Talk:Paul McCartney

Third Opinion

As the above discussion (#Sales figures in lead section) has come to a standstill and no other editors have chimed in, I have asked for a third opinion on the issue of original research.

In the lead section of the article, the passage in question currently reads:

In 1979, Guinness World Records described McCartney as the "most successful composer and recording artist of all time", with 60 gold discs and sales of over 100 million albums and 100 million singles, and as the "most successful songwriter" in United Kingdom chart history.

I have suggested that the statement is misleading because it gives the impression that McCartney himself had achieved these feats when, in fact, they are actually mostly or wholly attributed to the Beatles. For my first reference I want to cite a newspaper article covering the event, "McCartney Cited For Successes". The article, like other widely published wire reports of the event, did not include complete details of the Guinness records mentioned. As an additional source, I am using the 1980 edition of the Guinness Book of World Records directly referred to in the newspaper article to provide more details of those records. In the 1980 Guinness book, the three entries involving McCartney are:

“Most Successful Song Writer. In terms of sales of single records, the most successful of all song writers has been Paul McCartney (formerly of the Beatles and now of Wings). Between 1962 and January 1, 1978, he wrote jointly or solo 43 songs which sold 1,000,000 or more records.” (page 235)

“Most Successful Group. The singers with the greatest sales of any group were the Beatles. The all-time Beatles sales by the end of 1978 have been estimated at 100 million singles and 100 million albums—a total unmatched by any other recording act.” (page 250)

Most Golden Discs. "Out of the 2,390 R.I.A.A. gold-record awards made to January 1, 1979, the most have gone to the Beatles with 42 (plus one with Billy Preston) as a group. Paul McCartney has an additional 16 awards both on his own and with the group Wings.” (page 251)

Based on these two references, I would like to change the passage to read:

In 1979, the Guinness Book of World Records recognised McCartney as the "most honored composer and performer in music", with 60 gold discs (43 with the Beatles, 17 with Wings) and, as a member of the Beatles, sales of over 100 million singles and 100 million albums through 1978, and as the "most successful song writer", he wrote jointly or solo 43 songs which sold one million or more records between 1962 and 1978.

The relevant passage from the source currently cited in the article, (Harry, Bill. The Paul McCartney Encyclopedia (2002) pp.388-389) reads as follows:

"The company that publishes the world's biggest selling book, The Guinness Book Of Records. To celebrate a new edition in 1979 they organised a special promotional reception at London's Les Ambassadeurs club, announcing that the event was to honour Paul. The date was Wednesday 24 October and Norris McWhirter, co-founder of the book, presented Paul with a rhodium-plated disc (at the time the metal was worth £345 an ounce). This unique metal is twice as valuable as platinum and makes a handsome award. It was announced that Paul had been honoured because he was 'The Most Successful Composer And Recording Artist Of All Time'. For the following three reasons: 1) he'd written 43 songs between 1962 and 1978 which had sold over a million copies; 2) he'd been awarded sixty gold Discs, forty-two with the Beatles, seventeen with Wings and one with Billy Preston; and 3) he'd sold more records worldwide than anyone else, his estimated record sales at that time being 100 million albums and 100 million singles. At the presentation ceremony, McWhirter commented, 'Since, in the field of recorded music, gold and platinum discs are standard presentations by recording companies, we felt we should make a fittingly superlative presentation of the first ever rhodium disc with a special label listing Paul McCartney's three achievements.'"

Incidentally, the 1980 Guinness book lists Bing Crosby as the "most successful recording artist" (page 250) and Elvis Presley for the most gold record awards to an individual with 38 (page 251).

Does the use of two sources constitute synthesis or original research or is this an acceptable use of previously published sources? Piriczki (talk) 14:32, 25 March 2014 (UTC)

• You left out the last passage of Harry, which is a quote from Guinness co-founder Norris McWhirter: "We felt we should make a fittingly superlative presentation of the first ever rhodium disk with a special label listing Paul McCartney's three achievements." Did Guinness award the Beatles with a rhodium disk? Why, or why not? Also, if 100M albums sold by 1979 accounted for only Beatles sales, then where are Macca's 1970s sales with Wings, which you've said were his best-selling years? GabeMc ^{(talk|contribs)} 15:39, 25 March 2014 (UTC)

• Also, I think that you might be misreading the passage: "most successful composer and recording artist of all time", as it seems that your issue is that Crosby or Elvis is the "most successful recording artist", but I take Guinness to mean that Macca is the "most successful recording artist" who is also a composer, not that he is a) the "most successful composer of all time", and b) the "most successful recording artist of all time". He is both at once, which neither Crosby or Elvis were. GabeMc ^{(talk|contribs)} 15:48, 25 March 2014 (UTC)

Incidentally, in the “most successful group” record for the Beatles, the 1983 edition of the Guinness book further adds:

"All four ex-Beatles sold several million further records as solo artists. Since the break-up of the Beatles in 1970, it is estimated that the most successful group in the world in terms of record sales is the Swedish foursome ABBA."

And, regarding McCartney as the "most successful song writer" it adds:

"He was the recipient in Oct 1979 in London of the first Guinness Award as the most honored composer and performer in music."

That, along with news reports of the event, such as "Tops In Composing" that quote "most honored composer and performer in music" is why I want to use that particular wording. Piriczki (talk) 17:03, 25 March 2014 (UTC)

The 2009 edition of Guinness calls Macca: "the most successful songwriter". GabeMc ^{(talk|contribs)} 17:11, 25 March 2014 (UTC)

Response to third opinion request:

Hey GabeMc and Piriczki. I saw your 3O request, and after stopping by and reading decided to jump in here. I don't think I've had the pleasure of working with either of you before, and I haven't edited the article before to the best of knowlege, either. I've read what you both are saying, and think the sources themselves are fair to use, but why can't the sentence in question be re-worked to read something akin to McCartney has been recognized as one of the highest-selling composers and performers of all time. What do you think? I understand the confusion with the statement that Piriczki is saying, but my gut reaction says that generalizing the statement and backing it up with reliable sources may address the concerns voiced by you both. The statement I've put forth can certainly be changed, as well, just trying to get the ball rolling. Either way, make sure to ping me in a reply and I'll get back ASAP. Thanks! GRUcrule (talk) 17:24, 26 March 2014 (UTC}

The problem with changing the wording is we're talking about a direct quote from Guinness editor Norris McWhirter in the source "Tops In Composing" and it is the exact wording found in the Guinnes book (see [1]). Piriczki (talk) 18:17, 26 March 2014 (UTC)

There's also Billboard magazine. Piriczki (talk) 18:26, 26 March 2014 (UTC)

And the disagreement here seems to be about those exact quote's current accuracy. Thus, changing the entire sentence to remove the direct quote and make it more general makes sense, removes the possible issues raised by GabeMc, but keeps the general sense conveyed that "Hey, Paul McCartney is notable because he's one of the best of all time." Picking quotes made over 30 years ago isn't necessary to get your point across (especially in an encyclopedic article) especially because it's an arbitrary term - he's considered "the best."

Here, I've made another draft of the block quote created above:

McCartney has been recognized as one of the highest-selling composers and performers of all time with 60 gold discs and sales of over 100 million albums and 100 million singles of his work with The Beatles and as as solo artist.

GRUcrule (talk) 18:39, 26 March 2014 (UTC)

That's looks quite good to me. GabeMc ^{(talk|contribs)} 18:47, 26 March 2014 (UTC)

That would be acceptable. The current accuracy was one issue the other was attribution to McCartney only rather than with the Beatles and solo which is now addressed. Piriczki (talk) 22:49, 26 March 2014 (UTC)

Great! I've made the edit, per support from you two. Feel free to double-check it for accuracy. Let me know if I can help again down the line! GRUcrule (talk) 15:00, 27 March 2014 (UTC)

Ringo's drumming overdubbed?

Under Ringo Starr: Peter Brown's assertion that Paul surreptitiously overdubbed Ringo's drumming is contradicted by the above Wikipedia acknowledgement that Paul played drums on the following and only the following Beatles songs: Back in the USSR, Dear Prudence (as Ringo temporarily quit the group) Martha My Dear (Paul wanted to show off that he could play all the instruments that his bandmates played), Wild Honey Pie (an experimental number), and The Ballad of John and Yoko (both Ringo and George were not available and John wants to record this song as soon as possible). Ringo was NOT overdubbed on any of those. Furthermore, the consensus of Beatle scholars, including Mark Lewisohn supports that Paul played drums on these Beatles songs and only those Beatles songs. I would suggest that Wikipedia remove the assertion made by Brown or substantiate it with supporting evidence including which Beatles songs Paul allegedly overdubbed Ringo's drumming. 107.221.229.121 (talk)

Fix non sequitur

This sentence in the Childhood section is not logical: Though the children were baptised in their mother's Roman Catholic faith, their father, a former Protestant turned agnostic, felt Catholic schools sacrificed the education of their students for the sake of their religious teachings, so he and Mary did not emphasise religion in the household.

I suggest changing it to: The boys were baptised in their mother's Roman Catholic faith but, as their Anglican-turned-agnostic father felt Catholic schools "concentrated too much upon religion and not enough on education", they did not attend Catholic schools.

The reference (#4) is OK and the quote is from Miles's book. Can someone look at this for a poor, powerless IP editor? --71.178.50.222 (talk) 17:46, 6 June 2014 (UTC)

I don't see this as much of an issue, but I think that you might have a decent point. I disagree with quoting Miles here, so I've gone with an alternate construction. GabeMc ^{(talk|contribs)} 17:00, 10 June 2014 (UTC)

No embolism mentioned in sources cited

In the Childhood section, neither source says an embolism was the cause of death of Paul's mother, just that she died the day after a mastectomy. Can someone fix? --71.178.50.222 (talk) 17:53, 6 June 2014 (UTC)

Fixed. GabeMc ^{(talk|contribs)} 19:28, 6 June 2014 (UTC)

Thanks, Gabe. --71.178.50.222 (talk) 23:38, 6 June 2014 (UTC)

Gabe, if you have time, can you also look at my suggestion in "Fix non sequitur" just above? Thanks. --71.178.50.222 (talk) 16:44, 7 June 2014 (UTC)