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Request to amend prior case: Eastern European mailing list

Initiated by _{Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus| talk} at 21:27, 4 January 2011 (UTC)

Case affected

Eastern European mailing list arbitration case (t) (ev / t) (w / t) (pd / t)

Clauses to which an amendment is requested

1. Remedy 3, modified by motions from 6 May and 13 November.

List of users affected by or involved in this amendment

• Piotrus (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log) (initiator)

Confirmation that the above users are aware of this request

N/A

Amendment 1

• Piotrus topic banned, modified by motion 1, allowing edits to WikiProject Poland and motion 2, narrowing the ban
• This is a request to amend EEML Remedy 3 to end the topic ban that applies to Piotrus and allow him to edit articles related to Eastern Europe

Statement by Piotrus

More than a year has passed since the original remedy was instituted, yet close to three months still remain on the topic ban. Since March I have edited uncontroversially, and in May I was allowed to make suggestions at WT:POLAND; neither have been subject to any criticism. In November the topic ban was narrowed to "articles about national, cultural, or ethnic disputes within Eastern Europe, their associated talk pages, and any process discussion about these topics". I tried my best to avoid approaching the rather blurry boundaries of that new ban (I raised concerns about it in the past several times). I will admit that despite my best intentions I have drifted a few times close to that blurry boundary. In all but one instance I self-reverted quickly. Sadly, battleground mentality in EE topics still persists among some, and this led to two AE requests naming me as a party - please note that both ended with no action taken towards my person, and the filling parties in both cases were subject to AE bans and/or blocks (AE 1, AE 2, related AE 3). Finally, just a few days ago I was suddenly blocked by an AE admin, who in good faith misinterpreted the topic ban; I was unblocked a day later following the input from three Arbitrators (appeal and relevant discussion here).

What finally prompted me to file this request now was a single edit I did not make: I wanted to correct the placement of a reference template in the Adam Mickiewicz article ({{Catholic|wstitle=Adam Mickiewicz}} should be in the reference section, not at the very bottom of the article). But moments before I was about to hit the save button, I realized that the article seems to be in the midst of an edit war related to the subject nationality, and by making an edit there - even one totally uncontroversial and unrelated to the dispute - I could be accused of violating the topic ban. This is not the first time I halted myself like that; one of the self-reverts I mentioned was this edit to the article "Poland Anti-Religious Campaign (1945–1990), where I made an AutoEd/ce edit to a new article that popped up on the WikiProject Poland's new article report. This topic was never a subject to a dispute on Wikipedia (nor has it been since the article was created), but it does seem related to some dispute. And indeed, in the (dismissed) AE reports I mentioned, this edit of mine was part of the "evidence". Thus I am prevented from carrying out the copyedit of this article, moving it (the title needs to be decapitalized per MoS) and making other uncontroversial edits. After this last block-unblock incident, I am very wary of editing anything related to Eastern Europe at all (I was about to create a series of articles about Polish armoured trains, a plan I now put on hold, as I don't want my block log to witness more admins who could misinterprets my topic ban as including all military topics...). Even if I do my best to adhere to the topic ban, I can still be harassed by battleground-minded editors; worse, even neutral, good-faithed admins have shown they have trouble interpreting the topic ban, and the result is a lot of wikistress and time wasted on AE. I have to admit that I feel more stressed under this topic ban then in many preceding months, as I am always afraid I will make a good-faithed edit that will be seen as topic ban gaming, or that even if I won't, I will be dragged to AE again for more stressful battleground showdowns (and even if such reports seem to serve a useful function of identifying disruptive, battleground-minded editors, I do not enjoy being the lightning rod of their attention - which, considering that I am now the last editor with an EEML-related remedy still in force, is unlikely to diminish).

Lastly, I'd like to note that the EEML case was not about creating improper content, but about improper edit (revert) coordination and (vote) canvassing. That lesson, about impropriety of such actions, was learned by me and others long ago (I admited as much during the very case). I would like to resume creating content and building an encyclopedia (the 2010, due to the topic ban, was the first year I wrote no Featured Article, my Good Article and DYK writing were also cut down to roughly one fifths of the levels of the previous years; here you can see how the remedy affected my activity levels).

The topic ban will end in late March; I believe that I am as ready to resume constructive and uncontroversial editing in that area now as I will be in by then. In the past year, during discussions of subsequent amendments, the Committee members often spoke of the gradual return to the editing area. I hope that now, close to 13 months out of 15 in my remedies, we can finally put this behind us (I also selfishly hope that this request can be processed faster than the last one, which took two months).

New members of the committee may be interested in reading my statement from the 21 September from the amendment request that led to the motion narrowing the topic ban.

Comment to the points raised by involved editors:

1) Upon my AE block by Mkativerata, as declared on my talk page, I sent an email to him asking for an explanation, providing my understanding of the situation and asking for an unblock. Assuming he may not be active at that time, and wishing to minimize any delays before the unblock (or AE unblock discussion), I send similar emails to several other AE administrators who commented, in a non-partisan fashion, on the recent AE requests involving my person (linked above). Being unable to post on AE for several days, I continued sending several emails to administrators discussing the situation there, clarifying certain things they asked for (or asking for clarifications myself). Obviously, I also contacted several members of the arbitration committee asking for their input (which was eventually provided, ending with an unblock, once the arbitrators have clarified the scope of the topic ban). I used emails because that was the only means available for me to contact other editors, and in doing so I followed advice offered to me by an Arbitrator some time ago ("if you end up being in the middle of an enforcement request, seek help from an arb to help clarify this"). Nothing in those emails was secret, and if the Committee wants to see them, I authorize their recipients to share them with the Committee if it is requested from them (as I sent most of them through wiki interface I don't have their copies to provide). I resent second or third handed description of such emails as canvassing or dishonest, although I am not surprised as those personal attacks are coming from a user with a very long history of assuming (and expressing) bad faith when it comes to my person. I will end by asking Deacon to disclose who was it that send him this email? Or are we dealing with another "anonymous whistle-blower" who is afraid to express his concerns publicly?

2) Echoing sentiments expressed by several editors here, and at least one Arbitrator, I will ask the Committee to consider whether this forum does indeed allow editors to express profound bad-faith comments and carry out personal attacks on others without any consequences. On AE, editors making unfounded, bad-faithed accusations and contributing to the battleground atmosphere in EE area received AE and interaction bans. I would specifically ask the Committee to consider imposing an interaction ban on Deacon with regards to EE(ML) editors (and frankly, if the Committee would like to make it a double sided restriction, that's fine - I never commented on Deacon outside of the situations he commented on my person, and my only desire is for him to stop wikistalking/hounding my activity). Please note that Deacon's bad-faithed criticism of my person is not a rare or exceptional occurence. His first edit this year upon coming from a nearly month long wikiholiday was to post here; last year he made comments in AE requests involving my person and occasionally other editors involved in the EE(ML) case ([1], [2], [3], [4], [5], [6], [7], [8], [9]) and in amendments ([10]). Also, despite being obviously involved in this area, he takes administrative actions (ex. [11]). In the years past, Deacon has presented evidence against me and other EE-related editors ([12]), been banned from EE-related arbitration pages due to incivility and battleground mentality ([13]), authored himself an entire arbcom case against me ([14]), and was mentioned in its findings ([15]), admonished ([16]) and reminded to assume good faith, remain civil and avoid personal attacks,. In April and in June 2009 I offered him a mediation (twice), he refused, twice ([17], [18]) At that time I also specifically asked him to avoid commenting about me (and promised never to comment on him) - [19]. As far as I can tell, he ignored this request of mine, not even replying to it. His "history" with EE-editors goes at as far back as 2006 (and on the subject of canvassing, here's a skeleton in a closet). Since it seems obvious that Deacon sees his vigilantism vigilance in this area as helping the project, and saving it from "the EE editors", perhaps the Committee could take a closer look at whether his attitude and activities are really benefiting that area (and the project in general)?

And now, can we please get back to the subject at hand (the topic ban), and try not to be distracted by some editors who are trying to derail this request by turning it into another battleground? Thank you, --_{Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus| talk} 22:53, 18 January 2011 (UTC)

3) I consider allegations made in this post by Skäpperöd to be extremly uncivil and defamatory. I believe that the personal attacks contained in it are so serious that I am officially requesting that this diff is oversighted. Skäpperöd has the right to voice concerns and criticism, but the line surely is crossed when one makes allegations regarding another editors goals in contributing, character and personality, and bad-faithed interpretation of professional expertise to boot (not far from WP:OUTING, I believe).

Since an interaction ban was mentioned, I will also ask the Committee to consider whether this wouldn't be another good place for it. I respect Skäpperöd's content contributions, and have no desire to hinder them; however his constant critique of EE(ML) editors that shows no signs of lessening seems disruptive and conductive to recreating battleground mentality (if editors cannot WP:FORGIVE and move on, what can we expect in the near future? More drama, that's what). A review of his Wikipedia namespace contributions shows that 90% of them are related to criticizing EE(ML) members. In October last year he proposed an amendment indefinitely extending a topic ban of User:Jacurek, the proposal was quickly rejected by the Committee and Skäpperöd was warned to avoid battleground tone and mentality ([20]). That year he also objected to lifting a sanction in an AN discussion, quickly launching another attack on a user who disagreed with him. Earlier, he opposed lifting the topic ban on Radeksz (it was lifted), opposed lifting the topic ban on me and proposed an indef extension (the topic ban was partially lifted by being modified to current wording), proposed an amendment extending Radeksz topic ban for a year (rejected), objected to an amendment lifting my topic ban, using in edit summary phrases such as "malicious Piotrus" (I am loosing track here of which amendment request was that), objected to Radeksz amendment request (ditto), commented on AE that "It is neither bad faith, nor uncivil, nor a PA to state that Piotrus is discredited and banned, because he is", objected to am amendment allowing me to edit WT:POLAND (passed), criticized another EEML editor in March... those are just some of the diffs I could've cited, I don't really have time or will to provide more than just a sampling. I hope this proves the occurence of an unhealthy vigilantism clear here as well, and makes the case for an interaction ban. Once again, if the Committee wants to make it double sided, that would be fine (even through neither I nor to my knowledge anybody else has a history of following Skäpperöd around and criticizing him, damaging his reputation, and so on...). I do however strongly believe that as long as certain editors stay focused on flaming their opponents at every possible occasion, the EE conflicts won't dissipate. If some editors cannot learn to WP:FORGIVE and move on, I am afraid they have to be directed towards the reconciliation path. Please note that there is nothing that the project will lose if such interaction restrictions are implemented; instead we will gain some peace and quiet from dramu accusations, battleground atmosphere will dissipate as flaming goes away, and certain editors will no longer have to waste time they could spend writing content on launching attacks on others (or defending from them). --_{Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus| talk} 05:14, 20 January 2011 (UTC)

Statement by Mkativerata

In my view, the current wording ought to be amended for the reasons I, and other uninvolved admins, gave at the most recent AE.[21] I have no opinion on whether the restriction ought to be lifted, other than to re-iterate my comment that if it is not possible to communicate Arbcom's intent in a clearly-worded editing restriction, it may very well be better to have no restriction at all. --Mkativerata (talk) 20:27, 6 January 2011 (UTC)

Re the suggested wording (see PhilKnight). I'm not sure how an article can be the subject of a ethnic, national, etc. dispute. It can only be the subject of an editing dispute that may or may not be borne out of national, ethnic or cultural differences between the editors involved. The term "present-day dispute" might also be overly narrow: surely Arbcom wants to capture battleground venues like Mass killings under Communist regimes: those articles are about past ethnic or national disputes in relation to which there are severe present academic and editing disputes. I don't mean to be unhelpful -- I've racked my brains to conceive of wording that would do the job Arbcom wants, but a solution may be elusive.--Mkativerata (talk) 01:12, 12 January 2011 (UTC)

Perhaps in the same vein as Deacon's post, I've been quite surprised by the off-wiki emails I receive from active EE editors, some of which are plainly designed to procure blocks of other editors (note Piotrus has not done this; I'm talking about others). I find this quite unacceptable. I think Piotrus would also do well not to make the kind of posts he made to NYB, Shell and Kirill's user talk pages after he was unblocked. I can understand Piotrus was relieved to have been unblocked and grateful for the arbs' intervention, but the messages should put their recipients in uncomfortable positions. For the record, I wasn't canvassed by anyone in relation to Piotrus' block or his appeal. --Mkativerata (talk) 01:38, 18 January 2011 (UTC)

I'd only disclose the content of the emails and the identity of their senders if Arbcom asked for them. I'm certainly not going to do so as part of an amendment request related to a different editor entirely. I only do so to illustrate the point about the dangers of off-wiki conduct because it appears from Deacon's post -- and from the comments of one or two admins at the AE appeal -- that editors and admins were being asked off-wiki to "have a look" at the AE appeal. --Mkativerata (talk) 19:13, 18 January 2011 (UTC)

Statement by Malik Shabazz

I support Piotrus' request that his topic ban be lifted. As recent events have shown, the current situation—in which the topic ban only applies to areas of conflict—is subject to different interpretations among administrators acting in good faith. — Malik Shabazz ^Talk/_Stalk 21:28, 6 January 2011 (UTC)

In light of the recent behavior by Deacon of Pndapetzim, both here and at WT:RFARB, I encourage ArbCom to consider sanctioning him. I also encourage ArbCom to consider whether it is appropriate to ban Deacon of Pndapetzim from speaking to, or commenting on, former members of the EEML. — Malik Shabazz ^Talk/_Stalk 05:47, 19 January 2011 (UTC)

Statement by Timotheus Canens

What Mkativerata said. Apparently, what arbcom seems to mean by "articles about national, ethnic, or cultural disputes" seems to be "article about, or subject to, present-day national, ethnic, or cultural disputes". As far as I know (perhaps, not being a native speaker, I have missed some special features of the English language?), that's not what that phrase usually means in normal English (even the Wikipedia dialect of it). I incorporate by reference my comments in the AE thread Mkativerata linked to. T. Canens (talk) 15:24, 8 January 2011 (UTC)

Statement by Novickas

I've been conversing with P. about this at his talk page [22]. My points were that I wouldn't have found it hard to stay well inside the newer topic ban restriction; that the Adam Mickiewicz article falls well inside the line and that describing his hypothetical minor edit to that article as a last-moment realization that he was about to edit an ethnic dispute article was misleading; that he remains free to bring up proposed-but possibly-problematic edits at the PL noticeboard; and that the various recent AE reports were not beneficial to the community at large. I objected to his statement above "...such reports seem to serve a useful function of identifying disruptive, battleground-minded editors...". and suggested finding a mentor.

He responds by saying that I cannot put myself in his shoes when I say it wouldn't be hard, since I don't contribute as much as he does; that the admins who evaluated the various topic ban AE reports disagreed among themselves, showing that observing the boundary is indeed difficult; and that he would avoid all EE topics instead (presumably if this motion doesn't pass.) He asked for a specific suggestion as to how to rewrite the Adam M. part of this appeal - I haven't got one - and acknowledged he knew this article was the subject of an ethnic dispute.

I would prefer that the topic ban be carefully re-worded rather than lifted. Accompanied by a call for mentor volunteers - maybe mentor isn't quite the right term; just someone he could talk to when he feels a strong inclination to edit these articles. Or he could post them to my talk page, I wouldn't file an AE report. But as things have worked out some of his ventures have resulted in what I consider wikilawyering on his part. IMO we shouldn't be asked to evaluate the accidental-ness of an edit [23] or weigh his blurry-boundary edits against the greater good to Wikipedia, and he should demonstrate his readiness to rejoin the community, and his self-control, by sparing us these discussions and disputes for the duration. Novickas (talk) 19:48, 10 January 2011 (UTC)

So is this OK with you guys - that he rewrote the Stanisław Koniecpolski article today? [24] A Pole who was 'despised in Ukraine'? [25] Sheesh. Novickas (talk) 19:43, 12 January 2011 (UTC)

Statement by Courcelles

I don't really have an opinion about lifting the restrictions, but something must clearly change here. When three or four admins have one interpretation of what an ArbCom decision means, and the Arbitrators themselves have another interpretation of their words, the wording of the remedy must be considered to be suboptimal. AE matters are, if not the hardest, one of the toughest admin chores we have to do, and this wording makes it just that much harder. Mean what you say- a paragraph of clear restrictions is both easier to follow and easier to enforce than the ambiguous sentence we now have. Courcelles 05:24, 11 January 2011 (UTC)

Statement by Volunteer Marek

I am essentially going to echo the sentiments of the AE admins above. The present situation only invites frivolous AE requests and pointless arguing about what is or what is not an EE dispute. It opens up the door for the many people who are holding a long term grudge against Piotrus - and let's be honest here, we all know that there are some individuals here who are still holding on to 5+ year old grudges and who make a regular appearance at these motions (and don't contribute much to Wikipedia besides) - and only encourages the battleground atmosphere that permeates this area. This is not Piotrus' fault, rather it reflects on the folks who seemingly just can't let go.

Either do or don't. And I suggest you "don't" keep the sanctions. None of Piotrus' edits in the past year have been controversial in any way. Except in the way that a bad faith editor can always make a controversy out of nothing, like for example, pretending that minor gnomish edits to articles that have NEVER been a subject of controversy suddenly (after five years of quiet) break the "the letter" of an Arbitration remedy that was actually intended TO GET RID of these kind of onerous restrictions. Usually we call that "wikilawyering" and "battleground behavior". Now, THAT wastes people's time.

Yes, Novickas, is one of these editors and quite, frankly I can't quite understand why Piotrus is even replying to him. Look at the exchange at Piotrus' talk page [26] and tell me that this isn't straight up "baiting a topic banned editor" or, in the words of the directions of the AE page, "poking a caged animal with a stick" - however politely/hypocritically worded Novickas' comments may be. The sanctions on Piotrus were not enough, the purpose of comments such as these - however politely they are worded - are only to try and humiliate Piotrus further, an editor that has done far more for the encyclopedia than any of his critics. This has been going on again and again, every-time this kind of motion has come up in the past months. By this point it's become a form of kitsch.

However much I've disagreed with various people on Wikipedia in the past, I've never understood this apparent desire on the part of some to try and not just "win" these perceived battlegrounds but also this constant effort to denigrate, kick while they're down, and humiliate other editors - apparently for some people it's personal and they enjoy that sort of thing. If you want to know why this is a battleground area - that's it right there, however politely these statements are sometimes worded.

For what it's worth, Piotrus would probably disagree with my assessment above since he seems to always believe that for all it's faults Wikipedia is a great social experiment, while I'm much more cynical about it (though I recognize the good about Wikipedia I also think it's an insanely dysfunctional millieu). Don't hold my own personal negativity against him.

Removing the sanction completely will quiet shit down in the EE area by removing this perverted incentive for battleground warriors to constantly file spurious and pointless requests and allow Piotrus to get back to the simple grunt work (formatting, assessing, writing non controversial content) that no one appreciates anyway. Which is how Wikipedia is supposed to work, right? Volunteer Marek  07:40, 11 January 2011 (UTC)

Btw (I can't resist a snide comment here), since Novickas is pretty convinced that "if (he) were in Piotrus' shoes" he'd know how to "stay within the line" (just to spare others the aggravation of having to wikistalk his edits, not that anyone, least of all Novickas, is wikistalking Piotrus' edits of course) and that he is so sure that he "personally would know how to stay well inside the topic ban boundary" (which insinuates that Piotrus hasn't, while in fact Piotrus HAS - crafty how he sneaked that in there, ey?) I say let him show how well he can stay within the bounds of some topic ban. Since he's asking for it, topic ban Novickas from EE topics for a year (for battleground behavior if nothing else), see how well he does at obeying it, and then a year from now, if all goes well, I will offer him my most sincere apologies, write a sonnet in his honor, and bake a complimentary cupcake for his enjoyment, or something. Volunteer Marek  08:58, 11 January 2011 (UTC)

Just for the record I wanna say that I haven't send any block-shopping emails to Mkativerata or any other admin. Based on what's been going on in the past few months, I'm guessing that these emails were sent by the 'anti-EEML' crowd (though this is just a suspicion). In fact I'm wondering who was the intended target here. So for once I support Skapperod's question (though his intentions in asking it leave a lot to be desired). Volunteer Marek  17:17, 18 January 2011 (UTC)

Statement by nihil novi

I agree with the observations and sentiments offered above by Piotrus, Mkativerata, Malik Shabazz, Timotheus Canens, Courcelles, and Volunteer Marek.

Continuation of the ambiguous topic-ban against Piotrus serves no useful purpose. Nihil novi (talk) 10:41, 11 January 2011 (UTC)

Statement by EdJohnston

I don't think it is worth trying to tweak the language of the restriction. Piotrus's topic ban should just be lifted. It is going to expire on 22 March anyway and maybe this discussion will still be going on then. Discretionary sanctions are available under Digwuren for this topic area so if any ban relaxation turns out to be premature, AE can deal with it. Should the arbs feel they want to keep the ban, they should add a provision for somebody (AE?) to authorize Piotrus to edit a particular article. This would avoid him needing to edit first and then see if he is sanctioned, which is a peculiar system. EdJohnston (talk) 01:59, 12 January 2011 (UTC)

Statement by Ohconfucius

It seems clear from the evidence and Sysop views above that the 'broadly construed' nature of this topic ban is being used by some editors generally hostile to harass Piotrus, game the system, and create drama. Bearing in mind the lack of demonstrable conflict and controversy on his part, and the imminent expiry of his topic ban, I submit that the risk of disruption from an unbanned Piotrus is minimal. Once the ban is terminated, Sysops and others can get back down to business of creating content and not generating or managing drama. --Ohconfucius ^¡digame! 02:27, 12 January 2011 (UTC)

Statement by Septentrionalis (PMAnderson)

I support relaxation or removal of Piotrus' ban; I have always found him a voice of reason within his faction - and there are equally unreasonable opposing factions. At present, for example, I should like to ask him to reason with an editor (whom I will not yet name) who is going about "enforcing" the Gdanzig decision - under his own set of interpretations - as though no progress had been made since 2005 - but his ban forbids him to intervene. I would prefer to have either Piotrus' assistance in reasoning with this person, or Piotrus' reformulation of his position into something I could live with, to proposing an amendment against this person; but his ban prevents either.

If Adam Mickiewicz is ethnically disputed (as it is), then "article about, or subject to, present-day national, ethnic, or cultural disputes" includes virtually all Eastern European articles - and is therefore a tightening of the present condition. Septentrionalis PMAnderson 21:20, 12 January 2011 (UTC)

Statement by Deacon of Pndapetzim

Mkativerata had no choice to block after previously letting him away with several violations of his restrictions. We are now searching for a new wording to reflect how NYB wants Piotrus to be 'restricted', since apparently ArbCom messed up with the current wording. I should point out that NYB wanted this a long time ago, but the ArbCom of the past was wiser, resisted NYB's urgings and imposed the original broad restriction on Piotrus. Arbcom later reduced this restriction, but this was a bad decision, for a variety of reasons (fuelling resentment among opponents, boosting the appeal of gaming methodology, inviting more appeals/amendments across the board, and so on).

Now that the restriction has proved lawyerable we want to drop all restrictions? Not sure what the big deal here is supposed to be! Piotrus obviously knows very well what he is not supposed to do, and everyone here ought to know already that if we aren't super-humanly careful in phraseology, he will simply wikilawyer himself out of most AE requests. All arbs should know enough about Piotrus and EEML now to understand and take measures to prevent it. How does capitulating to it help? What does that say about ArbCom?

The previous relaxation of restrictions on Piotrus simply validated old methods and brought the troubles back (so far as it could). Piotrus is a decent content contributor, sure, but he is pressured both by his own ideology and by his 'support network' to become embroiled in nationalist disputes and resort to wiki-gangsterism in areas he has little expertise. Piotrus is a victim who needs saved just as much as his own past and future victims. Being restrained from this area, he contributes productively to fields where he actually possesses expertise and is of benefit to the project. But even if he is released back into the area, he should at least serve his time. Nothing will cause more resentment among his opponents than Piotrus once again escaping through this kind of pressure.

PS ... I am not very impressed with NYB's intervention in the AE thread. ArbCom get to make rulings, individual arbs shouldn't try to enforce (or suggest on their authority) a preferred interpretation on AE admins (we have Clarification anyway). All users need to be protected from the caprice and injustice that this would cause. AE admins have a duty to ignore arbs if they try to interfere in the process, but the arbs themselves should know better (this is not addressed to Kiril or Shell, who are recused). The current wording is indeed badly written, but clearly implies that Piotrus should not be allowed to edit any EE article if there is likely to be some kind of nationalist dispute involved. It is established principle of AE enforcement that rulings are interpreted broadly. You may be telling the truth regarding your own intent, but it is irrelevant, since you didn't word the draft well enough to make that intent clear. If you wanted something that allowed Piotrus to edit uncontroversially in the area, that may be respectable ... but it needed more thought. Piotrus could have been restricted to Poland-only articles with content not impinging on the histories of other European countries (as presently defined). He would probably try his luck at stretching and lawyering this, but it is a set of limits that AE admins don't need expertise to enforce AND would fulfill much of the purpose.

Disclosure requests

I received an email from a non-involved user in this matter informing me that he was canvassed for the AE thread by Piotrus. The email itself contained a quite dishonest account of Mkativerata's block. Because of this I think it would be of benefit to the project if those canvassed would disclose that they were canvassed. I'd also like to request that all arbitrators who have met Piotrus personally disclose this. This in itself is not a reason for recusal, but the onlooking community are entitled to know if any users subject to ArbCom rulings may have been able to exert more influence than others.

Response to NYB

Newyorkbrad, yes, you may have envisioned your draft in a particular way, but that doesn't mean other arbs who voted on it did; and even if other arbs now claim to have had the same understanding, there is no way of verifying this. AE admins are entitled to use the most obvious meaning of a text, and one individual arbitrator trying to insist on [the] one 'real meaning' [he happens to like] of a resolution after the resolution has passed is ill-advised. Imagine if this were to happen all the time. ;)

Response to Shell

I think Shell's comments here and on my talk page should speak for themselves. In response, I'd point out that she was accusing me of several things, including bearing a grudge against Piotrus. This is frequently stated by EEML because they wish to defuse the impact of my comments. SK's has seemingly been inadvertently co-opted as a mouthpiece. My previous interaction with her came when she lambasted me for complaining about Piotrus closing a 3RR thread Radek was involved in and warning his opponent as an admin. I don't wish to have any dispute with her, but being attacked seems to be a consequence of sticking up for wikipedia on this matter. Incidentally, I didn't 'dig up' the photo, I was sent a link to it by an anonymous Wikipedian. I merely asked if they were RL friends. She didn't really have any reason to get so worked up with bad faith about this, as she is recused and is free even to join EEML if she wants. :) Deacon of Pndapetzim (Talk) 22:49, 18 January 2011 (UTC)

PS, I don't think it is credible for Shell to be claiming neutrality at this stage (if that's what she's doing), not with edits like this so recently. It is well known that Piotrus' best skill, as boasted in the archive, is befriending users likely to intervene in EE disputes (amicable co-operation, followed by 'advice' stage). She's now calling for gagging order on me, something long desired by Piotrus and the EEML (Feb 5, 2009 at 20:49); however she had been relying on Piotrus' advice for banning users in pre-EEML days (22 June 2009 16:05) and her largely favorable of history decision-making and spokeswomanship vis-a-vis EEML led a member of the EEML to describe her as a potential "asset" [6/28/2009 4:19:31 P.M]. Not that I am alleging corruption or anything (it should be clear that I'm not), I just think she may have lost her way a bit. Deacon of Pndapetzim (Talk) 01:39, 19 January 2011 (UTC)

Re Shell ... the time and date are references to EEML archive emails. Sorry for not making that clear. I will continue this discussion with you on your talk page if you don't mind, since a big back-and-forth here is probably not very useful. Deacon of Pndapetzim (Talk) 02:03, 19 January 2011 (UTC):I responded to Shell, but unfortunately she is not willing to take the back forth off this page and would prefer to escalate her dispute with me here.[27] I am not willing to dilute my comments here any further with what will only be perceived as squabbling, but can at least say I tried to take it elsewhere (and she can continue the convo on her own page any time she likes whenever she calms down). Deacon of Pndapetzim (Talk) 02:31, 19 January 2011 (UTC)

Statement by Vecrumba

There is no "wikilawyering," the so-called "conflict" related to the representation of the Soviet legacy in Eastern Europe and other current conflicts regarding historical representation/legacy are what are in scope to "conflict" which Piotrus should still continue to avoid until expiration of the current ban or lifted. I suggest topic bans be more precisely worded in the future and adjusted as needed. An admin (Deacon) leveling accusations of wikilawyering is unhelpful when a ban is demonstrably open to misinterpretation as worded. I am disappointed by Deacon's inability to move on from his past (content, spilling into his filing an arbitration request) conflict with Piotrus. PЄTЄRS J VЄСRUМВА ►TALK 23:05, 17 January 2011 (UTC)

Consider my disappointment to be escalated to outright alarm based on Deacon's grossly poor judgement exhibited here, which appears to be little more than an escalating vendetta against all past EEML members. I sat out my topic ban only to have an admin propose—over a year later—institutionalizing permanent abuse? PЄTЄRS J VЄСRUМВА ►TALK 04:57, 19 January 2011 (UTC)

re: Mkativerata: I occasionally contact admins et al. to express my concerns when doing so on-Wiki would lead to accusations of block shopping, needless escalation of conflict, et al. (I recall a note to Mkativerata some time ago, we had a cordial exchange.) I always include a clear statement I am not block shopping. An admin who becomes active in EE topics should expect to receive complaints and commentary from the full spectrum of EE editorial contributors. Mkativerata should not be "surprised" about being contacted. And why bring contact up if there has been no inappropriate contact here? Witness the needless drama already caused with Skäpperöd's resultant (and not wholly unwarranted given the implication of inappropriate contact) witch hunting. I would request that if any admin feels anyone has contacted them inappropriately (block shopping et al.) that an AN/I be opened and the inappropriate contact be addressed. Seeking sanctions behind editors' backs is a perpetual problem in many areas of conflict and should be addressed and discouraged. PЄTЄRS J VЄСRUМВА ►TALK 03:01, 19 January 2011 (UTC)

re: Timotheus Canens, the locus of contention is present day conflicts in the portrayal of Soviet legacy, also, more widely but to a lesser extent, other Eastern European/Central Eastern European conflicts regarding portrayal of topics, e.g., people names and place names ("which language" is uber alles, etc.), similarly with roots in historical representation. Obviously, some of this will also pertain to armed conflicts between parties. However, a past war in some century is not an in-scope conflict if there is no scholarly dispute regarding its portrayal—or any differences in historical sources have been dealt with amicably and constructively. PЄTЄRS J VЄСRUМВА ►TALK 16:58, 19 January 2011 (UTC)

P.S. So thank you for T. Canen's wording suggestion, that is sufficient to address. PЄTЄRS J VЄСRUМВА ►TALK 17:20, 19 January 2011 (UTC)

Statement by Skäpperöd

Question to Mkativerata

Who sent you those e-mails? I am asking because trying to influence/cause administrative decisions by coordinating e-mails etc to AE sysops like Thatcher, Sandstein, Jehochman etc was one of the verified tactics employed by the EEML group, usually coordinated by Piotrus. If this strategy is now being re-activated, there ought to be consequences. Skäpperöd (talk) 17:03, 18 January 2011 (UTC)

Extended content

Can you actually link to a "verified e-mail coordination to sysops" finding by arbitrators in EEML ArbCom case, or is this yet another imaginary horror that EEML is supposed to have done, despite not a single shred of evidence? --Sander Säde 17:12, 18 January 2011 (UTC) Are you one of the senders? If that is the case, you are welcome to self-identify and explain yourself in your own section. I don't want a threaded discussion here. Skäpperöd (talk) 17:31, 18 January 2011 (UTC) So, you are unable to link a such finding. Maybe because there never was anything like that? And no, I have never sent an e-mail to Mkativerata. --Sander Säde 17:39, 18 January 2011 (UTC) The EEML archive is available to the arbs, they (should) have read through it and be aware. I am happy to hear that you are not among the senders, but please, don't post here anymore, this is not the place for a threaded discussion. You are free to create your own section. Regards Skäpperöd (talk) 17:51, 18 January 2011 (UTC)

Re Shell Kinney

ShellKinney and Piotrus on 15 Jan 2011, the picture that triggered the debate

I understand you are upset about Deacon asking you about how close your contact to Piotrus is. If you take a step back and look at the issue from an outside point of view, and if you recall that manipulating sysops was one of the EEML's objectives, you may find that it is reasonable to aks such questions:

Please imagine how a random observer must react to the picture showing you looking at Piotrus. I found it interesting to see an arb having RL contact to a user desysoped and convicted because of several cases of off-wiki-coordinated disruption. You probably underestimate the impact such photographies may have on people. To the personal atmosphere between Piotrus and you suggested by this photography, it adds that

• few other wikipedians were there, and you signed up when Piotrus was already on the list [28],
• your short on-wiki chat with Piotrus [29] [30] and the lack of such an exchange with other participants
• you responding first (and positive) to Piotrus' call for another meeting [31]

Imho none of this proves that Piotrus and you are really close friends, but your contact and the fact that the EEML was about social networking of an interest group, using Piotrus' sociology expertise for manipulation, may reasonably give rise to concerns about what's going on there. And what has happened now is that Piotrus has already used your comments here to call for action against his long-time target Deacon [32].

Please keep in mind that it was Deacon who started the Piotrus2 arbcom, and had arbcom not been fooled in that case and taken preventive measures, the whole EEML fuzz would not even have happened. You should AGF that Deacon, who was proven more than right during the EEML arbcom, is doing nothing but protecting wikipedia now as he did back then. You should be aware of what makes protection necessary, as you removed a bunch of Piotrus' deeds from his last amendment request [33].

Re Georgewilliamherbert

I disagree about the "punishing not preventative" part. Arbcom has taken no precautions at all against the continuation of the EEML, except for the topic bans. The topic bans are therefore preventative. Instead of lifting the bans one by one, arbcom should think about how future detrimental EEML activity may be prevented. Skäpperöd (talk) 03:15, 20 January 2011 (UTC)

Statement by Shell Kinney

I suppose it was too much to hope that the usual players in these disputes would have decided to put this behind them during the past year. It's disappointing to see Deacon re-entering this same dispute against Piotrus after so long. It's a bit worrying to see that he dug up a picture, hours after it had been posted, identified both people in the picture (despite there being no names posted at that time) and is using it to suggest that having been to the same (large) Wikipedia event with someone is somehow evidence of impropriety[34]. Shortly thereafter, he accused me of slander for pointing out these concerns, which is wholly inappropriate to say the least [35]. If one must really reach that far to find a grue, perhaps the grues are just a figment of your imagination (or in other words, if someone thinks I was actually discussing ArbCom business during a Pittsburgh playoff game and Wikipedia birthday party, their poor opinion of my social life is noted but unsupportable). Shell ^babelfish 17:49, 18 January 2011 (UTC)

Deacon speaks volumes about "being attacked", yet he seems to be the only one hurling accusations here (sans diffs) as he now blithely claims that independent editors should be disregarded as mouthpieces and can go join EEML. On one hand he's terribly concerned that people are getting emails off-site, and on the other, a mysterious stranger, not he, was responsible for the creepiness over the new image and he's just the harmless by-stander who received an email. I'm concerned that this point that we're seeing a rather obvious reemergence of previous battleground behavior now that so many of these topic bans are coming to a close. Perhaps this is another place where an interaction ban would be appropriate. Shell ^babelfish 22:57, 18 January 2011 (UTC)

Deacon, I guess I'm at a loss to understand what you're getting at here? Can you explain what exactly you find nefarious about the single diff you've provided to back up your claims whose content is nothing more than "Aww you left a few minutes too early."? Or perhaps explain why the other accusations you made aren't accompanied by diffs while some give only a date and time? I'd suggest that you've not got a very clear view of my administrative actions in the EE topic area if you think the outcome of investigations such as this one were favorable to one side. You've already mentioned that you feel you're defending Wikipedia here[36] but from what exactly? Shell ^babelfish 01:54, 19 January 2011 (UTC)

Unfortunately since you made these claims here in public, I'd prefer you deal with them here as well rather than take it off to my talk page. You've now made accusations against me based on private emails to which I have no access from a mailing list I had no part of and left me with no ability to review this supposed evidence or defend myself from it. I guess I'm just not understanding the zeal to paint me as involved or acting inappropriately here. You are aware that I'm recused from this case because I presented evidence against Piotrus? Shell ^babelfish 02:16, 19 January 2011 (UTC)

I don't think a simple request that Deacon either provide some basis for these escalating accusations or strike them is unreasonable. Perhaps a good first step would be to remove anything based of a "personal feeling"[37] so that other editors can review anything based on evidence and give us some guidance on whether or not they consider me biased or a mouthpiece of EEML here. Shell ^babelfish 02:40, 19 January 2011 (UTC)

Deacon, Skäpperöd, I've had some time to think over your concerns, I believe you may really be on to something here. Having looked at a number of other photographs from that evening, it's clear that a disturbing pattern emerges; I imagine you'd shudder just to see them. It turns out several other photgraphs caught me looking at people, obviously in the midst of plotting some dastardly scheme. In others, you can easily identify who I've managed to recruit as I was seen to be shaking hands with them to seal the deal. There are also photos of me flitting from person to person, most certainly canvassing for additional support and even supplying them with small trinkets to ensure their loyalty. And finally, the most damning of all, one clearly subsurvient Wikipedian was forced to give up his chair for me just so I could order from the bar. In all, an incredibly productive night for my plans to take over Wikipedia. If only there wasn't photographic evidence!</humor> Apologies to those who don't necessarily appreciate using humor here, but I honestly couldn't come up with a serious answer to defend myself from having been caught looking at someone. Shell ^babelfish 08:11, 20 January 2011 (UTC)

Statement by Georgewilliamherbert

Specific to this removal request - I believe that there's credible evidence that the restriction is at this time merely punitive and not preventive of abusive behavior. This is reinforced by other comments which seek to use it in a punitive and not preventive manner. Pursuant to our general policy and lack of evident current or recent abusive behavior by the requesting party, that seems to argue for early removal of the restriction. If misbehavior appears again it's easy enough for admins to intervene within our usual scope and authority.

Generally - There seems to be lingering bad blood on several parties' account, without justifiable ongoing provocation, to the extent that an interaction ban is called for. This seems like not the right venue for that, but it may be appropriate on AN. I'm not starting one right away, but that seems like the next step. Georgewilliamherbert (talk) 03:59, 19 January 2011 (UTC)

Statement by other editor (2)

{Other editors are free to comment on this amendment as necessary. Comments here should be directed only at the above proposed amendment.}

Further discussion

Statements here may address all the amendments, but individual statements under each proposed amendment are preferred. If there is only one proposed amendment, then no statements should be added here.

Clerk notes

This section is for administrative notes by the clerks (including clerk recusals).

Arbitrator views and discussion

• We will allow a few days in case any other users wish to comment on this request, before considering whether to take any action. Comments may focus on whether the topic-ban should be lifted altogether, as Piotrus requests, and/or on whether its current wording ought to be clarified. Newyorkbrad (talk) 17:18, 6 January 2011 (UTC)
  • Given that my prior attempt to word a narrower restriction has become the subject of criticism, that it placed a burden on the sanctioned user and on the AE administrators, and that the new group of arbitrators can take a fresh look at this matter, I will leave it to my colleagues to propose any desired motion here. For what it is worth, I disagree with any suggestion that it was improper for me to post to clarify the intent of a sanction I drafted; I see no downside to having done that when the issue came to light, rather than awaiting an appeal that probably would have taken longer than the block length. Newyorkbrad (talk) 23:44, 17 January 2011 (UTC)
• I'm inclined to either modify the wording in the manner by described by T. Canens, that is change from "articles about national, ethnic, or cultural disputes" to "article about, or subject to, present-day national, ethnic, or cultural disputes", or alternatively remove the ban outright. PhilKnight (talk) 15:35, 12 January 2011 (UTC)
• Basically what Phil, and Brad stated. My first thought is to modify, second is to remove. SirFozzie (talk) 19:07, 12 January 2011 (UTC)
  • I note with alarm the escalation in the rhetoric and the public displays of ill-will that is happening. Please folks, back to your corners, more light, less heat? SirFozzie (talk) 05:01, 19 January 2011 (UTC)
• I doesn't seem like a good use of time to agonize over rewording/modification to be more clear when the restrictions will expire in a little over two months - so my first choice would be to simply lift the restrictions early. –xeno^talk 19:33, 12 January 2011 (UTC)

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