Talk:SpaceX Starship

Misspelled name

I have no idea how to successfully edit, so I'll throw this out there - the name "Michael" is misspelled "Micheal" throughout the references parts of the page 131.137.5.113 (talk) 13:38, 24 February 2024 (UTC)

 Done Stoplookin9 :) Send me a message! 15:33, 29 February 2024 (UTC)

3rd flight test feb 2024?

"SpaceX is currently planning its next Starship launch, Starship Integrated Flight Test 3 (Starship-IFT-3), for February 2024."

What is the planning in March 2024? Uwappa (talk) 10:59, 2 March 2024 (UTC)

I've changed this text to say March 2024. User3749 (talk) 11:26, 2 March 2024 (UTC)

Some sources say NET March other NET April. After successful WDR 4th March, the FAA approval will take minimum 2-3 weeks ===> April is much more likely than March — Preceding unsigned comment added by 80.146.191.212 (talk) 13:53, 4 March 2024 (UTC)

Seems like the FAA was quite speedy Fehér Zsigmond-03 (talk) 13:37, 14 March 2024 (UTC)

Starship IFT-3

I think this time we can agree that its a succes, since it did reach intended trajectory (as far as I know) Fehér Zsigmond-03 (talk) 13:38, 14 March 2024 (UTC)

Agreed. B10 loss doesn't matter, as that isn't part of ascent. Redacted II (talk) 13:47, 14 March 2024 (UTC)

Agreed too, but let's wait until we know if all objectives have been accomplished or not (re-entry etc.) just in case Cocobb8 (💬 talk • ✏️ contribs) 13:55, 14 March 2024 (UTC)

The orbital test objectives don't matter. Success v.s failure is decided between 0:00 and 8:35 for the ship, and between 0:00 and 2:42 for the booster. Redacted II (talk) 14:45, 14 March 2024 (UTC)

I belive re entry happened, but it lost control some way into it Fehér Zsigmond-03 (talk) 16:42, 14 March 2024 (UTC)

yes it did but reentery was always gonna be the hardest part fans such as I knew this since before ift1 in fact I would've been surprised if it did survive reenetry Onemarsyboi (talk) 00:14, 15 March 2024 (UTC)

While I'm glad you keep up with Starship dev, try to stay on topic. Redacted II (talk) 00:31, 15 March 2024 (UTC)

Launch itself should be considered a success as it reached orbital velocity unlike the past two flights. Landing for Super Heavy should be loss on landing and apparently re-entry was not successful. User3749 (talk) 14:46, 14 March 2024 (UTC)

Agreed for outcome: success ---> booster: loss on landing ---> ship: loss on re-entry Cocobb8 (💬 talk • ✏️ contribs) 14:54, 14 March 2024 (UTC)

I feel one should not claim that orbital velocity was achieved. From the detaile article on this test flight, you see that periapsis (lowest point of orbit) was 50 km below ground. From the article in SpacDaily, I calculated that achieved speed was about 1000 km/h below orbital speed. QthTue (talk) 07:52, 15 March 2024 (UTC)

The flight was sub-orbital CtrlDPredator (talk) 09:03, 15 March 2024 (UTC)

Let the dust settle. When more information is available from reliable sources, the outcome of the launch can be added based on the consensus. Redraiderengineer (talk) 15:00, 14 March 2024 (UTC)

https://www.cnn.com/2024/03/14/world/starship-launch-spacex-scn/index.html

https://www.cnbc.com/2024/03/14/spacex-starship-rocket-third-test-flight-launch.html

https://www.cbsnews.com/news/spacex-launch-super-heavy-starship-rocket-third-test-flight/ Redacted II (talk) 15:08, 14 March 2024 (UTC)

My suggestion is to wait on adding the outcome to the infobox per WP:RSBREAKING.

Not all of the sources listed directly support "success." According to the CNN article, "The company routinely frames failures during these early test flights as normal."

Additionally, the FAA will also oversee a mishap investigation. "A mishap occurred during the SpaceX Starship OFT-3 mission that launched from Boca Chica, Texas, on March 14." [1] Redraiderengineer (talk) 15:49, 14 March 2024 (UTC)

According to wikipedia precedent, reaching the desired orbit=success.

S28 reached the desired (not) orbit.

Therefore, success Redacted II (talk) 15:53, 14 March 2024 (UTC)

FAA announcing a mishap investigation is not relevant in this context. Plus, saying "[SpaceX] routinely frames failures ... as normal" isn't directly calling it a failure, but that source does not state in its own tone that it was a success. User3749 (talk) 15:58, 14 March 2024 (UTC)

I disagree that a mishap investigation likely involving what happened after MECO means the launch was a failure (or even a partial failure). If the FAA/other RS announces that there was a mishap during launch that opinion will change but I don't see evidence for that RN. Rainclaw7 (talk) 15:59, 14 March 2024 (UTC)

NASA has called it:

https://twitter.com/SenBillNelson/status/1768288689694642398

"Congrats to @SpaceX on a successful test flight! Starship has soared into the heavens. Together, we are making great strides through Artemis to return humanity to the Moon—then look onward to Mars." — NASA Administrator Bill Nelson

Mysterius (talk) 04:32, 15 March 2024 (UTC)

Launch success, Booster landing failure (very much like early F9), Ship lost prior to landing (precluded). Suborbital rather than TAO (since in-space maneuver which would have raised perigee did not occur).Jrcraft Yt (talk) 15:12, 14 March 2024 (UTC)

The maneuver, IIRC, would have lowered perigee.

If they said otherwise during the official livestream, then it's suborbital. Redacted II (talk) 15:28, 14 March 2024 (UTC)

At about 1:14:00 in the stream, they said the test relight would raise the perigee ("the opposite of a de-orbit burn"). At ~1:15:05 they explained that it would be at a steep trajectory and would be "coming home no matter what."

It's unclear if the resulting perigee would have been positive from the information in the stream. Foonix0 (talk) 15:45, 14 March 2024 (UTC)

According to calculations by Jonathan Mcdowell, without the engine burn, perigee is -100 (or was it -50?) km.

My objection is withdrawn. IFT-3 was (technically) suborbital Redacted II (talk) 15:46, 14 March 2024 (UTC)

I'd say partial success, as the booster completed almost all objectives. Ship failing during reentry certainly triggered a mishap investigation, so that will prevent the mission from being fully successful Stoplookin9 :) Send me a message! 15:14, 14 March 2024 (UTC)

Launch success, not full mission success :) Jrcraft Yt (talk) 15:15, 14 March 2024 (UTC)

I understand what you mean here but we are talking about the launch itself. On the page SpaceX Starship flight tests we have separate outcomes for the launch itself (the ascent phase), booster landing (everything Super Heavy does after hot staging), and spacecraft landing (everything from deorbit, reentry and landing). Landing phases are viewed separately from the launch itself. Same thing applies here. User3749 (talk) 15:49, 14 March 2024 (UTC)

Yeah exactly this Jrcraft Yt (talk) 15:52, 14 March 2024 (UTC)

I agree, and we already have the booster splashdown failure and Starship splashdown preclusion on the proper page. The infobox asks about the launch and that was a success. Rainclaw7 (talk) 15:55, 14 March 2024 (UTC)

It was a failure because did not reach the surface of the Indian Ocean intact as planned. May also take Columbia disaster as a reference: it was classified as a failure in the Space Shuttle article. 42.98.182.158 (talk) 16:05, 14 March 2024 (UTC)

Columbia lost crew. Very different.

Success for launch only means it launched successfully. Everything after SECO is irrelevant. Redacted II (talk) 16:08, 14 March 2024 (UTC)

The overall mission was not successful, but there is a distinction between mission success and launch success (which is what we are discussing here). A better comparison would be to the launch of Starliner OFT-1, which is recorded as a success even though the overall mission was a partial failure. Rainclaw7 (talk) 16:10, 14 March 2024 (UTC)

If we're keeping this consistent with other launch vehicles, I think Partial Failure would be the fairest judgment. IFT-3 was almost identically-successful as Apollo 6 (Reached [intended] orbit, failed to perform engine relight. Starship additionally did not survive reentry, which was a mission milestone). However, 2 things:

1: As other editors have mentioned, it is unclear whether Starship statistics should measure mission success (e.g. Space Shuttle) or launch success (e.g. Falcon 9). I believe it's important that we come to a consensus on this matter.

2: We should also make our judgement based on how most third-party sources are describing the flight. Wikipedia is meant to follow what sources say, not advocate for its own positions (WP:PODIUM) Gojet-64 (talk) 17:33, 14 March 2024 (UTC)

Agreed now that I think of it, we have to follow what reliable sources say, let's wait a day or two to see Cocobb8 (💬 talk • ✏️ contribs) 17:38, 14 March 2024 (UTC)

Not trying to to Bludgeon the discussion, but the RS have declared it a success:

https://www.houstonchronicle.com/opinion/outlook/article/spacex-test-launch-rocket-booster-elon-musk-moon-18986410.php (Separates IFT-3 from 2 and 1, calling the earlier flights partial successes)

https://www.washingtonpost.com/technology/2024/03/14/spacex-starship-test-flight/ (most successful yet)

https://www.nbcnews.com/science/space/spacex-starship-third-test-launch-thursday-rcna143286 (Starship launches successfully) Redacted II (talk) 17:41, 14 March 2024 (UTC)

Well, aguess so be it! Cocobb8 (💬 talk • ✏️ contribs) 17:43, 14 March 2024 (UTC)

No, as launch was flawless (0 engine failures, 0 known issues during flight).

The booster Mishap was after Stage Separation. According to established precedent (Falcon 9), this is irrelevant for success v failure.

The ship burned up on reentry, but the same precedent applies.

Furthermore, upper stages (not just reusable stages) being destroyed after SECO has never meant launch failure or partial failure. There have been multiple Delta II upper stages and Centaurs that explode in orbit after SECO.

Launch success does not require mission success. Redacted II (talk) 17:38, 14 March 2024 (UTC)

Yeah, but still, that's us making those thoughts, remember that Wikipedia is a tertiary source trying to summarize what reliable sources say Cocobb8 (💬 talk • ✏️ contribs) 17:39, 14 March 2024 (UTC)

Not to nitpick, but whats different between partial failure and partial succes? Fehér Zsigmond-03 (talk) 21:39, 14 March 2024 (UTC)

One is an official category. The other is identical, just not officially recognized Redacted II (talk) 22:35, 14 March 2024 (UTC)

Can we all agree the disputed part of this is false. The success criteria (as many of you stated before) was the targeted orbit. It did that. So by the boundaries set for 1&2 it was a success. Anything other is moving the goalposts

Entry and landing are secondary and if there was payload on the flight going to an orbit it would've been a success.

Numerous industry leaders including the NASA Administrator called this a success.

Funny how quickly the failure disputes get shut down but the moment there is a success it's disputed. If this is seriously going from clickbait headlines yall need to grow up and learn journalists don't have more knowledge or expertise than engineers

This should not be disputed because of personal gripes or ignorance JudaPoor (talk) 18:32, 14 March 2024 (UTC)

Please know that Wikipedia relies on statements from reliable sources in articles, and that gathering consensus through discussion is at the basis of decision-making in Wikipedia. Cocobb8 (💬 talk • ✏️ contribs) 18:42, 14 March 2024 (UTC)

Consensus here looks firmly as a success. That's also not what I was told before and plenty of high quality sources (NASA, SpaceX, Thomas Zurbuchen, Chris Hadfield) testify to it being a success.

Articles also don't abjectly call it a failure but simply call it's a Loss of vehicle which happened after a norminal flight. For any other vehicle this would be indisputably a success. JudaPoor (talk) 19:04, 14 March 2024 (UTC)

If success/failure is determined by the mission, as it should be, this was a failure in the technical sense. The mission was to land Starship in the Indian Ocean and Super Heavy in the Gulf, neither of which happened. On the wiki page for the Space Shuttle, under Launch History, Columbia (which burned up on reentry) was listed as a failure, and the same metrics should apply for Starship. 184.181.39.72 (talk) 21:22, 14 March 2024 (UTC)

STS-107 carried crew, which is why it was a failure.

Recovery doesn't matter for success v.s failure, according to very well established precedent with Falcon 9. Therefore, anything after 8:35 doesn't matter. And since the ship and booster had flawless ascents, there is no reason for it to be anything but success. Redacted II (talk) 21:30, 14 March 2024 (UTC)

On the Space Shuttle page, they are listing success and failure of missions, not launches. They even have a note saying they are doing things differently.

That also means they obscure an abort-to-orbit which for a launch should be a partial failure even if the mission was still successful. CtrlDPredator (talk) 23:44, 14 March 2024 (UTC)

But SHOULD it be? Thats the question. Most people are fine with counting launches, not missions. And I dount we want to start another month long dispute about that too. Fehér Zsigmond-03 (talk) 21:46, 14 March 2024 (UTC)

If so, then first Vulcan launch was also a failure, as Peregrine mission failed. Elk Salmon (talk) 11:18, 18 March 2024 (UTC)

I’m unfamiliar with the subject so I can’t provide much comment, but what precedent was established for the success criteria of Falcon 9 (Heavy)? I think this would be a good starting point to resolving the dispute. I participated in the previous RfCs involving IFT-1 and IFT-2 which resulted in excessive drama, so it’s ideal that we get this over with ASAP as to not waste contributor time. Yasslaywikia (talk) 22:35, 14 March 2024 (UTC)

Falcon 9 had several stages fail to be recovered. These failed recoveries didn't impact the wikipedia designation, establishing a precedent for what is part of launch and what isn't (in terms of success v failure).

I couldn't agree more on the goal of getting this over quickly. But at the same time, this should last about a week before being closed, to give everyone a chance to voice their opinion. Redacted II (talk) 22:42, 14 March 2024 (UTC)

I see, thank you. After reviewing the article on Falcon 9 test flights, e.g. Grasshopper, it would be ideal if the success criteria for IFT-3 et al to be assessed on the basis of each system tested from what reliable sources say. The sources I’ve searched through so far haven’t come to a conclusion on what they thought of the test flight, so I think we need to wait a little while as you say to see more reliable sources publish their opinions on the flight. However, they seem to allude to the flight being a partial success/failure, for example this article from the Guardian [link], which to me seems to be a reasonable reading of the article. However, I haven’t done an in-depth look into the subject yet, so we’ll need to compare more reliable sources to come to a proper conclusion. This is a step in the right direction though. Yasslaywikia (talk) 22:58, 14 March 2024 (UTC)

Journalists are not reliable sources. Industry leaders are. All industry leaders including the NASA administrator called this a success

Past precedent for calling successful missions successful would make this a success.

The consensus is clear JudaPoor (talk) 12:30, 15 March 2024 (UTC)

Correct me if I'm wrong, but from what I've read, it seems there's an inconsistency between prior success/failure metrics, where Falcon 9 is determined by a successful launch and the Space Shuttle it determined by a successful mission. If so, why is this the case? And shouldn't this be changed for consistency, regardless of which way it goes? 184.181.39.72 (talk) 22:58, 14 March 2024 (UTC)

If crew is lost due to a part of the vehicle (and the shuttle was a part of the vehicle), Auto-failure. After all, calling a mission a success when seven astronauts died is just wrong.

Otherwise, if the launch is successful, anything afterwards doesn't matter. Redacted II (talk) 23:18, 14 March 2024 (UTC)

"Otherwise, if the launch is successful, anything afterwards doesn't matter." Not exactly. See: Apollo 13, which is listed as a failure, and rightly so. I get your point about the crew, and that makes sense, but it just doesn't seem right to call something a success if not all mission objectives are met. 184.181.39.72 (talk) 23:33, 14 March 2024 (UTC)

Apollo 13 was a successful launch of Saturn V. The issues with the service module were unrelated to launch.

The Saturn V has one partial failure, which is actually the Apollo 6 launch. CtrlDPredator (talk) 23:41, 14 March 2024 (UTC)

Nonetheless, I think partial failure is a reasonable assessment. 184.181.39.72 (talk) 23:36, 14 March 2024 (UTC)

Loss of crew after launch doesn't automatically mean the launch was a failure. Soyuz 11 was a successful launch of the R-7, but the capsule depressurised on re-entry and the crew died.

For Columbia, the launch caused the damage preventing a safe return. CtrlDPredator (talk) 23:39, 14 March 2024 (UTC)

I would like to re-emphasis this:

"If crew is lost due to a part of the vehicle"

Soyuz 11's loss was not the fault of the rocket.

And Apollo 13 isn't listed on the Saturn V page as a failure. Redacted II (talk) 23:42, 14 March 2024 (UTC)

Ah ok, I see. 184.181.39.72 (talk) 00:01, 15 March 2024 (UTC)

Wikipedia must not lose its independence and must call things as they are. Namely - failure. Otherwise, the attitude and rhetoric of SpaceX that they have towards themselves would be adopted. To brag about themselves. 87.252.175.140 (talk) 04:24, 15 March 2024 (UTC)

We are only talking about the launch, not the full mission. The launch part is all that happens during ascent which was essentially flawless. User3749 (talk) 06:22, 15 March 2024 (UTC)

Infobox, launch lists and statistics all have an entry for the launch, not the full mission. I don't see how it could be anything than a launch success. It reached the target trajectory. Booster and ship landing failed, obviously. We use the same groups for Falcon 9: List of Falcon 9 and Falcon Heavy launches#2020. --mfb (talk) 07:29, 15 March 2024 (UTC)

This is a personal opinion and assumes bad faith. The NASA administrator, past precedent, past requirements for success and consensus is for a success

Your own bias against SpaceX or weird idea they're obsessed with themselves isn't a valid criticism or argument JudaPoor (talk) 12:28, 15 March 2024 (UTC)

Disagree. The idea that it reached its intended trajectory is from an unreliable source and should be seen only as business marketing material. I don’t think judging events as a “success” or “failure” is an encyclopaedic thing to do. 95.98.134.109 (talk) 13:01, 15 March 2024 (UTC)

"Disagree. The idea that it reached its intended trajectory is from an unreliable source and should be seen only as business marketing material"

SpaceX is a RS.

"I don’t think judging events as a “success” or “failure” is an encyclopaedic thing to do."

For test flights, I agree, but there is a VERY strong consensus that disagrees with us. Redacted II (talk) 13:23, 15 March 2024 (UTC)

SpaceX is not a reliable source because it is a dependent primary source as they own the rights to (i.e. launched and designed) the rocket. Independent secondary sources should be used to evaluate the launch success of IFT-3, not the personal opinions of editors nor information gathered from primary sources. The current preponderance of reliable sources seems to suggest that the launch was at least a partial success/failure - I’ll link some later.

A lot of people seem to be conflating mission success with launch success, which are distinct from one another. In this instance, mission success refers to the overall success of the mission, whereas launch success focuses on how successful the launch was, i.e. before orbit. The scope of the discussions should stick to the latter as that is what is supposed to be discussed at the moment. Yasslaywikia (talk) 17:34, 15 March 2024 (UTC)

I agree with you; so far it looks like the launch was a complete success, but the mission (which includes in-orbit demos, re-entry and booster comeback) was not totally Cocobb8 (💬 talk • ✏️ contribs) 17:36, 15 March 2024 (UTC)

In that case, shouldn't we declare this a "partial success"? We should declare a flight test successful based on one of two things (mission and launch success as stated above). And thus, if the launch was successful, yet the general mission wasn't, it'd be a "partial success", and we'd call a "full success" if both launch and mission went according to plan. I'd like to point to the fairly recent Peregrine Mission One, where the launch itself was flawless, and yet the mission wasn't. Thus, it was declared a "failure". That can be applied here, where relanding and keeping Starship intact were technically "objectives". See here, here, and here. Media outlets described the test as "the most successful to date", and not a wholly "success", and I think that's important to take into account. For my part, I believe we should declare it a partial success. --WellThisIsTheReaper ^Grim 19:50, 17 March 2024 (UTC)

Your confusing Launch and Mission success.

For every launch vehicle (other than shuttle, due to the vast differences from anything else) launch success means reaching the desired trajectory, and not destroying the payload. That's it. The mission failing doesn't even matter.

Nor does the booster rud, as that didn't impact S28. There is also dozens of prior failed landings that prove this.

Therefore, calling IFT-3 anything but a Success is an NPOV violation. Redacted II (talk) 23:19, 17 March 2024 (UTC)

Both Space Shuttle and Space X Starship comprise of the launch vehicle and orbiter. This is an article about Space X Starship, not about Super Heavy launch vehicle alone, and the title of the infobox is "Starship". Therefore, we should not just look at the launch vehicle regarding Success/Failure but also the orbiter, and overall mission objectives. That being said, I would say this launch is Partial Success. IlkkaP (talk) 07:06, 18 March 2024 (UTC)

How is it an NPOV violation? Also mentioning @IlkkaP, do you have independent secondary sources to verify your claims? I’m concerned that reliable sources aren’t being used to determine the successfulness of the recent launch. Yasslaywikia (talk) 08:06, 18 March 2024 (UTC)

There are no independent secondary sources at least at the moment regarding successfulness of the launch. The best primary source at the moment is https://www.spacex.com/launches/mission/?missionId=starship-flight-3 and states that "Starship successfully lifted off at 8:25 a.m. CT from Starbase in Texas and went on to accomplish several major milestones and firsts". I think that is the best available summary of the flight, and based on this would call the flight "Success (Partial)". IlkkaP (talk) 09:02, 18 March 2024 (UTC)

This is still incorrect.

Success in the Infobox only means it reached the desired trajectory, and didn't destroy the payload.

IFT-3 reached the desired trajectory, and it didn't destroy any payload.

It is therefore a 100% launch success. Redacted II (talk) 11:13, 18 March 2024 (UTC)

I'm not arguing on the basis of a "100% launch success". I'm arguing from the standpoint of both launch and mission success. In a mission, the launch is only one part of the larger goal. In this case, the "larger goal" was (and is, for that matter) to have Starship be fully reusable, and that amounts to having landed both Super Heavy and Starship successful, as that was one of their primary goals (however I do note that it has been said that "mission success" doesn't matter). Yet, most press coverage refer to the launch as the most successful to date or even "(the flight) achieved many successes", not a complete "success". Nodding my head to what @Yasslaywikia said before, we need have to reliable, independent sources to verify if this test was "truly" a success. And it seems that the general consensus in the view of the sources are: yes, the test did have many successes and was a drastic improvement over the last, but it can't "technically" be called a success. See New Scientist, CNET, Reuters, The Washington Post, CNN, The Indian Express, and I'm sure there's many, many, many more who'll same the same thing! Calling it a success is a clear WP:NPOV violation, and thus should be declared as a partial success. --WellThisIsTheReaper ^Grim 01:57, 19 March 2024 (UTC)

See the IFT-1 RfC. The crux of that decision was that the infobox information should be based on criteria consistent across (most of*) all wikipedia articles that use that infobox. What sources say is thus irrelevant to what goes in the infobox, except for the extent to which they support or refute editors' consensus chosen infobox criteria.

The wider consensus for launch vehicles on wikipedia seems to be that anything that does not impact delivery of the payload to its intended trajectory is not a failure of the launch.*

Given that reuse operations (re-entry, booster landings, etc) is primarily an economic concern, does not affect the ability to accomplish a mission, and is not even possible for the vast majority of launch vehicles, the consensus for those vehicles is to track them separately from launch success. (I suppose this may chance in the future if reuse becomes the norm, or some other situation arises such as carrying payload down from orbit.)

So as I see it, the choices per policy are:

• Classify as success, because information from sources indicate it meets the infobox criteria for success. There is just not much room inside wikipedia policy to argue otherwise. If had had a payload, that payload would have gone where it was supposed to go.
• Lobby to change the infobox criteria across wikipedia, which may cause other unrelated launches to be marked as failure. Not likely to happen.
• Lobby to overturn the prior RfCs for this article and define new infobox criteria or just delete the darn thing. People have repeatedly been threatened to be (and sometimes have been) reported for disruption when attempting to do this.

(* There is an exception for the Space Shuttle explained elsewhere in this discussion.) Foonix0 (talk) 06:10, 19 March 2024 (UTC)

In all fairness, I think that everyone’s coming to a consensus on this to call it a success of varying degrees, but I’m indifferent to what’s selected in the end, as long as the article declares the launch at least a partial success.

As for the launch success criteria, I think that this should be augmented with the opinions of reliable sources if possible. IFT-1 was a standout case as it received huge media attention and was declared to be successful. Personally, I interpreted this to be stating that IFT-1 was successful as a test of Starship’s systems, not as a launch, but others seemed to disagree with this notion. I don’t think I expressed this view at the time of the RfCs though. I also have a feeling that many editors chose to ignore all rules while voting due to the confusion.

, we shoutly to rd reflect what reliable sources should sto the best of our ability.ay Yasslaywikia (talk) 08:11, 19 March 2024 (UTC)

From where is the criteria that infobox should reflect launch successes? If it is a launch vehicle infobox, like Saturn V or Ariane 5, then it is clear that we are reporting launch successes. If it is an integrated system like Space Shuttle then we should report integrated system successes, i.e. including the payload/orbiter. In my mind it is clear that this article is about an integrated system, and partial success is best supported by the sources, including primary sources. IlkkaP (talk) 08:28, 19 March 2024 (UTC)

Prior precedent in this article makes it an infobox for the launch vehicle.

AFAIK, the ONLY reason the shuttle is different is because STS-107 shouldn't be labeled a success in the infobox. Redacted II (talk) 11:06, 19 March 2024 (UTC)

The issue is that as stated previously by many members of this forum, had the spacecraft carried a payload, it would've been lost, as the second stage didn't achieve orbital velocities due to failure to relight its engines and the fact it started tumbling uncontrollably shortly after SECO. Even if its intended trajectory could be achieved without re-lighting the engines, it failed to demonstrate the use of the system as a whole, including re-usability. Which is critical for every and all missions involving Starship, given that both Super Heavy and Starship have to fly at least 16 times successfully with full re-usability in order to complete the Artemis 3 mission. The major difference between IFT-2 and IFT-3 is that Starship wasn't lost shortly after booster separation. Despite this, the second stage Starship still failed to demonstrate its reliability.

It is true that IFT-3 was more successful than the previous two flights, but it cannot be called a full success by any stretch. As the example I gave involving the Delta IV heavy, if the same criteria was to be used, a partial failure should be assigned to the flight test as a whole, or have separate criteria for integrated systems and phases of flight. Silviyssa (talk) 00:10, 20 March 2024 (UTC)

"as the second stage didn't achieve orbital velocities due to failure to relight its engines"

Not true. The relight test was to simulate performance required for a deorbit burn. The test was set up specifically to be unable to put the vehicle into orbit.

"Even if its intended trajectory could be achieved without re-lighting the engines,"

It actually was. The second stage burn achieved the intended trajectory for the coast phase.

"it failed to demonstrate the use of the system as a whole, including re-usability."

Re-usability doesn't matter for the sake of a payload launch.

"It is true that IFT-3 was more successful than the previous two flights, but it cannot be called a full success by any stretch"

That's not what is being discussed. The concern is the success of the launch. Foonix0 (talk) 02:44, 20 March 2024 (UTC)

Moving for visibility.

"The issue is that as stated previously by many members of this forum, had the spacecraft carried a payload, it would've been lost,"

There was no payload, so that's irrelevant. Nothing after SECO matters.

"as the second stage didn't achieve orbital velocities due to failure to relight its engines and the fact it started tumbling uncontrollably shortly after SECO"

Again, nothing after SECO matters. Upper stages have literally exploded (and not from reentry) and still had the launch be a success. Furthermore, even IF the Raptor relight had happened, it still would have reentered?

Why?

Because the plan for IFT-3 post-launch testing included reentry. Saying IFT-3 failed because it didn't enter a stable orbit is as ludicrous as saying a New Shepard flight failed because it didn't enter a stable orbit.

"Even if its intended trajectory could be achieved without re-lighting the engines, it failed to demonstrate the use of the system as a whole, including re-usability."

Which doesn't matter. Reusability wasn't going to be demonstrated this flight no matter what (given the planned hard splashdown). And the booster would have been sank if it was still floating, so your point above is completely invalid.

"Which is critical for every and all missions involving Starship, given that both Super Heavy and Starship have to fly at least 16 times successfully with full re-usability in order to complete the Artemis 3 mission."

Irrelevant.

"The major difference between IFT-2 and IFT-3 is that Starship wasn't lost shortly after booster separation"

Shortly? IFT-2 almost reached the desired trajectory (off by ~2000 kph)

"Despite this, the second stage Starship still failed to demonstrate its reliability."

This is both incorrect and irrelevant.

"It is true that IFT-3 was more successful than the previous two flights, but it cannot be called a full success by any stretch."

Then why has almost every single RS called it just that?

"As the example I gave involving the Delta IV heavy, if the same criteria was to be used, a partial failure should be assigned to the flight test as a whole, or have separate criteria for integrated systems and phases of flight"

The criteria being discussed is for Launch ONLY. And that was a 100% success. Redacted II (talk) 00:22, 20 March 2024 (UTC)

Because it would be treating Starship differently than every other vehicle. Redacted II (talk) 11:12, 18 March 2024 (UTC)

From my reading of policy and trying to apply it to this context, it seems that SpaceX's statements are largely acceptable: WP:PRIMARY notes that "A primary source may be used on Wikipedia only to make straightforward, descriptive statements of facts that can be verified by any educated person with access to the primary source but without further, specialized knowledge."

WP:ABOUTSELF criteria are also met here. Simple statements like "the door closed" or "the booster was destroyed" etc are "neither unduly self-serving nor an exceptional claim(s)" and "there is no reasonable doubt as to its authenticity." There is risk that excessive use could break rule #5, but at this point in time there are just not a lot of better options for getting the at level of detail editors seem to want to include.

A given statement merely being a reliable news source does not shield it from being considered primary. From WP:PRIMARY: "For Wikipedia's purposes, breaking news stories are also considered to be primary sources." From WP:RSBREAKING: "All breaking news stories, without exception, are primary sources, and must be treated with caution."

Most of the news sources are just stating what SpaceX stated either on the live stream or on their web page at this point, so even though that publication lends SpaceX's statements significance, it's still just primary sourcing all the way down. An exception would be something like a news source that bothered to consult an actual subject matter expert that provided "thought and reflection" as per WP:SECONDARY. That did happen in the IFT1 RfC, but the consensus there was to disregard those statements and impose the editors' own standards based on their own evaluation of WP:RSBREAKING article content.

It makes sense to strive to include published quotes references and seek expert statements wherever possible. But in this context, literally nobody knows more about the launch than SpaceX its self. So, it makes sense to source their claims where appropriate, not extravagant, and not contradicted.

(Agreed about the 2nd paragraph, btw.) Foonix0 (talk) 00:19, 16 March 2024 (UTC)

If breaking news from secondary sources is a concern, then we should wait a while to see if any more information is published from reliable sources. I stand by my assertion that using SpaceX as a source of information is bad and introduces an inherent bias into the article. This is why sourcing information from independent sources is so important. While stating if the launch was successful or not is a simple statement, it is highly contentious as evidenced by the existence of this discussion, so ideally we should use secondary independent sources as our source of information for the article. Yasslaywikia (talk) 07:51, 18 March 2024 (UTC)

We have already discussed this many times. The precedent is clear: if it reaches orbit it is considered a success. This is the only way of achieving consistency with all other rockets. Most rockets are not intended to be reusable/recovered. So the recovery phase is irrelevant.

However, the best solution would be to just remove the success/failure numbers from the infobox as it lacks the required context to allow readers to understand what is happening here. We should use the body to provide complete descriptions of what happened. {{u|Gtoffoletto}}  ^talk 12:45, 16 March 2024 (UTC)

The second paragraph has been discussed many times. Unfortunately, it's not gonna happen. Redacted II (talk) 12:55, 16 March 2024 (UTC)

Speaking as someone who has been tallying such statistics in various places for more than a decade, including Wikipedia, I think one major caveat in this is that this launch has definitely proved fully the capability of Starship as a launch vehicle to orbit, in expendable mode. Everything up to SECO for all actions relevant to deploying payload in orbit has worked out as planned. And if payload deployment is counted, the payload bay door opening and closing have also been tested in full too. One may even claim the "theoretical" capability of propellant transfer for the tanker version is proven this time too.

Re-entry capability for Starship is not need for expendable payload carrying, tanker and Artemis HLS versions of Starship. Booster recovery has nothing to do with the main mission. Which leaves the cancellation of the Raptor re-start as the only asterisk, however this is not the case of "engine commanded to re-start but failed" but "software made the decision not to perform test due to vehicle roll rate". While this do have some implications on the operational/licensing ability of Starship now, it most probably would not cause a theoretical payload deployment to fail if the attitude control isn't lost right after reaching "orbit". Thus I do think this is enough to call this flight a "success" in that SpaceX probably have proven enough things to consider carrying real payloads in the next flight, or at worst 2 flights later if the next one fully flies out as planned up till re-entry. Galactic Penguin SST (talk) 13:04, 16 March 2024 (UTC)

well said. Redacted II (talk) 13:46, 16 March 2024 (UTC)

Exellent. Last flight more people were objecting the majority, but it was called failure either way. So this should be called succes for the same reason. Hope the debate is going to be over soon, since most counterarguments confuse launch succes with mission succes. Fehér Zsigmond-03 (talk) 14:22, 17 March 2024 (UTC)

Terms like "if" and "probably" have no place here. Their use does not lead to confirmation of facts. 87.252.175.140 (talk) 15:21, 17 March 2024 (UTC)

All the three flights reached some but not all mission objectives. At the moment, IFT-1 and IFT-2 are called Failures and IFT-3 Success. Undoubtedly there are sources for each flight with opposite outcomes. I would propose removing Success/Failure statistics from the IFT flights altogether (and add them to Operational flights once they begin), or at the very least call all three IFT flights the same way, either Partial Success or Partial Failure to be consistent. IlkkaP (talk) 15:31, 17 March 2024 (UTC)

That has been rejected already Redacted II (talk) 17:20, 17 March 2024 (UTC)

This idea Has been rejected too many times Fehér Zsigmond-03 (talk) 07:33, 18 March 2024 (UTC)

I have discussed this issue at length with engineers at NASA familiar with the matter, and despite official NASA media outlets classifying the launch as a "success", it was clearly a failure from any and all engineering points of view. With NASA possibly spinning it positively because of recent bad press regarding their spending and management of the Artemis program.

First of all we need to consider the fact the spacecraft itself didn't reach orbital velocities nor did it achieve a stable orbit because shortly after MECO (main engine cutoff) a persistent fuel leak was present, changing the trajectory of the Starship second stage and making it tumble at a rate that was unrecoverable. As Starship lacks any kind of reaction control system, it was unable to right the tumbling which is visible during the entire second stage of the live-stream. Because the spacecraft didn't achieve orbital velocities and because of the violent tumbling and loss of control, it ended up burning in the atmosphere, which has been wrongly classified as a "controlled reentry". Despite Starship automatically attempting to use its "wings" to stabilize itself, it failed to do so.

Had this been the second stage on any other rocket, the launch and mission would automatically be classified as a failure, due to the fact that no payload could've been deployed, or had it been deployed, it wouldn't have had a stable orbit and said payload would've burned up in the atmosphere. Just this fact alone would be enough to classify the launch and the mission as a failure, as the system/vehicle failed to demonstrate it can achieve its intended objective. In the same vain, many people seem to state we should ignore the fact the Super Heavy booster having a major failure and being unable to land in a controlled manner. I disagree with this point as well because, unlike with Falcon 9, the controlled landing of the booster is a critical part of the system as a whole. Landing the boosters successfully demonstrates the capability of the system for reuse which is completely necessary to be able to achieve its plan for the Artemis program. We must not forget that the intended purpose of Starship right now is to fulfill its NASA contract for the Artemis 3 and 4 missions. I also think the argument that the engines all lit up and worked correctly during liftoff shouldn't be taken seriously because it's an extremely low bar for such a rocket system. Rocket engines working as designed for the first phase of flight after 2 other test flights shouldn't be the parameter we use for success. Especially keeping in mind that either the engines or the piping on the second stage (Starship) failed shortly after MECO leading to a fuel leak and the engines in the booster also failed to relight correctly leading to the loss of said booster.

As stated previously, had this been any other rocket system, the criteria for "failure" would've been quite evident, but it seems because it's a SpaceX rocket, we should morph definitions and make lots of exclusions to allow ourselves to say it was a "success". To exemplify this further, let me point to the first test flight of the Delta IV heavy (ULA) on the 21st December 2004. Due to the Common Booster Core under-performing, the payloads were deployed at a lower than intended orbit. As the system demonstrated its capabilities and reached orbit successfully but the payloads were not deployed correctly, it was classified as a "Partial Failure". Starship failed to reach orbit altogether and any payloads would've been completely lost, including human occupants, due to the fact Starships lacks any abort system. If we're not able to give this leeway to other rocket companies, why should we give it to SpaceX? IFT-3 failed to demonstrate the rocket system is capable of completing its mission, and that should be all that matters. Silviyssa (talk) 22:59, 18 March 2024 (UTC)

"I have discussed this issue at length with engineers at NASA familiar with the matter, and despite official NASA media outlets classifying the launch as a "success", it was clearly a failure from any and all engineering points of view. With NASA possibly spinning it positively because of recent bad press regarding their spending and management of the Artemis program."

You have no source for any of the (already proven to be incorrect) claims have made.

"First of all we need to consider the fact the spacecraft itself didn't reach orbital velocities nor did it achieve a stable orbit because shortly after MECO (main engine cutoff) a persistent fuel leak was present, changing the trajectory of the Starship second stage and making it tumble at a rate that was unrecoverable. As Starship lacks any kind of reaction control system, it was unable to right the tumbling which is visible during the entire second stage of the live-stream. Because the spacecraft didn't achieve orbital velocities and because of the violent tumbling and loss of control, it ended up burning in the atmosphere, which has been wrongly classified as a "controlled reentry". Despite Starship automatically attempting to use its "wings" to stabilize itself, it failed to do so."

One, it's SECO.

Two, that doesn't matter. The trajectory was the desired one, and therefore it is a success. Period.

"Had this been the second stage on any other rocket, the launch and mission would automatically be classified as a failure, due to the fact that no payload could've been deployed, or had it been deployed, it wouldn't have had a stable orbit and said payload would've burned up in the atmosphere."

The unstable orbit was the desired orbit. If it HAD entered a stable orbit, then it actually would have been a failure, because it would have made the mission impossible.

"In the same vain, many people seem to state we should ignore the fact the Super Heavy booster having a major failure and being unable to land in a controlled manner. I disagree with this point as well because, unlike with Falcon 9, the controlled landing of the booster is a critical part of the system as a whole."

Everything you said is wrong. It hasn't been ignored, it is irrelevant due to the precedent from Falcon 9, and for Falcon 9, landing of the booster is also a critical part of the system.

"We must not forget that the intended purpose of Starship right now is to fulfill its NASA contract for the Artemis 3 and 4 missions."

Incorrect, it's still in development.

"I also think the argument that the engines all lit up and worked correctly during liftoff shouldn't be taken seriously because it's an extremely low bar for such a rocket system."

That isn't the bar for success, and no one here is claiming that it is. If it was, then IFT-2 would have been labeled "success", and not "failure".

"To exemplify this further, let me point to the first test flight of the Delta IV heavy (ULA) on the 21st December 2004. Due to the Common Booster Core under-performing, the payloads were deployed at a lower than intended orbit. As the system demonstrated its capabilities and reached orbit successfully but the payloads were not deployed correctly, it was classified as a "Partial Failure". Starship failed to reach orbit altogether and any payloads would've been completely lost, including human occupants, due to the fact Starships lacks any abort system."

None of what you just said is in any way relevant. It entered the desired trajectory, and it is therefore a success.

"IFT-3 failed to demonstrate the rocket system is capable of completing its mission, and that should be all that matters"

That isn't the case for almost every single other rocket (the ONLY exception being the Space Shuttle, and that is probably because no one should even consider calling STS-107 a success. Redacted II (talk) 23:09, 18 March 2024 (UTC)

"that doesn't matter. The trajectory was the desired one, and therefore it is a success. Period."

You consider the uncontrolled tumbling of the second stage due to an internal failure a desired trajectory?

Even if we ignore the uncontrolled tumbling and keep only SpaceX's mission objectives in mind, we cannot call the test flight a full success because they failed to achieve various other objectives, including the re-light of a Raptor engine and the controlled reentry. There is also no evidence of the propellant transfer being successful with the exception of SpaceX itself being a source. That being said, propellant transfer between internal spacecraft tanks is something that has been previously done before. The mission should at the very least be considered a partial failure. Silviyssa (talk) 23:25, 18 March 2024 (UTC)

You consider the uncontrolled tumbling of the second stage due to an internal failure a desired trajectory?

One, we don't know why it was tumbling. Two: Yes, as does almost every single other editor.

"Even if we ignore the uncontrolled tumbling and keep only SpaceX's mission objectives in mind, we cannot call the test flight a full success because they failed to achieve various other objectives, including the re-light of a Raptor engine and the controlled reentry"

Which is enough. Only the trajectory matters.

"There is also no evidence of the propellant transfer being successful with the exception of SpaceX itself being a source"

Which gives that more backing than some of your claims. (Oh, and NASA considers it successful enough to give them 53 million for it, so your statement is also incorrect)

"That being said, propellant transfer between internal spacecraft tanks is something that has been previously done before."

That is irrelevant, and also partially incorrect. Cryogenic prop transfer has never occurred, and neither has the transfer of 10 tons of propellant.

"The mission should at the very least be considered a partial failure"

Anything other than success would violate NPOV. Redacted II (talk) 23:42, 18 March 2024 (UTC)

Hmm, was something more transferred fuel between external tank and internal tanks of space shuttle in more worst conditions. Transfer in Starship, if we have trust to Spacex for successful action, was between internal reservoirs which are inside ship corpus. This is far away from refueling another ship. 87.252.175.140 (talk) 19:45, 19 March 2024 (UTC)

Yes, but that was the test: transfer 10 tons of lox between tanks on a vehicle.

Anyways, this entire debate is just ridiculous.

Pretty much every single RS I've seen has said success (including a representative of the FAA)

The rocket reached all the requirements to be declared a success by Wikipedia: it reached the desired trajectory (and there are non-SpaceX sources for this, like NASA). Redacted II (talk) 19:54, 19 March 2024 (UTC)

Since the ship was destroyed, we'll have to take it on trust that there was some kind of transfer in the Starship. There is no way to take the tanks and look at their quantitative content. 87.252.175.140 (talk) 20:51, 19 March 2024 (UTC)

Yes, we have to trust the various Reliable Sources.

Just as with every single other space mission.

So, I don't understand why we trust every single other space company/source except SpaceX.

It just seems absurd. Redacted II (talk) 21:56, 19 March 2024 (UTC)

That is because SpaceX and Elon Musk have demonstrated to be an unreliable source for objective information, especially when money is on the line. At the moment they are the only source available for weather or not several tests during IFT-3 were successful, and NASA is using them and their data as a primary source for it as well. Silviyssa (talk) 00:18, 20 March 2024 (UTC)

So, your entire point is "SpaceX is unreliable"?

They are an extremely reliable source for everything except launch dates (I'm familiar with "Elon Time").

So, unless you have a reliable source saying SpaceX faked the data, then please stop repeating that garbage. Redacted II (talk) 00:26, 20 March 2024 (UTC)

"Which is enough. Only the trajectory matters."

If a Vulcan-Centaur carrying a payload to GEO ends up in a desired trajectory but fails to release its payload due to a late second stage electrical failure. Would you consider it a successful flight? You surely would have to right? By your own metrics. Silviyssa (talk) 00:22, 20 March 2024 (UTC)

No, however, that is irrelevant.

IFT-3 didn't carry a payload.

It's like saying a Starlink launch is a failure because any astronaut onboard would die from decompression. Redacted II (talk) 00:23, 20 March 2024 (UTC)

This is an admission of using different metrics for Starship than for other integrated systems then. Which goes against NPOV. Silviyssa (talk) 00:33, 20 March 2024 (UTC)

How?

Saying "Payload doesn't matter because there wasn't one" isn't NPOV. It's basic facts.

Saying "IFT-3 failure because payload wouldn't have made it" is like saying "That starlink launch failed because any astronaut onboard would have died" Redacted II (talk) 00:35, 20 March 2024 (UTC)

"Anything other than success would violate NPOV."

I'm not sure an editor that claims to be obsessed with Starship is a reliable arbiter of what would or would not violate NPOV 131.181.139.124 (talk) 00:35, 20 March 2024 (UTC)

1: I do pay attention to Starship, yes, but obsessed is a major exaggeration made on my user page only for comedic effect.

Also, I'm not the one whose entire editing history is trying to declare IFT-3 a failure. Redacted II (talk) 00:41, 20 March 2024 (UTC)

> First of all we need to consider the fact the spacecraft itself didn't reach orbital velocities

It did achieve its intended orbit, as described by the flight plan ahead of time.

> nor did it achieve a stable orbit because shortly after MECO (main engine cutoff) a persistent fuel leak was present, changing the trajectory of the Starship second stage

There is no source suggesting that there was a fuel leak nor is there any source suggesting that said fuel leak (if it was even present) changed the trajectory of the vehicle.

> As Starship lacks any kind of reaction control system

Starship has a reaction control system. Why it did not function is unknown and not something Wikipedians should be speculating on.

> which has been wrongly classified as a "controlled reentry".

Controlled re-entry is contrasted with uncontrolled reentry. Uncontrolled reentry is where a spacecraft is on a gradually decaying orbit and reenters without any target. Starship was on a ballistic trajectory with a narrow area of possible re-entry trajectories, by definition, it was a controlled reentry.

> Had this been the second stage on any other rocket, the launch and mission would automatically be classified as a failure, due to the fact that no payload could've been deployed, or had it been deployed, it wouldn't have had a stable orbit and said payload would've burned up in the atmosphere.

All of that is irrelevant given it was intended to be on a suborbital or a transatmospheric orbital trajectory rather than head to a stable orbit.

> I disagree with this point as well because, unlike with Falcon 9, the controlled landing of the booster is a critical part of the system as a whole.

Given that there is objective talk about using Starship as a regular disposable rocket, it is definitionally not a critical part of the system as a whole. Ergzay (talk) 07:14, 20 March 2024 (UTC)

One more data point on "successful launch" https://spacenews.com/spacex-planning-rapid-turnaround-for-next-starship-flight/

> Speaking at the Space Capitol III event by Payload March 18, Kelvin Coleman, FAA associate administrator for commercial space transportation, said he did not anticipate that investigation to turn up any major issues that could significantly delay the next launch.

> “It ended in what we call a mishap, but at the end of the day we deem it a successful launch attempt,” he said, because it resulted in no injuries or property damage. “SpaceX was able to collect a great deal of data from that launch.” Ergzay (talk) 00:40, 20 March 2024 (UTC)

Already noted above, but thanks!

I think in a few days we can end this discussion (finally) for the side of success, given that the vast majority of editors (including those whose entire edit history is declaring IFT-3 a failure) seem to be in favor of designating it a success. Redacted II (talk) 00:43, 20 March 2024 (UTC)

The FAA is not talking from an engineering standpoint, they are concerned about injuries and/or property damage. At the same time, the FAA investigations are carried out internally at SpaceX, much like in the case of Boeing. This has been the subject of controversy and suspicion of corruption due to the fact SpaceX has cleared themselves of wrongdoing several times despite being in clear violation of early FAA permits, being non-compliant and in direct violation of the Clean Water Act, and not seeking the correct building permits while creating conditions that are actively endangering the Boca Chica natural reserve which should rescind their FAA license until they are fixed. The FAA has been sued for their failure to prevent these mishaps and for continuing to grant licenses to SpaceX, due in no small part to governmental pressure and lobbying from SpaceX.

This has sparked many suspicions of corruption as well, as many FAA high ranking employees have ended up subsequently working at SpaceX. A situation not dissimilar to how Kathy Leaders, temporary NASA administrator, granted SpaceX a sole HLS contract despite their system as describe not complying with NASA requirements and after negotiating with them in secret and without the approval of her board and without any notice to other participants (Blue Origin and Dynetics). A move which is illegal and prompted Blue Origin to sue NASA. Shortly after, Kathy Leaders went on to work for SpaceX with a hefty salary. Silviyssa (talk) 03:34, 20 March 2024 (UTC)

ESGHound is an abysmally biased and WP:QUESTIONABLE source.

None of the reliable sources here suggest that SpaceX is lying about its IFT-3 claims, or even that SpaceX has a pattern of lying at all.

If there isn't an RS that at least contradicts the claims, then it's WP:OR to suggest otherwise. Foonix0 (talk) 03:59, 20 March 2024 (UTC)

Not only that but ESGHound would also count as a "blog" so would also fail WP:RSSELF Ergzay (talk) 06:40, 20 March 2024 (UTC)

@Silviyssa Kathy Lueders (not Leaders) was not a "temporary NASA administrator", nor did she by herself grant SpaceX a HLS contract, nor was it the case that Starship failed to meet NASA requirements (it simply greatly exceeded the requirements). And lest you forget, Blue Origin lost that lawsuit you mentioned exactly because it was frivolous. Wikipedia talk pages are not soapboxes for your own personal (misguided) opinions. Ergzay (talk) 06:44, 20 March 2024 (UTC)

Failure due to lack of successful mission completion for both the booster and the Starship. Even so, note that this is a high bar (but one that is consistent with IFT-1 and IFT-2). I acknowledge that there was wonderful progress and numerous significant milestones that were met in IFT-3. But blowing up 462 m above that water is not a successful booster landing, and entering the atmosphere in the wrong attitude (leading to the loss of the spacecraft) is not a successful re-entry. Had the Starship exploded on impact on the Indian Ocean as intended, that would have been a partial success (given the premature loss of the booster). I strongly call for the high bar of fully executing the flight plan for both the booster and the ship before full success can be declared. ems57fcva (talk)) (Not logged in.) 57.140.16.12 (talk) 16:28, 20 March 2024 (UTC)

"Failure due to lack of successful mission completion for both the booster and the Starship."

That is inconsistent with every single other launch vehicle. Nothing after payload separation (or SECO if there is no payload) matters.

Starship is not like every single other launch vehicle. It's mission is not over at payload separation or SECO. it is intended to land and be reusable. Even for Falcon 9, a failure to land the first stage as intended makes the mission a partial failure IMO (assuming that the rest of the rocket performed nominally). Just as the breakup of Columbia made its last mission a failure, so too is IFT-3. Or to put it another way, "Welcome to the 21st century".

I don't want to poo-poo what you claim to be the consensus opinion too much however. Consensus is a strength of Wikipedia. But I am comfortable is saying that it needs to be reconsidered in this case. 57.140.16.21 (talk) 17:48, 20 March 2024 (UTC)

"Starship is not like every single other launch vehicle."

Agreed, but there is precedent for reusable vehicles. A failed recovery doesn't impact success v.s failure. Go look at Falcon 9.

"It's mission is not over at payload separation or SECO."

And?

"it is intended to land and be reusable."

See the Falcon 9 example.

"Even for Falcon 9, a failure to land the first stage as intended makes the mission a partial failure IMO (assuming that the rest of the rocket performed nominally)."

Go look at the article again.

"Just as the breakup of Columbia made its last mission a failure, so too is IFT-3."

STS-107 was a failure due to the loss of crew. No sane person could declare seven astronauts burning up a success.

All established precedent makes IFT-3 a success. There is no reason for it to not be a success.

Anything other than success, therefore, would be an NPOV violation. Redacted II (talk) 17:55, 20 March 2024 (UTC)

The heading reads "Launch success", while I mistook its context for "Mission success". So I retract my comments on that basis. Agreed that the Ship being placed in an intended trajectory makes the launch a success. (It did not get into its intended final trajectory, but that was not a major milestone for the mission.) 57.140.32.12 (talk) 19:14, 20 March 2024 (UTC)

"Even so, note that this is a high bar (but one that is consistent with IFT-1 and IFT-2)." Incorrect, those launches required launch success, which did occur.

"But blowing up 462 m above that water is not a successful booster landing, and entering the atmosphere in the wrong attitude (leading to the loss of the spacecraft) is not a successful re-entry"

Both examples are irrelevant, and if they are deemed relevant via consensus, then every single expendable launch vehicle would have 0 successful launches.

"Had the Starship exploded on impact on the Indian Ocean as intended, that would have been a partial success (given the premature loss of the booster)"

A failed landing doesn't matter for launches. See Falcon 9 for dozens of examples.

"I strongly call for the high bar of fully executing the flight plan for both the booster and the ship before full success can be declared"

The Infobox measures launch success, not mission success. Redacted II (talk) 16:34, 20 March 2024 (UTC)

I found an issue with keeping the disputed tag:

It claims that some reliable sources counter the claim that IFT-3 was a success.

So far, that hasn't been the case. Redacted II (talk) 23:27, 20 March 2024 (UTC)

So it shouldn’t even be there or what are you trying to say? Fehér Zsigmond-03 (talk) 07:24, 21 March 2024 (UTC)

I'm concerned that it's misleading editors into thinking that there are countering reliable sources.

However, given that a consensus has basically formed, and waiting a week expires earlier today, it won't be there for very long. Redacted II (talk) 11:15, 21 March 2024 (UTC)

Alright Fehér Zsigmond-03 (talk) 13:20, 21 March 2024 (UTC)

Uh, what about the RfC below? Seems premature to remove the tag right now. Yasslaywikia (talk) 17:39, 21 March 2024 (UTC)

RfC didn't exist when I made that comment Redacted II (talk) 17:41, 21 March 2024 (UTC)

Starship orbital launch statistics

I've been working on a template that will contain Starship launch statistics, sort of similar to Template:Falcon rocket statistics. In the future (like 1 year from now), when Starship might be flying often for Artemis, it might be useful to be able to update launch counts across all the pages that need them.

The template is located here: User:Stoplookin9/SpaceX Starship Statistics

Please let me know on the template talk page if anything needs improvement or changes, or if you think the template is ready for implementation! Stoplookin9 :) Send me a message! 15:20, 14 March 2024 (UTC)

Sounds nice! Fehér Zsigmond-03 (talk) 16:46, 14 March 2024 (UTC)

Awesome! As Starship develops, it could also be helpful to categorize which flights were orbital, lunar, Martian, etc, as well as how many flights of each version (crew, cargo, Starship HLS, tanker starships, etc.) 184.181.39.72 (talk) 23:11, 14 March 2024 (UTC)

Yeah, things like mission counts for various missions like tanker, hls, crew, ect. will be added when they actually start flying. I don't want to be a bit too WP:CRYSTAL, so I'm keeping the template as trim down as possible. Stoplookin9 :) Send me a message! 15:18, 15 March 2024 (UTC)

SpaceX Starship test flights and SpaceX Starship operational flights will need separate sections

SpaceX Starship test flights and SpaceX Starship operational flights will need separate sections for their failure/success statistics. They aren't the same vehicle as they're not capable of carrying payload. I've mentioned this before but I'll mention it here again as this will need accounting for. People previously shot down the idea given that there haven't been any operational flights, but it will be a undeniable fact that these vehicles were different. Ergzay (talk) 23:44, 14 March 2024 (UTC)

This isn't necessary at the moment and I don't quite agree with the premises. ITF-2 did simulate carrying a payload in LO2 and many other test flights with payload simulators don't have their launches separated. If in the future there is a major revisional change that warrants a different categorisation, like with Falcon 9, then we can deal with it. CtrlDPredator (talk) 01:18, 15 March 2024 (UTC)

@CtrlDPredator IFT2 did not simulate carrying a payload anymore than any rocket with too much fuel is "simulating" carrying a payload. And there is no "if" given that this rocket as currently built is incapable of carrying a payload. It didn't have any location to mount them, in any of the vehicle launches. Ergzay (talk) 23:19, 15 March 2024 (UTC)

This has been brought up before, and I don't see the consensus changing. No other vehicle has been classified separately for its test launches. Other vehicles also go through changes throughout their operational life, even going as far as using totally different engines (e.g. Antares). That said (like with Antares), these prototype launches could be considered a different configuration of the same vehicle, with a breakdown of each configuration given (granted, this is difficult given that SpaceX hasn't laid out defined configurations of the vehicle) Gojet-64 (talk) 11:36, 15 March 2024 (UTC)

> No other vehicle has been classified separately for its test launches.

Because no other vehicle has done this style of development in the history of rocket development. This has even been extensively reported on by the likes of Eric Berger. Ergzay (talk) 23:20, 15 March 2024 (UTC)

Other vehicles have done destructive/iterative testing. One comparable example being the N1. That vehicle also underwent substantial changes between each launch. Blowing up unfinished products is not exactly a new thing in rocket science. In fact, it's how the earliest vehicles were all developed, dating back to the 50s. Gojet-64 (talk) 01:47, 17 March 2024 (UTC)

I've never heard N1 development being described as iterative testing. All 4 launches had satellites on board, something you only do if you're quite sure of success and they weren't dummy payloads either. So no I would not count N1 as being comparable in any way. Ergzay (talk) 07:05, 20 March 2024 (UTC)

That’s not true. Launching very cheap satellites on a test bed makes a lot of sense: low downside (the loss of cheap satellites) with high upside (an effectively free launch, given it was launching anyway).

I’d want to see a citation for the claim that they were “quite sure of success”. Timtjtim (talk) 23:35, 20 March 2024 (UTC)

I don't have such a citation, but they did launch some very important payloads (LK lander and Soyuz-LOK) on the IIRC last two launches Redacted II (talk) 23:45, 20 March 2024 (UTC)

PLEASE WAIT UNTIL V2 FLIES.

I cannot emphasis this enough.

Once v2 is flying, there is no reason to not separate the v1 and v2 launches in the infobox. But until then, the majority of editors will be against this. Redacted II (talk) 12:15, 16 March 2024 (UTC)

Agreed. WP:TOOSOON Time will fix this on its own. Let's avoid more useless discussions. {{u|Gtoffoletto}}  ^talk 12:39, 16 March 2024 (UTC)

I can settle for that. I still maintain that the page is incorrect as it is now because it misrepresents the early development vehicle as the actual launch vehicle and it's been incorrect ever since the first launch. Correcting this and correctly labeling them development launches would solve a lot of the haggling that goes on every launch and will continue to go on every launch. This is not the same type of thing that has gone on with any previous rocket in history. Ergzay (talk) 03:03, 17 March 2024 (UTC)

> the actual launch vehicle

what actual launch vehicle? Timtjtim (talk) 23:36, 20 March 2024 (UTC)

The finalized Starship design. Redacted II (talk) 23:38, 20 March 2024 (UTC)

I wasn’t aware they’d finalised the design, I thought they were still in the testing phase? Have I missed something? Timtjtim (talk) 23:41, 20 March 2024 (UTC)

They haven't finalized the design.

Which is kinda the point of the argument for separating operational and developmental launches: the current vehicle won't have all that much in common with the final design.

But it is TOO SOON to separate prototypes from operational launches, given that none have happened and most likely won't happen for a while. Redacted II (talk) 23:43, 20 March 2024 (UTC)

• I doubt that there will be a clear distinction between test and operational launches. SpaceX does not need to master landing Starship to be able to use Starship to deploy Starlink satellites. They just need to know that they have full control over Starship while in orbit to be able to safely deorbit it to deploy Starlink satellites.

It could be useful to have between "Launch outcome", "Booster landing" and "Spacecraft landing" another column for "Mission objectives". For IFT-3 it had payload door testing, propellant transfer and relighting the engine as Mission objectives and succeeded with two of them. That information would be useful to include. ChristianKl ❪✉❫ 16:35, 20 March 2024 (UTC)

"It could be useful to have between "Launch outcome", "Booster landing" and "Spacecraft landing" another column for "Mission objectives". For IFT-3 it had payload door testing, propellant transfer and relighting the engine as Mission objectives and succeeded with two of them. That information would be useful to include"

That info is for the Starship Flight Tests article. Redacted II (talk) 16:37, 20 March 2024 (UTC)

Success (invited randomly by a bot) Launch success is clearly the case. Citing RSs that confuse launch and mission are unhelpful. (OP: Please read up on posting an RFC. This one is a poster-boy for how not to.) Jojalozzo (talk) 15:55, 22 March 2024 (UTC)

RfC on IFT-3

Should the SpaceX Starship IFT-3 launch be categorized as (in alphabetical order) a failure, partial failure, or success in the infobox?
Redraiderengineer (talk) 14:30, 21 March 2024 (UTC)

@Redraiderengineer Jojalozzo (talk) 18:05, 21 March 2024 (UTC)

Partial failure

• Partial failure: Both independent, reliable sources and previous criteria support "partial failure."

Foundation

• IFT-3 intended to reach transatmospheric orbit, but the planned prograde burn did not occur.
• The launch was suborbital and did not reach a sustained orbit.
• Not all objectives were completed. Additionally, there are questions regarding the outcome of the payload door test. (This is excluding the outcome of the propellant transfer demonstration, which is pending review.)

Reliable sources

There are reliable and (importantly) independent sources that don't conclude the launch was a clear success or failure. These sources support both the success and failure of the launch (in other words, a partial failure).

• Florida Today and The Independent both describe views of success and failure of the launch.
• Reuters explains most but not all of the flight objectives were achieved. Specifically, one of the "core objectives" of the relight.
• Science (journal): "This launch, the rocket’s third full test flight, wasn’t perfect..."

Success/failure criteria

This table is a brief review of criteria from previous RfCs and the outcome of IFT-3 based on those criteria. I've included my response to the RfC on IFT-2 and responses from Redacted II – given that that they are often the most vocal participant in these discussions.

RfC	Criteria	IFT-3 Outcome
IFT-1	"Primary goal was achieved (clearing the tower). Most secondary goals were not (everything after separation). But the primary goal was completed. So labeling it at a plain "failure" is misleading." "And the company set the goals of the flight. It passed some. It failed others. Therefore, partial failure. Labeling the flight as a "failure" would be misleading"      — Redacted II	Partial failure Not all objectives were successfully completed.
IFT-2	"The infobox documentation has defined "partial failure" to allow for a consistent meaning across Wikipedia as per MoS guidelines. Unless the definition changes, the policy-based action is to determine if IFT-2 meets the current partial failure criteria predicated on reaching orbit. IFT-2 failed to reach orbit, so it doesn't meet the "partial failure" definition or standard used across other launch vehicle articles."      — Redraiderengineer	Failure
IFT-2	"There is a general criteria: Is the crew killed/payload destroyed: if yes, failure, if no... Is the final trajectory usable, if no, failure, if yes... Is the final trajectory the intended one, if yes, success, if no, partial failure."      — Redacted II	Partial failure The final trajectory was not the intended transatmospheric orbit.

Redraiderengineer (talk) 14:31, 21 March 2024 (UTC)

"IFT-3 intended to reach transatmospheric orbit, but the planned prograde burn did not occur.[1]"

Is there a source for this that isn't WP:SELFPUB? It would nice to see an RS that states this. I think McDowell qualifies as an SME, but I don't think his blog qualifies as an RS. Regardless, the blog post linked does not state that the launch was a failure.

"The launch was suborbital and did not reach a sustained orbit.[2]"

It was never meant to reach a sustained orbit. The relight test would have still resulted in an unsustainable orbit. Even if we take this source at face value, 50km perigee is definitely not a sustainable orbit. We saw heat and plasma buildup star below 100km, and large amounts of plasma at 85km before the vehicle was lost. This claim is implausible.

The argument presented from IFT-1 was rejected by consensus. "editors predominantly believe that describing a rocket launch as having succeeded or failed (or failed partially) should be done consistently across Wikipedia, and that when doing it consistently with respect to this article, the infobox should say 'failure'." That consensus also established that what sources say about "success" or "failure" is irrelevant, because "consistently across Wikipedia" is the standard.

Your argument presented from IFT-2 supports this launch was a success, as sources indicate the insertion burn reached the intended trajectory. According to SpaceX's engineer, it was "coming down no matter what." When it started re-entry, it was still on the trajectory intended if the relight test could not be performed.

Redacted's argument from IFT-2 is supported by reliable sources if applied to IFT-3. The intended trajectory was reached by the insertion burn. The relight test was intended to be an engine test and would not have significantly changed the trajectory or reentry location.

"Not all objectives were completed"

This is not material to launch success. See again the IFT-1 consensus. Foonix0 (talk) 09:54, 22 March 2024 (UTC)

• Partial failure, per your arguments above. Though the launch was definitely a full success, not all mission objectives were achieved.

Cocobb8 (💬 talk • ✏️ contribs) 15:13, 21 March 2024 (UTC)

The infobox measures launch success, not mission success.

Therefore, the success of the mission is irrelevant to this discussion. Redacted II (talk) 15:46, 21 March 2024 (UTC)

Is there a documentation that says that? Cocobb8 (💬 talk • ✏️ contribs) 16:06, 21 March 2024 (UTC)

Let's see, the list of Falcon 9 launches matches the infobox, and that article makes it very clear that launch success does not mean mission success. Redacted II (talk) 16:09, 21 March 2024 (UTC)

Furthermore, there is a note on the Space Shuttle article that states using mission success is the exception:

"In this case, the number of successes is determined by the number of successful Space Shuttle missions." Redacted II (talk) 16:34, 21 March 2024 (UTC)

@Cocobb8 Mission success is on mission pages (for example for spacecraft). Rocket pages all measure launches. Ergzay (talk) 21:00, 21 March 2024 (UTC)

this has already been settled. See their post in success Redacted II (talk) 21:00, 21 March 2024 (UTC)

Partial failure is most consistent with other vehicles on Wikipedia. I agree that Wikipedia always measures vehicle performance, not mission performance. Starship, unlike most rockets, is intended to successfully perform both orbital insertion and reentry. The only precedent in this case is the Space Shuttle, which accordingly, requires both successful ascent and reentry. It would therefore follow that Starship, being the only other vehicle intended to both perform orbital insertion and reentry, would be judged by the same standard.

Moreover, I am not convinced of the argument of "if it had a payload, it would've deployed it successfully." There are two problems here.

First: launch statistics have always judged on rocket based on whether or not it accomplished intended objectives on a given flight. Launch outcomes don't care about "ifs," what matters is what objectives it had for a particular flight, and whether it accomplished those objectives. Crucially, it reached the final intended phase of flight, distinguishing partial failure from a full failure. In my view, this provides the strongest case for partial failure, as the rocket accomplished most, but not all, objectives.

Second: The payload door did not open properly, and the vehicle lost attitude control. So even ignoring the above point, Starship would not have successfully deployed a payload due to the door failure. In reality, if this rocket had a payload, it would've been a full failure, not a partial one.

One last note: the overwhelming majority of media outlets also deemed IFT-1 to be a "success" but the consensus on Wikipedia disagreed. Gojet-64 (talk) 01:27, 22 March 2024 (UTC)

I concur with Partial Failure. During the webcast, SpaceX literally stated they were not able to complete a planned burn. You cannot list a mission as a complete success when consequential testing goals had to be skipped. – Jadebenn (talk · contribs · subpages) 04:05, 22 March 2024 (UTC)

The RFC is explicitly about the launch, not the full mission. --mfb (talk) 06:55, 22 March 2024 (UTC)

Since when? I distinctly recall that there are many spaceflight pages marked failure or partial failure due to an inability to place a payload in a desired orbit or to deploy a payload at all who nonetheless had a successful "launch." How do we even classify a "launch" versus a mission success? It seems like there is a consistent effort to lower the bar of success such that no caveats arw required to be displayed on the summary to this page. – Jadebenn (talk · contribs · subpages) 14:50, 22 March 2024 (UTC)

"I distinctly recall that there are many spaceflight pages marked failure or partial failure due to an inability to place a payload in a desired orbit or to deploy a payload at all who nonetheless had a successful "launch"

Yes, but the vehicle reached the intended trajectory (as they proceeded to attempt a stable reentry). IFT-3 didn't have a payload at all, so your examples of payload deploy don't even apply at all.

"How do we even classify a "launch" versus a mission success?"

Simple:

Step 1: Did the vehicle explode: If yes, Failure, if no, proceed to step 2.

Step 2: Did the vehicle reach a trajectory that was usable for the mission: if yes, proceed to step 3, if no, Failure.

Step 3: Was the payload was unable to deploy due to a failure of the launch vehicle: if yes, Failure, if no, proceed to step 4.

Step 4: Did the vehicle enter the desired trajectory: If yes, Success, if no, Partial Failure.

IFT-1 and IFT-2 don't make it past step 1.

IFT-3 didn't explode, reached a usable trajectory, and at SECO was in the desired trajectory. So, Success.

"It seems like there is a consistent effort to lower the bar of success such that no caveats arw required to be displayed on the summary to this page"

No, this is consistent with every single launch vehicle but one: the Space Shuttle. Redacted II (talk) 15:27, 22 March 2024 (UTC)

"First: launch statistics have always judged on rocket based on whether or not it accomplished intended objectives on a given flight."

Incorrect. Launch statistic judge whether it inserted the payload into the correct orbit.

"Crucially, it reached the final intended phase of flight, distinguishing partial failure from a full failure."

Success v.s partial failure, not partial failures v.s success.

"In my view, this provides the strongest case for partial failure, as the rocket accomplished most, but not all, objectives."

No, it provides an argument for success. Redacted II (talk) 11:10, 22 March 2024 (UTC)

I don't think the supposed problem with the door is confirmed. It did appear open. SpaceX stated: "While coasting, Starship accomplished several of the flight test’s additional objectives, including the opening and closing of its payload door ..." I did not see closing on the stream, but that doesn't mean it didn't happen.

Is there any indication that the slow rotation would have prevented deployment? Foonix0 (talk) 10:07, 22 March 2024 (UTC)

@Jadebenn

The fact that they couldn't complete the raptor relight doesn't matter. If a Falcon 9 second stage fails to complete a deorbit burn, the launch is still a success.

Additionally, the entire mission doesn't matter at all for launch success. It's like calling the Mars Observer launch a failure because the probe failed on its way to Mars.

The infobox only measures launch success. Redacted II (talk) 11:12, 22 March 2024 (UTC)

"The infobox only measures launch success."

It does not. There is long-standing precedence otherwise, or we would not have missions by LVs where payloads failed to deploy or second stages failed to ignite marked otherwise. You are attempting to redefine the term to something it isn't. – Jadebenn (talk · contribs · subpages) 14:48, 22 March 2024 (UTC)

"It does not. There is long-standing precedence otherwise, or we would not have missions by LVs where payloads failed to deploy or second stages failed to ignite marked otherwise"

This is partially correct. But the infobox does only measure launch success. In fact, the only launch vehicle in which it doesn't is the Space Shuttle, which even has a note dedicated to mentioning this difference.

The only failure this flight (other than the Super Heavy landing explosion and starship disintegration during entry, but Falcon 9 precedent makes this irrelevant to Launch Success) was the failed in-space relight. And saying that makes a launch a partial failure is saying every single second stage whose deorbit burn failed was a partial failure.

I think we can agree that calling all of those launches partial failure's would make very little sense. Redacted II (talk) 15:37, 22 March 2024 (UTC)

Success

The desired trajectory was reached: a slightly suborbital trajectory. We don't declare a launch failed if the deorbit burn failed. The only reason an engine burn post-seco can cause a flight to fail is if it prevents the mission from being achieved. That was not the case for IFT-3 Failed recovery is also irrelevant for success v.s failure. Falcon 9 is an excellent example of this: none of the failed landings changed the classification of the launch in the infobox. It would violate that precedent if it changed IFT-3s classification. The Infobox measures LAUNCH SUCCESS. And the launch was 100% successful. It would violate NPOV to classify it as anything but a success. While reliability of a few sources backing success are dubious, but the vast majority of reliable sources back this opinion. If anyone else wants to add some to (or if needed, remove entries to) this list, feel free. Just make sure to create a new collapsible list once the number of parts exceed 10.

1-10

• https://www.nasaspaceflight.com/2024/03/starship-3rd-time/
• https://www.businessinsider.com/starship-launch-success-elon-musk-vision-cheap-space-travel-closer-2024-3
• https://spacenews.com/spacex-planning-rapid-turnaround-for-next-starship-flight/ (Even the FAA called it a success)
• https://arstechnica.com/space/2024/03/after-its-third-test-flight-spacexs-starship-could-soon-carry-satellites/
• https://arstechnica.com/space/2024/03/thursdays-starship-flight-provided-a-glimpse-into-a-future-of-abundant-access-to-space/
• https://www.houstonchronicle.com/opinion/outlook/article/spacex-test-launch-rocket-booster-elon-musk-moon-18986410.php (Separates IFT-3 from 2 and 1, calling the earlier flights partial successes)
• https://www.washingtonpost.com/technology/2024/03/14/spacex-starship-test-flight/ (most successful yet)
• :https://www.nbcnews.com/science/space/spacex-starship-third-test-launch-thursday-rcna143286
• :https://www.cnbc.com/2024/03/14/spacex-starship-rocket-third-test-flight-launch.html
• https://www.cbsnews.com/news/spacex-launch-super-heavy-starship-rocket-third-test-flight/

11-20

• https://www.bloomberg.com/news/newsletters/2024-03-20/when-will-spacex-s-starship-actually-take-satellites-to-space
• https://qz.com/spacex-starship-rocket-elon-musk-fourth-test-1851351454
• https://thehill.com/opinion/4535395-the-ascent-of-spacexs-starship-is-a-testament-to-american-ingenuity-and-perseverance/
• https://www.usatoday.com/story/graphics/2024/03/14/spacex-starship-launch-3-explained/72968637007/
• https://www.nasa.gov/directorates/esdmd/artemis-campaign-development-division/human-landing-system-program/nasa-artemis-mission-progresses-with-spacex-starship-test-flight/
• https://www.reuters.com/technology/space/spacex-hoping-launch-starship-farther-third-test-flight-2024-03-14/
• https://www.aljazeera.com/news/2024/3/15/is-spacexs-latest-starship-launch-a-great-stride-in-space-key-takeaways
• https://www.cnn.com/world/live-news/spacex-starship-launch-scn-03-14-24/index.html
• https://wacotrib.com/opinion/column/gary-w-johnson-third-starship-test-flight-unqualified-success-for-spacex/article_944da29e-e557-11ee-b066-ebc970989c5e.html
• https://www.scientificamerican.com/article/spacexs-starship-rocket-reached-record-heights-before-it-was-lost/

21-30

• https://www.cbsnews.com/news/spacex-launch-super-heavy-starship-rocket-third-test-flight/
• https://payloadspace.com/payload-research-starships-progress-and-exploring-expendable-configuration/
• https://www.usatoday.com/story/news/nation/2024/03/14/spacex-starship-lost-third-test-past-launches-photos/72972098007/
• https://twitter.com/SenBillNelson/status/1768288689694642398?s
• https://scitechdaily.com/starship-soars-in-groundbreaking-test-for-nasas-moon-mission/
• https://www.fool.com/investing/2024/03/18/spacex-starship-is-already-a-success/
• https://www.latimes.com/business/story/2024-03-14/giant-spacex-starship-blasts-off-on-third-test-flight
• https://www.thespacereview.com/article/4761/1
• https://www.wmfe.org/podcast/are-we-there-yet/2024-03-19/starships-success-and-space-coast-celebrates-launch-icon
• https://www.statesman.com/story/news/state/2024/03/14/spacex-launch-starship-live-stream-rocket-starbase-boca-chica-texas-elon-musk/72968660007/

31-40

• https://www.valleycentral.com/spacex/spacex-aims-to-launch-fourth-starship-in-early-may/
• https://techcrunch.com/2024/03/14/spacex-makes-significant-progress-with-third-starship-orbital-test-flight/
• https://indianexpress.com/article/technology/science/spacex-says-it-lost-starship-after-mostly-successful-third-launch-9215558/
• https://myrgv.com/alerts-brh/2024/03/14/spacexs-starship-reaches-orbit-from-boca-chica-beach/
• https://www.smithsonianmag.com/smart-news/starship-reaches-orbit-in-third-test-flight-a-success-for-spacex-and-the-future-of-lunar-travel-180983959/
• '
• '
• '
• '

Finally, why are we doing an RFC? The vast majority of editors believe it was a success, mainly for the reasons listed above. This feels like a last attempt to get IFT-3 incorrectly classified.Redacted II (talk) 15:38, 21 March 2024 (UTC)

We distinguish between launch and overall mission in all our tables and infoboxes. The first Falcon 9 launch was a success even though the booster recovery failed. Apollo 13 was a successful Saturn V launch. IFT-3 was a successful Starship launch, even though the overall mission was not fully successful. --mfb (talk) 15:39, 21 March 2024 (UTC)

Agree, the launch was a success, and all extra activities on a test flight are important, but shouldn't change the launch outcome. Artem.G (talk) 16:52, 21 March 2024 (UTC)

Success. I was just about to post a list of sources that call IFT-3 a success, but Redacted II already posted it above. Unlike the first two IFTs, most reliable sources call this a success. Given the definitions of success vs. failure based on past consensus, although the IFT-3 mission was not fully successful, it was a successful launch of Starship. Our Infoboxes count the latter. User3749 (talk) 17:33, 21 March 2024 (UTC)

Please, if you have sources to add, add them!

Just make sure to create a new collapsible list: 21-30 is now full. Redacted II (talk) 18:52, 21 March 2024 (UTC)

I don't have sources that aren't on that list already, but I will add them if find some in the future. User3749 (talk) 09:05, 22 March 2024 (UTC)

Success, per above arguments. I did not fully understand that we were going with mission success vs launch success, launch was definitely successful. Cocobb8 (💬 talk • ✏️ contribs) 20:49, 21 March 2024 (UTC)

Success or Remove

The prior consensus on IFT-1 and IFT-2 was largely that the infobox information should be based on criteria consistent across all wikipedia articles that use that infobox. What sources say is thus irrelevant to what goes in the infobox, except for the extent to which they support or refute editors' consensus chosen infobox criteria. As discussed above, the consensus is that the infobox indicates launch success, and launch success correlates to the ability to deliver the (ostensible) payload to its required trajectory. The information presented in reliable sources strongly indicate that the criteria for are met. (Consider User:Redacted II's source list incorporated by reference here.) Attempts here to redefine the success criteria from "launch success" to "mission success" are moving the goalposts.

Even if the goalpost is moved to "mission success", there is still an argument that the mission was successful. The mission is an iterative design test indented to safely execute a shakedown of the vehicle, collect data, and find faults. The RSs absolutely say that they did that. SME statements support this point of view. I am against moving this goalpost. My point here is that if we do then that opens the door to re-evaluate the prior consensus.

But the problem with the prior RfCs and this one is that they put editors in the positions of rule maker, judge, jury, and executioner. We are doomed to endlessly bicker about and re-litigate success criteria any time there is any kind of problem with Starship if we keep this up. This will keep happening as long as people insist on using wikipedia as a "scoreboard." It is a terrible idea, and removal would at least cut down on the WP:OR and borderline WP:LAWYERING that goes on in these discussions.

Given that the discussion above and prior consensus ware already strongly in favor of "success," this RfC comes across as "asking the other parent" to me. The prior RfCs were essentially treated as votes. ("... that was not sufficient to sway the large majority of those responding." "... it became apparent that a preponderance of editors do not really think that said assumption holds.", etc) The discussion here was already overwhelmingly settled, and given that history shows that these RfCs are de facto votes, this RfC amounts to recruiting new electors to get a different result. This problem again suggests to "remove," because we need to stop doing this to ourselves. If bystanders once again come by to cast their votes, then I beg the closer to option for "remove." At the very least, please base the closing on some kind of rational argument rather than "preponderance of editors."

In short: if we're not overturning prior consensus, then success. Otherwise, remove. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Foonix0 (talk • contribs) 19:51, 21 March 2024 (UTC)

Discussion

It's been one week since the launch, and the dust has settled. Given the need for RfCs on both previous launches, this RfC will initiate a more formal process to achieving consensus. Please try to keep the comments and discussion in this section to keep the discussion organized for the closer, if needed.

I'm ping editors that participated in earlier discussions. Please add anyone I may have missed. Arch dude, Bugsiesegal, C9po, Cocobb8, CtrlDPredator, DASL51984, Elk Salmon, Ems57fcva, Ergzay, Fehér Zsigmond-03, Finlaymorrison0, Fnlayson, Foonix0, Frosty126, Full Shunyata, Fyunck(click), Galactic Penguin SST, Gojet-64, Gtoffoletto, Idontno2, IlkkaP, Jadebenn, Jrcraft Yt, JudaPoor, LordDainIronfoot, mfb, Mysterius, North8000, Redacted II, Sadko, Silviyssa, Stoplookin9, Sub31k, Tarl N., User3749, WellThisIsTheReaper, Yasslaywikia
Redraiderengineer (talk) 15:06, 21 March 2024 (UTC)

Personally, I think that this is a bad RfC as we just had a discussion on this and came to the rough consensus that this launch was a success. This topic is stale and further discussion should ideally take place in the discussion that existed before this RfC was opened. There is no need for further discussion to take place outside of that thread while it's still open. Yasslaywikia (talk) 19:56, 21 March 2024 (UTC)

Agreed. This RfC serves no purpose other than "asking the other parent". Redacted II (talk) 20:11, 21 March 2024 (UTC)

There's no need to do an RfC... the discussion has already happened and there is already consensus. Ergzay (talk) 20:51, 21 March 2024 (UTC)

Should I contact an admin to close the RfC? Redacted II (talk) 20:52, 21 March 2024 (UTC)

Sure, I'm going to go ahead and remove the dubious tag. Ergzay (talk) 20:53, 21 March 2024 (UTC)

Meant to say "disputed" tag. Ergzay (talk) 20:56, 21 March 2024 (UTC)

I have reverted your removal of that tag. You may disagree with me doing this. That is the very definition of a dispute. – Jadebenn (talk · contribs · subpages) 14:53, 22 March 2024 (UTC)

The reason the tag was removed is because their was already a consensus.

This RfC was started to drag out the process. That isn't the role of an RfC, so the tag should be removed.

I implore you: please self-revert. Redacted II (talk) 15:28, 22 March 2024 (UTC)

Still shows the tag on SpaceX Starship Flight Tests.

I'd remove it myself, but I can't. Redacted II (talk) 21:04, 21 March 2024 (UTC)

We don't need an admin to close it, if we agree to close it (which I do for success) Cocobb8 (💬 talk • ✏️ contribs) 20:57, 21 March 2024 (UTC)

I literally JUST sent the request. Redacted II (talk) 21:00, 21 March 2024 (UTC)

I'm fine with closure. I'll admit even my own comment doesn't add much that hasn't already been discussed besides criticizing the RfC process. Even that wasn't necessary until another RfC was opened... Foonix0 (talk) 21:38, 21 March 2024 (UTC)

According to WP:RfCL, since consensus is clear, we should close it ourselves. Redacted II (talk) 21:49, 21 March 2024 (UTC)

Yes, lets close it. This has no point other then to relight the endless argumentation. Consensus was clear, and another RfC wont fix anything, since people have very strong opinions (not meant negatively). Fehér Zsigmond-03 (talk) 07:33, 22 March 2024 (UTC)

It hasn't even been a day and you all are trying to close the RfC? I just saw the ping now!

By God, this page has been subject to some of the most tendentious POV pushing I've ever seen... – Jadebenn (talk · contribs · subpages) 03:59, 22 March 2024 (UTC)

The discussion was opened on the day of the launch. We agreed to leave a disputed tag to encourage discussion. That happened, and consensus was already forming. The proposal is to close the RfC about 7 days after the start of the discussion. The RfC kicks the can down the road and forces us to restate the same discussion we just had.

"By God, this page has been subject to some of the most tendentious POV pushing I've ever seen..."

If that's the case, then please consider supporting my suggestion to remove the scoreboard. That would help with this issue. Foonix0 (talk) 05:36, 22 March 2024 (UTC)

"If that's the case, then please consider supporting my suggestion to remove the scoreboard."

Yes, surrendering to the POV pushing of removing any and all negativity around Starship would indeed stop further POV pushing. That does not make it the correct course of action. – Jadebenn (talk · contribs · subpages) 14:54, 22 March 2024 (UTC)

While I also believe that it’d be beneficial to close the RfC, It definitely doesn’t help when editors significantly escalate the dispute when it’s completely counter-intuitive to dispute resolution. If you believe that POV pushing is a serious concern, then take it to ANI or contact an admin - similar concerns have been raised in the past and were inconclusive. Yasslaywikia (talk) 08:45, 22 March 2024 (UTC)

I wasn't trying to ban Redraiderengineer, I was trying to get an uninvolved editor to close the dispute. Redacted II (talk) 11:14, 22 March 2024 (UTC)

Pinging @Chuckstablers Redacted II (talk) 12:39, 22 March 2024 (UTC)

Sources

orbital propellant transfer

I know a big "milestone" for starship IFT3 was the actual propellant transfer demo, which is why I'm surprised there isn't any mention of it being demonstrated as feasible on the HLS portion of the article, especially considering it'll be crucial for HLS itself to function. is there a reason behind it? Norovern, bro! (talk) 17:41, 21 March 2024 (UTC)

There is a bit in the HLS article itself. Redacted II (talk) 17:49, 21 March 2024 (UTC)

"Starship is planned to be able to be refueled by docking with separately launched Starship propellant tanker spacecraft in orbit..."

I understand the plan to actually transfer it for HLS missions is in the article, but IMHO I think the way its structured makes it seem like it's still a feasibility rather than something that was demonstrated. It might just be how I'm looking at it. Norovern, bro! (talk) 17:54, 21 March 2024 (UTC)

Well, prop transfer hasn't yet happened between two starships, so the docking is untested.

The wording does feel wrong to me as well, but I get why it is the way it is. Redacted II (talk) 17:58, 21 March 2024 (UTC)

ok, when you put it that way (transfer between two vehicles, not seperate tanks), it actually makes a bit more sense. thanks for clarification. Norovern, bro! (talk) 17:59, 21 March 2024 (UTC)

happy to help! Redacted II (talk) 18:41, 21 March 2024 (UTC)

Incorrect mass/thickness of barrel sections

The description section mentions that the "cylinders have a diameter of 9 m (30 ft), a height of 2 m (7 ft), a thickness of 4 mm (0.16 in) and a mass of 1,600 kg (4,000 lb) each" Together these numbers don't make sense unless SpaceX has created an amazingly dense stainless variant. It would be in the ball-park of 560 kg with those dimensions. The source doesn't mention the thickness of the barrel so I am unsure where the 4mm number is taken from. For the math to make sense the thickness should be slightly thicker than 1.1cm. It is an old source however (2020) so it could be that the 4 mm thickness is more up to date - and that it's the mass number that's the issue instead. Tokemich (talk) 01:54, 22 March 2024 (UTC)

Nevermind, I only now read that the 9m is the diameter and not length. Tokemich (talk) 02:01, 22 March 2024 (UTC)