Talk:The Forgotten Holocaust

Cooper is WP:UNDUE

I think it's one thing to cite reviews which are in-depth, and another to cite mentions in passing (hence, removal of Cooper: [1]). Lukas book is cited in hundreds of works ([2]). I don't think attributing one liners fits with WP:UNDUE (also consider WP:BLP/WP:FRINGE with regards to descriptions that are not supported by majority of sources). I think we should focus on what is said in the in-depth works, and not on passing comments. PS. Reviewing this again, I think it is undue to call Lukas an apologist based on a single comment in passing (I did find the page in question here: [3] in case anyone else wants to review this) BUT I do think it can be mentioned somewhere that his work is challenging the view of Poles as antisemites, this was mentioned in some sources I read, but I don't recall if there were reviews of this books of his or some others. PPS. I checked the book in Google Print and I can't verify "He states Lukas had attempted to minimize the effect of antisemitism on the treatment of Jews in WWII Poland,[21]:103" (that page does not mention him?) and "and cites several example in various areas." seems to be WP:SYNTH. --_{Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus| reply here} 10:46, 7 April 2020 (UTC)

Cooper is more focused on breadth than depth, and gives Lukas as an example in 8-9 places in different contexts. His importance here is as one of the more recent sources, who's had time to evaluate Lukas in a historical context; most of the other reviews are from the 1980's. In a way he's an example of how Lukas is perceived today, rather than then. This is one reason, I believe, for why there aren't any more recent reviews. The others that do exist, like Pawlikowski's - who gives an anecdote (which I've been unable to get a citation for, so didn't add) of how Prof. Thaddeus Gromada, entrusted with presented one of Lukas's papers, edited it for what he perceived were "antisemitic undertones" - or Grabowski's, give a similar impression.

P. 103 cites Lukas as a "prominent Polish historian". François Robere (talk) 12:59, 9 April 2020 (UTC)

That anecdote seems to be false: Talk:Richard_C._Lukas#False_claims_(BLP)_issue. At least according to both Lukas and Gromada. Even if Lukas could be biased, I think Gromada's word can be trusted.

Re Cooper, I have reconsidered my view and I am fine with adding more from him, as long as we avoid SYNTH. It's important to illustrate how modern scholars feel about older works. It's a bit of a shame reviews of older works are rarely published (through we do have one from 2014, I think). --_{Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus| reply here} 02:01, 10 April 2020 (UTC)

I've emailed Pawlikowski to hear his version.

Agreed. Quote as much of him as you will. He mentioned Lukas in different contexts, so there's something for everyone. François Robere (talk) 11:08, 10 April 2020 (UTC)

Prof. Pawlikowski replied with permission to quote him here:

The conference at which Dr. Gromada read the Lukas paper goes back well over a decade, if not longer. So my recollection is a bit faded. But I can confirm that Dr. Gromada made the statement to which you refer. If I recall correctly, he told several of us prior to the session that he was going to distance himself from some of Prof. Lukas' statements in the paper. I also recall that he made a public statement in this regard prior to beginning of his reading of the paper. In short, Dr. Gromada definitely said this even though I am unable to remember every aspect of his disclaimer.

— John T. Pawlikowski (by email to the undersigned, 11.04.2020)

François Robere (talk) 15:16, 11 April 2020 (UTC)

Interesting, but considering that Gromada said something else in the linked letter, I think we should conclude that Pawlikowski's memory is faulty, as he himself admits is a possibility. Through this entire direction of discussion is likely pointless, given WP:BLP as well as the fact we don't have a WP:RS for Pawlikowski's claim. See also Talk:Richard_C._Lukas#False_claims_(BLP)_issue. --_{Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus| reply here} 01:48, 13 April 2020 (UTC)

I see no reason to assume one is more reliable than the other, and indeed it's irrelevant as it's not in the article to begin with. What it does matter for are the problems inherent in Lukas's work, and the mixed acceptance it received. François Robere (talk) 12:58, 13 April 2020 (UTC)

Let's keep things in perspective. Fringe criticism is, well, fringe. When 90% of the reviews are positive, well, that's consensus. Dissenting minority views exist and are, well, WP:FRINGE/WP:UNDUE. --_{Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus| reply here} 01:49, 14 April 2020 (UTC)

90% of the reviews are from the mid 1980's, and including the long correspondence over the pages of the Sarmatian Review are it's close to 60-40. Later reviews are less accepting. François Robere (talk) 20:16, 14 April 2020 (UTC)

I'd agree, but it is hard to generalize from such a small sample. --_{Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus| reply here} 00:52, 15 April 2020 (UTC)

Btw, Cooper himself was criticized for using the term apologist here: [4] "His tone is frequently angry, repeatedly referring to some Polish historians as “apologists,” and even ultimately holding the Poles responsible for the slaughter ofJews by Ukrainian Cossacks under Bohdan Chmielnicki, because the revolt was caused by the Poles’ cruel treatment ofthe Cossacks. Libraries should balance Cooper’s interpretation of Poles and Jews during the Holocaust with Richard C. Lukas’s The Forgotten Holocaust". That's from John A. Drobnicki, from York College, City University of New York.--_{Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus| reply here} 05:04, 11 April 2020 (UTC)

Newspaper critique

I almost forgot that Jan Grabowski (historian) criticized this book in a recent Polish newspaper article ([5]). He effectively endorses Engel's critique of the book (and he explicitly mentions his 1987 review). I am not sure if this should be mentioned here, given it's a newspaper mention, and in passing (few sentence). Interestingly, Grabowski claims that Lukas works have many errors and are not cited by modern scholars. Which is a bit stange, according to Google Scholar, Forgotten Holocaust has ~250 academic cites, and ~35 or so in the last 5 years, so it is still seemingly cited ([6]). I recently expanded Lukas' bio, and all I can say is that up to and including Forgotten Holocaust, academic reviews of his works were pretty positive. His latter works got fewer reviews, and they were more "middle-of-the-road", mostly since his latter works are collections of memoirs, so more descriptive, and less analytical. It is possible that the modern view of Lukas is changing, but I could not find any in-depth critique of this book (or of Lukas in general) to back up Grabowski's newspaper's critique. PS. Newspapers are also problematic per WP:APL#Article sourcing expectations. --_{Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus| reply here} 06:18, 8 April 2020 (UTC)

Indeed he has, but WP:APL#Article sourcing expectations. See my comment above on what Lukas has done in terms of Polish and Jewish histories; you'll probably find he's treated differently on each. François Robere (talk) 13:02, 9 April 2020 (UTC)

That said, I don't think there was a clear consensus in APL re newspapers. Maybe we should ask for a simple clarifications re newspapers as a source, citing this and the Times of Israel diff you recently removed elsewhere (Sunny Day I think)? --_{Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus| reply here} 02:02, 10 April 2020 (UTC)

It was there, yes, but we've had this discussion before. If you want to file on ARCA I'll be happy to oblige, just make sure you clarify no one's looking for reversing those sourcing requirements. François Robere (talk) 11:09, 10 April 2020 (UTC)

In the context of the puzzling claim that the book is obsolete, it was called "elementary" in [7] but I think it's a passing mention that does not warrant a mention. Just a note that recently (2009) the book is still seen as useful by many scholars. --_{Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus| reply here} 05:11, 11 April 2020 (UTC)

Davies

Re: [8]. Books in good presses are often subject to a peer review. Forewords and such might be subject to it as well. In all honesty, it is hard to be sure, the point is it is also hard to assume this was not peer reviewed. I think it should be fine as long as it clearly states this is from a foreword or such. It does pass a lot of the RS flags - reliable outlet, reliable publisher. --_{Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus| reply here} 01:37, 9 April 2020 (UTC)

Yeah, but this is Hippocrene Books, not the original university press. François Robere (talk) 13:03, 9 April 2020 (UTC)

A press does not need to have "University" it is name to be seen as highly reliable (Routledge...). Granted, Hippocrene Books is not in the same league, but I don't see why we should assume it is not reliable, particularly given Davies is seen as one of the main authorities on works about Polish history. Again, I think that as long as we clearly attribute him to a foreward, it is not a problem with RS? We can take this to WP:RSN if you wish. --_{Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus| reply here} 02:06, 10 April 2020 (UTC)

Hippocrene Books is not in the same league, but I don't see why we should assume it is not reliable Because it's not in the same league.

A university press should have mighty good reason to drop a "best seller" like Lukas, and Lukas should have mighty good reason to take it to Hippocrene rather than to a larger, or more specialized publisher. François Robere (talk) 11:19, 10 April 2020 (UTC)

I'll ask at WP:30 first. Norman Davies is reliable, and there is no proof Hippocrene is not reliable enough to have some sort of peer review. I don't see why a clearly attributed quote from his foreword should not be in this article. PS. I went ahead and asked at RSN anyway and pinged you; for the record: Wikipedia:Reliable_sources/Noticeboard#Foreword_by_Norman_Davies_in_Hippocrene_Books.--_{Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus| reply here} 02:11, 11 April 2020 (UTC)

Procedural note: you can't really do both at the same time. The moment another editor commented on RSN, WP:30 became redundant. François Robere (talk) 13:42, 11 April 2020 (UTC)

You are right, I'll go and remove the 30. --_{Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus| reply here} 02:07, 13 April 2020 (UTC)

Salmonowicz

I found an interesting comment about this book in Salmonowicz ([9] open access but in Polish; note: he mispells his name in text, sometimes it is Lukas, sometimes, Lucas, I guess the copyediting of this journal is non existent...). The following is from a footnote on p.159 and refers to the book's (Polish edition I presume) treatment of "Jewish matters pp. 154–193 - this is a balanced sketch. It is true that the author did not know some of the unfortunate materials revealed only in recent years, however, taking this into account (including into the anti-Jewish actions of the Podlasie population in 1941), his many statements are closer to the realities of the era than works of both apologetic movement, as well as a kind of negativism represented towards Polish affairs in the "Gross's school". It is absolutely impossible to accuse Lukas of minimizing Polish anti-Semitism." It's interesting particularly that as Cooper thinks Lukas is a Polish apologist, Salmonowicz argues he is not and instead seems him as a middle ground. PS. Through Richards Plavnieks (11 September 2017). Nazi Collaborators on Trial during the Cold War: Viktors Arājs and the Latvian Auxiliary Security Police. Springer. pp. 4–. ISBN 978-3-319-57672-5. Lukas work is described as the other side view" compared to Gross. Although Gross work was published much later, of course. --_{Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus| reply here} 04:54, 11 April 2020 (UTC)

Not a good sign as far as editorial controls are concerned. François Robere (talk) 20:22, 14 April 2020 (UTC)

Hyphenation of year span

Hi, just a trivial question: is there a particular reason behind the use of hyphen rather than endash in the page title? Eisfbnore ^(会話) 20:20, 15 April 2020 (UTC)

@Eisfbnore: No, just a copypaste artifact. --_{Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus| reply here} 01:21, 16 April 2020 (UTC)

Dubious Reviews

Piotrus, do you support or oppose this edit? TrangaBellam (talk) 06:32, 15 February 2023 (UTC)

I am particularly curious about why you chose to add the descriptor of "a PhD student"? It is technically accurate but gives an air-of-authority to the review which is misplaced. I am assuming good faith but hope to hear from you. TrangaBellam (talk) 07:59, 15 February 2023 (UTC)

@TrangaBellam I do not support removal of reliable, academic sources, although I fully agree those are not high-end ones. Their removal, IMHO, is unhelpful (WP:NOTCENSORED); my solution has always been to clearly attribute the author and the journal, so that the readers can make their own mind about which source is better than the other. As for the PhD student, I can't recall why I did so but ironically, I think that the descriptor "PhD student" indicates this is a lower quality source - still reliable (see also WP:THESIS) but not to be taken with as much authority as reviews written by "professors". I am open to adding some qualifications to the reviews you challenged - we can point out, for example, that some authors are not historians but librarians or such. But, again, I do not believe there are any grounds to remove their POV from the article. IMHO we should acknowledge the existence and content of all reviews of any given book, it's all part of making the article comprehensive. Btw, we should probably add the criticism of this book from the recent G. and K. article, it is peer reviewed and while the discussion of the book is not in-depth there, it is relevant. More content > less content, this is how Wikipedia grows. _{Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus| reply here} 08:32, 15 February 2023 (UTC)

No, verifiability does not guarantee inclusion and we are not an indiscriminate collection of information. You need to show how the review by a "behavioral science and health policy PhD scholar" with research interests in "healthcare consumerism, judgment and decision-making, and behavioral economics" is DUE. I won't have objected if she was pursuing a PhD on Holocaust etc. TrangaBellam (talk) 09:02, 15 February 2023 (UTC)

It is DUE because a reception section of the book should list all reviews, not just reviews by folks with relevant PhDs. We can qualify the reviews and note which ones are published by people with more relevant background and which aren't, but there is no policy justification for removing them. In fact, removing such reviews makes the article less neutral (and comprehensive).

From Wikipedia:WikiProject_Books: "Reception — quote the opinions of book reviewers. This section should contain a balanced reflection of the reviews. Providing balance is sometimes difficult because some reviews are more critical than others; some reviews may simply state "this book is great" while others may provide detailed analysis about what made the book good/bad. Because this section involves opinions, it should be heavy with quotes and citations."

Nothing in WP:BOOK style guideline suggests we should be selective when it comes to including reviews (of course, common sense will stop us from including user generated reviews from Goodreads or similar). But yeah, a review written by a "behavioral science and health policy PhD scholar" is perfectly fine to include here (again, I don't mind including a qualification and for example saying that such and such reviewer is a "behavioral science and health policy PhD scholar"). _{Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus| reply here} 10:03, 15 February 2023 (UTC)

And, your qualifier of "a PhD student" was disingenous because an average reader would have got the impression that she was pursuing her dissertation on some relevant topic, and had some expertise in the topic-area. TrangaBellam (talk) 09:39, 15 February 2023 (UTC)

I don't object to that qualifier being removed. The mention of the review, however, should be restored. _{Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus| reply here} 09:57, 15 February 2023 (UTC)

@TrangaBellam you wrote that Drobnicki is a librarian; no Ph.D. etc.. First of all, I don't see why being a "librarian" would exclude anyone's opinion. Secondly, Drobnicki is a historian by training and has published a number of works on Holocaust-denial literature. So his opinion as a professional historian and librarian is extremely valuable when it comes to Holocaust related literature. Marcelus (talk) 10:29, 15 February 2023 (UTC)

Nobody is a proffessional historian without a PhD in some relevant discipline, please! He is obviously untrained to dissect the errors (and lack thereof) in specialist monographs like our subject. Fwiw, Drobnicki's body-of-work is mostly about whether libraries should feature Holocaust-denial literature and if so, best practices etc. Not the history of Holocaust and you know that damn well.

We do not have a scarcity of reviews from domain-scholars to start scraping the barrel. TrangaBellam (talk) 13:28, 15 February 2023 (UTC)