Wikipedia:Categories for discussion/Log/2010 February 15

February 15

Category:Tomar Kingdoms

Category:Tomar Kingdoms - Template:Lc1

Nominator's rationale: Delete or Rename or something. I'm not sure what this category is actually for. The head article is Tomara dynasty, but the relation to that dynasty of the 3 articles in the category is unclear. BrownHairedGirl (talk) • (contribs) 16:03, 15 February 2010 (UTC)

• Comment. The articles are about cities, and two say that they were formerly part of a Tomar state. I don't think we categorize places by former states they were part of, so tentatively delete. Ucucha 16:07, 15 February 2010 (UTC)

Category:House of Clare

Propose renaming Category:House of Clare to Category:Clare family

Nominator's rationale: Rename. They are a family of gentry and peers, not a royal house. Category is under-populated, but the head article De Clare shows that it has plenty of scope for being populated. BrownHairedGirl (talk) • (contribs) 15:48, 15 February 2010 (UTC)

Rename as proposed.. MarmadukePercy (talk) 16:55, 15 February 2010 (UTC)

• Rename per nom, though "House of..." is in fact standard in these nob-squad categories, as in Category:French noble houses. But it is not the usual English terminology these days, & we should be rolling it back where we can. Johnbod (talk) 17:13, 15 February 2010 (UTC)
• Leave as de Clare - rationale - starting a new trend is, in my opinion, highly inadvisable. What would come next - The House of Marshal or The Marshal Family? possible solution: There could be a lead in the search engine from "Clare" to de Clare if someone were to search using just the name "Clare". It is already in place for fitz Gilbert. More appropriate for this venue. Technically, the founders were fitz Gilberts anyway. The name of Clare only started to be used sometime after Richard fitz Gilbert was awarded Clare Castle. What would we do with the fitz Gilberts? As to changing name to House of Clare or Clare Family - inappropriate for the all these reasons given. Mugginsx (talk) 19:34, 15 February 2010 (UTC)

Category:Human evolution fossils

Category:Human evolution fossils - Template:Lc1

Nominator's rationale: Delete. Duplicates Category:Hominin fossils, which is more definite. No merger needed, since all articles are already doubly categorized. Ucucha 15:42, 15 February 2010 (UTC)

• Merge to Category:Hominin fossils as duplicate. Merger is better than deletion, in case the dual-categorisation is incomplete when the CfD is closed, and the bots handle duplicates gracefully. --BrownHairedGirl (talk) • (contribs) 15:52, 15 February 2010 (UTC)
  • There are a few articles herein (like Lantian Man) that should not be in either category; they are properly categorized in Category:Early species of Homo. (I should have mentioned this in my original statement, but forgot to.) Ucucha 15:57, 15 February 2010 (UTC)

Category:Air America Radio

Propose renaming Category:Air America Radio to Category:Air America (radio network)

Nominator's rationale: Network has not been called "Air America Radio" for a while. The company's final name, and what everyone called it anyway, was just "Air America", so requesting to rename this category to match parent article's title. (And yes, I am aware that Category:Air America is free, but it seems inappropriate to use considering the dab page located on Air America.) SchuminWeb (Talk) 15:42, 15 February 2010 (UTC)

• Rename in accordance with title of parent article. Ucucha 15:52, 15 February 2010 (UTC)
• Support Rename to match title of parent article. Alansohn (talk) 17:30, 15 February 2010 (UTC)

Category:E-mail Archiving and Compliance

Suggest merging Category:E-mail Archiving and Compliance to Category:E-mail

Nominator's rationale: Merge per WP:OC#SMALL as excessively narrow. If kept, rename to Category:E-mail archiving and compliance to fix capitalisation. BrownHairedGirl (talk) • (contribs) 15:38, 15 February 2010 (UTC)

• Merge as proposed; too small and not very likely to grow. Ucucha 15:52, 15 February 2010 (UTC)
• Appropriate as a subcategory to Category:E-mail as is - there is a much longer list of solutions (eg smarsh, mimecast, etc) and continued innovation/news to be included (eg legal action noted in a company's history section, laws enacted, etc). Rename as suggested. Brentyoung (talk) 17:24, 15 February 2010 (UTC)

Category:Sailboat names

Suggest merging Category:Sailboat names to Category:Sailboats

Nominator's rationale: This category seems to be about sailboats, not their names. There was an unresolved discussion in 2005 (during which Category:Sailboats was created) and apparently there may be some disagreement about what kinds of vessels should go into this category, but nobody seems to agree that the "names" is necessary, any more than we put articles about people into Category:People names or articles about songs into Category:Song names. If there's still any dispute about the type of vessel, I hope we can all at least agree that "Sailboats" is a better title than "Sailboat names." Propaniac (talk) 15:28, 15 February 2010 (UTC)

• Merge to Category:Yachts by name. --BrownHairedGirl (talk) • (contribs) 15:30, 15 February 2010 (UTC)

What, HMS Victory is a yacht? Johnbod (talk) 16:15, 15 February 2010 (UTC)

I support 'yachts by name'. HMS Victory would go in 'warships by name' or similar appropriate category. Boatman (talk) 16:43, 15 February 2010 (UTC)

Are you volunteering to do the sorting? Johnbod (talk) 17:16, 15 February 2010 (UTC)

• Merge to Category:Yachts by name. Category:Sailboats is the top level category and Category:Sailboat names / Category:Yachts by name index individual yachts via their names. Sail boats have numerous attributes:- name, class, construction, type, use etc etc. We should not bundle everything into one large category. We need to keep separate categories so that the reader can quickly home in on the info they require. Boatman (talk) 16:32, 15 February 2010 (UTC)
  • I assumed that Category:Sailboats was the correct category because it looked like most of the items in that category were specific vessels, the same kind of article currently in Category:Sailboat names. The same seems to be true of Category:Yachts and Category:Yachts by name. Am I understanding correctly that all those articles about specific vessels currently in Category:Sailboats and Category:Yachts are not supposed to be in that category? Propaniac (talk) 17:14, 15 February 2010 (UTC)
• Rename or delete Please understand that "sailboat" is a US-only term that to UK and I imagine other English-speaking ears rather implies something 15 feet long. This category aims to include all articles on individual sail-powered vessels including commercial freighters and warships. Rename to Category:Sailing ships or vessels or something similar, if the category is in fact useful - which it may be. Johnbod (talk) 16:15, 15 February 2010 (UTC)

Category:Editors with a pro-Wikipedia bias

Category:Editors with a pro-Wikipedia bias - Template:Lc1

Nominator's rationale: Delete. I can't quite figure out what exactly this category is supposed to be for, since presumably anyone who spends some of their time editing wikipedia has some sort of bias in favour of the project, unless they are vandals. So this seems to be irrelevant to collaboration between editors, which is the only purpose of such categories BrownHairedGirl (talk) • (contribs) 15:23, 15 February 2010 (UTC)

Delete per nom. The category could more accurately be called "Editors who declare they have a pro-Wikipedia bias", but such declarations are not verifiable and could themselves be the result of social desirability bias. Jalapenos do exist (talk) 15:45, 15 February 2010 (UTC)

• Transcluded by User:RomaC/PR. I am not so sure about deletion; true, it is a somewhat pointless category, but it is not divisive, so why bother deleting it? Ucucha 15:55, 15 February 2010 (UTC)
  • Because, as you noted, it is a somewhat pointless category. --BrownHairedGirl (talk) • (contribs) 15:57, 15 February 2010 (UTC)
    • There are lots of things that go on in userspace that I would consider pointless, but we do not delete them because, supposedly, they help foster a collaborative environment that facilitates Wikipedia growth. Ucucha 16:01, 15 February 2010 (UTC)
• Keep This is a good bias and I wish others would join it. Specially Jalapenos. :D Ucucha is also right, the nom smacks of WP:IDONTLIKEIT: what the nom sees as pointless and redundant actually is seen as otherwise, in particular in topic areas were there is a demonstrable (as in ArbCom-banhammering demonstratable) anti-wikipedia bias on the part of groups of editors. It is both a statement of purpose and signal to editors to join. That it hasn't caught up is another matter, but this is not a reason to delete. Something being seen as pointless by editors is not a good reason for deletion, because one editor's "pointless" is another's "point". I do get the point, and its an important one. --Cerejota (talk) 16:46, 15 February 2010 (UTC)
• Keep Agreed on the WP:IDONTLIKEIT front here and no policy justification for deletion is offered. This category serves as an aid to navigation and collaboration for those who don't think the category is pointless. Alansohn (talk) 18:17, 15 February 2010 (UTC)
  • Alansohn, there is a policy reason, as stated in the nomination: that this category is irrelevant to collaboration between editors. Cerejota's comment clarifies the situation further, by explaining that it the category is intended to have a factionalising effect. The fact that you don't like that policy reason does not make this a WP:IDONTLIKEIT nomination. The factionalising intent is a very good reason to delete the category, as was done with lots of other similar categories, most recently Category:Unbiased Wikipedians, Category:Wikipedians who say CfD is broken, and Category:Wikipedians working to improve CfD. --BrownHairedGirl (talk) • (contribs) 19:29, 15 February 2010 (UTC)
    • There are lots of categories you don't like. I understand that and am unimpressed with the precedents you offer which have no relevance here. I'm not sure why we bother dealing with these categories at CfD, but their removal is far more divisive and causes more disruption than the oft-repeated attempts to keep Wikipedia clear of any such groups. As this is a clear aid to collaboration, the supposed policy argument is equally irrelevant. Alansohn (talk) 19:54, 15 February 2010 (UTC)
• Delete. Indeed, Cerejota makes it clear that this is a divisive category. We don't need factionalization. Ucucha 19:33, 15 February 2010 (UTC)

Category:Wikipedians who are recipients of the Commendation Medal

Category:Wikipedians who are recipients of the Commendation Medal - Template:Lc1

Nominator's rationale: Delete. Good for them, and they are quite entitled to be proud of their achievements, but this is irrelevant to collaboration amongst editors. BrownHairedGirl (talk) • (contribs) 15:16, 15 February 2010 (UTC)

• Keep - This is a userspace category. We have all kinds of them, intendended to foster collaboration and interest among editors by highlighting their real life achievements and accomplishments. What you could call flair. I wouldn't say it is irrelevant to collaboration: declaring this can help, for example, to locate knowledgeable editors on the topic of military medals, military history, etc. This seems WP:IDONTLIKEIT, and the rationale for deletion is hence unconvincing. --Cerejota (talk) 16:52, 15 February 2010 (UTC)

• Keep - It is a fact that those who have served in the military, regardless of branch or even country, have a tendency to speak the same language, simply because so many experiences transcend borders. The Russians have a proverb: 'A soldier is a soldier is a soldier; only the color of the button is different'. Civilians and military people lack a certain commonality that is shared by service members even from different nations. This is something that I have experienced time and again, first hand, over many years.

This can have an enormous effect upon collaboration between editors, especially as it relates to military-themed articles: If I happen to peruse an article or section on, for example, non-judicial punishment as it affects the lower ranks in various armies, I am more apt to believe that an editor is knowedgeable if I can check that his bonafides are 'up to snuff', and userboxes and user categories are two ways of confirming this. This could also, obviously, affect whether I collaborate with said editor on a particular project. Add to it that this category is no less significant than others that cover, for instance, an editors national origin, sex, age or religion. To be sure, user categories are reflections of editor individuality, and, as such, have validity. If this one is to be deleted, then all should be deleted. No exceptions.Lyricmac (talk) 17:56, 15 February 2010 (UTC)

Category:Famous polar bears

Propose renaming Category:Famous polar bears to Category:Notable polar bears

Nominator's rationale: Transferred from Wikipedia:Requested moves Anthony Appleyard (talk) 15:03, 15 February 2010 (UTC)

• I don't think this fits any of the speedy criteria. In fact, it's part of an established category tree (Category:Famous animals). Jafeluv (talk) 11:10, 15 February 2010 (UTC)
• We might consider whether "notable" is a more appropriate word than "famous" for this category tree for individual animals with articles. Ucucha 15:58, 15 February 2010 (UTC)
• Keep "Notable" is no use - this is always removed here, on the grounds that all subjects that escape Afd are by definition notable (until proven otherwise). Category:Individual polar bears would be the way to go, but all the tree (37 sub-cats) should be addressed, & I think "famous" is ok myself. Johnbod (talk) 16:19, 15 February 2010 (UTC)
• Keep or discuss Category:Famous animals instead, per Johnbod. I too think famous is OK. Occuli (talk) 17:33, 15 February 2010 (UTC)
• Keep This is a category about specific animals who are definingly notable for their choice of being polar bears and their choice of pursuing fame and fortune in the big city zoos. Category:Polar bears would be perfect if it weren't about the species as a whole. Something is needed to uniquely identify this as referring to individual animals. Alansohn (talk) 18:20, 15 February 2010 (UTC)

Category:Military Friendly University

Category:Military Friendly University - Template:Lc1

Nominator's rationale: Delete per WP:OC#TRIVIA as a non-defining or trivial characteristic.
The inclusion of a university in somebody's list of universities-good-for-X may just about merit a mention in the article on a university, but it probably isn't enough for a list, and is definitely not a defining characteristic which requires a category. BrownHairedGirl (talk) • (contribs) 14:59, 15 February 2010 (UTC)

• Agree with deletion. I told the category's creator that I intended to bring the category here for deletion, but first I wanted to give him a chance to start fixing things. He can create an article about "Military-friendly universities" (a designation for U.S. institutions that was created by a proprietary business, but apparently based on criteria -- and that has been publicized by every university thus designated). --Orlady (talk) 15:48, 15 February 2010 (UTC)
  • No need to delay deletion. A list of the articles in the category can be placed in the editor's userspace to allow them to add a mention in the articles if they want to. --BrownHairedGirl (talk) • (contribs) 15:54, 15 February 2010 (UTC)
    • Understood. However, having been accused in the past of incivility because of actions like nominating unsourced articles for deletion, I have concluded that it is generally desirable to give inexperienced good-faith contributors a chance to rectify a situation before confronting them with an XfD process. --Orlady (talk) 18:12, 15 February 2010 (UTC)
• Delete as non-defining characteristic. Ucucha 15:58, 15 February 2010 (UTC)
• Delete WP:OC#TRIVIA argument is a good one. Categorizations of article space shouldn't be trivial or arbitrary. "Military Friendly" is also an ambiguous and possibly non-neutral classification - who defines what being "military friendly" is? --Cerejota (talk) 16:54, 15 February 2010 (UTC)
• Delete This is not a defining characteristic of the universities in question. Alansohn (talk) 18:21, 15 February 2010 (UTC)
• Delete per nom. Grey Wanderer (talk) 19:26, 15 February 2010 (UTC)

Category:Independent politicians in County Kildare

Suggest merging

• Category:Independent politicians in County Kildare to Category:Independent politicians in Ireland
• Category:Independent politicians in Kildare to Category:Independent politicians in Ireland

Nominator's rationale: Merge both. Ireland is not a big enough country to require splitting the sub-cats of Category:Irish politicians by party in categories by each of the 26 counties, and there are no other categories of Irish-politicians-by-party-and-country. Note that the only politicians in Ireland categorised by county are local councillors, so there is no need for a dual upmerge. --BrownHairedGirl (talk) • (contribs) 14:19, 15 February 2010 (UTC)

• Note: This debate has been included in the list of Ireland-related deletion discussions. --BrownHairedGirl (talk) • (contribs) 14:42, 15 February 2010 (UTC)
• Note. Category:Independent politicians in Kildare is empty, and three of the four articles in Category:Independent politicians in County Kildare are currently the subject of deletion debates at WP:AFD: Paddy Kennedy, Pádraig McEvoy, Seamie Moore. --BrownHairedGirl (talk) • (contribs) 14:45, 15 February 2010 (UTC)
• Upmerge as unnecessary subcategorization. Ucucha 15:59, 15 February 2010 (UTC)

Category:United States environmental law

Propose renaming Category:United States environmental law to Category:Environmental law in the United States

Nominator's rationale: Consistency with others in the same series and with the general form of WP page names. -- Alan Liefting (talk) - 07:30, 15 February 2010 (UTC)

• Comment. Looking at Category:United States law, I don't see that one form is dominant over the other. There are a lot of "FOO law in the United States" but also a lot of "United States FOO law". The subcategories are Category:United States environmental case law and Category:United States federal environmental legislation. Would we prefer consistency with the others in Category:Environmental law by country or worry more about consistency within the U.S. structure alone? It's a classic chestnut. Good Ol’factory ^(talk) 09:12, 15 February 2010 (UTC)
• Comment by category creator. I would say that "United States environmental law" suggests federal law, while "environmental law in the United States" could be seen as more inclusive of both state and federal environmental law. So given that there is a distinct subcategory expressly for federal environmental legislation, maybe it's better to go with the more inclusive name. But either naming form is acceptable to me. postdlf (talk) 13:22, 15 February 2010 (UTC)
• Rename per nominator, and per postdlf's observation about inclusivity of both state and federal environmental law. --BrownHairedGirl (talk) • (contribs) 14:07, 15 February 2010 (UTC)
• Rename. The proposed title appears to be better for the reasons postdlf noted. Many of the other categories in Category:United States law should be renamed in the same way. Ucucha 16:02, 15 February 2010 (UTC)
• Support Rename to more clearly describe the content of the category. Alansohn (talk) 18:22, 15 February 2010 (UTC)

Category:Reading instruction by country

Suggest merging Category:Reading instruction by country to Category:Learning to read

Nominator's rationale: Merge. Almost all articles in category in question are about reading methods in general, not reading by country -- the articles have no relation with the category. azumanga (talk) 04:46, 15 February 2010 (UTC)

• Merge per nom and as unnecessary subcategorization; the parent category is fairly small. Ucucha 16:04, 15 February 2010 (UTC)
• Merge per nom - 'by country' implies either subcats (not present) or articles such as 'Reading instruction in Foo' (not present). Occuli (talk) 17:36, 15 February 2010 (UTC)