Talk:Tired light

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This is an old revision of this page, as edited by 140.252.83.232 (talk) at 20:34, 4 June 2011 (→‎The big bang is a religion). The present address (URL) is a permanent link to this revision, which may differ significantly from the current revision.

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Please read this talk page discussion before making substantial changes.


A mechanism for "tired light"

The phenomenon of photon-path-bending is well documented, both in diffraction of photons past a sharp edge, and in photons passing by a massive object such as the sun. It is a geometric necessity for photons to slow in their path in order for them to have a curved path. When a photon path is bent, the side of the photon proximal (nearest) to the mass, be it a blade or a cosmological mass, slows in comparison to the distal (far) edge of the photon. Since this bending is a function of the field of the object and the field is continuous in space, both the proximal and the distal edge of the photon are slowed. But, the difference between the two speeds causes the photon to follow a curved path. One may then ask, is this interaction between the mass and photon, elastic or inelastic? If the interaction is inelastic, then the photon will leave the interaction having lost energy and thereby leave with a longer wavelength. Since photons can be absorbed by matter and converted to thermal energy, the interaction must be inelastic. The train of energy transfer being: the movement of the electron by the photon and the electron transferring the energy to the thermal vibration of the atom. Even at a large distance the interaction between the cumulative electron field of the mass and the photon is a real interaction as evidenced by the observed bending. As a real interaction, one we have established as inelastic, energy will be transferred and wavelength of the photon increased. In passing thru the universe, photons from a distant object will be slowed equally on average for the entire image. There should be no broadening of wavelength (spectrum blurring), since the entire image is subject to mass fields that are smoothly continuous and distributed nearly equally on all sides of the image’s path. Even in gravitational lensing, there should be no observable spectrum broadening. All photon images are played upon by gravitational lensing to a very small degree, but only when the image passes very near to a large mass does the lensing become observable. This explanation of the “tired light” hypothesis suggests the unification of the electromagnetic and the gravitational forces. My Flatley (talk) 18:29, 13 November 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Without citations to reliable sources, this has to be considered original research. You might want to check the talk page guidlines for further information about what's appropriate in here. Regards, Paradoctor (talk) 19:53, 13 November 2009 (UTC)[reply]

dilation of cosmologically distant events

It seems to be the opposite, the expanding universe theory can't explain why distant quasars are NOT dilated: http://www.physorg.com/news190027752.html--90.179.235.249 (talk) 21:41, 18 April 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Excellent news, thank you! I footnoted it, it is a bit early to work it into the main text. I'm pretty sure that this is going to make headlines. ;) Paradoctor (talk) 05:09, 19 April 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Paradoctor, as promised, just added this reference. Unfortunately, the article is now garbled. The new reference is used to footnote a statement that it seems to contradict, and it also contradicts the later statements supported by footnotes [13] and [14]. We need to put these papers in relation to each other, at a minimum to say that the issue has not yet been definitively settled. The contradiction seems to be between studies made on supernovae and studies made on quasars. I'm hoping someone with a better background and knowledge of the literature will do this before I come in with a hatchet. --Art Carlson (talk) 08:28, 19 April 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Sorry, /me bad copyeditor. The article needs an overhaul anyway, I might find time this weekend. Do you think the patch will stay the execution until then? Paradoctor (talk) 20:02, 19 April 2010 (UTC)[reply]
I'm laid back. I hope and trust you can teach me something if I give you time. I wonder, though, if this is the best place to go into details. Shouldn't these studies, and whatever commentaries that may exist on these studies, be presented in Time dilation, or maybe in Hubble's law? --Art Carlson (talk) 10:49, 20 April 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Hubble's law definitely, tired light turns on the question of how to interpret this phenomenon. Depending on how material is distributed, a number of articles relating to cosmology are also concerned. For time dilation this would at most be a question of whether or not to mention that time dilation is observed in distant objects. Current mainstream consensus is "yes", and will not change soon. Of course, if Hawkins' observations are corroborated and turn out to be as annoying as, say, the Pioneer anomaly, we might have another cosmological crisis on our hands. ;) Paradoctor (talk) 16:18, 20 April 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Maybe this is the right place. For the mainstream, the SNe results are ho-hum, since they only verify what we already "know", and are much, much less precise than the spectrographic measurements. The quasar result is probably not notable enough to be mentioned in the mainstream articles until it has been replicated by other groups. On the other hand, tired light theories are calling all of this into question, so it makes sense to look at all the different kinds of evidence available. (I'm not holding my breath for the next cosmological crisis, if there was ever a first one.) --Art Carlson (talk) 07:19, 21 April 2010 (UTC)[reply]

In culture

The artist Carsten Nicolai created a series of works called "tired light" which thematizes this phenomenon. 78.52.97.154 (talk) 14:00, 13 July 2010 (UTC)[reply]

literature has taken notice of published criticism

Major French journal Le Nouvel Observateur's Science has taken notice of Lorenzo Zaninetti and D.L.Mamas, see: http://olivier-4.blogs.nouvelobs.com/archive/2011/04/19/le-pouvoir-de-l-imaginaire-remise-en-question-bizarre-vous-a.html these cited references should be included. 66.194.104.5 (talk) 15:32, 26 May 2011 (UTC)[reply]

This is not a typical way in which someone's work would be noticed in the scientific community and does not rise to the standards required for articles in Wikipedia. Blogs, like this, are simply not appropriate ways of verifying reliability. Additionally, a researcher has been waging an ongoing internet campaign to get his ideas onto Wikipedia, which should raise some red flags. He would be well-advised to get his ideas published in ApJ, MNRAS, or A&A if he wants to be noticed and taken seriously. 69.86.225.27 (talk) 20:12, 26 May 2011 (UTC)[reply]
The misleading term blog here in French language context is referring to a regularly published commentary in a major French scientific magazine Science. I don't see where a researcher has waged any campaigns regarding wikipedia. Also, Lorenzo Zaninetti's work is cited by Science and should be mentioned here as well. Not all published physicists believe the redshift is due to expanding space. I here add to the article Zaninetti's published article reference. 71.98.132.209 (talk) 02:52, 27 May 2011 (UTC)[reply]
The IP posting above is presumably a researcher trying to get his work into Wikipedia. This is now being reported to WP:FTN and WP:COIN. Tiny minority ideas of current fringe physicists do not belong in this article which is about a notable historical concepts which has been falsified. 198.202.202.22 (talk) 17:51, 30 May 2011 (UTC)[reply]
It is a Violation of wikipedia rules to attack a living person. 12.184.176.57 (talk) 21:49, 30 May 2011 (UTC)[reply]

Crawford, Masreliez, Zaninetti, and Mamas are published in recognized journals and by wikipedia rules must be included in the section on criticisms. 66.194.104.5 (talk) 21:34, 1 June 2011 (UTC)[reply]

Crawford is published in Nature, these are respected journals not to be censored by people who don't like what they say. 71.98.139.122 (talk) 01:55, 2 June 2011 (UTC)[reply]

It is a Violation of wikipedia rules to attack living persons. 71.98.139.122 (talk) 12:28, 2 June 2011 (UTC)[reply]

Crawford is reference 15 which is published in Nature, perfectly acceptable reference not to be censored. 71.98.139.122 (talk) 14:21, 2 June 2011 (UTC)[reply]
Nature papers from 1979 that have no citations, were roundly refuted that year, and are therefore not particularly related to the historical subject do not belong here. 140.252.83.241 (talk) 20:58, 2 June 2011 (UTC)[reply]
The Nature article was never refuted, and is directly related as a criticism of tired light. The other publications also. 66.194.104.5 (talk) 21:10, 2 June 2011 (UTC)[reply]
It was refuted by Peebles in his cosmology text, for one. The rest of the publications are fringe journals with zero impact factor believed only by the cranky and the dying believers in Big Bang hatred. 140.252.83.241 (talk) 21:13, 2 June 2011 (UTC)[reply]
Peebles never published a refutation in any journal, nowhere. And the other journals are recognized sources. 66.194.104.5 (talk) 21:18, 2 June 2011 (UTC)[reply]
Peebles most certainly did publish a refutation in his cosmology text and it's referenced in this article. That's the sense in which this article needs to be written and understood. 140.252.83.241 (talk) 21:28, 2 June 2011 (UTC)[reply]
A book is not peer reviewed. It is not a journal article. 66.194.104.5 (talk) 21:38, 2 June 2011 (UTC)[reply]
Text books published by reputable publishers are peer reviewed. People don't bother publishing about tired light any more because it has been falsified and will stay that way until convincing observational evidence is shown otherwise. 140.252.83.241 (talk) 22:32, 2 June 2011 (UTC)[reply]
Text books are not peer reviewed as are journal articles. People do publish tired light articles, you just censor them all. 96.254.154.3 (talk) 23:29, 2 June 2011 (UTC)[reply]
What a lark! Text books and journal articles are different beasts. When someone publishes a book that states in the text more-or-less definitively that tired light is falsified, that's a pretty strong indicator of the mainstream understanding of the subject. It then becomes the job of the itinerant fringe scientist to convince the community that the prevailing understanding is wrong. It is a tough, uphill battle, but it's not one that's supposed to be waged here. And it certainly doesn't help that the "tired light articles" that you say "people do publish" are all found in journals that are not watched by experts in the subject. I'd suggest, if you know any of these people who publish such articles, that you give them the friendly advice to engage the actual research community that deals with this subject rather than pretending and publishing their papers in out-of-the-way, low-impact, poor-reputation journals. 140.252.83.232 (talk) 07:59, 4 June 2011 (UTC)[reply]

Is Wikipedia fair and balanced ?

Significant numbers of scientists do not believe the big bang theory at all, as evidenced by all the signers at http://www.cosmologystatement.org/ etc. Tired light is the Achilles' Heel of the big bang believers, who are in complete panic to discredit any discussion of tired light. 66.194.104.5 (talk) 21:34, 2 June 2011 (UTC)[reply]

The vast majority of the sigantories of that statement are neither astronomers, cosmologists, nor regarded research scientists. Just sour grapes and a lot of time on their hands. A number of creationists signed that document too. It should be an embarrassment to the alt cosmology community that they included so many charlatans in that statement which is now 10 years old and has NOTHING to show for it. 140.252.83.241 (talk) 22:31, 2 June 2011 (UTC)[reply]
Big names in cosmology signed it. Go look again. 96.254.154.3 (talk) 23:26, 2 June 2011 (UTC)[reply]
The "big names" are not so very big. All either unknown in the field, aging (or dead) cranks, or outright charlatans. Check adsabs if you don't believe me. 140.252.83.241 (talk) 23:38, 2 June 2011 (UTC)[reply]
Gold and Bondi are giants in cosmology. They signed. 96.254.154.3 (talk) 23:54, 2 June 2011 (UTC)[reply]
Both are dead. Science progresses one death at a time.140.252.83.241 (talk) 00:42, 3 June 2011 (UTC)[reply]

Remove this section on sight, please

This section [1] will be removed if it is reinstated. None of the cited examples are to mainstream astrophysics journals, nor have any of these examples received notice by the mainstream astrophysics community. Until they do, this section belongs excised from Wikipedia. 140.252.83.241 (talk) 00:45, 3 June 2011 (UTC)[reply]

They are published in Physics journals because astronomers are too deeply invested in the big bang to let themselves consider alternatives; physicists are not constrained by such protocol. It's time for astronomers to now listen to physicists. Dr.Masreliez, Dr.Zaninetti, and Dr.Mamas are all physicists. Astronomers better get the wax out of their ears, because their big bang is nonsense right on the face of it. 71.98.133.113 (talk) 02:05, 3 June 2011 (UTC)[reply]
WP:RGW. That's not what we're here for. These physicists who can't get published in normal venues don't deserve space on Wikipedia. Let them change the community's rejection of their ideas first, then they can come back. 140.252.83.232 (talk) 04:48, 3 June 2011 (UTC)[reply]
Physics Essays is a normal venue published under the American Institute of Physics, see: http://www.aip.org/journal_catalog/soclist.html 71.98.136.234 (talk) 16:48, 3 June 2011 (UTC)[reply]
Nobel Prize winner Dr.Hannes Alfven said the big bang is a 'religion'. 71.98.133.113 (talk) 12:24, 3 June 2011 (UTC)[reply]
Alfven is dead and Physics Essays is a fringe journal that has little to not editorial guidance, being controlled by a relativity denier. Just because AIP publishes it doesn't mean it's reliable. 140.252.83.232 (talk) 20:51, 3 June 2011 (UTC)[reply]

Alfvén may be dead but his heritage is not. I recall him as a most inspiring super-advisor to my master thesis work long time ago. And his ideas was certainly treated as "fringe", judging from his publishing problems with peer-reviewed american journals. / Kurtan (talk) 22:07, 3 June 2011 (UTC)[reply]

Alfven's cosmology ideas were of interest in the 1950s and 1960s. Today, they are a footnote to history. 140.252.83.232 (talk) 22:12, 3 June 2011 (UTC)[reply]

Dispute/Page Protection

As an uninvolved editor, I have requested that this page be temporarily protected due to the edit warring taking place amongst editors. Please work to resolve things in the talk page, and reach consensus instead of simply editing the page with disputed material. Thanks Tiggerjay (talk) 06:24, 3 June 2011 (UTC)[reply]

Proposed consensus

Do not include articles that are unpublished on arxiv nor articles published in Physics Essays.

140.252.83.232 (talk) 10:39, 3 June 2011 (UTC)[reply]

Physics Essays is published by the American Institute of Physics. Physics Essays allows criticism of the big bang theory. Astronomers need to subscribe to it. 71.98.133.113 (talk) 12:28, 3 June 2011 (UTC)[reply]
As far as I can make out it is published by Physics Essays Publishing, not by the American Institute of Physics. Dmcq (talk) 15:10, 3 June 2011 (UTC)[reply]
Physics Essays is published under the American Institute of Physics, and wikipedia is wrong to not accept their articles critical of the big bang theory. See: http://www.aip.org/journal_catalog/soclist.html 66.194.104.5 (talk) 15:20, 3 June 2011 (UTC)[reply]
What that says is that the AIP distributes that publication, which is saying something okay but I'm not sure what. It is not published by AIP, the small list at the top of that page is the list of ones published by the AIP. Dmcq (talk) 17:01, 3 June 2011 (UTC)[reply]
The site says Member Societies and Co-Publishers. Recognized by the AIP. 71.98.136.234 (talk) 17:16, 3 June 2011 (UTC)[reply]
The AIP does not give this particular epigraph any endorsement. It just distributes it. The journal is wholly operated by relativity deniers. 140.252.83.232 (talk) 20:53, 3 June 2011 (UTC)[reply]

Tired light is not dead as wikipedia claims

Here are some recently published articles rejecting the big bang theory: http://link.aip.org/link/?PHESEM/23/298/1 and http://link.aip.org/link/?PHESEM/23/326/1 Physics Essays is published under the American Institute of Physics and wikipedia should include them. 66.194.104.5 (talk) 15:38, 3 June 2011 (UTC)[reply]

Physics Essays is published under the American Institute of Physics, see: http://www.aip.org/journal_catalog/soclist.html 66.194.104.5 (talk) 15:51, 3 June 2011 (UTC)[reply]
It is distributed by their distributors, not published by the AIP. Dmcq (talk) 17:02, 3 June 2011 (UTC)[reply]
The site says Member Societies and Co-Publishers. Recognized by the AIP. 71.98.136.234 (talk) 17:15, 3 June 2011 (UTC)[reply]
No one in cosmology reads this journal and there are no cosmologists who edit it. Therefore, it is not a reliable source for this topic. 140.252.83.232 (talk) 20:50, 3 June 2011 (UTC)[reply]

There should be a section in wikipedia's article entitled 'Recent Models'. Wikipedia always permits new articles if published in journals which are recognized by the AIP. No reason to exclude these articles. 71.98.136.234 (talk) 17:25, 3 June 2011 (UTC)[reply]

There are no recent models that have been noticed by any mainstream astrophysicists. 140.252.83.232 (talk) 20:50, 3 June 2011 (UTC)[reply]
And why should "mainstream" be given exclusive priority? / Kurtan (talk) 22:46, 3 June 2011 (UTC)[reply]
Because Wikipedia is a mainstream source. If we were writing a fringe science encyclopedia, we could wax eloquent about the unpublished and unsupported ideas of those who believe in wild ideas not supported by astrophysics. But the goal of Wikipedia is not to do that. At least, that's how I interpret Wikipedia:Five pillars. 140.252.83.232 (talk) 23:54, 3 June 2011 (UTC)[reply]
Wikipedia is about as mainstream as CNN. All the same leftist politically correct garbage. 71.98.133.220 (talk) 12:01, 4 June 2011 (UTC)[reply]

Edit request from Crazymonkey1123, 3 June 2011

Very minor formatting error. The heading that reads as == History and reception == has a space between the == == and the name, but the other headings don't have an extra space between the == == and the heading name, so the heading should read as ==History and reception==. Crazymonkey1123 (Jacob) T or M/Sign mine 16:14, 3 June 2011 (UTC)[reply]

That should not affect the display of the article at all. I occasionally add spaces because I think it makes the titles more readable when editing, but I have never seen this as mattering in any particular wise. Am I wrong? - 2/0 (cont.) 03:31, 4 June 2011 (UTC)[reply]
I use a script called Advisor.js that picks up small formatting errors like this. Crazymonkey1123 (Jacob) T or M/Sign mine 16:21, 4 June 2011 (UTC)[reply]

Some fringe ideas are notable

It strikes me that if there is a fringe community pushing this sort of thing that may be notable in itself. Did New Scientist say anything about that petition that someone was going on about anyone know? Dmcq (talk) 17:32, 3 June 2011 (UTC)[reply]

Inasmuch as the community is "notable" it's written about on non-standard cosmology. New Scientist used to have a journalist who was sympathetic to fringe science and was a friend of Eric Lerner who was able to get this junk published in that magazine in May 2004. http://www.newscientist.com/article/mg18224482.900-bucking-the-big-bang.html THe offending editor has since moved on and New Scientist has resumed publishing more critical takes on pseudoscience: http://www.newscientist.com/article/mg20827873.100-parapsychology-lessons-from-the-fringe.html 140.252.83.232 (talk) 20:48, 3 June 2011 (UTC)[reply]
I believe notability would be derived from the push given by the fringe community as well as the press this recieves as a formerly proposed model and a model that has been discarded (for the obvious reasons). At the same time it is not neccessary to have sweaty religous fervor while discreding discarded models. I don't see it as really helpful. ---- Steve Quinn (talk) 04:32, 4 June 2011 (UTC)[reply]
What press? There are, of course, the breathless reports of the credulous who want to show the world how the experts all got it wrong. I haven't seen much in the way of a consistent coverage of this non-controversy. If you'd like to demonstrate that "tired light" is somehow an ongoing topic of interest in the science press, please be my guest. As it is, very few of my astrophysics colleagues even know what this thing is, let alone what the "push" that's going on from the "fringe community" about it entails. This community, incidentally, apparently is made up of less than half a dozen people none of who seem to be able to publish in ApJ, MNRAS, A&A, etc. As far as the "religious" fervor, it's a little upsetting to see how long Wikipedia tolerates cranks promoting their wares before it gets noticed. I've been trying to get people to notice for a number of days now, and it seems that when people finally start noticing that there is an issue, they've decided to attack the person pointing out the problem rather than deal with the obvious promotion of nonsense. 140.252.83.232 (talk) 07:51, 4 June 2011 (UTC)[reply]
Please don't start turning this into a personal matter. No one is attacking you. Some fringe things should be covered in articles and others are just not noteworthy. Wikipedia is more concerned with things that grab some attention than being like a scientific institution and establishing any sort of truth. It does seem as though there isn't much fringe stuff anyway and nothing of any note in the last few years and that's all that needs to be established to not stick in anything about it. If there was some stuff that made a notable blip then there would have to be coverage. That's all that was being asked about. Dmcq (talk) 10:15, 4 June 2011 (UTC)[reply]
It seems to me that Wikipedia's aim to be an encyclopedia rather than an indiscriminate collection of knowledge is of note here. We aren't trying to make a "grab your interest" collection. I'm not sure what constitutes a "notable blip", but if the unpublished and out-of-the-way published monographs by relativity deniers about a subject that was discarded thirty or forty years ago is a "notable blip", I'm not sure how you can justify calling this an "encyclopedia article". 140.252.83.232 (talk) 20:32, 4 June 2011 (UTC)[reply]

The big bang is a religion

Nobel Prize laureate Hannes Alfven said the big bang theory is a 'religion'. Dr.Alfven should be quoted in the article. The big bang is fringe science par excellence, that has all the backing of hollywood, and astronomers line up like a flock of geese. 71.98.133.220 (talk) 02:11, 4 June 2011 (UTC)[reply]

This is an article about "tired light". It is not about Hannes Alfven (who, as far as I know, never once commented on the subject) nor is it about the Big Bang except that the redshift-distance relation is a prediction of that particular model. 140.252.83.232 (talk) 07:52, 4 June 2011 (UTC)[reply]
Astronomers better brace themselves. When this next generation of giant telescopes are operational, they will finally be able to clearly see those infant galaxies from the beginning of the big bang, to find that those infant galaxies are really old mature galaxies tens of billions of years older than their big bang. Egg will be on all astronomers' faces, and they will all go running back to look again at those tired light mechanisms. 71.98.133.220 (talk) 12:07, 4 June 2011 (UTC)[reply]
I don't know why people bother building telescopes, it would be so much cheaper just to ask you what they would see. By the way perhaps you could also tell us if the Higgs particle is a real thing or not andi f it is what energy it will be found at? Also could you help me with the results of races? just a couple of races and I'll be set up tidily. I find it very strange that people so often say things about others that describes themselves, why do you believe in tired light to the extent you believe a new experiment will show something totally at odds with what previous evidence has shown? Dmcq (talk) 14:42, 4 June 2011 (UTC)[reply]
How can anyone believe the universe was once the size of a nutshell, and is now expanding faster than the speed of light in all directions ? It is laughable, how can astronomers say such crazy things and keep a straight face. And there is no convincing evidence for it at all, contrary to all their claims. The big bang is a basket case. Wikipedia needs to include published alternative explanations for the cosmological redshift, because one of them will steal the cake. There should be a section in wikipedia's article entitled 'Recent Models'. 71.98.133.220 (talk) 15:55, 4 June 2011 (UTC)[reply]
It is Wikipedia policy that someone else should always 'steal the cake' first, that's what WP:Original research says in effect. We should never be in the advance guard with explanations. If what astronomers say currently is crazy then crazy is what Wikipedia will write about. That's it basically. Dmcq (talk) 16:35, 4 June 2011 (UTC)[reply]
Published criticism of the big bang should be included. And no more excuses. 71.98.133.220 (talk) 16:45, 4 June 2011 (UTC)[reply]
Ridiculous. I can point to "published criticism" of any topic around. In fact, there's this great site called http://www.crank.net/ where you can see examples of all of it. 140.252.83.232 (talk) 20:34, 4 June 2011 (UTC)[reply]
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