--Mik2 19:41, 9 November 2005 (UTC)

Come on, you know by yourself that no modern Greek ever says that he is "Macedonian". Also, a suprise for you: we, the Macedonians (ethnic group) actually use the word "Makedonski", which is the only refference to this term on our Macedonian language. There is no other name for this.

Also, we do not need your view of the politics if it is based on denials. It is enought of that bullshit here. Wikipedia is a free enciclopedia and you can not expect it to follow your own POV which is based on denial of the Macedonian nation, so you can have exclusive rights over the name "Macedonia". That won't happen, deal with it.

Maybe you should read what nation means.

Another thing... why you only talk about the past? You live in a time when the Macedonians are recognized internationaly by any relevant source as separate nation.

And, by that name: "Macedonians". The past is much diffferent than the one you want to present here, but I am not going to waste my time on that now. Lets talk about reality, about the present. A present where the modern "Macedonian" nation is reality. Macedonian^(talk) 08:10, 13 November 2005 (UTC)

Ofcourse there is a nation now that call itself "Macedonian". Wheather or not it is the right name for it, that nation had been formed, and exists. I guess you didn't understand what I wrote.

Anyway, talking about the present the 180180 estimation is out of this world and should be removed. Maybe some people can listen their heart beat when listening to such estimations, but it causes a laughter to anyone that have any personal experience with Greece. It should be revomed for the good of Wikipedia.--Mik2 20:12, 14 November 2005 (UTC)

I'm sorry, dear. Ethnologue says that there are 180,180 speakers of "Slavic" in Greece. Therefore, as per Wikipedia policy, what has been published by a reputable publisher shall be used in the article regardless whether Mik (which means "friend" in Arvanitic) believes it or not. Rex^(talk) 20:19, 14 November 2005 (UTC)

Does anyone have any information about that cencus? By whom it was done, what methods were used, and who is considered a "Macedonian language speaker" in it? And remember they sey "cansus", not "estimation". Since greek governement doesn't ask questions about minority languages in census, who had the money and time to perform a "census"? Did a group of researchers go around all northern Greece and asked every single person what language he/she speaks? I am not amnesiac and I don't remember anyone asking neither me, nor my grandparents living in Florina region. I have no idea on how Ethologue (that surely is a reputable publisher) found that number. It's realy surprising.
Mik=friend in Arvanitika? Funny:) Actualy I am not Arvanitis and Mik comes from my first name.--Mik2 20:53, 15 November 2005 (UTC)

Mik2, the simplest solution to this is Greece to allow a free census and stop the represions against the Macedonians (ethnic group). Even then, after years and years of represion, we can not expect every Macedonian to register as such. But, it is a start. A start that can make us get over this issue once for all times. Instead of living like brothers, we keep frustrating each other and fear each other. Not a good thing and I am sure you know that.

All the problems and arguements we have between us are only in our heads. In real life, nothing of that is valid. When we both (Macedonians and Greeks) free our minds, we might find a solution and finally start living as real neighboors. Macedonian^(talk) 05:46, 19 November 2005 (UTC)

I would like too to see a census about national consiousness in Greece. But untill it is done one we realy cannot estimate a number of people in Greece that proclaim a non-greek identity. (100.000-200.000! ha!!)--Mik2 08:01, 19 November 2005 (UTC)

I'm afraid that Greeks afraid to do that. They are scared about it because they want their country to be ethnically clear, which is impossible nowadays. Bomac 12:47, 19 November 2005 (UTC)

Greeks? You mean the state I suppose. All Balcan countries, including Greece, are afraid of possible diferent ethinisities in their borders. Greece is afraid mainly the possible existance of some people that speak slavic and do not cosnider themselfs greeks. I am 95% sure that they can't be more that 5000. On the other hand there is no matter about Arvanites and Aromanians. You may search all greece and you won't find nowadays more than 500 people that speak those languages and not consider themselfs as greeks. Other countries are afraid minorities too. FYROM in it's censuses consider Aromanians as different ethinicisty from Greeks, even though 99% of the masculine population and more than the haalf of female population spoke Greek too 50-100 years ago, and almost all of them cosnidered themselfs as greeks. This is done deliberetaly to avoid admiting the existance of a greek minority in it's borders. It's the last thing FYROM would want. Same does Albania with Aromanians, although the subject is more complicated there.

Anyway, you people from former "communist" democracies are looking for an identity. It's totaly understood why you are so eager to descover suffering minorities in Greece. I hope it will fade away with the years, for your sake too. Untill then you should be more carefull when reafrering to those subjects. Possibly most of your information is not by non-neutral sources and most of you don't have any personal experience. Nationalists from various countries made Wikipedia's articles about the balkans realy a mess. Like it or not, Greece is today the country of the Balcans with the most stable and developed sense of identity. And this sence is constant not only among those who speak Greek and only Greek. It is also so among Arvanites, Aromanians, Slavomacedonians and Roma. Making Greece look like a country with the biggest minority problem, is such exists, is toataly unfair. Expecialy when propaganda is done by people in FYROM (UCK is still present there isn't it?) and from Albanians, whose country has been oppresing greeks of northern Epirous (or Southern Albania if you like) for decades. Not to mention Bulgarian natinalists that keep draming. Nationalists may ofcourse continue to edit articles in the way the like, and I think that that's what they will do, making themselfs and all other Balcanians something to laugh at. Their national feeling may get stronger when discovering all their "brothers" that "suffer" in Greece, but if they care a litle bit about reality they should start thinking.

PS. Some refear to NGO's or other sources and consider them always neutral. Why? Do or don't people like George Soros pay some bills of Helsinki watch? Do those sources or encylcopedias have a NPOV policy? In some USA states it is taught in scools that Darwin was wrong and human is made by god as the bible says. Those people have their encyclopedias too. Do we have to cosnider those encyclopedias reliable?--Mik2 18:17, 19 November 2005 (UTC)

Mik, a short comment. Are you even aware how ridiculous this post looks like? You obviously have no knowledge about the region. I invite you to visit Republic o Macedonia, you will be suprised when you realise that all that you learned in your school has no base in real lie. Propaganda claims can not change the reality. Macedonian^(talk) 15:04, 24 November 2005 (UTC)

Why don't you stop insulting people? It's common knowledge that Greece and every other continental European country has ethnic minorities. Just because you don't believe or don't want to believe or believe but don't want other people to believe that there are ethnic minrities in Greece that doesn't mean that we can't be right. Why don't you find some sources to prove your claim that Greece is 100% Greek speaking and that Britannica is lying? Until you do, you will be simply trolling the article. The international human rights organisations estimates on the number of Vorioipirote Greeks in Albania are used on Greeks though. So we can use the Helsinki watch's estimates when estimating the number of Greeks in other countries but we can't use their estimates on how many ethnic Macedonians there are in Greece? These blatant double standards have got to stop. Rex^(talk) 18:53, 19 November 2005 (UTC)

In many countries north of Greece, there was socialism (not communism). By the way Macedonia (in that time part of Yugoslavia) was in the so called "untied countries" (nor the west, nor the east). Greece took the place to enter the EU Yugoslavia supposed to have. So, don't make Greece as one of the "most reasonable and advanced countries in the Balkan region". And, there is a big number of macedonians and other minorities in Greece, no matter how much you want to hide taht fact. Bomac 19:39, 19 November 2005 (UTC)

Saying that Greece is advanced is a bit POV. If Greece were advanced would se have been convicted by the European Court of Human Rights for petty Human Rights violations? Greece is one of the countries that have shown minimal degrees of development since joining the EU. They wasted all that aid that they were given; they didn't use it wisely like the Republic of Ireland did and developed a Celtic Tiger economy that Greece is still struggling to match. Advanced, HA! Rex^(talk) 19:47, 19 November 2005 (UTC)

I forgot that nationalists don't understand other colors than black and white. Also I can see a complex of inferiority here. Anyway, I am too old and too tired to go on discussing about the 200.000 Macedonians in Greece, 400.000 Chinese in Cyprus and and 5.000.000 Klingons in Sweden. As long as some people are so eager to make Wikipedia unreliable let them do it. It seems so important for them. I am out of these discusions--Mik2 22:29, 20 November 2005 (UTC)

Too old and tired to opose sources and acts? Even i you are 20 yearl old hiper active kid, it will be very diicult or you because o one simple act... you are missing relevant sources. Macedonian^(talk) 15:04, 24 November 2005 (UTC)

Στο καλό και να μη μας γράφεις... Rex^(talk) 22:35, 20 November 2005 (UTC)

Yet another treatment without wikiquette. +MATIA ☎ 15:15, 24 November 2005 (UTC)

Content moved from Macedonia (region)

I've moved the following content out of Macedonia (region) and will integrate it into this article when it's been unprotected. I'll remove it from the talk page when I'm done. -- ChrisO 14:44, 6 November 2005 (UTC)

They consider themselves to be a distinct ethnic group, a claim controversial as many Bulgarians and Greeks believe that they are merely a subset of another people, usually the Bulgarians. They call themselves Macedonians but this term is vehemently opposed by Greeks when used to describe the Slav majority of Republic of Macedonia or a Slavic minority in northern Greece. Greece argues that this usage is inaccurate as Macedonia is in fact inhabited by a number of different peoples, none of whom has a historically exclusive claim to the term with the exception of the native Macedonians who have inhabited the region since the days of ancient Macedonia. (The question of whether the ancient Macedonians were in fact Greek is controversial, as many ancient Greeks - especially political enemies of Macedonian Kings, such as Demosthenes- regarded the Macedonians as non-Greek barbarians. On the other hand Macedonian kings regarded themselves as Greek. All inscriptions in ancient tombs and relics are in Greek related Ancient Macedonian language or in plain ancient Greek language. By 5th century BC Macedonians participated in the Olympic games adding another factor as to how they were regarded, since only Greeks were permitted to participate in the Panhellenic Games at Olympia; see the article on Macedon for more information.) The term is often used by Slavs of the region to mean the Christian Slav inhabitants of both the Republic of Macedonia and of northern Greece. Muslim Bulgarians are called Pomaks.

This text is a complete POV push and anti-Macedonian. It needs to be worked on really a lot. And, BTW, this text is a try to make difference between the modern Macedonians and the Antique Macedonians, a try that turned into a serious POV pusher.

Please check this link and you will see that a there are documents that mention separate Macedonian ethnicity even in the 15th century.

Again, I willnot ever (same as any Macedonian in the world) accept this kind of POV push. If there were anti-Macedonian assimilation attempts and denials some 100 years ago, that can not be allowed in the 21st century. Macedonian^(talk) 04:22, 7 November 2005 (UTC)

Modern and ancient Macedonian culture / ethnicity

I don't think Wikipedia should endorse the point of view (Wikipedia:POV) that the modern "Macedonians (ethnic group)" are completely unrelated to the ancient Makedonians.

It would be better to leave this as an unsettled question.

Say, rather, that Group A claims to see a relationship and that Group B denies the existence of such a relationship. That's good for the intro.

Somewhere in the body of the article, we should explain WHY some people do or do accept the idea that modern and ancient "Macedonians" are related:

• evidence they give which hints at / proves there is a relationship
• evidence showing that the relationship was invented by politician C or party D

Remember, the Wikipedia:NPOV policy recommends against trying to use Wikipedia to settle controversies. As encyclopedia contributors, we should be trying to describe the controversy, not settle it. Uncle Ed 21:11, 10 November 2005 (UTC)

NPOV says to state the facts. Some facts were pre-agreed before the big poll - they are still out of the article. What is the majority and what is the minority view in the scientific community? What do those people feel about it? (they stated their opinion in the poll and later in various talk pages). Will all the WP rules be broken and bented in this issue? All that needs to be done is to find a good disambiguation term. Various have been proposed, but all have been rejected in favor of Macedonians plain vanilla. Have they been self-identifying as Macedonians plain vanilla since 1992, write it in WP as the rules say. Have they used other terms before? Can any of them be used as a disambiguation? Why all other Macedonians are Macedonians-something? If the terms slav-slavic is offensive why do their historians and their politicians use it? Can something like that be used as a disambig? Well I don't know because they never answered such questions because they wanted to be named plain-vanilla-Macedonians. And after the one night consensus they got it. +MATIA ☎ 21:31, 10 November 2005 (UTC)

Evidence for separate Macedonian ethnicity can be found since the 15th century (link towards some of the sources). This is a thing that has to be a part of the text. It is enought of the anti-Macedonians nationalistic claims that Tito was the one who "invented" us.

Also, note that there are no sources before the 20th century that denies a separate Macedonian ethincity. These sources appeared when the assimilation politics from Greece, Serbia and Bulgaria took more power, at the beggining of the 20th century. And all because of teritories.

All censuses made in that time include the Macedonians as part of Bulgarians, Serbs or Greeks. If you take all sources together, it seems like one person can be Greek, Serb and Bulgarian in the same time. All in favor of satisfying some nationalistic claims from those countries towards the teritory of Macedonia. Macedonian^(talk) 08:24, 13 November 2005 (UTC)

MATIA, that one night consensus you keep on talking about qualifies as a personal attack. You're implying that it was not an honourable move, but a sneaky and dishonest one. As far as I can see Wikipedia:Naming conflict applies until a good reason is found why this case should be treated as an exception. Got any good reasons? Rex^(talk) 21:48, 10 November 2005 (UTC)

Here's a thought, why don't you make a proposal on where it should be and justify it with sources etc... Who knows, it may even be accepted. Any thoughts you have, please bring them. Rex^(talk) 21:48, 10 November 2005 (UTC)

Also, was Wikipedia:Templates_for_deletion/Log/Deleted/September_2005#Template:Macedonian_naming_dispute a one night consensus? That is how pages are moved (see WP:RM). Rex^(talk) 21:51, 10 November 2005 (UTC)

In my opinion, the best thing to do first, would be to review all possible titles and make a list of pros and cons for each one. GrandfatherJoe (talk • contribs) 22:40, 10 November 2005 (UTC)

So, the title of the article is disputed, again? --FlavrSavr 00:18, 11 November 2005 (UTC)

I think GrandfatherJoe is talking about the titles inside the text of the Macedonians (ethnic group) page. Not about the title of the page itself.

Othervise, that would be a direct support of the denials towards these people. Macedonian^(talk) 08:24, 13 November 2005 (UTC)

I was hoping that we would make progress, and start solving the other disputes, step by step, according to their complexity. Ancient history is probably the worst place to start. We should solve the more simple disputes, like the populations of ethnic Macedonians in various countries. These can be easily backed with sources, and do not require complex interpretations. So is anybody, except Macedonian and REX (who have stated their support before), interested in this approach? --FlavrSavr 01:52, 11 November 2005 (UTC)

Yeah, I am in (as you said). Just I want to know one thing: After long hours of dealing and comparing sources... how will we know that one day some Greek or Macedonian nationalist won't come and destroy everything we worked on? Macedonian^(talk) 08:24, 13 November 2005 (UTC)

Coup d'état

According to WP:RM, so helpfully linked to by User:REX: Approval voting is encouraged for page moves requested on this page. Requested moves may be implemented if there is a Wikipedia community consensus (60% or more) supporting the moving of an article after five (5) days under discussion on the talk page of the article to be moved, or earlier at the discretion of an administrator. The time for discussion may be extended if a consensus has not emerged. In that sense, the overnight page move from Macedonian Slavs was indeed a "sneaky and dishonest" coup d'état, as the last recorded support for such a move was well below the 60% required.--Theathenae 12:41, 11 November 2005 (UTC)

Would you like to have another poll? Also, I you look at Talk:Macedonian Slavs/Poll, you would see that "Macedonians" got more actual votes. Was there a consensus to keep it at Macedonian Slavs. If there was, do point it out. As I have said before, in such circumstances, Wikipedia:Naming conflict applies until you find a goot reason why this case should be treates as an exception. Why should it be an exception, Theathenae? Macedonian Slavs never got 60% support. Au contraire there has always been more support for Macedonians and at last Wikipedia policy has been implemented. Oh Joy :-) Rex^(talk) 13:06, 11 November 2005 (UTC)

You're quite right, User:REX. Macedonian Slavs never got 60% support but neither did the move here, which is why it should have stayed where it was, according to Wikipedia policy. I remind you that Wikipedia:Naming conflict is a guideline published by User:ChrisO, not official Wikipedia policy.--Theathenae 13:20, 11 November 2005 (UTC)

Which policy is that? Which policy says that it should stay where it was? If you want to know policy, read WP:V. There was no consensus for Macedonian Slavs and Macedonians plain was and is more in favour. This all comes down to sources: more sources call these people Macedonians than Macedonian Slavs and Macedonian Slavs is offensive. Or does the offensive become policy only in selective cases (Arvanites)? Again, countless reasons have been put forward why they should be called Macedonians and you couldn't give a single reason why they should be called Macedonian Slavs. Wikipedia:Naming conflict applies until a good reason is found why this case should be treated as an exception. That policy/guideline applies until a clear consensus is formed. Rex^(talk) 13:36, 11 November 2005 (UTC)

REX can you explain why the Macedonian Slav (sic) politicians and the Macedonian Slav (sic) historians (search with google the .mk domain) use that offensive term - I can't. Would you like to see editors from RoM to propose a wiki-name that won't break the disambiguation? Even Arvanites and Albanians self-identified as Macedonians around 1600, of course they weren't Mac.Slavs or Mac.Greeks. I would love to see those editors to find a name, at least for disambiguation purposes in texts were more than one Macedonian-something-people exist. +MATIA ☎ 14:55, 11 November 2005 (UTC)

Matia, the term "Macedonian Slavs" that is used by the Macedonians (ethnic group) reffers to the Slavic tribes that settled Macedonia and that latter mixed with the other people living in the area, which finaly resulted in a separate Macedonian nation. So, when this term is used, it is about people that setled here 15 centuries ago.

Seriously, this is not a good support of your position. It actually is one more reason against the term "Macedonians Slavs" beeing used for the moder Macedonians. Macedonian^(talk) 08:47, 13 November 2005 (UTC)

Can you explain why the Arvanites of Epirus and Western Macedonia call themselves Shqiptar if it is so offensive. Does the offensive card only apply in selective cases? We can name the Macedonians against their will, but not the Arvanites. Double standards? Everyone should be treated equally, and I'm sure that if you searched in the .mk domains for "Macedonian Slavs" and then for "Macedonians", the overwhelming majority of results would be for "Macedonians". Wikipedia:Naming conventions (common names). In English, these people are more commonly known as Macedonians (how else whould you explain the fact that the vast majority of encyclopaedias and sources refer to them in this way). Again, Wikipedia:Naming conventions. Also, i cannot see any reason not to apply Wikipedia:Naming conflict. I have said, that as far as I am concerned, those guidelines apply until you find a good reason for this case to be treated as an exception. Rex^(talk) 15:09, 11 November 2005 (UTC)

Kollias explained that, would you like a photo of the book? I'll send it to your talk page. Again personal attacks REX? I did with Arvanites the same thing I proposed to FlavSavr and others to do here. Are or aren't you behind the move in one night? +MATIA ☎ 15:24, 11 November 2005 (UTC)

Lie! Kollias didn't explain anything. Stop making personal attacks, it wasn't a move in one night, it had been debated on this talk page for weeks (check if you like). It's you own fault if you couldn't be bothered to participate. Why don't you tell me what you would change about the article and why? I really want to know... Rex^(talk) 16:52, 11 November 2005 (UTC)

Matia, when mediation was asked, everyone of the Greek side withdraw. So, now you have no reason to complain. If non of the other side wanted to cooperate, it is clear that they do not have how to deffend their possition in front of a cometee. Macedonian^(talk) 08:47, 13 November 2005 (UTC)

A Yahoo! search for "Macedonians", but excluding the words Greece and Bulgaria gives 362,000 results [10], whereas a search for Macedonian Slavs gives 15,900 results [11]. Therefore, as "Macedonians" is the most common name, in accordance with Wikipedia:Naming conventions (common names), "Macedonians" shall be used until MATIA and/or Theathenae can give a valid reason why "Macedonian Slavs" should be used. Rex^(talk) 17:05, 11 November 2005 (UTC)

Also, Wikipedia:Naming conflict requires the name "Macedonians" to be used. Rex^(talk) 17:10, 11 November 2005 (UTC)

Also, the vas majority of editors on this talk page think that the name "Macedonians" should be used. Rex^(talk) 17:10, 11 November 2005 (UTC)

MATIA and Theathenae have given no good reason to leave it at "Macedonian Slavs". Give us a valid reason, if you can ^{*gleeful smirk*}. Rex^(talk) 17:10, 11 November 2005 (UTC)

Theathenae might have missed the comments I posted to Ed's talk page on this question, so I'll repost them here so that they will be more visible:

Obviously I can't speak for Ed, but I agree with his action for three main reasons. First, the Wikipedia:Naming conflict policy did not exist at the time of the naming poll. With a change (or rather, a creation) of a guiding policy the poll results are effectively invalidated, as the participants were operating without any clear guidelines. Second, the issue of whether or not we follow the WP:NPOV policy is not a matter for debate or polls; it's one of Wikipedia's most fundamental policies. The naming conflict policy is merely NPOV applied to disputed names.

Third, and I'm sorry to have to say this, it was clear that many editors on both sides of the dispute - including yourself - were not interested in following the NPOV policy. The comments made in the poll and the continuing dispute since then have made that very clear. I concluded, and I'm sure Ed did too, that there was little chance of obtaining consensus from two groups of rival nationalists. If this solution was imposed, it was only because neither side wanted to compromise or follow Wikipedia's rules. That's not a situation that administrators can tolerate indefinitely. Ed and I aren't partisans in the Greek-Macedonian conflict, but we do have a responsibility to defend and where necessary enforce Wikipedia's basic policies. -- ChrisO 01:03, 10 November 2005 (UTC)

Yes, it was a matter of policy for me as well, not being a member of any of the ethnicities involved or even residing anywhere near the countries involved. By the way, I don't know why REX has become the scapegoat here, when these three links clearly show who was responsible: [12], [13], [14]. Alexander 007 18:45, 11 November 2005 (UTC)

To ChrisO: if we analyse all the comments on the poll, the renaming of this page (I've mentioned before that I don't know which name should be used, please see this) and the ongoing content-disputes on Macedonia*disambiguation pages show that we have a problem. This problem isn't yet solved. When our friend FlavSavr was disappointed by the results of the big poll (yes there was no consensus for anything, that's why I said this shouldn't be interpreted in binary: yes and no) I told him back in August that he should go for RFC and RFMed. And then I, among with others, was accused as a greek far right extremist who don't want Med. How could any greek answer at that time (early October) what he/she thinks about Med when he was already accused as an extremist? Let me point out that calling all the people who had expressed their opinion in the poll (by both sides) as nationalists doesn't solve the problem and in my opinion yes, you and the other admins are neutral. +MATIA ☎ 18:59, 11 November 2005 (UTC)

The problem is that very few of the administrators know the basics of the dispute. It is clear dispute: "present identity" versus "far history and teritory nowdays belonding to Greece which will obviously stay Greek forever". Also, the big part of the dispute is based on unjustified fear. And yes, nationalism too. From all sides. Macedonian^(talk) 08:47, 13 November 2005 (UTC)

That's a load of bull! Theathenae, Miskin, MATIA and Chronographos all rejected the idea of mediation after FlavrSavr, I and literally everyone else was begging them to accept:

• Theathenae is rejecting the idea of mediation on the grounds of a lie. It is true that Macedonians are widely known as Skopyani in Greece, but officially, they are known as Macedonian Slavs. All Greek official documents call them Macedonian Slavs. Skopyani is just a way of referring to them without using the name Macedonia and is only used unofficially.
• Miskin is rejecting the idea of mediation for the reason that he is too mighty for something like that speaking on equal terms to an underage Albanian like myself is a horrifying prospect.
• MATIA is tactfully rejecting a premature Med. What I don't understand is how is it premature. The RFC was made a month earlier!
• Chronographos is rejecting it for a reason that I haven't understood yet.

What I can't understand is why did all the Greeks try to get out of mediation. If one was of good faith and wanted to get this dispute over with, they would have accepted. The fact that they rejected the idea of mediation has prolonged this dispute and wasted everyone's time. Rex^(talk) 19:21, 11 November 2005 (UTC)

Check all my comments on FlavSavr's talk page and then remove the personal attacks from your comment here. Take care. And premature is related to my english level (i'm not a native or an advanced speaker). +MATIA ☎ 20:39, 11 November 2005 (UTC)

Matia, it is a fact that all of the Greek side refused mediation. Whatever the reason, that is not a constructive way to solve a dispute. Macedonian^(talk) 08:47, 13 November 2005 (UTC)

It's not really a personal attack, it's an inference that you no longer support the idea of mediation (if you ever did support it). OK, new start; imagine that I am going to request mediation tomorrow, would you support it, or would you oppose it like Miskin, Theathenae and Chronographos did? Rex^(talk) 20:48, 11 November 2005 (UTC)

When I have written premature Med I was trying to use the same characterization that someone (Zocky? I don't remember if it was this or another admin) had used for the big (June-July) poll. +MATIA ☎ 21:06, 11 November 2005 (UTC)

So you weren't objecting to mediation? I notice that you have cunningly avoided answering my question above. If I were to request mediation, would you support it? Rex^(talk) 23:13, 11 November 2005 (UTC)

To be fair, Chronographos did accept mediation later on. He has some house reparations to do, but he said he'd be available in mid-November. Matia, you're not being correct when you say that I was dissapointed by the results of the poll, I was dissapointed by the poll itself, right from the beginning. To remind everybody: Wikipedia:Naming conflict is a consensually adopted policy. --FlavrSavr 14:17, 12 November 2005 (UTC)

We all have things to do in our private lives, don't we? As you can see, I am posting my edits at the middle of the night. If you want something, you will find a way how to do it.

And, of course Miskin will not care much. His national identity was never into question. Mine was. Macedonian^(talk) 08:47, 13 November 2005 (UTC)

Unprotection?

Changing the subject, this article has been protected now for nearly two weeks, which is much longer than is normally allowed. Can anyone tell me if it would be OK to unprotect it now, or is this still being sorted out?

PS someone should really archive some of this talk page, its rather long to say the least. G-Man 22:02, 12 November 2005 (UTC)

You might as well unprotect it, as there's no realistic prospect of the participants in this dispute agreeing on a compromise... -- ChrisO 22:14, 12 November 2005 (UTC)

OK done it, I think your above comment could apply to anything to do with the Balkans. G-Man 22:34, 12 November 2005 (UTC)

Damn. This offends me, but I give you a complete support on this matter. No wonder many people reffer to this area as the asshole of the world. We completely deserve that "nickname". Macedonian^(talk) 08:56, 13 November 2005 (UTC)

While I agree with the above points, could anyone please explain what specific disputes are we discussing about? The Dispute cannot be solved unless we specify what is the disputed content. Is it the naming dispute? Is it the number of Macedonians in various countries? Is it a certain point in their history? Unless we specify that we would always get stuck in general forum-like discussion with no realistic prospect of the participants in this dispute agreeing on a compromise.... --FlavrSavr 23:06, 12 November 2005 --FlavrSavr 23:37, 12 November 2005 (UTC)

I also wonder what we need to discuss about? Which precise moments? Macedonian^(talk) 08:56, 13 November 2005 (UTC)

See also:Wikipedia:Talk_page_guidelines#What_may_talk_pages_be_used_for.3F., and could we please stop engaging in cheap mud throwing, again? (UTC) --FlavrSavr 23:37, 12 November 2005 (UTC)

Now, some time ago, I've proposed a step-by-step method, for this matter. I get a feeling that the naming dispute isn't solved? Fine, let's work it out, because that's by far the most important an by far the most banal dispute. Now I believe that we have a specific Wikipedia policy dealing this matter, namely the Wikipedia:Naming conflict policy, under which, it is clear that we should use "Macedonians" for this ethnic group? --FlavrSavr 23:06, 12 November 2005 (UTC)

You suggested on my talk page that I could supervise a step-by-step discussion of the issues. I think that's a useful idea - Ed Poor did something similar on Terri Schiavo some time ago. I'd certainly be interested in doing it. However, now isn't really a good time for me - my PC is going in for servicing in a few days' time and I won't have much Internet time while it's away. We could probably get the ball rolling at the start of next month.

In the meantime, I'd strongly suggest that people avoid edit and revert wars on this and related articles. It isn't helping anyone, and people on both sides of the dispute are going to earn bans if they keep communicating by reverting rather than using talk pages... -- ChrisO 00:13, 13 November 2005 (UTC)

I would be glad if you (ChrisO) supervise this. Until now, you have been quite neutral and it seems that you know enought about the topic. I am just sorry for all the time you would have to spend. I hope that it will at least result into a solution.

Also, I think we should discuss how to protect the page from future nationalistic edicts from both sides. I do not want to spend days and days of editing and my work to be destroyed by some nationalist newbie (I repeat, from any of the sides). Macedonian^(talk) 08:56, 13 November 2005 (UTC)

I think that on the two most contentious issues - the names "Macedonians" and "Republic of Macedonia" - we are probably going to have to get a binding ruling from the Arbitration Committee with an agreed set of enforcement actions. We will probably also need to have something like the big red box at the top of Talk:Gdańsk. -- ChrisO 19:19, 14 November 2005 (UTC)

I wish this could happen. It is enought with double standards.

If the Arbitration Committee is neutral, it is completely OK for me for them to include. The problem is that they should not ignore the Wikipedia policies and make exceptions just because of a claim from one or 2 nations against the 3rd nation. Especially when there is more than 100 years of similar propaganda against this nation, a propaganda launched by these 2 sides.

I just want to put a note for you, Chris. If this is happening now on Wikipedia (and everywhere else), now in the 21st century, and we (Macedonians) still can not release ourselves from all the propagandas against us, despite the fact that the separate Macedonian nation is not denied by any relevant source around the world...

Could you imagine what was happening to my ancestors, a village people occupied by the harsh Ottoman rule and denied by propaganda from 3 sides, all of whom wanted the Macedonian teritory.

Chris, I do not want to get your pitty with this. I just want you (and anyone else) to think a little on this issue. Why is Macedonia and the Macedonians so big problem for the Greeks and Bulgarians? Because their sceletons that they keep in the closets will show up? Serbia already passed that nationalistic propaganda more than 50 years ago and left it behind, in the past. The truth about their propaganda came out, but that also stayed in the past.

Why now, 50 years latter the other 2 keep doing the same as 100 or 150 years ago? Macedonian^(talk) 05:17, 19 November 2005 (UTC)

I think that we need a fair (describing not prescribing) naming policy, equilavent to others that already exist. +MATIA ☎ 19:35, 14 November 2005 (UTC)

Of course Wikipedia:Naming conflict will be taken into consideration. Naming these people against their will cannot be allowed, and any neutral person can clearly see that. Rex^(talk) 19:44, 14 November 2005 (UTC)

I would agree to accept another name as soon as the Greeks agree to change their name. Is so much nicer to be on that side MATIA. No one is denying your identity. All you do is talk about history. I am talking about present identity. Macedonian^(talk) 05:32, 19 November 2005 (UTC)

I am pleased with the article as it is. Evidently MATIA, Theathenae & co. have a problem with certain aspects of the article. What are they? Focus on issues please, what would you change in the article. Create a duplicate article if you like and we'll go through it point by point. Rex^(talk) 00:19, 13 November 2005 (UTC)

Duplicate article... that might help, as well. --FlavrSavr 02:57, 13 November 2005 (UTC)

This discussion would move a bit forward if claims of affinity ("potential" or otherwise) to Ancient Macedonia are dropped. --Simos 18:07, 14 November 2005 (UTC)

Most of the Macedonians are aware that we are not direct descendants of the Antique Macedonians. Same as the Greeks are not. But,both of us have at least partial origin from them. To be honest, I beleive that several other nations have some origin from these Antique people too.

But non of us can claim direct origin. Therefore, Wikipedia is completely right to make clear distinction between. But, a (potential) partial origin can not be denied, not even one neutral historian ever denied that. Macedonian^(talk) 05:17, 19 November 2005 (UTC)

We don't have to endorse or reject such claims, but Wikipedia's neutral point of view policy does require that we mention the existence of those claims. -- ChrisO 18:47, 14 November 2005 (UTC)

I agree. Wikipedia NPOV. That is what I am talking about. I am not very happy reading on Wikipedia that Bulgarians claim that we are brainwashed brothers of theirs. But, that claims exist and they should be ignored (as far as the text is not offensive and assimilative). Macedonian^(talk) 05:32, 19 November 2005 (UTC)

I think that we're making a mountain out of a molehill. Theathenae & co. haven't even told us what their problem is, despite regular requests for them to do so. It looks like they're never going to/ Perhaps they have no grievences and are just trying to cause trouble, oops, doesn't that sound like trolling? Rex^(talk) 18:54, 14 November 2005 (UTC)

There are some OK guys from the other side that, despite their nationalistic aproach, realise that the situation is quite different than they tought so before. But the one that you mentioned... in my oppinion he should be banned here for life. Maybe it would be safest for the whole world if he is also banned to leave his flat. I never have read so much nationalistic ignorance like the one this guy promotes. This is not a personal attack... just my oppinion. Macedonian^(talk) 05:32, 19 November 2005 (UTC)

Please tell us what you are disputing!!! Rex^(talk) 18:54, 14 November 2005 (UTC)

REX ask clarifications for our NPA parole. I don't think you should continue your statements about companies and greek nationalism (Talk:Epirus and Talk:Çamë#Disgrace).

ChrisO, I try to treat everything as pseudoscience (get dates and facts and then analyse majority and minority view). +MATIA ☎ 19:04, 14 November 2005 (UTC)

MATIA, you can not expect the history of the beggining of the 20th century to be neutral on this issue. The history was written by winners, I am sure you are aware of that. Just compare the situation the Macedonians were in during that period with the situation Greece and Bulgaria was in during that time. Look at all the support they got from the west on this issue, just in order to keep a good position against the Ottomans. Macedonian^(talk) 05:32, 19 November 2005 (UTC)

a) where are the personal attacks? Is criticising articles a personal attack? b) the NPA parole in sot in force yet, and c) why aren't you helping us reach a compromise? We are discussing here trying to solve this dispute and you are not co-operating. No wonder you rejected the idea of mediation. Rex^(talk) 19:15, 14 November 2005 (UTC)

I am the "vandalist" of this article. I want to remind you that before me there was anorther vandalism, which changed the article from Macedonian Slavs into Macedonian ethnic group. The reason i "vandalized" was a reaction of your vandalism. You cannot call for macedonian ethnicity while there are the macedonian greeks and macedonian bulgarians. I don't find a reason to be more Macedonians than the others. I remind you that wikipedia is a neutral encyclopedia and not a place for your people to make propaganda. Greeks don't accept for macedonian ethnicity. I think the previous article was fair. It was refering for Macedonians which you claim that is your ethnicity and it was in parenthesis Slavs. I think the article name must cover all the sides. Just see what even Wikipedia suggests...

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Naming_conflict#Overlapping_names

unsigned by 195.14.132.242 (talk); post left at 23:25, 18 November 2005 (UTC)

Dear "vandal". You should also understand that Wikipedia's neutrality is not based on what one nations feels like. Check the internet, check any relevant source. They all reffer to these people as Macedonians.

Talking about the Macedonian Greeks and Macedonian Bulgarians... that is a pure lie. Non of those people register themselves as something different than Greek or Bulgarian.

Should I remind you that just some 20 years ago the term "Macedonian" was completely forbiten to be used in Greece? People were sent to jainl because of that.

The "Macedonian Greeks" and "Macedonian Bulgarians" appeared in last few years, just in order to deffent your POV pushing on this issue. Not even one source mentions this thing. Why you claim something that you have no sources of?

Just to remind you... we are talking about nationality/ethnicity. No matter of anything, the nationality/ethnicity of the "Macedonian Greeks" and "Macedonian Bulgarians" will never be something different than Greek or Bulgarian. Macedonian^(talk) 05:57, 19 November 2005 (UTC)

Any potential ambiguities have been solved by naming the article Macedonians (ethnic group) and not Macedonians plain. How many ethnic groups do you know which call themselves Macedonians. In fact, I prefered Ethnic-Macedonians to be used at all times, but everyone prefered Macedonians (ethnic group). Rex^(talk) 23:30, 18 November 2005 (UTC)

Ethnic-Macedonians hides the real naming of these people and gives an impresion of re-naming. The parenteses "()" clearly show that Wikipedia is not trying to rename these people.

There is no Macedonian ethnic group but a slav macedonia ethnic group. I know only Macedonians who are residents of the Macedonian region. And even if I assume you are right, we have a disagreement. The poll decided to remain as Slavs. I REALLY PROMISE, I SWEAR, I WILL KEEP DOING WHAT I HAVE DONE IN PREVIOUS WEEKS IF YOU DON'T AGREE TO CHANGE THE ARTICLE, SORRY!!!!!! And something more; the solutions to the potential ambiguities, were solved by the Slav Macedonians between them and not with Greeks, because you think that you are alone in this Encyclopedia unsigned by 195.14.132.242 (talk); post left at 00:06, 19 November 2005 (UTC)

Wrong, the poll was a tie - there was no consensus. I want to reach a mutually acceptable compromise. We cannot call them Macedonian Slavs or Slav Macedonians because quite simply they don't identify as such. They identify as Macedonians, therefore according to the rule in Wikipedia:Naming conflict#Dealing with self-identifying terms, the article title must contain the word "Macedonians". There is a wide range of choices:

• Macedonians
• Macedonians (ethnic group)
• Macedonians (ethnicity)
• Ethnic-Macedonians
• ...

Why don't you propose something. Also, please sign your posts with four tildes ~~~~ and this will produce your ID and the date/time. I encourage you to open an account, as it then will be easier to know who you are because now you are only a number to me. Rex^(talk) 00:13, 19 November 2005 (UTC)

That is the reason why Wikipedia is so weak on this issue. Anyone can edit it. Even if we stay here for months and finaly reach an agreevement, someone else like this guy can come here (regardless of his nationality) and destroy everything we worked on. Macedonian^(talk) 05:57, 19 November 2005 (UTC)

Dear Macedonian (your ancestors became macedonians the last 100 years!!!) and Rex the Albanian. The greeks don't need your permission to be called Macedonians because they were Macedonians for thousand years, while your ancestors were in Central Asia.When Alexander the Great Greek Macedonian, did this big empire, your ancestors were uneducated and far from Europe. In Greek anyone could be called Macedonian, like anyone can be called Cretean,Rhodean, Pelloponesian, Athenian, e.t.c.. The stupid problem with that name is because persons like you, who are too nationalists, can not recognize that Macedonia is home of all its residents and anyone from there can be called Macedonian. Greek Macedonians were much earlier than you as Macedonians. As about the names that Wikipedia has for self identifying, well yes but you prefer to say only few words from those rules, and those who are good for you. Wikipedia, yes it says for self identifying, so yes there is the article Republic of Macedonian, eventhough it is FYROM. Yes, you will be described as Macedonians, but there is something more about that rule. You will be self identifying as Macedonians but there is the rule which I showed you that will be- as it was- in parenthesis to say that it is for Slavs.This will refer that by macedonian ethnicity it will refer to the slavic side. As for violations; you began first by changing the article. I am really very curious to listen with which you have agreed to be written right that and you made this isolations. with who??? The Slav Macedonians between you??? and what a choice to be fair for isolation!!!! Macedonian (ethnic group) or Ethnic Macedonian!!!! Really you are the bests for making agreements!!! Well I have just told you my warnings. I chose first to discuss it with you but really don't make me to not have any other choice to begin as i did few days ago. Because that will continue for a long. So let's find something that we both agree

Do you really think that i I became Macedonian just some 50-100 years ago, I wouldn't know about it? Or maybe that is what they teached you at your primary school?

Maybe this will get as a shock to you, but here is a link of a lists o documents that proof the existance of a separate Macedonian nation back to 15th century. Strangely, but some o those documents are Greek. It is pitty that your history book is the only source or your posts. Macedonian^(talk) 15:12, 24 November 2005 (UTC)

As I have said, about eight times; Britannica, The CIA World Factbook, The Columbia Encyclopedia, The Harvard Dictionary of Music, Philip's Encyclopedia, The Macmillan Encyclopedia, Crystal Reference Encyclopedia, Penguin Encyclopedia of Places, The Companion to British History, The Hutchinson Encyclopaedia and Ethnologue call these people "Macedonians". If you search The Council of Europe's website, The European Union's website and even the United Nation's website you will find that even they have called them "Macedonians". Therefore, given that all these reliable sources and the people in question themselves can recommend the use of the name "Macedonians", who are you to say otherwise? Please tell us what changes you want to make to the article and why. Otherwise you will simply be trolling the article and as for your threat, reverting without discussion will get you blocked - I have seen it happen. Ther title must contain the name "Macedonians" acording to Wikipedia policy as I have already explained to you. Please find sources. Also, please sign your name at the end of your post with four tildes ~~~~ as this will produce your name and the date-time. When you have come up with an acceptable and neutral proposal, please inform us. Rex^(talk) 11:33, 20 November 2005 (UTC)

As I said before your refering those sides that you like. You have now remembered about United Nations and European Union! When the Greeks were telling you about what name does UN and EU recognize your country, you were rejecting the name FYR Macedonia. Now you remembered UN and EU to say that you must be called Macedonians. As about wikipedia policy, you have just edited the part of wikipedia rules that you like; I mean the half rule. As I said, yes, your people will be called Macedonians mainly because of Wikipedia's rule, but on the other hand this article with name macedonians, according to wikipedia, will refer in parenthesis that it is for slavs. As about reverting without discussion, I remind you that you r the first one that reverted the article when it had the name Macedonian (Slav). And that without discussion. Sorry if I am wrong you had discussed it with other Slavic Macedonians. Because according to you Wikipedia is for Slav Macedonians! User talk:KRBN

No. of Macedonians in Greece

Unknown... Yeah... In today's time of high technologies and Space travels, the Greeks can't count down the number of Macedonians in their own country. Bomac 15:32, 16 November 2005 (UTC) Can't even fix a cup of tea... :-)

They can, they are just choosing not to. That way they pretend that Greece is an ethnically homogenous society with no ethnic minorities, only one minority of Muslim Greeks. Talk about living in denial... Rex^(talk) 15:35, 16 November 2005 (UTC)

It is not just about the Macedonians in Greece. What about the enormous Albanian population? What about the Roma?

Should I start with 1000s of reports of any relevant human rights organization that criticised Greece for its treatment of minorities:

Should I mention the European court for human rights and their judgement against Greece for represion against the members of Rainbow, the Macedonian party in Greece?

Why is the world playing blind on these issue?

Greece would never get in European Union without those powerful sponsors. The human rights is important issue anywhere in the world. But, not Greece. Macedonian^(talk) 05:38, 19 November 2005 (UTC)

^^ the albanian population is for the vast part illegal and therefore should not be counted. and how exaclty is Greece repressing the rainbow party by allowing it to compete in elections rather than smothering it as is the case with the Greek minority in FYROM and Albania

== 1944 secretary of state assertion that the yugoslav post ww2 proposal of a "Macedonian " Fatherland, conscience and ethnicity had no political or historical reality ==

this has been added

This document sent out by the Secretary of State in 1944 contends that before Tito and Yugoslav partisan claims were put forward to do with a Macedonian fatherland, there existed no political or historical reality before hand which constituted a "Macedonian" fatherland, conscience or ethnicity

U.S STATE DEPARTMENT Foreign Relations Vol. VIII Washington D.C. Circular Airgram (868.014/26 Dec. 1944)

The Secretary of State to Certain Diplomatic and Consular Officers*

The following is for your information and general guidance, but not for any positive action at this time.

The Department has noted with considerable apprehension increasing propaganda rumors and semi-official statements in favor of an autonomous Macedonia, emanating principally from Bulgaria, but also from Yugoslav Partisan and other sources, with the implication that Greek territory would be included in the projected state. "This Government considers talk of Macedonian "nation", Macedonian "Fatherland", or Macedonia "national consciousness" to be unjustified demagoguery representing no ethnic nor political reality, and sees in its present revival a possible cloak for aggressive intentions against Greece".

The approved policy of this Government is to oppose any revival of the Macedonian issue as related to Greece. The Greek section of Macedonia is largely inhabited by Greeks, and the Greek people are almost unanimously opposed to the creation of a Macedonian state. Allegations of serious Greek participation in any such agitation can be assumed to be false. This Government would regard as responsible any Government or group of Governments tolerating or encouraging menacing or aggressive acts of "Macedonian Forces" against Greece.

The Department would appreciate any information pertinent to this subject which may come to your attention.

Secretary of State

paragraphs that disappeared

I've restored some, there was also a section named "Origin of the name" that disappeared too, check this. +MATIA ☎ 02:10, 27 November 2005 (UTC)

I've reverted the last edits by 203.63.57.218 (talk · contribs) - see here for the changes. Perhaps few of that editor's lines could be usable, so I leave this note. +MATIA ☎ 11:05, 29 November 2005 (UTC)

Populations of ethnic Macedonians by country

• Slovenia 3.972 (2002, Makedonci) ([15])
• Austria 13.696 (2001, Mazedonien) ([16])
• United States 42.812 (2002 estimate)([17])
• Canada 31.265 (2001)([[18]])
• Australia 81.899 (2001)([19])
• Croatia 4.270 (2001)([20])
• Germany 61.000 (2001, Mazedonier)([21])
• Albania 10.000 (Mazedonier)([22])
• Bosnia and Herzegovina 1.595 (1991, Mazedonier)([23])
• Serbia and Montenegro 25.847 (2002, Mazedonier)([24])
• New Zealand 456 (2001)([25])
• Switzerland 6.415 (2000, Macédonien)([26])
• France 2.300 (2003 est Macédonienne)([27])

--FlavrSavr 01:22, 1 December 2005 (UTC) I've gathered most of the links representing the ethnic structure of a given country from the Serbs article. I guess if nobody disputes them there, nobody would dispute their relevance here, but I'll leave them in the discussion page, if they are any complaints about their relevance. Also, I would be grateful if someone provides a link to ethnic Macedonian populations in other countries (eg. UK, Sweden etc)--FlavrSavr 01:22, 1 December 2005 (UTC)

I also propose to use the see below note for the number of Macedonians in Albania, Bulgaria, and and perhaps for Serbia and Montenegro. This would be done, because:

• The official number of ethnic Macedonians in Albania at this moment, (as it is in Greece) is unknown. The latest census didn't have a separate graph for ethnic affiliation. This has caused several protests from the Greek and other minorities (including Macedonian) in Albania. This has to be mentioned in the text, as well as the information that estimates of Macedonians in Albania, vary from 5000 to 30000, which is a significant difference.
• The official number of ethnic Macedonians in Bulgaria at this moment, is 5.071. This figure should remain in the infobox, with the see below note. It would be explained that official number of Macedonians changed dramatically in the course of the 20th century, and several other topics related to the Macedonians in Bulgaria (the both POVs, of course). --FlavrSavr 01:22, 1 December 2005 (UTC)

So, what is your comment on this, brave Wikipedians? :) --FlavrSavr 01:22, 1 December 2005 (UTC)

Sources for serb repression in 1930s?

Well? --estavisti 13:56, 1 December 2005 (UTC)