Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Aegean Macedonians

Aegean Macedonians

Aegean Macedonians (edit | talk | history | protect | delete | links | watch | logs | views) (delete) – (View log)

Blatant POV fork    Avg    17:11, 11 May 2008 (UTC)

• Delete - Obvious POV fork based on an irredentist term. --Laveol ^T 17:14, 11 May 2008 (UTC)
• Keep --Raso mk (talk) 17:17, 11 May 2008 (UTC)

• Comment Why? --Thinboy00 @766, i.e. 17:23, 11 May 2008 (UTC)

• Delete. Appears to be a POV fork. Nsk92 (talk) 17:24, 11 May 2008 (UTC)
• Keep why to delete? --MacedonianBoy (talk) 17:49, 11 May 2008 (UTC)
• Delete POV-fork. 3rdAlcove (talk) 18:26, 11 May 2008 (UTC)
• Comment POV fork of what? JeremyMcCracken (talk) (contribs) 19:32, 11 May 2008 (UTC)

  Of Macedonians (ethnic group), also pushing a specific POV (by using irredentist terms), which states all Slavophone Greeks have a Slavic Macedonian conscience.--   Avg    20:06, 11 May 2008 (UTC)

  What are u talking about Avg???--Raso mk (talk) 20:16, 11 May 2008 (UTC)

  I Have never written that all slavophone greeks have an ethnic macedonian identity. Because they dont! Only some identify as ethnic macedonians.P m kocovski (talk) 21:51, 11 May 2008 (UTC)

  What "Aegean Macedonians" means in the first place? It means the Macedonians who come from "Aegean Macedonia" (an already controversial term). Well it happens that there are 2.5 million people in "Aegean Macedonia" who are Greeks. They should also be "Aegean Macedonians", but they're not even mentioned to your article. Anyway, forgetting that, you've started an article detailing the Slavic migration to Macedonia and the Slavic culture in Macedonia, thereby automatically creating the connection that all Slavophones = Ethnic Macedonians. And on top of that you put in the mix dubious figures, controversial claims, irredentist beliefs. So to sum it up: POV fork.--   Avg    22:22, 11 May 2008 (UTC)

  No, it is a regional identifier used by ethnic macedonians to distinguish themselves from other ethnic macedonians. Greeks use the term Greek Macedonian, ethnic macedonians use the term Aegean Macedonian. AND no i am not implying that all the slavophone greeks identify as macedonians, the fact that they share a similar culture and heritage to the ethnic macedonians is UNAVOIDABLE. That is no reason delete an article because they have similarities to another group of people! Dubious figures, go and have a look at the many greek pages and then tell me about dubious figures. Oh, and if i was being irredentist there would be 1,000,000 ethnic macedonians in greece, that is irredentist.P m kocovski (talk) 22:36, 11 May 2008 (UTC)

  Since you mentioned it, Greeks use the term "Macedonian" and not "Greek Macedonian". This is how they identify themselves. Please have a look at Macedonia (terminology) if you have doubts about it. Now the primary reason to delete this article is that it was created to bypass the established NPOV in Ethnic Macedonians and Slavophone Greeks articles, since it uses data that was debunked/unacceptable in the relevant articles, plus it uses offending and controversial terminology.--   Avg    22:48, 11 May 2008 (UTC)

• Delete blatant POV fork. --Tsourkpk (talk) 22:54, 11 May 2008 (UTC)
• Delete POV-fork Reaper7 (talk) 22:56, 11 May 2008 (UTC)
• Keep ; anything to do with ethnic macedonians in greece seems to be POVP m kocovski (talk) 07:36, 12 May 2008 (UTC)
• Keep Greek users: If you think a rename is needed, get a consensus. If it looks POV, discuss it and edit. Don't just try to delete it because it "offends" you. Articles are meant to be written in summary style anyway. Laveol: cut the crap - Bulgarians use this term too; it isn't irredentist. BalkanFever 10:05, 12 May 2008 (UTC)

  This is not a renaming matter. It's pure POV pushing. No wonder that only Slavomacedonian editors vote "Keep".--   Avg    12:11, 12 May 2008 (UTC)

• Delete. Terms such as "Aegean Macedonians" and "Aegean Macedonia" are Slavomacedonian nationalistic terms used to refer to the region of Macedonia in Greece, in the context of a United Macedonia. The Cat and the Owl (talk) 11:31, 12 May 2008 (UTC)
  • Comment No, "Aegean Macedonia" is used in Serbian and Bulgarian. Unless you are accusing Serbs and Bulgarians of being nationalists. And no, in the Macedonian language, "Aegean Macedonia" is used regardless of a so-called "United Macedonia context". Hard for a Greek nationalist such as yourself to understand, I know. BalkanFever 12:06, 12 May 2008 (UTC)
    • Do you see me using it? What crap should I be cutting since this is what I think of the term's use in English?--Laveol ^T 13:09, 12 May 2008 (UTC)
    • Naming, actually it is a term used Slavic peoples, and Bulgarians! and Serbs and Croats. It is not ethnic macedonian propaganda.P m kocovski (talk) 12:18, 12 May 2008 (UTC)
    • It is irrelevant what's the term in any language except English. And if any non-English language terminology should be used for people located in Greece, then it should be Greek, so you know the drill...--   Avg    12:19, 12 May 2008 (UTC)
    • In other words, it's a generic South Slavic term conceived by countries (Yugoslavia and Bulgaria) that never wanted Macedonia to be part of Greece in the first place. I'm sure it doesn't have irredentist connotations for the Serbs who use it today (do they really prefer it over Грчка Македонија?), but its original intention can hardly be overlooked. ·ΚΕΚΡΩΨ· (talk) 12:28, 12 May 2008 (UTC)
• Delete WP:POVFORK. NikoSilver 12:25, 12 May 2008 (UTC)
• Keep, possibly merge. The group exists, even if by some accounts its remnants in Greece itself may be small. Not a POV fork of Macedonians (ethnic group), because it deals with a subgroup of the latter. Not a POV fork of Slavophone Greeks, because that one deals with those Slavophones who opted for a Greek national identity, therefore constituting a different group even though mutual delimitation may be fleeting. Wikipedia precedent is to allow articles on national minority groups. Naming is not prima facie an obvious problem because this is certainly their self-identifying term. Predominant usage in English can be checked and reconsidered. Merging with Slavophone Greeks is an option, possibly under a third title, if both national identifications can be treated fairly in one. Fut.Perf. ☼ 13:46, 12 May 2008 (UTC)

  The topic is covered already in three different articles: Macedonians_(ethnic_group)#Greece, Minorities_in_Greece#Christian_Orthodox_Slavophones, Slavophone Greeks. So this is clearly a content fork. This can easily be attested by the level of data that is duplicated in this article. Now it is also a POV fork, since it uses the irredentist term "Aegean" (see Aegean Macedonia), plus it attributes population figures for Slavophone Greeks to ethnic Macedonians, plus it attributes ethnic Macedonian diaspora figures again to this very subgroup, plus it considers as "Aegean Macedonians" people that their ethnicity is either Greek (see Kostas Novakis) or disputed (see Krste Misirkov), which clearly shows that there is an agenda behind this article. Again, this is a prime candidate for deletion. --   Avg    16:28, 12 May 2008 (UTC)

• Delete POV fork as stated above. _{El Greco}^(talk) 21:30, 12 May 2008 (UTC)

• Note: This debate has been included in the list of Greece-related deletion discussions. -- Fabrictramp (talk) 15:53, 12 May 2008 (UTC)
• Keep --MacedonianBoy (talk) 21:59, 12 May 2008 (UTC)