Talk:Tishma

Redundant tags? and concerning Bot activities

I have noticed that there are a lot of new tags added to the article, which i felt were redundant, since the information they requested are already given within the article and the given references. Adding the content demanded by those tags would not just make the article extremely repetitive (for example, stating the number of changes introduced by this person to Bangla music...now say, unlike something like album names or number of years active, this is not really a countable quantity that can be listed in numbered bullet points, that would look a little silly), and on top of that, some of the changes introduced have been listed just a few statements down in the article, so wouldn't filling out the tags (and adding references to places that have already been referenced) simply make the article a pain to read? This is already one of the most heavily referenced articles on Bangladeshi personalities on the internet, the sheer number of references are every line are already making it tedious to read, and yet it appears that no matter how many new references are added (with some statements being backed by even five references), some unnecessary and redundant tags are added over existing parts, demanding yet MORE references for content that has already been referenced. I have referred to other wikipedia articles, and in fact have been working on others myself, and I was surprised to note that in many other wikipedia articles, there are full sentences, or groups of sentences, that go by without so much as a single reference. There are entire, very important, wikipedia articles that are often based on ten or less, or sometimes just one, reference. So before adding tags, you may wish to check whether the tag being added is reasonable, whether the content has already been referenced (especially multiple times), and discuss on the talk page about whether certain tags are actually required or not. Faisal961 (talk) 10:45, 7 March 2013 (UTC)

If the information is in the references, then please add it to the article when you remove the tags. Most readers of the English Wikipedia cannot read the references since they are written in bangla. benzband (talk) 11:34, 7 March 2013 (UTC)

For instance: who considers Tishma as being "single-handedly responsible for entirely changing and modernizing the role of Bangladeshi female singers"? What you added ("the Bangladeshi people") is somewhat vague.

As for the other articles, the same applies: unreferenced material may be challenged and/or removed. Additionally, Wikipedia has a special policy regarding living persons articles. benzband (talk) 11:40, 7 March 2013 (UTC)

Thanks, it is a little difficult to evaluate exactly how much information to keep in the article from the references as there is a lot of information out there! Sometimes, the articles state it in that way that, like say, some of the articles states things like 'She is considered by Bangladeshi people as...' so if u do a straight translation, that's what you end up with! :) Anyways... — Preceding unsigned comment added by Faisal961 (talk • contribs) 11:46, 7 March 2013 (UTC)

Then you should say something like "According to Hafez Ahmed she is considered...". This is somebody's opinion about something, not a fact. Jonathan A Jones (talk) 12:34, 7 March 2013 (UTC)

I disagree with that as I don't think individual journalists are supposed to be named as sources, unless they are internationally famous or something, like BBC.

But this brings me to an important question which is not related to the above. Who is this "Hafez Ahmed" person and why has he appeared at least twice in the ref list? He has written neither of the two articles by which his name appears, in fact, one of the articles appears to be by someone named "Haque Faruk Ahmed", it's written there in plain English, and another article is by "Sobij Pratibedok". Another example is an article whose credit has gone to "Khawaja Ashraful Hawak, Md Abdul Wadud" (two separate different names), yet the actual article is written by a "Waliul Mukto". Strangely, these wrong attributions appear to have been done by a Bot or something.... somehow it has given credits to the wrong authors for the listed citations! Why has this happened and how to stop it from happening? Faisal961 (talk) 14:18, 7 March 2013 (UTC)

Archiving and changing talk pages

Please discuss here first before attempting to archive a page. You are strongly advised to read WP:ARCHIVE first, and to use an automatic system such as MiszaBot, as manual archiving lays you open to charges of selective and/or biased archiving.

And please don't rearrange and retitle sections. This is widely considered as rude. Jonathan A Jones (talk) 16:29, 7 March 2013 (UTC)

Yes, i have read that already. What you state is not mentioned there, rather, they themselves have neatly and clearly laid out the process for manually archiving talk pages that have become bulky. There is no such thing mentioned there about "manual archiving laying one open" to any charges, in fact, if that were so then they would not have outlined the process for doing do. And further, there is absolutely no scope for charging one with "biased" archiving, as an archive by definition stores all previous discussions, for anyone to access at any time, so i think if anyone has done anything wrong then it will be there for all to see for themselves. And could you please specify which 're-arranging' or 're-title' may be considered rude? The only archive title i remember changing today was the title of a section I myself had created, and that too was changed to reflect an additional question that I myself had asked. Please be reasonable, I think the only time this can be considered rude is when one has changed a title created by someone else in such a way that, say, it is edited to reflect the opposite view of that inside the thread, such as changing it from, "I love oranges" to "I hate oranges". Faisal961 (talk) 17:26, 7 March 2013 (UTC)

Since you have read WP:ARCHIVE you will be aware that this talk page is well below the size at which archiving is recommended, and as such any decision to archive is unusual. In such circumstances it is highly recommended to discuss archiving before implementing something.

You will also be aware that "Given that archived discussions are immutable, archiving a discussion effectively ends that particular discussion". As there is frequently disagreement as to whether a discussion has ended it is unwise for any participant in a discussion to make this decision. The advantage of using an archive bot is that it makes these descisions in a simple, transparent and objective fashion. Jonathan A Jones (talk) 19:55, 7 March 2013 (UTC)

The reason why changing section titles, even section titles which you wrote yourself is considered rude is that you are changing the topic after other participants in the discussion have made their points, and are thus in effect misrepresenting their views. Please don't do it. Jonathan A Jones (talk) 19:58, 7 March 2013 (UTC)

If you have read WP:ARCHIVE, please note that the size they suggest is a mere suggestion, it is not set in stone. rather, in fact, please note that they also clearly say;

"It is customary to periodically archive old discussions on a talk page when that page becomes too large. Bulky talk pages may be hard to navigate, contain obsolete discussion, or become a burden for users with slow Internet connections or computers. Notices are placed at the beginning of the talk page to inform all editors of an archive."

the issues they mentioned concerning bulky talk pages were all very applicable in my case, so archiving seemed the ideal thing to do. as for the title change issue, i made to my section was from '"redundant tags?"' to '"redundant tags? and concerning bot activities"'. any point previously made under this title, within the limits of reason, could not possibly be "misrepresented" later on by a change like that, and it is not mentioned above either.Faisal961 (talk) 20:39, 7 March 2013 (UTC)

Neutrality and reliable sources

Both appear to be longterm issues, so I've added templates and requested more eyes at the BLP noticeboard. Even if most of the sources check out, this is a bona fide press release right now. 99.137.210.226 (talk) 22:18, 13 March 2013 (UTC)

I have removed the 'primary sources' tag you added, i think you should have checked the reference list correctly before adding the tags. Checkin34z (talk) 22:49, 13 March 2013 (UTC)

It was a reliable sources tag; a primary sources tag would have been inappropriate. I'm going to look again at some of the English sources. 99.137.210.226 (talk) 23:09, 13 March 2013 (UTC)

[1], [2], [3], [4], [5], [6], [7] make up a large portion of the English references, and are all either borderline or not reliable sources; several are blogs, and some are laden with fansite prose. 99.137.210.226 (talk) 23:21, 13 March 2013 (UTC)

check the edit before mine, it said 'primary sources': http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Tishma&oldid=543942609 Checkin34z (talk) 23:26, 13 March 2013 (UTC)

why not remove those sources then? Checkin34z (talk) 23:26, 13 March 2013 (UTC)

I see--for some reason the bot changed the template I added [8]; but you also reverted the previous as well [9]. I'm looking for a broader consensus, in part because of the tone of the article, and because WP:OWNERSHIP may be an issue here. 99.137.210.226 (talk) 23:32, 13 March 2013 (UTC)

yes i just noticed just now that was the work of a bot. and i reverted the previous edit as i could not find a 'contribs' link beside your IP address and was wondering if something was wrong, since the article is mostly sourced from good sources (compared to most Bangladeshi articles anyway) and didn't match with the template. by the way, all the resources you listed are not mostly "borderline"....

[10] links to a UK magazine named whatson.uk [11] links to bangladeshinfo.com which was once the most important (and possibly first) website about Bangladesh. [12] is an important bangladeshi directory. [13] is a news site about Bangladesh entertainment. Checkin34z (talk) 23:40, 13 March 2013 (UTC)

I'd say the first, second, and fourth pieces you noted are--some more than others--puff pieces. 99.137.210.226 (talk) 23:44, 13 March 2013 (UTC)

edited out the references as discussed above. Checkin34z (talk) 23:49, 13 March 2013 (UTC)

whatson.uk and bangladeshinfo.com are very, very reliable sources... could be that the articles appear as puff to you since maybe it could be because the subject of the article did a lot of new things in the country and has many albums and so on? so maybe when it is written out what things she did it looks like that. Checkin34z (talk) 00:04, 14 March 2013 (UTC)

They really are tantamount to public relations releases. I've written a pared down version of the upper portion, removing some repetitious sentences and the footnotes, which can be added in as need be. It's just a suggestion, but I think it says things and moves on, without trying too hard to convince us of her stature:

Tishma is a singer, music composer, songwriter and rock musician. She is the first professional female music composer, arranger, guitarist, keyboardist, rapper and hard rock singer from Bangladesh. Considered an innovator in Bangladeshi popular music, she is credited with changing and modernizing the role of female singers in her country.

Tishma has released ten solo albums to date. She made her debut as a child artist with her album Tara, which was launched in late 2002; this album introduced a number of new music genres to Bangladesh, such as R&B, ballads and funk. She has since been influential to Bangla music trends, and her contributions to music, choreography and stage presentation have effected other Bangladeshi female pop singers. She is the writer, composer and singer of the first original English song by a Bangladeshi female artist. Tishma plays a number of instruments including keyboards and guitars, and also DJ's.

Originally a classically trained musician, Tishma began her musical education at a very early age; she was playing piano by age four, and studied European Classical Music & Music Theory under the Associated Board of Royal Schools of Music, London, and also received "talim" (musical education) in Indian classical music from Ustad Shonjib De, Ustad Akhtar Sadmani & Shampa Reza among others. She also studied Tagore songs from Dr. Anupam of Shantiniketan, and Nazrul Geeti and folk music under Ustads.

Tishma scored record grades in school, with 10 A's in O levels (in one sitting) and 5 A's in A levels, and she is currently studying engineering at a private university, where she is the highest CGPA holder of the department. (Though impressive, I doubt that information about her grades is terribly encyclopedic) Popular both nationally and internationally, she is the youngest artist in Bangla music to have released ten solo albums, and is the Bangladeshi celebrity with the highest number of YouTube views on their music videos, and highest number of Twitter followers. In 2013 she is expected to release her eleventh album, Rockstar, written, tuned and composed by herself.

This preserves the essential information. Just the facts, and it's clear that she's notable. 99.137.210.226 (talk) 00:21, 14 March 2013 (UTC)

Just to say that what is written above is better in that it's a) more concise, there is a lot of repetition in the article; b) more encyclopaedic, less gushing (enthusiastic, fanlike) in tone. I don't think her school grades matter at all, this has nothing to do with her musical career, it's pure puffery, and one of the major problems with the article is that it presents things back-to-front. So at the end of the main section, it discusses her childhood and so on.

So, I am going to find a similar article and try to use it as a model, so that we have an early life section, career, discography and so on. Oh and the only link I clicked on to check something[14] is a blog, written in appalling English and does not support what is written. I think some of 99.137.210.226's text can be used. CaptainScreebo ^Parley! 00:54, 14 March 2013 (UTC)

Agreed about the grades; I'm not keen on the Twitter followers and Youtube hits, either. Feel free to reorganize and trim further, I was using the current construction as a footprint. Thanks, 99.137.210.226 (talk) 01:07, 14 March 2013 (UTC)

This (the proposed article) looks like it was written concisely by one person rather than lines translated word for word from a great bunch of articles, like the current version. some information could be added, some could be taken away. In my opinion, the information about her personal academic education is not greatly essential to the article in terms of music career, but in the context of Bangladesh, however, in Bangladesh the studies are given immense importance by the people, so outside of her music, her being a bright student is also sort of, a very big deal among people, so i guess it can be kept (though isn't there a neater way of mentioning the cgpa in a briefer way? i'll try to suggest a version of the article here using the content of the above. Checkin34z (talk) 01:04, 14 March 2013 (UTC)

Edit suggestions (contd., original edit provided courtesy of 99.137.210.226 (talk) )

Tishma is a Bangladeshi singer, music composer, songwriter and rock musician. She is the first professional female music composer, arranger, guitarist, keyboardist, rapper and hard rock singer from Bangladesh. Considered an innovator in Bangladeshi popular music, she is credited with changing and modernizing the role of female singers in her country.

-Music Career- Tishma has released ten solo albums to date. She made her debut as a child artist with her album Tara, which was launched in late 2002; this album introduced a number of new music genres to Bangladesh, such as R&B, ballads and funk. She has since been influential to Bangla music trends, and her contributions to music, choreography, fashion and stage presentation have influenced other Bangladeshi female pop singers.

Tishma plays a number of instruments including piano, keyboards and guitars, and is also a songwriter, music producer, and DJ. She wrote, composed and sang the first original English song by a Bangladeshi female artist. Popular both nationally and internationally, she is the youngest artist in Bangla music to have released ten solo albums, and is the Bangladeshi celebrity with the highest number of YouTube views on their music videos, and highest number of Twitter followers. In 2013 she is expected to release her eleventh album, Rockstar, written, tuned and composed by herself.

-Education- Tishma spent a large part of her childhood travelling between different countries of Europe, and began her education in UK.

Originally a classically trained musician, Tishma began her musical education at a very early age; she was playing piano by age four, and studied European Classical Music & Music Theory under the Associated Board of Royal Schools of Music, London, and also received "talim" (musical education) in Indian classical music from Ustad Shonjib De, Ustad Akhtar Sadmani & Shampa Reza among others. She also studied Tagore songs from Dr. Anupam of Shantiniketan, and Nazrul Geeti and folk music under Ustads.

Alongside releasing albums while still in school, Tishma also scored record grades as well, with 10 A's in O levels (in one sitting) and 5 A's in A levels. In 2010, she took a media break for college and is currently studying engineering at a private university, where she is the highest CGPA holder of the department.

The albums/video albums could go into a discography section. would suggest one of those column-style boxes though. Checkin34z (talk) 01:28, 14 March 2013 (UTC)

I have to go sleep, will come back tomorrow to help out, okay? I will take some of the above text and try to re-order it based on other similar articles. CaptainScreebo ^Parley! 01:41, 14 March 2013 (UTC)

good night!Checkin34z (talk)

trying this again using suggestions from above discussion such as not mentioning youtube/twitter records and trying to remove some sentences (original edit provided courtesy of 99.137.210.226 (talk) )

Tishma is a Bangladeshi singer, music composer, songwriter and rock musician. She is the first professional female music composer, arranger, guitarist, keyboardist, rapper and hard rock singer from Bangladesh. Considered an innovator in Bangladeshi popular music, she is credited with changing and modernizing the role of female singers in her country.

-Music Career- Tishma has released ten solo albums to date. She made her debut as a child artist with her album Tara in late 2002; the album introduced a number of new music genres to Bangladesh, such as R&B, ballads and funk. She has since been influential to Bangla music trends, and her contributions to music, choreography, fashion and stage presentation have influenced other Bangladeshi female pop singers. Tishma is a songwriter, music producer, DJ, and also plays a number of instruments such as piano and guitar. Tishma is the youngest artist in Bangla music to have released ten solo albums. The first original English song by a Bangladeshi female artist was written, composed and sung by her. In 2013 she is expected to release her eleventh album, Rockstar, written, tuned and composed by herself.

-Education and biography- Tishma spent a large part of her childhood travelling between different countries of Europe, and began her education in UK.

Originally a classically trained musician, Tishma began her musical education at a very early age; she was playing piano by age four, and studied European Classical Music & Music Theory under the ABRSM London She also received talim (musical education) in Indian classical music from Ustad Shonjib De, Ustad Akhtar Sadmani & Shampa Reza among others, and studied Tagore songs from Dr. Anupam of Shantiniketan, and Nazrul Geeti and folk music under Ustads.

Alongside having released albums while still in school, Tishma has scored record grades as well, with 10 A's in O levels (in one sitting) and 5 A's in A levels. (It was a record in Bangladesh at the time and she received some national academic honors for that, but i think it is not necessary to mention that much here.) In 2010, she took a media break for college and is currently studying engineering at a private university, where she holds highest CGPA of the department.

-Discography- how about divide into -Albums- and -Video Albums- Please fill in.... those column-style boxes could be used maybe.

Please fill in your own edits, once we reach a consensus we can move on to adding references. :) Checkin34z (talk) 11:13, 14 March 2013 (UTC)

A vast improvement on the current collection of puff. I would probably cut "Tishma is the youngest artist in Bangla music to have released ten solo albums. The first original English song by a Bangladeshi female artist was written, composed and sung by her." but other than that it looks about right in terms of coverage. The sentence "She also received talim (musical education) in Indian classical music from Ustad Shonjib De, Ustad Akhtar Sadmani & Shampa Reza among others, and studied Tagore songs from Dr. Anupam of Shantiniketan, and Nazrul Geeti and folk music under Ustads." doesn't flow well, but the content is basically OK. Jonathan A Jones (talk) 14:13, 14 March 2013 (UTC)

Well, just when we were making some real progress toward a consensus a new account came in and went to work, leaving behind enough puffery to still give us something to do. 99.137.210.226 (talk) 20:31, 14 March 2013 (UTC)

just now the article has been updated as per discussions here. i will re-add references to the article after some time. Checkin34z (talk) 02:46, 15 March 2013 (UTC)

Links to social media sites from Tishma

This discussion has been copied from Checkin34z's talk page at their request and will be continued here. Worldbruce (talk) 22:58, 18 December 2015 (UTC)

Several times in my edit summaries I have pointed you to Wikipedia guidelines on the inclusion of external links, and in particular the section on official links. Have you read and understood that guideline?

Normally subjects of Wikipedia articles are allowed only one external link to a site of their own. Wikipedia is an encyclopedia, not a fan site or an extension of Tishma's web presence. Tishma's Facebook and YouTube pages are prominently linked from her official home page, so including them in Wikipedia is a violation of the guideline to minimize the number of official links. Allowing a second link, to Twitter, is I think quite generous.

You have repeatedly restored links to Facebook and YouTube despite the fact that I expressed a problem with them. If you have a different understanding of the external link guideline, or believe that Tishima should be an exception to the guideline, or simply disagree with the guideline, please explain here or on the article talk page. Seek a consensus rather than continuing to restore those links unilaterally. Worldbruce (talk) 05:55, 15 December 2015 (UTC)

With respect to this edit, if you don't think the Tishma should link to Twitter, that's fine. But as explained above, the article will not be linked to her Facebook page because her official home page already links there. If you're determined to edit against consensus and link to Facebook, you'll need to get her to change her website so that it doesn't link to Facebook. Worldbruce (talk) 15:33, 17 December 2015 (UTC)

hello, i did not restore and youtube or facebook links "repeatedly" so please don't exaggerate as that is not fair. you said that we should list 2 external links not more so i only changed Twitter to Facebook as i have tried to follow the style of other local wikipedia pages when i edit and most of them list Facebook instead of Twitter. will you please use the talk page yourself also instead of sending me personal messages and attacking my edits? you don't own these pages either right! Checkin34z (talk) 20:02, 18 December 2015 (UTC)

Hi Checkin34z, thank you for your response. Within recent memory you have restored the Facebook and/or YouTube links six times:

1. 7 Nov 2015
2. 21 Nov 2015
3. 22 November 2015
4. 14 December 2015
5. 17 December 2015
6. 18 December 2015

To say that you restored them "repeatedly" is fair and is not an exaggeration.

I did not say that the article should list two external links. I said that allowing two was quite generous, when the guidelines normally allow only one. Furthermore, I explained why in this situation the Facebook and YouTube pages specifically are not allowed according to the guidelines on official links.

Although it is natural to use other Wikipedia pages as examples, there are problems with doing so. Wikipedia is forever a work in progress. It contains high quality content and low quality content (see other stuff exists). Just because another article includes a link to Facebook does not mean that linking to Facebook is okay. It may mean that the other article, like this one, needs improvement to conform to Wikipedia's policies and guidelines. It may also be that the official web page of the subject of the other article does not link to their Facebook page, in which case a link to Facebook is not prohibited by WP:ELMINOFFICIAL (although it may be prohibited by other portions of the guidelines covering external links).

You have clearly invested a lot of time in this article. I can understand that you might feel possessive about it. Wikipedia guidelines are community-agreed best practices for following Wikipedia policies. Violating those guidelines after you have been made aware of them is editing against consensus. Doing so repeatedly to preserve your preferred version of an article is not just disruptive editing, but edit warring.

I hope that the above explanation convinces you to remove the link you added to Facebook. If not, then please remove that link until this discussion is resolved. If you believe we have reached an impasse, there are mechanisms for attracting broader participation in the discussion, which may aid in reaching a consensus as to the way forward. Worldbruce (talk) 23:06, 18 December 2015 (UTC)

hello, thank you for moving the discussion here from my talk page! my cause for adding the Facebook link instead of the Twitter or other links is because it seems to be the most updated source of all the given links about the Tishma topic. The subject's Twitter and even own website are not up to date like Facebook and as a long time follower, I have always noted that other than newspapers and television, my main source for information about Tishma's latest music and works is always the Facebook page. in Bangladesh most of us are not regular users of Twitter and Facebook is the main thing for all of us. Maybe you are not from Bangladesh that's why don't know that Facebook is simply the most widely used site here! :D this is why I think it will be great to use the Faceook page as an external link instead of Twitter. please share your opinion with me and let me know what you think! Checkin34z (talk) 14:27, 19 December 2015 (UTC)