User talk:Jclemens

Welcome, correspondents If you're here because I deleted an article you think should be undeleted, please read this first and remember--Most of the time, I didn't write the text that appears in the deletion summary.
N.B. I don't respond well to either fawning or abuse. Talk to me like a peer, assume good faith, and you'll find I reciprocate in my helpfulness.

Functionary Assistance My ability to help as a checkuser, oversighter, or arbitrator in individual matters is currently limited by my positional and non-Wikipedia obligations. For non-trivial assistance, especially that which requires extensive consideration of private correspondence, you will likely get a faster response by asking another functionary.

Position Essays may help you understand my point of view with regard to...

• Notability of Fictional Topics
• Articles for Deletion
• Blocks
• My RfA Standards

Administrator Goals Doing my best to improve the tiny little wedge in the top center:

Community confidence

I believe you have lost community confidence as a Checkuser and Arbiter. Under what circumstances would you step down? Hipocrite (talk) 10:36, 27 May 2012 (UTC)

I believe the community confidence in you is unshaken, and, in fact, is getting stronger. The use of sniping by any editor or sadmin is something I fear is intended to force you to recuse in cases involving them, which is cointrary to the intent of the pillars of Wikipedia, the policies and guidelines of Wikipedia, and quite importantly contrary to the policies and procedures governing the acts of ArbCom in itself. (bolding intentional) Cheers. Collect (talk) 11:13, 27 May 2012 (UTC) Collect (talk) 11:13, 27 May 2012 (UTC)

Agreed.--Gilderien Chat|List of good deeds 11:23, 27 May 2012 (UTC)

To alleviate Collect's concern, I do not believe you have an obligation to recuse in a case involving me unless it also involves you as a party. I merely wish to determine what would cause you to resign from the committee - a talk page petition? an RFC? a full case? Hipocrite (talk) 11:23, 27 May 2012 (UTC)

By all means start an RFC/U on Mr. Clemens. I suggest you might not appreciate the results. Cheers. Collect (talk) 13:38, 27 May 2012 (UTC)

Speaking as part of the community, I'm not aware of anything which would lead me to lose confidence in Jclemens (as a checkuser or arbitrator or anything else). I suppose you could lay out the details for us, though. Oh, and I think "a talk page petition" would be a pretty silly idea. --Demiurge1000 (talk) 13:34, 27 May 2012 (UTC)

To answer the original question, the circumstances in which I would step down include...

• If I've lost the confidence of the community, and am not reelected.
• If I've lost the confidence of the rest of the committee, and am asked to step down. While the committee may remove me by vote, my threshold for stepping down in the face of peer-based opposition is much lower.
• If I lose the ability to tolerate when consensus is against me. Or, if I find I've lost the will to continue to propose difficult actions that are necessary for the continued health of the encyclopedia. This is a really important point: anyone in a position of "authority" on Wikipedia needs to balance their belief in the appropriateness of their viewpoints with the consensus process, and be able to tell the difference between a few vocal individuals griping and true community consensus. Likewise, if I'm not being opposed by anyone, then I've just become a rubber stamp, exercising no initiative and doing no one any good.
• If my personal circumstances change such that I'm not able to devote the amount of time I believe appropriate to Wikipedia.
• If I ever catch myself thinking of myself as a master of Wikipedia, rather than its servant.

If I'm not doing something "wrong" occasionally, then I must not be trying hard enough. Jclemens (talk) 16:08, 27 May 2012 (UTC)

Oh, another thing to keep aware of: I never have had more than, what, 60% support in the two elections in which I've been elected to the committee. So the fact that a large number of wikipedians do not favor me having a position on the committee (or liked other candidates better, etc.) is simply part of the background under which I serve all Wikipedians. If I wanted to be popular, I wouldn't be first to address problems, proposals, and the like. I'd be a lot more... deliberative, like several of the more popular arbitrators are. While I appreciate the value of such detached consideration and realize its necessity, in isolation it really would not help move cases along, nor identify and solve problems. Inasmuch as the committee ever uses anything resembling Good cop/bad cop, I'm the "bad cop". The analogy isn't really apt, though, since we aren't manipulating any interrogations--we're just trying to get to the right answer for the encyclopedia as expeditiously as possible. I have no illusions that my popularity has anything but plummeted by my doing my job in the way I promised to in my election statements... But that's what I signed up for, and I anticipate discharging those duties to the best of my ability through the end of my elected term. Jclemens (talk) 19:58, 27 May 2012 (UTC)

Nicely put, that balance between pushing forward and leading from behind is always necessary in a community. B^e——C_ritical 21:18, 27 May 2012 (UTC)

I have to agree with Hipocrite here. Anyone who has seen you working of the last few days, in relation to Mathsci and with your strange "apology or re-litigation" question, would have to question your WP:COMPETENCE. Also you just voted in direct opposition to your stated position. You are leaving some very puzzled editors here. Rich Farmbrough, 01:05, 29 May 2012 (UTC).

If we ever decide to commission a survey of previously sanctioned editors and/or ex-administrators' opinions of arbcom members, I'll be sure that you get one, Rich. Cheers, Jclemens-public (talk) 17:22, 30 May 2012 (UTC)

Darn it, JC, have you gone and made yourself inconvenient again? Does the good opinion of Wikipedia Review mean nothing to you? —chaos5023 (talk) 19:39, 30 May 2012 (UTC)

Am I in WR again? Gotta read my press more often... Jclemens-public (talk) 20:33, 30 May 2012 (UTC)

No idea, tbh. Just picking on the lowest-hanging example of entitled neckbeards sitting on the gunwale and sneeringly critiquing the technique of those bailing out the boat. —chaos5023 (talk) 20:42, 30 May 2012 (UTC)

Your conduct

• Leon Gonsalez (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log)
• Jello carotids (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log)

A senior administrator and checkuser Deskana has indicated that the information I provided about these two sockpuppets in 2 recent SPI reports, per  Sounds like a duck quacking into a megaphone to me, was adequate without checkuser or further investigations for identifying this long-term wikihounding socking troll. In these circumstances of blatant immediately identifiable sockpuppetry, what precisely was your reason for spending so much time suggesting otherwise and making sneering innuendos about my conduct vis-a-vis the edits of these blatant sockpuppets? Thanks, Mathsci (talk) 15:16, 28 May 2012 (UTC)

I don't recall the Gonsalez account. Can you link to what I said about it?

On Jello carotids, here's how it went: Somehow, I noticed that you'd reverted someone else in an SPI on yourself. I believe I did that because I saw something else interesting you'd done, and that caused me to look into your recent contributions roughly 48 hours ago. I looked at the reversion you'd made, and found that it contained a plausible assertion of wrongdoing on your part: that is, it asserted you were keeping evidence against other users, after a case had concluded, in violation of WP:UP#POLEMIC (clauses 2 and 3 being the relevant ones). I investigated the assertions and came to the conclusion that they represented actual wrongdoing on your part, which made your action in reverting them impermissible and a further wrong.

WP:BAN says anyone can revert anything a banned user says at any time. But, like "AGF is not a suicide pact", neither is WP:BAN. It was never proper for you, the accused editor, who was guilty of the conduct asserted as improper, to remove the accusation of that impropriety from your own SPI page. That is, at that point, the SPI on Mathsci is not about Jello carotids--whose SPI I never challenged or changed in any way--but about your own improper behavior. Since I found that he had a legitimate basis for complaint against you, I reverted both the removal and the archiving of the case per Wikipedia:BAN#Edits by and on behalf of banned editors, although "on behalf of" a banned editor is tenuous, because I was more interested in your behavior than the presumed-sock edits.

Further, rather than saying "Wow, you're right, someone else should have reverted that, since I did actually maintain that account, but for really good reasons which I'll email Arbcom about", you repeatedly made false statements that you had never reverted in your own SPI. The fact that your two messages after you were caught keeping evidence post-case was auto-discarded by our mailing list software is entirely regrettable, and would have helped clear up the matter many hours sooner, but to summarize, you did three things wrong in this case, the first two of which are each a root cause: had you not done either one, the SPI would not have been unarchived and pursued as it was:

1) You maintained evidence on a "hidden" page after the R&I review was closed,

2) You reverted another user, sockpuppet or not, who made an accurate observation in the proper venue that you had engaged in the condct in 1) and a policy based argument that it was impermissible, and

3) You made materially false statements in the SPI about your conduct in 2).

At any rate, I hope the recap provides enough illustration for why I took action on the basis of a banned user's complaint. Given that ArbCom's got a number of things on its plate right now, an ArbCom motion will not likely be immediately forthcoming--especially since a block is not a likely outcome in light of ArbCom's mailing list failure which delayed our receiving your explanation through no fault of yours. I believe you've received a separate email from one of our mailing list administrators confirming that problem.

You have my most sincere apologies for both the mailing list error and the fact that you've been subjected to repeated harassment by sockpuppets. I sincerely regret that you took action in light of the latter which was itself impermissible. Jclemens (talk) 16:18, 28 May 2012 (UTC)

Jclemens you are an official checkuser. The blatant sockpuppet whom you enabled started by uncollapsing the edits of the first sockpuppet, whom I have mentioned several times, including in the recent email to arbcom (it's has been re-sent and forwarded to you). That first sockpuppet was indefinitely blocked by FPaS for adding trolling comment to WP:AN about Echigo mole and all his past manifestations. One account not mentioned by me was Junior Wrangler, but the socks decided nevertheless to inform him of the WP:AN report. So, per  Sounds like a duck quacking into a megaphone to me, the coupled contributions, one even making reference to the previously blocked account, deafeningly screamed "Echigo mole." Everybody else agreed, including Deskana. So with your own experience you also should have noticed that without any effort. But you chose not to and stubbornly took the side of the blatant troll, ignoring the previous account he had to abandon after it had been indefinitely blocked. Once the banned editor was identified, his edits could be removed anywhere per WP:BAN and WP:DENY. An SPI report is not necessary, if the sockpuppetry is blatant, which was the case here (an AN thread about Echigo mole).

I have no alternative hidden accounts since they were all declared unambiguously on the user pages and their edits were purely in user space. The userpage Alternative-mathsci for example has "as it says". You are presumably joking, as MastCell has already said, when you suggest that the account Aixoisie involved any level of concealment because of the dots between the letters of Mathsci. Other administrators understood that I used that device because of the previous actions of Echigo mole (as Southend sofa) who requested an SPI report on 29 March. Did you even look at it? The existence of a list of rough diffs in an alternative account was mentioned explicitly on the arbitration review pages on 27 March and must have prompted Echigo mole to search for it.

Did you read that comment on the talk page of the evidence page of the review then? If you did and you now have such severe misgivings about gathering diffs to prepare evidence (OMG what a crime once evidence has been explicitly requested!), why did you not mention that then? You had ample time and, as other administrators have said, if you wanted to know about the account then you could quite easily have requested information then. But apparently you did not object to Alternative-mathsci then; but now do object violently to the almost identical account Aixoisie.

If on the other hand you did not read that comment, that is not a good sign. I don't see the difference between Alternative-mathsci and Aixioisie. When Echigo mole's sock Southend sofa filed the first SPI report on 29 March, three other administrators looked at the account Alternative-mathsci (Dougweller, Amalthea, DeltaQuad) with all the lists of rough diffs before they were deleted and moved. They found no problem. The lists of rough diffs were preparatory pages for evidence which was hard to compile. Multiple other editors including almost all arbitrators recognize Echigo mole as a malevolent editor, set on creating trouble. You apparently found it convenient not to recognize that; that has resulted in you acting as his enabler, possibly unwittingly. Old-time administrators dealt with the report of Southend sofa, dismissing it immediately; your treatment of the almost carbon copy report of Jello carotids was leagues apart. There was drama-creating rhetoric, a draconian full protection of files (totally unnecessary for future scrutiny), a checkuser hold on the SPI report with repeated claims of "abusive alternative accounts". No other administrators have agreed with you so far and, when they disagreed at the 2nd SPI report by the banned user, you even made threats towards them by trying to assert some higher authority. Enabling banned disruptive users just brings this project into disrepute. Splitting hairs over which particular edits of banned editors can be reverted is open to debate: if there is a list of multiple trolling edits, I don't think in great detail about the difference between each edit (as the timing of my reverts shows). Future Perfect at Sunrise deleted the whole SPI report with an edit summary indicating that it had been posted by a banned editor. Instead of having a calm discussion with FPaS about that very dubious SPI report, you chose to follow a drama-creating route. Almost all administrators have disagreed with the path you followed and you have ignored them. Mathsci (talk) 17:53, 28 May 2012 (UTC)

Three things you should have said above, but didn't:

1) "I'm sorry for retaining evidence after the case review was closed; it was improper for me to do so in-any on-wiki location"

2) "I regret reverting that among the sockpuppet edits I reverted, was that of a legitimate complaint about my actions in retaining evidence after the case review was closed. It gave the appearance that I was trying to hide something, which I was not--I was just being so thorough in reverting the edits that I failed to notice that the one edit was in an SPI on me."

3) "I regret that my statements about not reverting the sock in my own SPI were inaccurate. I was thinking you'd confused my reversion in the Echigo Mole SPI, but I was mistaken."

And, for good measure, you might add...

4) "I should have explicitly declared Aixoisie to the arbitration committee per WP:SOCK#NOTIFY as soon as it was created; while not required, adopting that best practice would have avoided this misunderstanding"

Until and unless you can accept that your actions caused this problem, there's really nothing else to say here. You're focusing on things that aren't even in dispute (of course it was a sock) or simply aren't relevant to your own misconduct. Jclemens (talk) 18:11, 28 May 2012 (UTC)

Now you are demanding apologies form Mathsci, yet you won't apologize for outright lies about me? Some mistake surely. Rich Farmbrough, 19:39, 28 May 2012 (UTC).

Well, I neither demanded anything from him, nor refused to apologize to you. I asked above if an apology is more important than re-litigating your case, and you declined to answer. If you'd like your apology, simply clarify that that, rather than any relitigation of a closed case, is what you're most interested in, and you'll have it. Cheers, Jclemens (talk) 21:52, 28 May 2012 (UTC)

This is a rather pathological position. Re-litigation is not in your gift, and an apology would be good for you not me. So why do you insist on repeating this odd question? Rich Farmbrough, 01:02, 29 May 2012 (UTC).

Jonathan I understand you're a graduate student and it's great to see how full of ideas you are. I am not sure what statement I would make. All your suggestions seem to be nutty and ill-conceived. I have no idea what put those silly ideas in your head. I might possibly say, "I am disappointed in the actions of Jonathan Clemens. He appears to be nursing a grudge following his re-election to arbcom and his mistaken trust in two users, now both site-banned from wikipedia, who were involved in a calculated deception. Jonathan's reaction has been to show that I have been involved in an even worse act of deception in meticulously chronicling their actions. I have gathered diffs in clearly marked alternative accounts, which he has repeatedly described as "abusive". Multiple other adminstrators have expressed disagreement with him but he has attempted to assert his own greater authority over them." But would it really be necessary to say that? Best in the circumstances to say nothing. Mathsci (talk) 03:59, 29 May 2012 (UTC)

The problem with your proposed statements is that they assume bad faith in me, while mine assume the best faith of you. I've dropped the arguable bits, such that the facts as I stated them really aren't in dispute: You kept evidence after the case was over, you reverted a sockpuppet who pointed that out, and you still haven't owned up to making false statements about doing so. And, for the record, I neither hold grudges nor play favorites. That Ferahgo/CO adequately helped out with parsing evidence in a prior case gained them zero special treatment, just as your predominantly accurate and helpful efforts identifying problematic editors in certain areas don't give you a pass. Jclemens (talk) 04:13, 29 May 2012 (UTC)

Unfortunately once you start relying on the edits of a long term abusive editor like Echigo mole to support your arguments, any assumptions of good faith disappear through a large hole in the ground. You've been told that repeatedly by administrators and your reaction has been WP:IDHT. Why all the needless drama. Jonathan? The page protections, the restoration of a bogus SPI and your own bullying of administrators and me as if you are some kind of Uebermensch? No you have sought to portray me in the worst possible light you could, taking advantage of a long-term trolling sock. No thanks, matey. Mathsci (talk) 04:19, 29 May 2012 (UTC)

One of the problems the real-life police have to deal with all the time is that many of the witnesses to and victims of crimes are themselves criminals, prone to lie to the police when it is to their advantage, yet real life authorities work within this world effectively. In this case, your initial inappropriate retention of material was spotted by a serial, abusive sockmaster... but that doesn't make the observation inaccurate. You act as if I've somehow elevated Echigo Mole to sainthood and handed him a full pardon for finding something you'd really done wrong. On the contrary--he's still banned, still going to be reverted every time he appears, and as far as I'm concerned nothing has changed about his status. It's your status, (can I use your first name here, since you've used mine?), that has been diminished by your conduct. Jclemens (talk) 04:40, 29 May 2012 (UTC)

Did you read the statement about the alternative account that I wrote on March 27? Thanks, Mathsci (talk) 04:44, 29 May 2012 (UTC)

As for using my first name, would you even dare do that? Your first name has been used elsewhere on wikipedia, but if you prefer me not to use it, I won't. Please just say so. Thanks, Mathsci (talk) 04:51, 29 May 2012 (UTC)

Did you declare the name to ArbCom in email prior to its discovery? No, unless far more mail is missing than previously ascertained. Did you seek or receive permission to keep evidence on-wiki past the close of the case? Not to the best of my knowledge. Please, correct me if I'm wrong on either point.

As far as the names business goes, I don't recall where I've ever posted my first name on enwiki. I know others with whom I've corresponded elsewhere have used a first name to refer to me. Jclemens (talk) 04:53, 29 May 2012 (UTC)

You're not answering the question. Your were told explicitly on wikipedia on 27 March that alternative account existed. They were clearly labelled and restricted to userspace. The notification was very visible on the arbcom review page. You or any other arbitrator could have requested to have the account identified in private if you required. You did nothing then. As far as I am aware, there is no automatic obligation to send any notification to arbcom about alternative accounts. Which piece of wikipedia policy are you citing there? If any arbitrator had wanted to know details of the account, I would have told them, as I have done now. But nobody asked. The existence of these account does not seem problematic and nor does your qulifier "abusive" apply. Because of Echigo mole's first trolling SPI report on 29 March, the first alternative account was looked at by 3 administrators, including a checkuser, and they found no problem. So why are you are making these claims of "abusive alternative accounts" continually? Mathsci (talk) 05:07, 29 May 2012 (UTC)

Besides if you reslly believed that the accounts were abusive and created to mislead and deceive other wikipedians, you would have blocked those accounts and mine. If you did that, however, you would not remain an administrator for very much longer. Please stop bullying me. Thanks, Mathsci (talk) 05:11, 29 May 2012 (UTC)

I never denied that you mentioned an alternative account; I've stated that you didn't declare the name to ArbCom. This is primarily important because it kept me looking into the allegations. One of the first things I did after I spotted your reversion on your SPI was to search my Wikipedia mail archives for the name Aixoisie--and I didn't find it. Had I found it, my review of your reverting an accusation against yourself on your SPI page would have probably ended right there. But I didn't find it, so I kept looking, and found the quite extensive copies of evidence that were the problem. If you will, maintaining lists of diffs absent a current proceeding was the main problem, and the fact that it was as lightly linked and declared as possible was merely the aggravating circumstance surrounding the discovery of that improper use. You may well have been trying to hide it from Echigo Mole, which you appear to have failed at, but you also gave no evidence of having declared it to ArbCom. Had you done so, someone might have reminded you to delete the evidence pages. Jclemens (talk) 05:16, 29 May 2012 (UTC

If you or anybody else wanted to know the name of the account you have my email and could have asked. There's no rule about declaring accounts to arbcom if they're clearly labelled. Certainly any trusted editor would have been told, if they had asked. Ferahgo seems to be posting below once more through her proxy-editor TrevelyanL85A2. Why did they choose your page? Were they hoping that you would block me? That is certainly how it looks. Ferahgo's claim to have left wikipedia behind seems not to have been genuine, like much of what she has written. Mathsci (talk) 05:28, 29 May 2012 (UTC)

I'm still not convinced that Ferahgo and Captain Occam are indeed separate persons. Jclemens (talk) 05:30, 29 May 2012 (UTC)

How interesting. Mathsci (talk) 05:37, 29 May 2012 (UTC)

Banned user posts

I would like arbcom to make a ruling about when it's necessary to revert posts from a banned user, and when it's acceptable to not do that. I had another issue with this yesterday when Mathsci and one other person tag-teamed to remove a post by Echigo Mole from my user talk, after I'd made it clear I didn't mind it being there and that I didn't want Mathsci editing my page. This also was before the sockpuppet had been blocked or tagged by anyone besides Mathsci. They claimed their actions were demanded by policy, but that doesn't seem right: I thought I had the right to determine things like this about my own userspace.

In the edit summary for one of his reverts, Mathsci suggested I ask a member of arbcom about this, which also confuses me because I know individual arbitrators don't have special authority when they aren't speaking for the whole committee. Is there a way to get the committee to weigh in on this issue?TrevelyanL85A2 (talk) 05:12, 29 May 2012 (UTC)

The relevant guidance is at Wikipedia:BAN#Edits by and on behalf of banned editors. In short, while Mathsci and other editors have the right to revert banned user edits, you have the ability to re-revert them into Wikipedia, at which point they become your responsibility, so be very careful about potential problems with them. The advisability of this is questionable, but you're asking for the rules, and there you have them. Oh, and no, no one is REQUIRED to revert a banned user, so they do have a choice not to. If you asked everyone inclined to leave your talk page alone, and yet they continued to revert banned user(s) posting there, that would be an interesting situation, that I don't see any precedent for... but I believe the community would likely let BAN dominate, since by definition conversations with a banned user can't involve improving the encyclopedia. So, now you have my opinion as well.

My advice on the other hand: if you want to carry on a conversation with a banned user, use email. There are free and anonymous email providers everywhere. Much less hassle for everyone involved. Jclemens (talk) 05:23, 29 May 2012 (UTC)

Tag team? Nice one, Ferahgo. Mathsci (talk) 05:54, 29 May 2012 (UTC)

Together, you and Johnuniq made the same revert four times in less than a day. Tag teaming is working together to revert more than three times in a day, as you did.

You asked me to post here. You said to ask a member of arbcom about this, and Jclemens was following these issues. But even when I'm taking your advice, I see there's nothing I can do to make you drop your battleground attitude against me, or these accusations of proxying for other people that you know aren't supported by any finding of fact. You also reverted my talk page again after I asked you to stop editing it.

What would I have to do to make you leave me alone, and stop editing my userspace? You have already been admonished for battlefield conduct, and the right thing for you to do now would be to drop the issue, not to keep pursuing it. — Preceding unsigned comment added by TrevelyanL85A2 (talk • contribs) 08:15, 29 May 2012 (UTC)

WP:Tag team means coordinated editing. Unless you have some proof of coordinated editing, please don't use the term. As for posting here, your purpose seems to be very similar, almost indistinguishable, to recent postings on arbitrator pages of Ferahgo's other friend SightWatcher. Policy is clear enough about banned users: just follow the links to WP:BAN and WP:DENY that have been quoted to you several times. If you want some form of special treatment, you can I suppose present your case at Requests for amendment. But since your own silence since January during the arbitration proceedings has been unaccounted for, your sudden miraculous return to wikipedia and confrontational statements here might not be a factor that would speak in your favour. Your own conduct here, once more giving the appearance of acting as a proxy-editor, seems to be a continuation of the calculated deception that resulted in your topic ban. Please try not to give that appearance in future. Thanks, Mathsci (talk) 08:57, 29 May 2012 (UTC)

I don't know what to do here. I don't think I should cooperate with Mathsci trying to reopen the review after it's closed, but trying to avoid the issue also didn't work.

Jclemens, please give me your advice. I have been trying to avoid drama at Wikipedia since it came and found me in my user talk in January. That's why I stopped editing everything related to race and intelligence in January, months before I was topic banned. But this drama still came to find me in my user talk when I had been inactive for four months. I understand now that trying to avoid this issue isn't enough, and neither is asking Mathsci to stay off my user talk, but I don't know what I need to do to avoid this.

More generally, I would like to know what if anything arbcom is doing about Mathsci's continued battleground attitude, after it didn't stop when he was admonished for it. This makes the editing environment on R&I articles toxic, and it also makes it impossible for people like me to escape from R&I drama when we want to. I know arbcom cares about these things, but their efforts to stop it seem half-hearted. --TrevelyanL85A2 (talk) 09:40, 29 May 2012 (UTC)

• Note the similarlity of the above edit with previous postings of SightWatcher. [1][2][3] Two editors speaking with the same voice. The proxy-editing still seems to be going on after Ferahgo's site ban. TrevelyanL85A2 has already broken his extended topic ban by writing "This makes the editing environment on R&I articles toxic". TrevelyanL85A2 is not allowed to discuss R&I matters anywhere, unless he has been mentioned and the topic is being discussed. No such matter was being discussed, just technical matters concerning banned editors and alternative accounts. TrevelyanL85A2 inserted himself in a thread here where he was not being discussed and has made the above inflammatory statements about the area of his topic ban. Someone could easily report him now at WP:AE. Mathsci (talk) 09:52, 29 May 2012 (UTC)

I wouldn't oppose such an outcome. Asking me for advice on how to proceed is not a license to continue problematic behavior that led to sanctions in the first place... And I'll note that that asking me for advice was a favourite tactic of FtA/CO. But again, there was also no particular need for you to join in, Mathsci, as the poster is getting exactly as much support as he's ever going to get from me here, and your joining in has probably prompted back-and-forth which otherwise would not have appeared. Jclemens (talk) 12:59, 29 May 2012 (UTC)

Your untruths

Let me perfectly clear, I have no intention, now or in the future, to sue you or other Wikipedia editors for slander or libel made on Wikipedia. That does not mean I will not clearly label it as such. Running to NLT for protection from your own behaviour is not becoming. Rich Farmbrough, 19:46, 28 May 2012 (UTC).

That's good to hear, and what I expected. I further expect you won't object to keeping a more neutral tone on the subject heading in order to avoid confusing people who don't actually read this notice. Frankly, I'm concerned that that edit almost seemed an attempt at suicide-by-arbcom, and encourage you to avoid such escalation. By all means, take a break if you're not feeling up to participating appropriately at the moment, and come back when you're feeling like creating content. The fact you still insist on calling illustrations "untruths" is something I don't find promising, but if that's what helps you work through this time, I'll agree to disagree on it. Cheers, Jclemens (talk) 21:49, 28 May 2012 (UTC)

False illustrations are false. I'm sure it's usual to quietly let minor falsehoods slip away, into the mists of time, but I have found that on Wikipedia they are then dragged up years later and believed by no less august personages as Arbitrators. Therefore I intend be active in correcting them whenever I see them occur, if this makes a little less easy to get on with than the old Rich who would have just said, "sure you want to make stuff up, go ahead, it doesn't affect me" then that is the fault of those who promulgate and believe such tosh. Rich Farmbrough, 00:57, 29 May 2012 (UTC).

So, would you like me to go back and edit my statement to make it more accurate, like I asked your input on a week ago? Oh, wait... you've already done that, rather than specify what you believe would have been an adequate substitution--an edit I did not contest, I'll note. At any rate, since you've deleted the illustrative statement that you believe to have painted you in an inappropriately false light and have yet to specify an apology as your most desired outcome, I think we're done here. Again, you have my best wishes for your continued contributions to the encyclopedia, if you ever choose to focus on doing so rather than on attempting to find fault in the processes and persons responsible for sanctioning you. Jclemens (talk) 04:23, 29 May 2012 (UTC)

Jclemens, you make the accusation that he is performing cosmetic edits using AWB on his main account; you make the accusation that he has misused AWB on his main account and that desysop is necessary to stop Rich Farmbrough from continue abusing AWB on his main account - either you are able to show diffs that he has done that, or you have to withdraw that accusation. Either YOU show that your remark has merit, you withdraw the false illustration and replace it with a proper one, or you fail to do so and withdraw the whole remark. It is absurd to ask for Rich (or of me, or of a random other user) to find a replacement for your wrong example. Could you please provide a proper example for that statement? Thank you. --Dirk Beetstra ^{T C} 06:34, 29 May 2012 (UTC)

I noted above that Rich has already removed the statement in question and failed to ask for an apology when asked if that was his most desired outcome. As far as I'm concerned this topic is closed. Cheers, Jclemens (talk) 12:55, 29 May 2012 (UTC)

I'm not attempting to find fault. I am having my face ground into the faults by the jackboot of process, and the gauntlet of personalities. I am pleased to see that modifications to process are already underway. My primary, if somewhat localized aim is to remove the obstacles that have unreasonably and against the spirit of the Wiki been thrown in the way of contributing to the encyclopaedia. I would like to say that once that is done I will continue to press for reform, stand for ArbCom, re-write policy, get more active on AN/I and DR, but the truth is I will most likely be far too busy contributing to the 40% that is content to continue my involvement with the 60% that is dramah. I really dislike these long drawn out battles, where people are out to do one another down. It seems to me a friendly approach and a thoughtful approach resolves 99% of disputes before they even become disputes. And indeed this is born out by experience. Rich Farmbrough, 16:28, 30 May 2012 (UTC).

Proforma

You may have your hands full and have no need to chime in, but I did mention you (without naming you) at a new thread at ANI to which I was invited. JJB 19:37, 30 May 2012 (UTC)

Thanks for the notification. Jclemens-public (talk) 20:00, 30 May 2012 (UTC)

RfC: Should the summary style guideline quote WP:Notability and if so in what place

You are invited to join the discussion at Wikipedia talk:Summary_style#RfC: Should the summary style guideline quote WP:Notability and if so in what place.

This RfC is to decide the business JJB has wanted. I added a third option that I believe reflects your concerns about the matter. Dmcq (talk) 19:16, 1 June 2012 (UTC)

I've responded there, thanks. Jclemens (talk) 02:12, 2 June 2012 (UTC)

Ankheg

I see you came up with a number of sources in the last AFD, so I wanted to notify you that this one has been nominated again. 129.33.19.254 (talk) 17:30, 5 June 2012 (UTC)

Noted and voted, but I trust you notified every past AfD participant, right? Jclemens (talk) 01:16, 6 June 2012 (UTC)

Well, despite Folken de Fanel’s claims to the contrary, I was only contacting those who had provided sources in the previous AFD (you and Casliber) because I was hoping you might be able to find more. Since you think it is a good idea – and you asked nicely – I will notify participants in the previous AFD. 129.33.19.254 (talk) 14:10, 6 June 2012 (UTC)

Thanks for that. See WP:CANVASS for a bit more on Wikipedia's expectations for notifications. While it might seem logical to only notify people who've actually provided sources, that might create an appearance of bias. Cheers, Jclemens (talk) 15:47, 6 June 2012 (UTC)