Talk:Raw milk

Article is overly debate-framed

I am disturbed by the increasing use of "supporters" and "opponents" as the context in which a topic is presented. The topic is "Raw Milk"; it would make sense to define what that means and to elaborate on the technical details of processing, the biological changes that arise, and the advantages and disadvantages as a product.

I urge you to present facts in a context of reasoned discussion, and to avoid debative contexts (pro/con perspective), which may cause even uncontested facts to appear as opinion, and the overall article as little more than commentary.

At a minimum the debative context, if insisted upon, should be relegated to the bottom of the article. But I really don't see the purpose in it, for the debative context is essentially antithetical to the reasoned context, a reflection of a poorly researched article in essence. --pacoit

I agree. Wikipedia is supposed provide encyclopedia entires, not debates - Lindsay

On behalf of the other active registered editors here at Wikipedia, I thank you both for your comments, and I encourage you to become more actively involved in Wikipedia. We need more people who care about the contents.

Wikipedia, by policy, is a tertiary source. Someone does research. Someone else reports on that research. We tell you what is said on the subject. As a former newspaper editor and publisher, I can assure you that there are few uncontested facts in this world, and fewer still that deserve to be uncontested.

Milk is not a simple chemical. It not varies from species to species, but breed to breed, cow to cow, and day to day. Some pasteurization heats the milk more rapidly than others, some raises it to different temperatures, some holds it at the elevated temperature longer than others, and some processes chill it more rapidly than others. There is different homogenization equipment, and different operator techniques. Anyone who claims to know everything that happens when you pasteurize and homogenize milk is deluded.

And it's not just knowing what happens. It's knowing what the consequences are. Is the milk consumed 2 days later? Is it consumed 6 days later? Does it spend 20 minutes in the trunk of a car 20F weather, or 2 hours in that same trunk when it's 101F outside? Is it a beverage consumed with oreos, or is it used to make brown gravy?

Well-informed, highly-intelligent people can disagree as to whether pasteurization and homogenization are essential to a safe milk supply, or if they are antithetical to health. Editors working on this article fall into both groups - but for the most part, they concur with everything said in the article.

Although not stated as a policy, it's an underlying principle that the truth will out. We give the user the benefit of verifiable facts, presented from a neutral point of view. Fox News used to advertise, "We give you the facts and you decide", but at Wikipedia, that's something we actually do.

Again, I thank you for taking an interest - and encourage you to carry your involvement a step further. It's extremely difficult to write well. Collaborative writing that insists on verifiability is even more challenging. It's also tremendously rewarding, though, when you others find your contributions worthy, and they expand further on them. And as a hobby, it's a whole lot cheaper than buying a $40,000 bass boat.... ClairSamoht 01:41, 14 April 2006 (UTC)

Well my two cents are that Wikipedia is not WikiDebatepedia, but if we can present, in a neutral point of view -- the verifiable facts -- then, as User:ClairSamoht stated, we'll let the reader decide. But what if the facts are incomplete, i.e., research suggests...? Well, then at least we can present the incomplete research in its entirety, without inferring its meaning from the research. Let the reader read it herself and come to her own conclusion. Rhetth 12:37, 7 November 2006 (UTC)

calves

The article states that proponents believe that calves fed pasteurized milk die before reaching maturity. What is the basis for this? Have there been studies done about this, or is it anecdotal experience (and if so, whose)? Or urban legend? Though I have seen this suggested elsewhere, I have never seen a documentation or evidence brought to back it up. An encyclopedia should give this, however. Hgilbert 00:29, 26 May 2006 (UTC)

Wikipedia's contents aren't meant to be encyclopedic in scope. It contains only that which others have reported elsewhere. It is an undisputed fact that proponents make that claim. The claim itself is not necessarily valid, however.

The extension service in Wisconsin recommends pasteurizing waste milk given to calves. It would be *awfully* cruel to pasteurize the milk the calf suckles, obviously. Waste milk consists of colostrum and transition milk, which should be better raw, if the raw milk arguments hold. It also includes mastitic milk, which surely ought not be fed to calves without pasteurization, and probablyu ought not be fed to them at all. Finallyu, it includes milk which is unsalable because of antibiotic content, which raw milk adherents would argue makes it chemically-unraw. You can read the Wisconsin document at http://www.wisc.edu/dysci/uwex/heifmgmt/pubs/pasteurizingwastemilk.pdf ClairSamoht 04:17, 27 May 2006 (UTC)

From the FDA ""Pasteurization will destroy some enzymes," says Barbara Ingham, Ph.D., associate professor and extension food scientist at the University of Wisconsin-Madison. "But the enzymes that are naturally present in milk are bovine enzymes. Our bodies don't use animal enzymes to help metabolize calcium and other nutrients.""

It is conceivable that the bovine enzymes destroyed are important to calves. However, the pro/con argument is written in context of health to humans. If the excerpt were in any way factual, then I could see leaving it. However it is a stray comment that has no place in a section pertaining to the health "debate" in context of humans. Nathan Forrest 01:42, 7 February 2007 (UTC)

Article cleanup

...of male patients with heart disease."2 Homogenization became widespread...

Which kind of typo is that "2"? I'm out of ideas so I won't fix it so far. saimhe 15:42, 2 July 2006 (UTC)

Good question. I thought I would ask the person who introduced it. Turns out it was me. The person who introduced it thinks it was just a stray keystoke introduced by clmusy typing. You have heard about clmusy tpyists, haven't you? That 2 has been banished to /dev/null ClairSamoht 02:27, 3 July 2006 (UTC)

Weasel words

Among other things, this article doesn't use inline citations, but I didn't feel that was enough to warrant another tag. Anyway, look at... "Some people say that pasteurized milk converts"... "some in turn link to autism"... "Proponents believe that it preserves the natural"... (which proponents)... etc. etc. ugen64 05:37, 22 July 2006 (UTC)

Wikipedia content isn't necessarily true. It is, however, verifiable. I could come through here and throw out all the claims I believe invalid, and eliminate all the weasel words on the claims I believe valid. Someone else, though, could come along twenty minutes later with opposing opinions, and throw out all the claims I make, restoring and deweaseling the claims I threw out. What benefit is there to an edit war?

If you're looking for someone who will sort out the claims, and tell you what's what, you don't want Wikipedia, you want Sylvia Browne. Raw milk is a controversial subject, and the best Wikipedia can do is to fairly present the controversy. ClairSamoht 07:00, 22 July 2006 (UTC)

I am simply saying that each claim should be accompanied by a citation - of course this is a controversial topic, which is why I think the article needs citations. ugen64 23:14, 27 July 2006 (UTC)

Questionable Reference

I was going to add this WPost article[1] from last week, but the article seems really biased even though it includes interviews with opponents of raw milk.

"If properly refrigerated, raw milk will keep 8 days, versus the 5-6 days for the much-handled pasteurized milk purchased in a supermarket." This sounds wrong. I lived on a dairy farm and none of our milk lasted eight days. Is there a source for this?

read . . "properly refrigerated"... Raw milk im buyign at the moment often lasts 10 days - sometimes 12. The longer ones have not been opened and carton been in fridge the whole time, .. no in out, no sitting on the table for an hour... (yes yes!! below!.. after that time it does go sour- as oposed to rancid, quite plesant to drink - not in coffee though, like drinking yogurt) Cilstr 17:44, 23 October 2007 (UTC)

Real Milk Shelf Life

My personal experience is that real (raw) milk, when properly refrigerated, is good for drinking 10-12 days. After that, it sours, and is still okay for cooking or baking. And although my experience is anecdotal, it is my experience, and it works for me. I know that the quality of the milk depends on many factors, perhaps the breed of cow has an impact on this? Mijari 01:47, 30 December 2006 (UTC)

^^ I second this, but would warn also that the 10-12 days is from time of milking not from the date purchased. (I have noticed some stores now carry it on the shelves.) —Preceding unsigned comment added by 68.9.59.249 (talk) 22:22, 6 October 2008 (UTC)

{{contradict}}

The "Pasteurization" section has the subsections "Views by supporters" and "Views by opponents". Without reading the contents, I'd assume that this means "supporters of pasteurization" and "opponents of pasteurization", and indeed some of the points made seem to accord with this; but then other points seem to go the other way, with it apparently meaning "supporters of raw milk" and "opponents of raw milk". All told, it's quite confusing, and comes off as self-contradictory (though I'm not sure if it's actually self-contradictory, or if it just seems that way). —Ruakh_TALK 22:28, 29 January 2007 (UTC)

Removed 'processed' from the summary.

The term 'processed' seems to carry a connotation of 'bad'. Some (like me!) consider "whole foods" to be more more nutritious than "processed foods", and so describing "raw milk" as "milk that has not been processed" seems to be biased in favor of the nutrative value of raw milk. In an attempt to eliminate that bias, I rephrased the opening sentence. — JBazuzi (talk • contribs) 06:02, 29 March 2007 (UTC)

Restructuring

Considering Talk:Raw_milk#Article_is_overly_debate-framed and the tags in the article, I restructured the article, extracting some segments in to new pages: Health effects of homogenized milk and United States raw milk debate.

There's still plenty of work to be done on each of these three pages to get them up to Wikipedia standards. Have at it! — JBazuzi (talk • contribs) 06:03, 29 March 2007 (UTC)

This not a debate only for the USA, what references can you provide to proove that? In most parts of Europe Raw Milk is widely used. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 77.103.93.207 (talk) 20:08, 26 May 2009 (UTC)

Listeria

There is an blog post (in French) about the probability that a cheese cause Listeriosis.

It may not be a reliable source but it is interesting. The blogger says that : -60% of listeriosis outbreaks are caused by pasteurized-milk cheeses -82.9% of cheeses sold in France are pasteurized-milk cheeses then, using probability theory, he concludes that Listeriosis is about 3.23 times more likely to occur with raw-milk cheese than with pasteurized-milk cheese. Arronax50 (talk) 19:48, 22 January 2008 (UTC)

Comparison of raw-milk-caused sickness to sickness due to fish/shellfish

The FDA reports that, in 2002, consuming raw milk and raw milk products caused 200 Americans to become ill in any manner [9]. In comparison, a 1999 CDC report showed that consuming undercooked fish and shellfish causes approximately 8,000 cases of Vibrio illness annually.

The above comparison is completely misleading. Talk about comparing apples to oranges. People in America consume much more fish/shellfish than they do raw milk making a simple "number" comparison useless. Its a perfect example of how people use statistics to warp the truth. (although its a lame attempt). That whole paragraph should be wiped from this entry.

Moved to talk for discussion

This information was added by the same editor to multiple articles. My concern is the last part of the statement. It uses weasel words and gives medical advise. --Ronz (talk) 02:32, 19 May 2009 (UTC)

Raw milk, with its lactose-digesting lactase enzyme and Lactobacilli bacteria intact, may allow people who suffer from lactose intolerance to give it another try.

• http://aem.asm.org/cgi/reprint/34/2/185.pdf
• de Vrese, M. et al, 2001. Probiotics- compensation for lactase insufficiency. Am J Clin Nutr 73:421S-429s

Third opinion: Agreed. "give it another try" is pushing some kind of POV, or is just weasel-y in general. Change it to something like "may allow people who suffer from lactose intolerance to drink it." — HelloAnnyong ^{(say whaaat?!)} 02:46, 19 May 2009 (UTC)

Thanks for the feedback. Without a source, I think that any advice violates WP:NOTHOWTO, especially when it is unsourced and might make people sick if followed. --Ronz (talk) 02:58, 19 May 2009 (UTC)

Other articles where this was added: --Ronz (talk) 02:54, 19 May 2009 (UTC)

• Lactose [2]
• Lactose intolerance [3]
• Milk allergy [4]
• United States raw milk debate [5]

The editor who added the material, Phil Ridley, has changed it slightly:

Raw milk, unlike pasteurized milk, has its lactose-digesting lactase enzyme and Lactobacillus bacteria intact. Raw milk may therefore be an alternative to pasteurized milk for those who have trouble digesting the lactose in pasteurized milk and suffer from lactose intolerance.

This doesn't change the need for a source that meets WP:MEDRS. --Ronz (talk) 16:11, 19 May 2009 (UTC)

I've requested that the other editors join this discussion. I'm withholding my specific comments on the latest round of changes given that I think WP:MEDRS is still the solution. --Ronz (talk) 16:43, 20 May 2009 (UTC)

I've removed the information from the other two articles in the hope that we can focus our efforts on just one article. I have updated the FDA information with a better source, using a direct quote. I've also made a request for assistance --Ronz (talk) 02:34, 21 May 2009 (UTC)

I'm not a tremendously experienced WP editor compared to Ronz, so I can't provide much guidance as to procedure, but I was concerned when I saw the content as well. The FDA is a widely-recognized and reputable organization and is making strongly-worded, explicit statements as to the harm or death on the issue and as to whether or not these statements are true. Sticking unqualified medical claims (especially on the "lactose intolerance" page) does rather seem to me to imply that this is mainstream medicine consensus. If the argument is that "may allow" is a very low bar and could thus be true...well, I agree with Ronz that that's weasel wording, and hardly the standard that any useful encyclopedia or reference work would use. My major concerns are (a) the fact that these claims could be harmful if followed, and so error on the side of safety and heavy qualification of any such statement is preferable to under-qualification and (b) I think that the text as originally written by Phil Ridley is misleading as to what current consensus is. Finally, I would suggest that perhaps WP:ADVOCACY is relevant here, particularly "Wikipedia cannot give greater prominence to an agenda than experts or reliable sources in the Real World have given it..." Mark7-2 (talk) 07:15, 21 May 2009 (UTC)

First of all, there is no consensus, that is why there is a page on the debate. Secondly, the FDA document, when referring to death, is describing its opinion about the risks of raw milk in general. It describes at the beginning that lactose intolerance IS NOT an allergy, and it does not state anywhere that raw milk will cause death in somebody who is lactose intollerant, because of their intolerance. The FDA states within the document that the only risk is discomfort. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 77.103.93.207 (talk) 23:36, 24 May 2009 (UTC)

Thanks for joining the discussion. It would be helpful if you used a Wikipedia account, though not necessary.

You've not addressed any of my concerns with your comments, so I've reverted the content. If my concerns are not clear, I'd be happy to elaborate further on any specific areas you identify. --Ronz (talk) 01:19, 25 May 2009 (UTC)

Ok, this is my first real post, so be kind. Milk doesn't contain lactase. http://www.milkfacts.info/Nutrition%20Facts/Milk%20and%20Human%20Health.htm is a great source from Cornell University. The source for the comment "Raw milk, unlike pasteurized milk, has its lactose-digesting lactase enzyme[3] and Lactobacillus bacteria[4] intact." is not even discussing this subject. It is regarding the use of certain additives to help aid the digestablility of lactose. I would make the edit on the page myself, but I think I'd likely screw it up. Emthies (talk) 05:13, 5 June 2009 (UTC)

Thanks for the help. I'm not sure I follow. Are you saying that the references do not support the information provided? --Ronz (talk) 19:20, 5 June 2009 (UTC)

It looks like the change has now been made, but yes. That reference had little to nothing to do with the claim. The reference stated if you mixed bacteria that produces lactase into milk, then the lactose will be partially broken down and easier for people to digest. It never claimed that there was lactase in raw milk, which would not be accurate.Emthies (talk) 12:56, 8 June 2009 (UTC)

Current version (5 Jun 09) for reference:

Raw milk, unlike pasteurized milk, has its lactose-digesting lactase enzyme and Lactobacillus bacteria intact, and lactase can be purchased separately, in supplement form, to help overcome lactose intolerance . However, America's Federal Food and Drugs Administration states, "Drinking raw milk will still cause uncomfortable symptoms in people who are correctly diagnosed as being lactose intolerant." .

<----Hmmm, yes, one source is from the 70s and doesn't mention lactase being present in milk. The Cornell source that Emthies helpfully provided specifically says

Another clarification that needs to be made is that fresh milk does not contain lactase. Lactase may be present in dairy products, but it comes from lactic acid bacteria that are either added specifically to milk for fermentation or through airborne or other contamination. It also should be noted that pasteurization does not affect lactose, and pasteurized milk is neither more nor less digestible, nor has a different lactose content than raw milk.

Methinks it needs removing. Bigger digger (talk) 16:43, 8 June 2009 (UTC)

I removed the entire paragraph, because we don't have a source indicating that claims of helping the symptoms of lactose intolerance are part of the debate. If we can find such a source, then the FDA statement should be added back with it. --Ronz (talk) 17:23, 8 June 2009 (UTC)

Another rewrite

medical advice deleted, references added, other articles where this was added have been removed pending discussion, please provide comments on the amended text, noting for example, that sources such as the Lancet are referenced, regarding the allergy section, note that a distinction is made between intollerance, which the FDA state causes only discomfort, and milk allergy, which is dealt with in its own wiki page, which has been linked to: — Preceding unsigned comment added by 77.103.93.207 (talk • contribs) 19:38, 26 May 2009 (UTC)

Amended text with old versions collapsed:

Raw Milk Safety

The Raw vs Pasteurized Debate places the health benefits against the disease threat. Government Agencies such as the Centers for Disease Control (CDC), the Food and Drug Administration (FDA) and numerous other worldwide regulatory agencies say that pathogens from raw milk make it unsafe to consume,. However, raw milk advocates like Weston A. Price Foundation in its "Real Milk" campaign claim that appropriate animal husbandry, and milk storage methods are sufficient to control the risk, particularly in the case of raw milk that is from a single, traceable source sold direct to the consumer. They also cite health benefits, including beneficial bacteria, enzymes and nutrients, that are destroyed by the pasteurization process.

Extended content

The Raw vs Pasteurized Debate places the health benefits against the disease threat. Although agencies such as the Centers for Disease Control (CDC), the Food and Drug Administration (FDA) and numerous other worldwide regulatory agencies say that pathogens from raw milk make it unsafe to consume, certain organizations such as the Weston A. Price Foundation in its "Real Milk" campaign say that raw milk has health benefits that are destroyed in the pasteurization process and that it can be produced hygienically..

The disease threat at present is a statistical issue and is defined in public health terms. Although Mycobacteria bovis (non-pulmonary tuberculosis) is found in raw milk, it is relatively rare in modern industrial societies. The public health issue is that tuberculosis and typhoid will always be present in raw milk, even if in statistically small amounts. These potentially disastrous pathogens in raw milk (non-pulmonary tuberculosis, typhoid, and salmonella) can be safely controlled by pasteurization, animal husbandry, and milk storage methods. The health of dairy animals can be managed by continual testing of dairy herds and careful storage of milk products. Some of the pathogens will never be eliminated from dairy herds since the pathogens are carried by common wildlife (goats, cats, dogs, pigs, buffalo, badgers, possums, deer, and bison). Thus, the public health side of the debate always returns to pasteurization, however, pasteurized milk still sickens people, and in far greater numbers than the more heavily regulated raw product

Extended content

The disease threat at present is a statistical issue and is defined in public health terms. Although Mycobacteria bovis (non-pulmonary tuberculosis) is found in raw milk, it is relatively rare in modern industrial societies. The public health issue is that tuberculosis and typhoid will always be present in raw milk, even if in statistically small amounts. These potentially disastrous pathogens in raw milk (non-pulmonary tuberculosis, typhoid, and salmonella) can be safely controlled by pasteurization, animal husbandry, and milk storage methods. The health of dairy animals can be managed by continual testing of dairy herds and careful storage of milk products. Some of the pathogens will never be eliminated from dairy herds since the pathogens are carried by common wildlife (goats, cats, dogs, pigs, buffalo, badgers, possums, deer, and bison). Thus, the public health side of the debate always returns to pasteurization.

In 2008 scientists noticed that raw milk contains more bacteria than previously thought and identified Chryseobacterium oranimense as well as C. haifense and C. bovis, but the amount found in raw milk has not been proven harmful.

Lactose Intolerance and Allergies

Lactose intolerance is the inability to metabolize lactose, a sugar found in milk and other dairy products, because the required enzyme lactase is absent in the intestinal system or its availability is lowered. Lactose intolerance is not the same as a milk allergy, says Kavita Dada, Pharm.D., a senior health promotion officer in the Food and Drug Administration's (FDA's) Division of Drug Information. "For most people with lactase deficiency, it's a discomfort". Raw milk, unlike pasteurized milk, has its lactose-digesting lactase enzyme and Lactobacillus bacteria intact. However, America's Federal Food and Drugs Administration insists, that, "Drinking raw milk will still cause uncomfortable symptoms in people who are 'correctly diagnosed' as being lactose intolerant" .

Long-term and early-life exposure to stables and raw milk induces a strong protective effect against development of asthma, hay fever, atopic sensitization rashes and allergic hypersensitivity. In a study of 14,893 children aged 5-13, consumption of raw milk was the strongest factor in reducing the risk of asthma and allergy, whether children lived on a farm or not.

Extended content

Raw milk, unlike pasteurized milk, has its lactose-digesting lactase enzyme and Lactobacillus bacteria intact, and lactase can be purchased seperately, in supplement form, to help overcome lactose intolerance . However, America's Federal Food and Drugs Administration states, "Drinking raw milk will still cause uncomfortable symptoms in people who are correctly diagnosed as being lactose intolerant." .

Worldwide

Regulation of the commercial distribution of packaged raw milk varies across the world. Some countries have complete bans, but many have partial bans that do not restrict the purchase of raw milk bought directly from the farmer. Raw milk is sometimes distributed through a cow share program, wherein the consumer owns a share in the dairy animal or the herd, and can be considered to be consuming milk from their own animal. Raw Milk is sometimes marketed for animal or pet consumption, or for other uses such as soap making, in places where sales for human consumption are prohibited. Weston A. Price Foundation provide a directory of places to purchase raw milk.

Extended content

Commercial distribution of packaged raw milk is prohibited in many countries. However, 28 US states allow sales of raw milk, and in other parts of the world, raw milk can often be bought directly from the farmer. Raw milk is sometimes distributed through a share program, wherein the consumer owns a share in the dairy animal or the herd, and can be considered to be consuming milk from their own animal.

USA

28 US states do not prohibit sales of raw milk. Most famously, in California, where it is estimated that over 100,000 people drink raw milk. Cow shares can be found, and raw milk purchased for animal consumption in many states where retail for human consumption is prohibited.

Extended content
Note: The proposed changes add the above "USA" section while retaining the "In the United States" section unchanged.

In Europe

Distribution of raw milk is illegal in Scotland and The Irish Republic. It is legal in England, Wales and Northern Ireland. "The Queen is still said to be a fan of raw milk from her Windsor Castle herd". About 200 producers sell raw, or "green top" milk direct to consumers, either at the farm, at a Farmers' market, or through a delivery service.

Extended content

Milk is typically consumed unpasteurized in rural areas of Europe, and raw milk can typically be found in small amounts at stores in large cities. Raw milk cheese is legally produced in most European countries. Distribution of raw milk is illegal in Scotland. It is legal in England, Wales and Northern Ireland, but the only registered producers are in England. About 200 producers sell raw, or "green top" milk direct to consumers, either at the farm, at a Farmers' market, or through a delivery service. The bottle must display the warning "this product has not been heat-treated and may contain organisms harmful to health", and the dairy must conform to higher hygiene standards than dairies producing only pasteurised milk.

In Canada

The sale of raw milk directly to consumers is prohibited in Canada under the Food and Drug Regulations since 1991, but cow shares can be found.

Extended content
The sale of raw milk directly to consumers is prohibited in Canada under the Food and Drug Regulations since 1991.

Section B.08.002.2 (1)

“ no person shall sell the normal lacteal secretion obtained from the mammary gland of the cow, genus Bos, or of any other animal, or sell a dairy product made with any such secretion, unless the secretion or dairy product has been pasteurized by being held at a temperature and for a period that ensure the reduction of the alkaline phosphatase activity so as to meet the tolerances specified in official method MFO-3, Determination of Phosphatase Activity in Dairy Products, dated November 30, 1981. ”

However, like the United States, Canada permits the sale of raw milk cheeses that are aged for at least 61 days.

In Japan

Raw milk is not prohibited, but the production of milk is very expensive, and currently, omoiyari is the country's only wholesaler of raw milk for consumer consumption.

Extended content
Note: This "In Japan" section is new to the article.

References

Discussion

Discussion-Raw Milk Safety

The additional information on the WP:FRINGE viewpoint of the Weston A. Price Foundation violates WP:NPOV, WP:SOAP, and the already mentioned WP:ADVOCACY.

The addition of "however, pasteurized milk still sickens people, and in far greater numbers than the more heavily regulated raw product" is not verified by the citation given, appearing to be original research. Ironically, the cited source traces the problems documented in this article to cross-contamination from raw milk. --Ronz (talk) 17:42, 27 May 2009 (UTC)

- Have you read the reference I provided? However, the comment could be toned down —Preceding unsigned comment added by Phil Ridley (talk • contribs) 06:00, 28 May 2009 (UTC)

Yes, I read the reference, hence my comment about the irony of the cross-contamination from raw milk. --Ronz (talk) 02:27, 30 May 2009 (UTC)

What is the difference between advocacy for and advocacy against? Presenting information from certain government agencies as fact and information from other sources as fringe is POV. It is from the point of view of the government agencies. It is not an uncontested non-point of view fact that groups like Weston Price are fringe groups. They are only fringe groups acording to the point of view of certain other parties. That is why it is probably best not to write this article as if it were a debate. One fact, that even states admit, is that more people want to obtain and drink raw milk. Another is that the royal family only drinks raw milk. Wales was going to regulate it but then they figured that people would just drive to England to get it. It is available on market shelves in California. Governments like to take away freedoms and give them to special intrests. The tea party was a protest of a tax break for a mega-corperation. When government gives tax breaks and regulatory prefrence to Big-AG companies like Monsanto then they are limiting our freedoms not necesarily protecting our health and safety. Ergo, their opinions are suspect. Using them are your primary source is POV.--Ryan Close (talk) 23:05, 10 May 2010 (UTC)

The difference is that one side is not advocacy, hence the repeated references to WP:FRINGE and WP:MEDRS in the discussions on this talk page. --Ronz (talk) 23:20, 10 May 2010 (UTC)

Wrong. Opponents are simultaneously advocating for their own version of the truth with their own profit to gain. Imagine the wikipedia article on chickens focusing only on the controversy between those who raise chickens the way man has raised chickens for thousands of years and those who advocate a new way where they burn off the baby chickens noses, a way that has only existed for a few decades. Which is fringe and advocacy? What if it focused entirely on the controversy about whether people can raise chickens in cities or not, labeling as "fringe" only those who, like most people in history, would like to raise their own chickens rather then let big faceless corporations do it and labeling as "un-contested fact" the rather recent innovation of omni-competent government bodies prohibiting the traditional practice. Perhaps the difference is not between “fringe” and “un-contested fact” as it is between “tradition” and “naive modernism.” Bloodletting was once an "un-contested fact" you know. Doctors who questioned its efficacy and safety were labeled "deniers." Perhaps they WERE on the fringe in those days. As those would be those who say vaccines do nothing to promote good health and may actually make people sicker.

My point is that fringe and advocacy are inherently POV usages. Those who oppose the free choices of other well informed individuals to produce, purchase, and consume raw milk are advocating for a certain world view, way of living, way of doing agriculture, respect for freedom, and trust in certain kinds authority and not others. It is advocacy and dairy boards and health departments stand to gain many benefits both tangible and intangible.

Finally, labeling an opinion as "fringe" is an ad hominim argument. It is analogous to saying Mr. A's argument for capitalism is obviously wrong because he is a bourgeoisie, or Mr. B's argument against Western medicine is invalid because of his Oedipus complex. Whatever statement we find incompatible with our own presuppositions must automatically be incorrect. We must only point out the deficiency in the man and the thought itself disappears. No need to refute the thought when the man behind the thoughts is obviously wrong from the start. The modern pre-occupation with classifying certain thoughts are automatically invalid based on presuppositions about the thinker or speaker itself presupposes it's own automatic correctness. Is this thought correct? Another person could come along and say, Freud and Marx were automatically wrong because they were men, or some other similarly foolish statement. Mr. A and Mr. B are right or wrong quite apart from whether they are registered members of a certain political party. Being a Christian or homosexual does not automatically make your arguments invalid. An insinuation of this kind is quite offensive. It is also a very unhelpful way of revealing one’s own POV.--Ryan Close (talk) 01:18, 13 May 2010 (UTC)

WP:FRINGE and WP:MEDRS apply here. Take it to WP:FTN if you disagree. --Ronz (talk) 01:21, 13 May 2010 (UTC)

From the FRINGE article: "3. Questionable science: Theories which have a substantial following, such as psychoanalysis, but which some critics allege to be pseudoscience, may contain information to that effect; however it should not be described as unambiguously pseudoscientific while a reasonable amount of academic debate still exists on this point." The point of fringe is that it is un-notable outside a small group of adherents. Because major newspapers and book publishers have written extensively about the subject in the last few years and government bodies have taken notice and some have tried to make laws for or against it's production and consumption, it is hardly un-notable or unknown outside a very small group of adherants. Based on the quotation above "pasturization" itself is a pseudoscience since it has a "substantial following" but significant debate persists. As an example, this article and multiple high profile court cases. I can bring these verifyable secondary sources to bear on this article, but there would be no need for me to do this if, as I said before, I am wrong before I start. My question to you is, "Am I wrong before I start?"--Ryan Close (talk) 01:30, 13 May 2010 (UTC)

A really good example of this kind of debate is that between advocates of breast-feeding and formula feeding. Both are advocates. Both are POV. Both sides accuse the other of pseudoscience. But is it right for the claims of breast-feeding to dominate the article on formula? Or vice-versa? This shows the absurdity of such debates.--Ryan Close (talk) 01:43, 13 May 2010 (UTC)

Discussion-Lactose Intolerance and Allergies

This is the subject of the original dispute. Why milk allergies has been introduced into this information is beyond me, as it has nothing to do with the topic. It looks like the editors are trying to downplay lactose intolerance, while again promoting undocumented, potential benefits of raw milk, and questioning the FDA. So, more of the same problems. Cherry-picking specific findings from individual research results does not help. Changing quotes to support a viewpoint, in this case placing "correctly diagnosed" in quotes is inappropriate. --Ronz (talk) 17:42, 27 May 2009 (UTC)

"It looks like the editors are trying to downplay lactose intolerance" Nonsense, I referred to the FDA's own downplaying of lactose introllerance, so was reporting the FDA's opinion, and not promoting undocumented, potential benefits of raw milk, I took a quote from an FDA document posted by the administrator who raised the complaint

" Lactose intolerance is not the same as a milk allergy, says Kavita Dada, Pharm.D., a senior health promotion officer in the Food and Drug Administration's (FDA's) Division of Drug Information. "For most people with lactase deficiency, it's a discomfort". "

"Cherry-picking specific findings from individual research results does not help." Cherry Picking is a cliche in this context, IT IS appropriate to refer to research from peer reviewed journal articles, and other people are welcome to discover contradictory research.

"Changing quotes to support a viewpoint, in this case placing "correctly diagnosed" in quotes is inappropriate." Fair point —Preceding unsigned comment added by 77.103.93.207 (talk) 19:18, 27 May 2009 (UTC)

Regarding "cherry-picking", see WP:MEDRS. Contrasting the FDA's statements with individual studies is exactly the type of cherry picking that is problematic. Adding that they "insist" only makes it worse. --Ronz (talk) 20:42, 27 May 2009 (UTC)

- I'm happy to get rid of the "insist" wording, but their assertion is unreferenced, so at the time, I considered "insist" appropriate, but there may be a softer verb. Would state, assert, content or urge be better? Or can you find evidence to back their claim? That they are an authority is not really to wikipedia standards in my opinion, particularly after US government was caught lying about things like torture and weapons of mass destruction in recent years. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Phil Ridley (talk • contribs) 05:49, 28 May 2009 (UTC)

I think we should just follow WP:MEDRS. The FDA (and all health-related groups within the US government) is required to follow evidence-based medicine. Not only do they have to document where they get their information, they must document the reliability of the information. Sadly, no organizations involved in the torture and WMD scandals are held to such standards. --Ronz (talk) 02:22, 30 May 2009 (UTC)

Discussion-Worldwide

Overall, I think this is an improvement if it actually summarizes worldwide access to raw milk correctly. Unfortunately, it's all unsourced. The addition of the information about Weston A. Price Foundation's directory is simply an advertisement, violating WP:NPOV, WP:SOAP, WP:ADVOCACY, WP:SPAM, and WP:EL. --Ronz (talk) 17:42, 27 May 2009 (UTC)

The addition of the information about Weston A Price Foundation's Directory is not an advertisement, they are a not for profit organization offering free listings that Wikipedia does not have space for, WPF thus provide good information for readers about the subject matter, eg, the worldwide provision of raw milk, it is not that they are favoured, but that they provide the best known list of producers

With your comment about worldwide provision being unsourced, well, the source is the Weston Price Foundation Direction, that is why I posted that link, all of the info about sources in other countries can be found on the Weston Price Directory, that is why it is not simply an advertisement, it is a valuable source of information —Preceding unsigned comment added by 77.103.93.207 (talk) 19:24, 27 May 2009 (UTC)

We can probably leave the info in unsourced, though it may justifiably be removed in the future without a proper source.

We don't link to lists of producers. Policies and guidelines supporting this have been provided. I see no reason offered to make an exception. --Ronz (talk) 20:30, 27 May 2009 (UTC)

--- The risk that readers may not believe this, and could delete, appears to be reason enough to add this single link. I think an exception ought to be made because Weston Price Foundation is an established reference at the beginning of the article. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Phil Ridley (talk • contribs) 05:51, 28 May 2009 (UTC)

- I would like confirmation as to whether this is acceptable, or whether the Weston Price link must be removed —Preceding unsigned comment added by 77.103.93.207 (talk) 20:09, 28 May 2009 (UTC)

There are numerous ways to get others involved. I'll try WP:THIRD --Ronz (talk) 02:25, 30 May 2009 (UTC)

Discussion-USA

If kept, this paragraph should be combined with the "In the United States" section.(talk) 20:38, 27 May 2009 (UTC)

(Agreed, there should be only one USA section, but the In The USA section ought to be at the top, rather than at the bottom, but the structure is disrupted by raw milk debate, which ought really be restrained to the discourse at the beginning of the page) — Preceding unsigned comment added by 77.103.93.207 (talk • contribs) 21:36, 28 May 2009 (UTC)

"Most famously, in California, where it is estimated that over 100,000 people drink raw milk" More advertising, WP:OR, WP:ADVOCACY, etc. --Ronz (talk) 20:38, 27 May 2009 (UTC)

(Link to California raw milk removed) — Preceding unsigned comment added by 77.103.93.207 (talk • contribs) 20:09, 28 May 2009 (UTC)

General discussion

I think in general these proposed edits are far too promotional and biased. I compromises don't come even close to following the related policies and guidelines mentioned, and no strong reason has been given for making exceptions to any of them. --Ronz (talk) 18:36, 1 June 2009 (UTC)

Third opinion

I came to this page following a request at WP:3O. I have not edited this article before and have had no previous contact with the editors involved, so am sufficiently neutral to provide a suitable opinion. I'd also like to apologise for the time you've had to wait - as a voluntary effort editors are welcome to pick and choose which third opinions they wish to give, and I have been making my way through the backlog.

An initial read through the article suggests to me two things. Firstly, a bias towards raw milk in the USA, and secondly a headlong rush in to discussing the pros and cons of raw milk v pasteurised milk. There seems to be little or no context for raw milk, what it's made up of, how it's stored, differences in taste, texture, etc with pasteurised milk, cost, etc, etc. The same point was raised earlier in the talk page, and although the impression I get is that the article has slowly improved, it still has a long way to go to present a good article with no systemic bias, using WP:Reliable sources and ensuring WP:Verifiability. This brings me to the proposed changes. These changes seem keen to further this bias, increasing the US-centric view and increasing the amount of discussion of the pro/anti raw milk debate, for which there is already WP:UNDUE weight.

I also don't believe the Weston A Price Foundation is a suitable source for claims about the safety or otherwise of raw milk. It would be useful to note it's stance, but as per Wikipedia:MEDRS, claims like this should be sourced to scientific reports, not apparent advocacy groups. I have asked for another opinion of the foundation here, it will be useful to see what they say (update: see reply). For its inclusion, I think the page would need to show that WPF was interested in promoting the consumption of raw milk. The FDA might have its biases too, but there are scientific studies to support its claims and I would expect the same for the other side of the debate.

There are also problems with the citations in the article. For example:

In 2008 scientists noticed that raw milk contains more bacteria than previously thought and identified Chryseobacterium oranimense as well as C. haifense and C. bovis, but the amount found in raw milk has not been proven harmful.^[10]

This might suggest that the cited report commented on whether these new bacteria were harmful or not. In fact the report does not, the cite should be moved to the end of "..bovis." and the rest removed as unverifiable original research. I think it might be worth re-writing this article.

I think that covers most of it, but if there are any specific areas I have missed or anyone would like comment on please point them out and I shall comment. I will keep this page on my watchlist for the next week so will spot any changes. Cheers, Bigger digger (talk) 16:37, 5 June 2009 (UTC)

Ronz asked me to comment on the inclusion of an external link in the prose of the worldwide section. WP:ELPOINTS states that external links within prose are very unusual and I don't think there is a reason to inclusde it here. Users can access the list from the WPF site or the specific raw milk site. Also, just to be clear, I think that attempts to ban sales of raw milk are ridiculous - the dangers are clearly spelled out and people should be able to make their own decision, cf tobacco and alcohol. Perhaps the conspiracy theories of agribusiness subversion are right, and the fact there's not much tax on raw milk mean governments think it's fair game. But that's irrelevant, the aim of wp is to chronicle using WP:RS and maintain a neutral point of view and that's what I'm trying to follow. Bigger digger (talk) 20:14, 5 June 2009 (UTC)

Fully protectected

Please discuss issues here on the talk page, and/or engage in WP:Dispute resolution. Cirt (talk) 05:39, 26 May 2009 (UTC)

Thanks! --Ronz (talk) 17:22, 26 May 2009 (UTC)

Legality of Raw milk distribution in England

I wish to challenge the information stating that the distribution of Raw milk to the general public is legal in England. Under the terms of food safety legislation from DEFRA, Raw unpasteurised milk is to the best of my recollection, only to be supplied to business for the making of Unpasteurised cheeses, such as Cheddars and Blue cheeses. I will locate the relevant document from DEFRA and post this as soon as possible. BarkingFish ^{Talk to me} | _{My contributions} 23:42, 11 April 2010 (UTC)