Wikipedia:Deletion review/Log/2024 April 6
6 April 2024
List of cult films (closed)
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The following is an archived debate of the deletion review of the page above. Please do not modify it. |
In this closure, the closer said "[A keep] argument was not successfully rebutted by the Delete views." Four of the keep votes came in during the final day of the AFD – following a canvass of previous keep voters – that I didn't see and I don't think there was enough time to allow for responses. With a final !vote of 6–5, I do not believe there was a consensus to keep already, and I request that it be relisted for further discussion. I also have concern about the closer's comparison "similar to that of List of films considered the worst" – that page is a contextual prose article in that sense more similar to the corresponding main article here, cult film, rather than 27 alphabetical pages of thousands of simple bullet points, so this feels like a supervote to me. Reywas92Talk 00:35, 7 April 2024 (UTC)
Notes
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The above is an archive of the deletion review of the page listed in the heading. Please do not modify it. |
Kansas City shooting (closed)
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The following is an archived debate of the deletion review of the page above. Please do not modify it. |
Based on an analysis of the votes, it’s in between disambiguation and no consensus. The discussion was tainted by WP:BLUDGEON behaviour by Thruddyulf as well. Some of the votes are based on the length of time between nominations, which for a current event must be discounted. Discounting those votes, the consensus is clear that disambiguation is the correct shooting. Keep voters completely contradicted WP:RECENTISM, WP:10YT, etc. And regarding the Google searches - when I looked up Kansas City shooting, this was the first result, then this, then this and only my 4th article is about it. Granted, those shootings don’t have articles, but the media hype about this is dying down and it’s blatantly obvious that in a few months, this will be just as talked about as those other shootings that have articles. Finally, the closure gave no justification for their closure, so they didn’t even explain it. At least if they explained it, there’s logic that this controversial decision is based off of.24.89.159.222 (talk) 23:10, 6 April 2024 (UTC)
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The above is an archive of the deletion review of the page listed in the heading. Please do not modify it. |
Sindhuja Rajaraman
The rationale to delete carried more weight. The subject article on its reading appears non-notable. Coverage is not substantial but sensationalism/churnalism. Marked for updation since 2015. Thanks, Please feel free to ping/mention -- User4edits (T) 06:04, 6 April 2024 (UTC)
- Overturn I don't believe keep was a reasonable close - those arguing for keep were not doing so very strongly, and those arguing against WP:BLP1E didn't really make strong arguments either (either confusing 1E and SUSTAINED, or saying "age is not an event" though the event is clearly becoming a young CEO). I think possible results of this discussion were no consensus and delete, and I would have closed as delete, but any result that's not keep is fine by me. SportingFlyer T·C 19:29, 6 April 2024 (UTC)
- Overturn to No Consensus. The closer's reasoning would be good reasoning for a Keep !vote, but is a supervote as a close. Although a close is not a vote count, the vote count should be given some weight, and there were four good-faith Delete statements including the nominator but excluding the blocked editor, and three good-faith Keep statements. The Delete arguments should not have been discounted. After two previous relists, the close should be changed to No Consensus, and a new nomination can be made in two months. Robert McClenon (talk) 19:39, 6 April 2024 (UTC)
- Endorse as the closing admin. This was my assessment of the views expressed in that AfD:
- On the Delete side:
- User4edits, as nom, claiming:
- WP:1E - successfully countered by the Keeps
- WP:NOTWEBHOST - irrelevant
- ToadetteEdit claiming:
- BLP1E - successfully countered
- Esprit15d, claiming:
- "per nom"
- coverage not significant
- sources in foreign-language media re: animation work - irrelevant
- Bhivuti45 - user blocked
- RangersRus claiming:
- no international coverage - not a P&G argument
-
there are many other young CEOs who are and can be considered notable
- WP:OTHERSTUFFDOESNTEXIST
- On the Delete side:
- So while at first blush, the Delete participants have a small numerical advantage, once you sift the arguments down to P&G, other than the one claim by Esprit15d which was reasonably questioned by others, all guideline-based arguments fall on the Keep side. I believe that closing this as Delete would have given weight to IDONTLIKEIT-type arguments in favour of actual policy. I, personally, have no opinion about the article itself, so the accusation of a supervote is without basis. Owen× ☎ 21:02, 6 April 2024 (UTC)
- Thank you for the ping, it still appears to be a marginal !keep vote based on a re-review, but I'm not fussed either way, however we decide for it to go. Oaktree b (talk) 21:09, 6 April 2024 (UTC)
- I absolutely disagree the !keeps countered the WP:BLP1E argument, hence my overturn. SportingFlyer T·C 22:02, 6 April 2024 (UTC)
- The question, as I read the AfD, is not whether this is a person famous for one event or not. She clearly is only famous for that one event. The question is whether the event, and the person's role in it, meet all three WP:BLP1E criteria to qualify for deletion. I believe the Keep !voters successfully argued that it does not meet C#3, seeing as the event received significant national coverage in independent RS for eight years, and the person's role in it was pivotal. For WP:BLP1E, all three criteria need to be met to qualify for deletion. Owen× ☎ 22:51, 6 April 2024 (UTC)
- There were three !keep votes. The first vote doesn't understand why this is an "event." The second only says that there are two reliable sources. The third is a weak keep, saying they don't believe age isn't a BLP1E factor because coverage was sustained, which isn't part of BLP1E at all. Nobody in the discussion talks about C#3 either explicitly or implicitly. The way you're explaining your conclusion is starting to sound like a supervote. SportingFlyer T·C 23:02, 6 April 2024 (UTC)
- The question, as I read the AfD, is not whether this is a person famous for one event or not. She clearly is only famous for that one event. The question is whether the event, and the person's role in it, meet all three WP:BLP1E criteria to qualify for deletion. I believe the Keep !voters successfully argued that it does not meet C#3, seeing as the event received significant national coverage in independent RS for eight years, and the person's role in it was pivotal. For WP:BLP1E, all three criteria need to be met to qualify for deletion. Owen× ☎ 22:51, 6 April 2024 (UTC)
- "No international coverage" was taken out of context, mea culpa for poor choice of words. I intend to say that the young lady's achievement is not many and the company that she is CEO of is not notable. Her achievement is that she was the youngest CEO that got same repeated coverage in sources early on and that is all. She has no significant other achievement if you take another young CEO Advait Thakur, at the age of 15 who continued to earn more notable achievement till today like created an app for Google Assistant called "Autism Awareness" and awarded The Startup India's "Main 10 Young Entrepreneurs In India 2018" and also included in "India's Hottest Young Entrepreneurs Of 2018, "Most Influential Youth Marketing Professional of 2CMO Asia CMO Asia, Zoom, and the World Federation of Marketing Professionals' Global Youth Marketing Forum. Sindhuja's achievement is not substantial. RangersRus (talk) 10:11, 7 April 2024 (UTC)
- Endorse Being a CEO is not 1E per WP:WI1E, while becoming one might be. No consensus would have been reasonable closure as well, but overturning keep to no consensus is not worth our time. The fact that so much of Indian media is paid placement muddies the water a bit, but this was picked up internationally. Jclemens (talk) 23:09, 6 April 2024 (UTC)
- Endorse or a weak overturn to no consensus. It's clear that the sources are good here, but the concern is with WP:BLP1E. But this fails #3 and only weekly hits #2, because the coverage spans 8 years. TLAtlak 07:24, 7 April 2024 (UTC)
- Overturn (relist for more source discussion). The close reads Supervotery, OwenX stating his opinion/conclusion rather than quoting from the discussion. The discussion reads as just getting starting, except that it is tainted by being the football of a PAID turf war (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Administrators%27_noticeboard#What's_going_on_here?). The source analysis above belongs at AfD. The blocked editor's "churnalism" allegation needs examination by other users. Actually, it is probably best to call it "no consensus" or "tainted" and to allow a fresh nomination. --SmokeyJoe (talk) 11:36, 7 April 2024 (UTC)
- Overturn to no consensus to allow immediate renomination. Defining an event is done broadly in the context of BLP1E. Practically anything that someone in a deletion discussion labels an event could, ostensibly, be treated as an event for the purposes of that discussion. The discussion around construing the thing as "Being a CEO", i.e., as (arguably) not an event, or "becoming a CEO", i.e., as (arguably) an event, needed to have been more resolved for the closer to say that the BLP1E argument was "successfully countered" on the basis of how the claimed event was not an event. It is not clear if (and which) editors had "being" or "becoming" in mind, and it comes down to semantics to an extent. Overall, editors distinctly did not agree about the nature of the thing as an event or not-an-event. Discounting BLP1E-based !votes on the basis of how the "event" thesis was wrong had the character of a supevote. When what was discounted is counted in, it turns out that the discussion is unresolved. There were two relists and instead of overturning and relisting, it would be better to start with a fresh nomination. One that is laid out better.—Alalch E. 15:34, 7 April 2024 (UTC)
- I'm not sure where you saw any of that in my closing rationale. I did not discard any !vote based on the claim that it is or isn't an event. However, as I'm tla and I explained above, while the article falls under the jurisdiction of BLP1E, it does not meet the deletion criteria listed in that policy. As such, deletion "per BLP1E" is a discarded argument, no matter how many participants voiced it. We do not delete biographies of living people based on a single event if that event is significant, well documented, and the person's role in it is substantial, as determined by RS. Owen× ☎ 16:56, 7 April 2024 (UTC)
- I'm tla disagreed with your interpretation of BLP1E just above and is now blocked indefinitely. With all due respect, with each of your responses here, your decision sounds more and more supervotey. SportingFlyer T·C 17:17, 7 April 2024 (UTC)
- I'll try to reread everything and see if I can modify the above comment. It does seem to me now like I got partially sidetracked while coming up with it. But my impression is that recommendation should still be to overturn. —Alalch E. 03:36, 8 April 2024 (UTC)
- I'm not sure where you saw any of that in my closing rationale. I did not discard any !vote based on the claim that it is or isn't an event. However, as I'm tla and I explained above, while the article falls under the jurisdiction of BLP1E, it does not meet the deletion criteria listed in that policy. As such, deletion "per BLP1E" is a discarded argument, no matter how many participants voiced it. We do not delete biographies of living people based on a single event if that event is significant, well documented, and the person's role in it is substantial, as determined by RS. Owen× ☎ 16:56, 7 April 2024 (UTC)
- Overturn to No Consensus. I am not sure that the closer should just waive off BLP1E as a discarded argument. --Enos733 (talk) 02:35, 8 April 2024 (UTC)
- Weak overturn to NC Keep was a reasonable interpretation of this discussion but NC is a bit better. I agree with others here that the BLP1E concerns were not given quite enough weight. However there clearly was not consensus to delete and a third relist would not change that. I would advise the nominator here to take the advice at WP:RENOM if they wish to send back to AFD. Frank Anchor 11:05, 8 April 2024 (UTC)
- Endorse - The close was well reasoned both at the time of closing and above. The other possible read of the discussion is as no consensus in which case we would also keep the article so I don't see the point in continuing the discussion here. ~Kvng (talk) 01:09, 9 April 2024 (UTC)
- Overturn and delete in line with the consensus of the debate. I am also fine (as a second preference) with relisting. Stifle (talk) 07:36, 9 April 2024 (UTC)
- Overturn and relist for consideration of sourcing - while I think the issue of the WP:BLP1E is addressed, for me there is no consensus on the reliability of the sourcing, two deletes take issue (not considering the "international" angle) and the single (weak) keep !vote that addresses the issue acknowledges the sourcing is borderline. Regards, --Goldsztajn (talk) 22:55, 9 April 2024 (UTC)
- Relist. No consensus would have also been an appropriate closure. Discussion seems rather confused, and participants do not clearly indicate the are aware of the distinction between BIO1E and BLP1E. The fact that two of the participants have since been indefinitely blocked (1 keep, CU-blocked, 1 delete, for UPE) tilts me over towards a relist or immeidate renomination. Alpha3031 (t • c) 09:16, 11 April 2024 (UTC)
- Weak Overturn to "No Consensus". I don't see a guideline based consensus to delete in that discussion but reading an outright consensus to keep feels a bit too much like a supervote. This was a close call IMO. Eluchil404 (talk) 00:48, 22 April 2024 (UTC)