User talk:Jimbo Wales

NOTE: There are many discussions going on here that would probably be more productive over at commons. If you're interested in commons policy, the best way to influence it is to participate at commons. :-) Let's gradually (no need to dramatically shut things down here) try to migrate discussions of commons over to commons.--Jimbo Wales (talk) 15:31, 15 May 2010 (UTC)

(Manual archive list)

Més que un usuario award

Hi Jimbo! I'm Gabriele Deulofleu from it.wiki, in this season will deliver the Award G. Deulofleu - Més que un usuario and I need a great host for my event, you have no job, I will do everything, I just need your permission to write your name as a special guest. If you agree just send me a confirmation-message in talk, and you add in the section madrina/padrino, I would love to have you with me virtually, Ciao. talk 22:52, 5 June 2010 (CEST) —Preceding unsigned comment added by 94.36.255.165 (talk)

List of Scientologists RFC

Hi Jimbo- I am the person who started the RFC on the List of Scientologists. Thank you for participating in the RFC. I suggested that given the controvery around scientology and the real world consequences of being associated with it, that the best criteria for inclusion on the list is to have reliable sources showing people self-identifying as scientologists. There seems to be a lot of support for this approach on the RFC thus far. In the mean time however, two users Cirt and Coffeepusher done over 100 edits on the list in the last 48 hours. Someone else suggested that they were advancing an agenda. I hate to put myself in the middle of it but I am now inclined to agree. In your comment you suggested that the two sides are talking past each other. I think it is more a case of one side is ignoring the main question of the RFC. I read the policy about disruptive editing and saw WP:IDIDNTHEARTHAT. That certainly seems to be the case on this list: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Talk:List_of_Scientologists#Please_leave_as_a_list_until_the_RfC_process_has_completed I hope you would be willing to come back and weigh in on this specific issue. Thank you for your time and consideration. Elmmapleoakpine (talk) 03:47, 10 June 2010 (UTC)

Jimbo, Jayen466 (talk · contribs) and I have come to an agreement regarding the nature of the list page, and I agree with his recent comments, [1] and [2]. Jayen466 commented on the formatting changes that I have made to the article, "Nice job on the table formatting too; must have been a lot of work." Jayen466 commented with regards to an amicable solution, having a subsection on the page for those that participated in courses, "We now have a section on course participants who have not been identified as (former) Scientologists; I think this is probably the right way to go here." I agree with this. This is the best and most logical way forward. :) Cheers, -- Cirt (talk) 04:24, 10 June 2010 (UTC)

I think that this is the bare minimum that is necessary. It is not at all clear to me that a listing of course participants is actually in any way encyclopedic, but I will have to review the list and see what I think of it. I have friends, now in Wikipedia, who at age 18 or 20 or whatever got persuaded to take a single Scientology course, found that they weren't interested (or, perhaps, found the whole thing to be fundamentally wrong), and never went back. Such people might, at some point, mention this to a reporter and it gets mentioned somewhere. It would be absolutely wrong to refer to such a person as a former Scientologist, but it would also be irrelevant and pointless to put them on a list.

Do we treat other religions in this way? Do we have a list of people who have attended a Catholic mass? How about a list of people who attended a Catholic baptism prep course of some kind? I just don't see the relevance of such trivia. It certainly isn't likely to be relevant to the biography of someone (unless it *is* relevant, i.e. they identify the class and rejection of Scientology as a turning point in life, for example). And it seems not very relevant to Scientology.

But I will review the list and think about it more - my opinion here is unsettled.

I should add that, of course, I'm interested in this issue as an ordinary editor and as one of dozens of examples that I like to study when I think about BLP issues - but I'm not making any kind of special ruling and people shouldn't cite this opinion of mine as policy or as being particularly special in any way.--Jimbo Wales (talk) 16:34, 10 June 2010 (UTC)

Addendum: Having reviewed now the 4 who are listed as "Course participants" I don't have a problem with it. Enough information is given to see why it is relevant to the lives of the people involved (although in most cases, I would argue that it doesn't belong in their biography) and why it is relevant to our understanding of Scientology as a movement (i.e. what do some prominent people say about why they took a course, and why they didn't go on to become a Scientologist).

I am still concerned about the abstract case I mentioned before. I am thinking now of my own life: if I had taken a course when I was 20 (I didn't!), it would be completely irrelevant to anything today.--Jimbo Wales (talk) 16:40, 10 June 2010 (UTC)

"Having reviewed now the 4 who are listed as "Course participants" I don't have a problem with it. Enough information is given to see why it is relevant to the lives of the people involved". Thank you. I agree with this. We can deal with "abstract cases", when and if they crop up, though I do not foresee that occurring. The issue is whether or not secondary sources satisfying WP:RS and WP:V provide enough context as you have described, and this is satisfied in these cases. Cheers, -- Cirt (talk) 17:19, 10 June 2010 (UTC)

Invitation to the July 2010 Guild of Copy Editors Backlog Elimination Drive

GOCE backlog elimination drive chart up to 31 May Hi Jimmy, You may recall that I invited you to register for the Guild of Copy Editors May 2010 Backlog Elimination Drive. You were pretty busy and did not respond to the invitation. I wanted to let you know that during that drive, we cleared all the {{copyedit}} tags from 2007, and in this next drive, starting in July, we aim to clear all of 2008. It would draw significant attention to the project if you signed up on our participation page, and after the drive begins, symbolically copyedited a single article. As I know you're busy, I'm sure we can find a short one for you. I know that you prefer "quality over quantity," and this will significantly increase the quality of the articles currently available. The event page is at Wikipedia:WikiProject Guild of Copy Editors/Backlog elimination drives/July 2010. Please consider accepting our invitation. ɳorɑfʈ Talk! 07:21, 10 June 2010 (UTC)

Content noticeboard discussion

I've started a content noticeboard discussion on the best way to handle explicit images of bondage practices. I think we have three choices here in en:Wikipedia -- display them openly (the status quo), put them into a collapsible gallery, or replace them with a link to a relevant Commons category. Each of these has potential advantages and drawbacks. As you've expressed an interest in these issues in the past, I thought you might like to comment. --JN466 12:11, 10 June 2010 (UTC)

Planned rev. 67559

Hallo Jimbo. This revision should not be introduced. That is a feature which violates not only WP:NPOV – how one language in an international project can be more important than another? – it's also dangerous. It is endorsing – very surely unintended but indeed it does – chauvinism, racism and discrimination. Therefore such a software feature should not be activated. Please consult this with the WMF board and please do everything that such (or any similar) mechanism will never be part of the software. Thanks. --Matthiasb (talk) 16:10, 10 June 2010 (UTC)

Could you tell me what the feature does and why you are opposed to it? I read the page but I didn't understand. "dangerous", "chauvinism, racism, and discrimination" - I'm not sure that your outrage is helpful here. Don't tell me what conclusion I should reach: give me an NPOV summary of what the situation is. :-) --Jimbo Wales (talk) 16:23, 10 June 2010 (UTC)

The new feature limits the interwiki links in the left column on five entries (if there are no more than eight, then all will be shown). So who and what determines which iw-language-links will be provided? The biggest WPs per number of articles? Per number of active users? Per page views? Per browser presetted values? E.g. Reichstag (building) (let's climb together) exists in about 40 WP languages. If the per default output is limited to five, say DE, EN, FR, ES and PL for all other language versions another click will be necessary to open a drop down.

Why? Is the Bengali or Mandarin chinese language less important than any of the above? Is any of the about 33 remaining language lesser then any of those mentioned in the example?

Do we really want discussions why per default (in my example) PL is shown directly but RU or PT could be reached only after clicking those small triangles for pulling down the whole list? I don't think that Wikipedia should do anything what could imply that there might be class A+ WP language versions and class B wp language versions. --Matthiasb (talk) 16:54, 10 June 2010 (UTC) (having tried my best to report the issue NPOV but having failed)

If you take a look at the comments in the diff you link to, you'll see this:

+		// This is a list of languages in order of Wikipedia project size. This is the lowest fallback for choosing
+		// which links to show in the primary list. Ideally the browser's accept-language headers should steer this
+		// list, and we should fallback on a site configured (MediaWiki:Common.js) list of prefered languages.

I think that answers your questions on how the links will be prioritised. It seems like a good method to me. It's not about determining the importance of different languages. It is about determining their utility. Clearly, the best way to determine which languages will be useful to a user is to let them tell you, via their accept-language headers. Failing that, you let each project determine which other languages their users typically speak (this isn't very useful for English, but it is for much other languages). That should never fail, but a good programmer would never make that assumption, so a fallback is included, based on which projects are most likely to have good articles on a topic (project size is a very crude metric for that, but since it shouldn't be used much it isn't worth the effort of coming up with a better one). --Tango (talk) 17:06, 10 June 2010 (UTC)

So to make sure I understand: if I show up on a page, 5 languages (chosen either by the project in the usual consensus way, or if they haven't done that yet, chosen by simple algorithm) will be displayed by default, but to see the rest, I'll need to click on the little triangle to expand the list?--Jimbo Wales (talk) 17:10, 10 June 2010 (UTC)

It has received much discussion. See hiding interlanguage links by default is a Bad Idea, part 2 - - WAS 4.250 (talk) 17:33, 10 June 2010 (UTC)

Appeal

I want to appeal to Jimbo Wales as a last resort, please. I have been permanently banned from es.wikipedia es.wikipedia don't have procedures to protect against arbitrariness and has installed a single thought. In my expulsion there has been no discussion or evidence, there has been coercion from blog. Mi removal is only due to my thinking, there have been acts against wikipedia or their rules, only talk. Wikipedia is part of an American foundation and america is a country of freedom of thought and talk. The local Wikipedia can not be different. More information.Mjoseph (talk) 16:37, 10 June 2010 (UTC)

We are two peas in a pod, Jimbo

Jimbo, I'm with you, man. This is an educational project, but one glance at the images being added to the site shows that people, under the guise of "Wikipedia is not censored", have decided to turn the website into an ever growing pile of smut.

Wikipedia in many ways is a democratic institution, but democracy is like a fire. It's the backbone of civilization, heating homes, cooking food, and active in our internal combustion engines that transport us on our daily commutes. But that fire must be contained and controlled. When fire spreads uncontrollably it is destructive. Democracy, too, while good for our daily lives, is destructive when not controlled. That's why the ancient Greeks feared a mobocracy.

That's why the founders of America limited democracy to a representative form. That's why the unbridled fire of democracy now plagues us with the Tea Party. It's why we're plagued with reality TV. And now it's why Wikipedia is overrun with vandalism, pornography, and laymen posing as defenders of free speech.

Just yesterday the voters of South Carolina made Alvin Greene, a bum with no job and pending felony sexual misconduct charges, the Democratic candidate for the Senate. The mob is out of control, ousting established leaders for bums. Now you to are seeing your power taken away and thrown into the hands of bums, many of whom also don't work and would like to turn Wikipedia into a virtual repository of sexual misconduct.

I support you, and I support you not giving up your power, but using your power to be a check against the mob. If not you, then someone or some small group that still has its heads on straight, must be the voice of reason, must be the philosopher-kings, the Supreme Court, if you will, when the layman-kings of Wikipedia attempt to tear down in days what took years to build. Keep fighting the good fight, my good friend. Maypigeon of Liberty (talk) 17:51, 10 June 2010 (UTC)

I've not given up any power - be careful what you read in the media, they often misunderstand what is going on around here. :-) --Jimbo Wales (talk) 20:59, 10 June 2010 (UTC)

Ah, South Carolina. The same state that has an adulterer as a governor, Jim DeMint as a senator (can't really make jokes about Jim DeMint, as the best comedy is the fact he's Jim DeMint), and had the Confederate Flag on the State Capitol until very recently. Greene's just par for the course, really. That said, there is a reason why we say that "Wikipedia is not censored"; if we did, we'd be removing relevant images from articles based on the whims of the prudish; something we learnt full well not so long back. That said, we do go over the top... perhaps we should instruct people to not use more images than absolutely necessary? It's a good idea, and not one that could be solely limited to articles about sex. Sceptre ^(talk) 18:31, 10 June 2010 (UTC)

Don't we do that already ? Just because we HAVE images, does not mean we insert all of them in a single article. Having images however is needed in order to make good editorial selections of images. This is something many people are forgetting. Having 40 images of vulva's is not a problem. Using 40 images of vulva's in 1 article is. —TheDJ (talk • contribs) 19:59, 10 June 2010 (UTC)

I too must confess that I was misled by the media into believing that you had relinquished any power, Jimbo. I am much relieved to hear that this is not so. I really should have known better since the media consistently gets the fact of you being the sole founder incorrect. But I am confused as to why you have allowed the pornographic images you deleted to be reinstated? Perhaps you could demonstrate your power by having those images redeleted? 96.15.33.187 (talk) 21:43, 10 June 2010 (UTC)

New interface

Hello, Jimbo. Is there any way you could force the staff to revert the latest interface change or at least pay more attention to what is going on? People are outraged. Many users claim they avoid using Wikipedia now, because of the recent changes. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 92.100.57.216 (talk) 19:20, 10 June 2010 (UTC)

Are they not aware of the "Take me back" link at the top of every page? Or are anonymous users? Reach Out to the Truth 20:52, 10 June 2010 (UTC)

Just couldn't resist adding the citation needed tag a la xkcd :)prashanthns (talk) 21:33, 10 June 2010 (UTC)

Teaching with Wikipedia

After hearing your interview with The Chronicle of Higher Education, I thought you might like to read an essay that three Wikipedia editors who are also academics have written about ways to teach with Wikipedia and what questions it raises: User:Awadewit/TeachingEssay. Awadewit (talk) 21:20, 10 June 2010 (UTC)

Very interesting! Thank you for calling this to my attention!--Jimbo Wales (talk) 07:10, 11 June 2010 (UTC)

How does one appeal an unofficial block?

I’m sorry to bother you, Mr. Wales, but I need your advice about how to handle something that I can’t find explained at any policy pages.

Earlier today, I was blocked for two weeks by the admin 2over0, with the explanation “for repeated edit warring, WP:IDIDNTHEARTHAT, disruptive editing, and assumptions of bad faith.” I’m not aware of having engaged in any of these behaviors recently, had not been recently warned about any of them, and there aren’t any recent discussions about this at any admin noticeboards, so I asked for my block to be reviewed. I also mentioned in my unblock request that since I was an involved party in the race and intelligence arbitration case, I should not be prevented from participating in it. After I’d been blocked for around three hours, the blocking admin unblocked me with the explanation that this was so I could participate in the arbitration case, but that I’m still banned from editing all other pages. The discussion about this is at the bottom of my user talk page.

Since as far as I know I haven’t done anything to warrant these sanctions, I would still like to appeal 2over0’s decision to ban me from editing everything but the arbitration pages. But since he’s technically granted my unblock request, I can’t make use of the template to ask that my block be reviewed in order to appeal this decision. I have two questions about this that I’d appreciate you answering. First, is it standard for a user to be blocked without any discussion or warning like this, so that they aren’t aware of what specific conduct they’ve been blocked for; and for the blocking admin to grant an unblock request while also stating that the formerly blocked user is still banned from editing all but a small group of pages? And assuming that this sort of unofficial block is a normal course of action for admins here, what are the normal channels for appealing it? --Captain Occam (talk) 01:24, 11 June 2010 (UTC)

This is an interesting case that may be worth mentioning here because it involves the issue of how to handle a topic (Race and intelligence and several related articles) when the underlying science is poorly established and where the topic attracts people who have learned how Wikipedia works: they know to be civil; they know how to argue that their source complies with policy; they know not to stray over WP:3RR. The issue confronting Wikipedia is more general than this case because in time enthusiasts will learn how to get along here, and they may make it very hard to maintain WP:NPOV on certain classes of articles because a small number of enthusiasts can overwhelm the one or two editors who may better represent NPOV (for example, there have been 939 edits to Race and intelligence since April 1, and the talk page and archives 76–81 total over 1.1 million characters since January 11). Johnuniq (talk) 02:06, 11 June 2010 (UTC)

Incidentally, if asking about this here is one way for my block to be appealed, I guess I’d like to do that. Now that I can no longer request that my block be reviewed using the template for that, the only other option that 2over0 has mentioned for how to do this is by posting a thread about it at AN/I. And I’d really rather not start another AN/I thread about this, since you’ve probably noticed how threads there about articles related to race and intelligence tend to degenerate into pointless arguments where it’s impossible to obtain a consensus about anything.

I’m not really sure what I ought to say here with regard to appealing this block, since I still don’t completely understand what the reasons for it were. But David.Kane and WavePart have both disputed the validity of this block on 2over0’s talk page here, and I agree with their comments about it. --Captain Occam (talk) 02:18, 11 June 2010 (UTC)

(edit conflict) Outside opinion

To justify blocks based on content-based issues, I think it important that diffs should be provided, with rationale. This assists other editors in assessing whether there is a substantiated problem. Having said that, while there is a pending ArbCom case, one should expect a general moratorium on editing until the issue is resolved, from all parties. There is no particular reason why disputes should continue to be pursued until there is a resolution, and in fact, continuing to do so merely clouds the waters and makes the situation all the harder to deal with. Although passionate beliefs are commonly expressed here, once an article comes within the jurisdiction of ArbCom, some introspection appears to be worthwhile. This is on the basis that if your interpretation and use of reliable sources is acceptable, editors have nothing to worry about. On the other hand, those pushing a point of view without regard to our principles should not be surprised by the imposition of sanctions. Rodhullandemu 02:26, 11 June 2010 (UTC)

My history with Occam is only per my recent involvement at Race and intelligence, however, I have to say this is the first block I've seen that provides no diffs supporting the itemizing of disruptive actions. I assume actions at this article are the source of the block (unclear), but I have not seen disruptive behavior there on the part of Occam. Nor do I see what purpose the block has. Editors are attempting to get back to the article and away from the mediation angst (which precipitated the arbitration for which commenting Occam was selectively unblocked) and are back to discussing issues, including the results as such of the mediation, at article talk. What acts are punished by Occam's block? None--the article is currently protected so the only activity has been discussion of content, which has been civil (if opinionated) by all. What is the purpose of allowing Occam to comment at the arbitration? Only to continue the conflict, and enough has been said there already. So:

1. block with no diffs or mention of articles?
2. but a copious list of (unreferenced) bad behaviors?
3. and a selective unblock which only allows for continuation of conflict?
4. when there is no immediately discernable behavior which merited a block?

This really does need to be overturned, it's not helping; it accomplishes nothing except the escalation of bad faith. PЄTЄRS J VЄСRUМВА ►TALK 04:10, 11 June 2010 (UTC)

The consensus in 2over0’s user talk is this block was inappropriate, and according to ImperfectlyInformed, 2over0 actually does not have the authority to impose it. If 2over0 does not have the authority to impose this sanction, should I regard it as invalid? Or do I need to still respect it regardless, until 2over0 (or another admin) specifically tells me that it’s been revoked? --Captain Occam (talk) 04:31, 11 June 2010 (UTC)

Have you tried groveling? A good 75 percent of admin reply very well to that. Some do have good intentions and will base their decision on merit alone but they are like Condors. Not seen often. Hell In A Bucket (talk) 04:19, 11 June 2010 (UTC)

That really is unhelpful. Admins are perhaps under more scrutiny than other editors, and are perfectly aware of that. Grovelling isn't, in my experience, likely to achieve an unblock when the reasons for blocking are clear, and the reasons for unblocking do not address the issues of the block. That, of course, depends on the blocking admin giving at least a basic reason for the block. That is what the templates are for, and in my experience, very much most of them are not even challenged, and when they are, I can't remember a single instance in which a block of mine has been overturned on its merits. If "grovelling" means subscribing to our policies and guidelines, so what? If you disagree with them, you are free to discuss changes, but don't be surprised of you encounter some opposition: that's the nature of a democratic community. Rodhullandemu 04:36, 11 June 2010 (UTC)

I had not previously considered this particular sort of case, and I would like to hear from some uninvolved admins on this. Not on this particular case, which is interesting and should be resolved quickly (my own view is that the restrictions should be lifted in this particular case by the blocking admin in the interest of harmony and generosity).

But I am interested in hearing more and thinking more about the "constitutional status" of a topic-area ban put into place by a single admin, what it means in detail, and what best practice should be for appealing such a situation.--Jimbo Wales (talk) 06:35, 11 June 2010 (UTC)

I believe that the community rejected topic bans imposed by an individual administrator at Wikipedia:Discretionary sanctions. I intended this to be a simple lifting of the software restriction on editing to facilitate participation by Captain Occam at Wikipedia:Arbitration/Requests/Case/Race and intelligence. They are a major participant in that case, and it does not strike me as fair to reject their input for so long or require that someone else post their responses by proxy. Had this not been the case, I would not have unblocked (unless normal discussion mechanisms indicated, of course). It was my understanding that a conditional unblock of this nature would be completely non-controversial, though I welcome input if I am mistaken in this. - 2/0 (cont.) 06:56, 11 June 2010 (UTC)

What you're doing here isn't any different from a topic ban. It has all of the same effects, and all of the same problems, including the fact that there's no clearly-defined process for how to appeal it. Captain Occam's need for participation in the Arbcom case is self-evident, but additionally the entire block is altogether unreasonable as several editors have already pointed out in your user talk. You have been asked several times to provide diffs or other support for this unexplained and sudden block. I find it confusing why you're ignoring them.

The consensus seems to be that the block is unjustified, which includes Jimbo Wales asking you to lift the restriction. What is the proper course of action at this point? -Ferahgo the Assassin (talk) 08:57, 11 June 2010 (UTC)

Your submission at Articles for creation

Your nomination at Articles for Creation was declined, and Wikipedia talk:Articles for creation/The Lazarus Effect (documentary) was not created. Please view your submission to see the comments left by the reviewer, and please feel free to request article creation again once the issues have been addressed. Thank you for your contributions to Wikipedia!  Chzz  ►  08:24, 11 June 2010 (UTC)