Wikipedia:Requests for comment/Jerusalem: Difference between revisions

Add links
From Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
Browse history interactively
← Previous editNext edit →
Content deleted Content added
VisualWikitext
Line 222: Line 222:
==== Oppose draft six ====
==== Oppose draft six ====
#Too pro-Palestinian. The Government of Israel is based out of Jerusalem.<font face="copperplate gothic light">[[User:Chris troutman|<span style="color:#36454F">Chris Troutman</span>]] ([[User talk:Chris troutman|<span style="color:#36454F">talk</span>]])</font> 15:59, 23 May 2013 (UTC)
#Too pro-Palestinian. The Government of Israel is based out of Jerusalem.<font face="copperplate gothic light">[[User:Chris troutman|<span style="color:#36454F">Chris Troutman</span>]] ([[User talk:Chris troutman|<span style="color:#36454F">talk</span>]])</font> 15:59, 23 May 2013 (UTC)
#"Israelis," "Palestinians" and "most nations" do not hold unambiguous collective opinions as if they were borgs. Also, the Israeli government is not claiming J. as "its" capital, but as the capital of Israel. [[User:Skäpperöd|Skäpperöd]] ([[User talk:Skäpperöd|talk]]) 16:02, 23 May 2013 (UTC)


==== Draft six threaded discussion ====
==== Draft six threaded discussion ====

Revision as of 16:02, 23 May 2013

Shortcut

This is a discussion to decide the content of the lead section of the Jerusalem article. It was mandated by the Arbitration Committee by motion in January 2013, and its result will be binding for three years. The structure of this page was arrived at through a moderated discussion conducted by Mr. Stradivarius. The RfC began at 11:00, 23 May 2013 (UTC), and will end at 11:00, 22 June 2013 (UTC). It will be closed by a panel of three experienced editors: Keilana, RegentsPark, and Pgallert.[reply]

The dispute over the lead of the Jerusalem article is one of the oldest on Wikipedia, having first been debated in 2003. Since then it has generated more than 2784 KiB of wikitext in 149 discussion threads, including at least three previous RfCs. The dispute focuses on whether or not it is neutral to say that Jerusalem is the capital of Israel. Detailed information on legal and diplomatic positions held about Jerusalem by the international community can be seen in our article Positions on Jerusalem. — Mr. Stradivarius ♪ talk ♪ 11:00, 23 May 2013

Discussion structure

We have included two general discussion questions for you to answer, and seven drafts for you to comment on. Please answer the general questions using the "yes", "no", "other", and "threaded discussion" subsections provided. Similarly, when commenting on the drafts please use the "support", "support with revisions", "oppose", and "threaded discussion" subsections. Also, please note that the drafts may not be intended to be the first sentence of the lead, and that you may support as many drafts as you like.

In order to keep the general discussion questions on topic, we ask you to please refrain from asking new numbered questions after the two we have already worked out. However, you are of course welcome to ask new questions in the general discussion section. Also, regarding the drafts, we agreed in the moderated discussion that we would like editors to bring in fresh opinions. So you may add new drafts using the mechanism provided below. However, to keep us from having many similar drafts, we ask that you add a comment in the "support with revisions" section if you are only suggesting a minor improvement of an existing draft. New drafts should be reserved for major changes from existing drafts.

Finally, rather than include a detailed breakdown of all the talk page arguments made over the years, we have opted to include a summary of what reliable sources say about the subject of the dispute. We hope you will consider the positions of the sources carefully, and make informed comments based on both the sources and on Wikipedia policy. — Mr. Stradivarius ♪ talk ♪ 15:03, 21 May 2013 (UTC)[reply]

Source summary

The capital status of Jerusalem is complex, and there have been many different views expressed on it in reliable sources. The participants of the moderated discussion have collaboratively created a summary of these views:

  • Jerusalem is the capital of Israel under Israeli law.[1]
  • Few or no countries recognize Jerusalem as the capital of Israel.[2][3][4][5][6][7]
  • The capital status of Jerusalem is controversial. It is controversial to refer to Jerusalem as the capital of Israel,[8][9][10][11] and it is also controversial not to refer to it as the capital of Israel.[12][13][14][15] It is also controversial to refer to Jerusalem as the capital of Palestine.[16]
  • Some reputable sources use "Tel Aviv" as a metonym, as shorthand for 'Israel',[17][18][19][20][21] and some reputable sources refer to Tel Aviv as the capital of Israel.[22][23][24][25][26]
  • East Jerusalem, which our article treats as part of Jerusalem, is in the Palestinian territories and is occupied by Israel.[27][28][29]
  • Many sources list Jerusalem as the capital of Israel when there is little room for nuance, but in prose, sources often use qualifiers which show that the status as capital was achieved unilaterally.[30]
  • Palestine aspires to make Jerusalem its capital.[31]
  • The Israeli government made Jerusalem its seat of government and declared it its capital.[1][32]
  • There is very little support for the Israeli view regarding the sovereignty and capital status of Jerusalem (especially East Jerusalem).[33][34][35][36][37][38][39][40]
References
  1. ^ a b "Basic Law: Jerusalem, Capital of Israel". The State of Israel. Jerusalem, complete and united, is the capital of Israel.
  2. ^ James Vicini (2 May 2011). "Supreme Court to consider Jerusalem passport case". Reuters. While Israel calls Jerusalem its "eternal and indivisible" capital, few other states accept that status
  3. ^ Richard Boudreaux (18 November 2009). "U.S. criticizes Jerusalem plan for new housing". Los Angeles Times. "Jerusalem is Israel's capital and will remain as such." That position is universally rejected by other countries
  4. ^ "Romney: US has moral duty to block Iran nuclear plans". BBC. 29 July 2012. Mr Romney referred to Jerusalem as Israel's capital, something the current US administration and most of the international community do not do.
  5. ^ Serge Schmemann (2 March 1997). "A New Struggle For Jerusalem". The New York Times. even the United States has not recognized the city as Israel's capital
  6. ^ William R. Slomanson (2010). Fundamental Perspectives on International Law (6th ed.). Wadsworth. p. 87. ISBN 9780495797197. In Israel, most states (...) do not recognize Jerusalem as the capital of Israel, as claimed by Israel since 1950.
  7. ^ Victor Kattan (2012). "Competing Claims, Contested City: The Sovereignty of Jerusalem under International Law" (PDF). International Conference on Jerusalem. pp. 2, 17. no state recognizes Israel's sovereignty over Jerusalem in neither its eastern nor western half
  8. ^ "Palestinians attack Mitt Romney for 'racist' comments". BBC. 30 July 2012. Mr Romney caused controversy when he described Jerusalem as the country's capital
  9. ^ Rana Muhammad Taha (1 August 2012). "Romney's statements during Israel visit cause controversy". Daily News Egypt. Statements made by (...) Mitt Romney (...) have caused controversy worldwide (...) In a speech on Sunday Romney referred to Jerusalem as the capital of Israel
  10. ^ John Battersby (1 September 1995). "Israel's Celebration of Jerusalem Raises Eyebrows". The Christian Science Monitor. the ancient holy city is again embroiled in a controversy over Israeli and Palestinian claims to have Jerusalem as their capital
  11. ^ Raphael Ahren (29 March 2012). "Israel unfazed by Obama administration's refusal to say Jerusalem is the capital". The Times of Israel. In 2008, Obama (...) saying that "Jerusalem will remain the capital of Israel, and it must remain undivided." Controversy ensued
  12. ^ "BBC criticised after failing to identify capital on Olympic page". The Telegraph. 19 July 2012.
  13. ^ Raphael Ahren (8 August 2012). "Guardian: We were wrong to call Tel Aviv Israel's capital". The Times of Israel. The British Guardian newspaper on Wednesday acknowledged it was wrong to call Tel Aviv Israel's capital
  14. ^ "Democrats' headache over Jerusalem status". BBC. 6 September 2012. How to describe the city of Jerusalem has caused controversy
  15. ^ Christa Case Bryant (5 September 2012). "Jerusalem: Why Israelis and Palestinians, Democrats and Republicans fight over it". The Christian Science Monitor. By leaving support for Jerusalem as Israel's capital off its platform, the Democratic party sparked the latest fierce debate on the much-disputed city.
  16. ^ Barak Ravid (19 July 2012). "On BBC's Olympics website, Jerusalem is the capital of Palestine". Haaretz.
  17. ^ "U.S., Israel spar in public, but defense ties are strong". The Wall Street Journal. 4 May 2010. None of this means there aren't real strains between Washington and Tel Aviv
  18. ^ Isabelle Lasserre (19 January 2012). "Israël et les Etats-Unis divisés par la bombe nucléaire iranienne" (in French). Le Figaro. La bombe iranienne enfonce un coin dans les relations entre Washington et Tel Aviv. (The Iranian bomb has caused a split between Washington and Tel Aviv)
  19. ^ Tobias Buck (3 November 2010). "Spat mars Hague's Israel visit". The Financial Times. Tel Aviv continues to press Britain for reform of its laws on "universal jurisdiction" {{cite web}}: Unknown parameter |coauthors= ignored (|author= suggested) (help)
  20. ^ John Pilger (22 March 2004). "John Pilger on terror in Palestine". New Statesman. ...the law passed by Congress that imposes sanctions on Syria and in effect threatens it with the same fate as Iraq unless it agrees to the demands of Tel Aviv
  21. ^ "Suspected Israeli spies detained". The Sydney Morning Herald. 18 April 2004. She said the matter had been raised directly with the Tel Aviv government
  22. ^ Kevin Flower (23 September 2011). "Palestinians, Israelis talk Palestinian statehood bid". CNN. His opinion is echoed on the streets of Tel Aviv, Israel's capital city.
  23. ^ "Israel beach body is missing Briton". London Evening Standard. 19 May 2003. The body of Omar Sharif was found in the capital Tel Aviv...
  24. ^ "Clinton joins Peres for birthday bash". Irish Independent. 22 September 2003. A parade of global figures...arrived in the Israeli capital Tel Aviv last night...
  25. ^ "La explosión de un coche bomba cerca de Tel Aviv, Israel, deja al menos un muerto y varios heridos" (in Spanish). El País. 29 September 2006. Al menos una persona ha muerto y seis han resultado heridas tras la explosión de un coche en una localidad cercana a Tel Aviv, capital de Israel. (At least one person has died and six have been injured after a car exploded in a town close to Tel Aviv, the capital of Israel.)
  26. ^ Martin Fletcher (16 November 2012). "Wake-up call for Israel's city that never sleeps". NBC News. ...air raid sirens sound in the Israeli capital Tel Aviv for the second day...
  27. ^ Malki, Riad, "The Physical Planning of Jerusalem", in Ma'oz, Moshe; Nusseibeh, Sari (eds.), Jerusalem: Points Beyond Friction-And Beyond, Kluwer Law International, p. 27, ISBN 9789041188434, East Jerusalem constitutes only one percent of the total area of the Occupied Territories (OT)—the West Bank and Gaza Strip, including East Jerusalem— ...
  28. ^ Happold, Matther (2001), "The Conference of High Contracting Parties to the Fourth Geneva Convention", Yearbook of International Humanitarian Law, vol. 4, Cambridge University Press, ISBN 978-9067041690, On 5 December 2001, a conference of the High Contracting Parties to the Fourth Geneva Convention concerning the application of international humanitarian law in the occupied Palestinian territories, including East Jerusalem, took place in Geneva.

    The meeting of the Conference was the culmination of a long political process. Since the 1967 Six Day War, Israel has been in occupation of the West Bank, East Jerusalem, and the Gaza Strip.

  29. ^ Roberts, Adam. "Prolonged Military Occupation: The Israeli-Occupied Territories Since 1967". The American Journal of International Law. 84 (1). American Society of International Law: 60. Although East Jerusalem and the Golan Heights have been brought directly under Israeli law, by acts that amount to annexation, both of these areas continue to be viewed by the international community as occupied, and their status as regards the applicability of international rules is in most respects identical to that of the West Bank and Gaza.
  30. ^ "CIA - The World Factbook - Israel". CIA. 29 April 2013. Israel proclaimed Jerusalem as its capital in 1950, but the US, like all other countries, maintains its Embassy in Tel Aviv
  31. ^ John Quigley (2005). The Case For Palestine: An International Law Perspective. Duke University Press. p. 225. ISBN 9780822335399. (...) no single territorial sector is more contested than Jerusalem, which both sides claim as their capital. (...) When the Palestine National Council issued its call for independence in 1988, it declared "the establishment of the State of Palestine in the land of Palestine with its capital in Jerusalem.
  32. ^ "CIA - The World Factbook - Israel". CIA. 29 April 2013. Capital - name: Jerusalem (Note underneath - Israel proclaimed Jerusalem as its capital in 1950, but the US, like all other countries, maintains its Embassy in Tel Aviv)
  33. ^ Lapidoth, Ruth. "Jerusalem – Some Legal Issues". The Jerusalem Institute for Israel Studies. pp. 21–26. Retrieved 07/04/2013Reprinted from: Rüdiger Wolfrum (Ed.), The Max Planck Encyclopedia of Public International Law (Oxford University Press, online 2008-, print 2011)
  34. ^ John Quigley (2005). The Case For Palestine: An International Law Perspective. Duke University Press. p. 93. ISBN 9780822335399.
  35. ^ Mosheh Amirav (2009). Jerusalem Syndrome: The Palestinian-Israeli Battle for the Holy City. Sussex Academic Press. pp. 26–27. ISBN 9781845193485.
  36. ^ Henry Cattan. "The Status of Jerusalem under International Law and United Nations Resolutions". Journal of Palestine Studies. 10 (3 (Spring 1981)). University of California Press. doi:10.2307/2536456.
  37. ^ UN Resolution 478.
  38. ^ "Basic Law: Jerusalem, Capital of Israel". The State of Israel.
  39. ^ Raphael Ahren (8 August 2012). "Guardian: We were wrong to call Tel Aviv Israel's capital". The Times of Israel. The British Guardian newspaper on Wednesday acknowledged it was wrong to call Tel Aviv Israel's capital, but reiterated its stance that Jerusalem is not the capital either, since it is not recognized as such by the international community." This retraction was the result of a ruling by the Press Complaints Commission.
  40. ^ Fania Domb (2007). "19. The Separation Fence in the International Court of Justice and the High Court of Justice: Commonalities, Differences and Specifics". In Michael Schmitt, Jelena Pejic (ed.). International Law and Armed Conflict, Exploring the Fault Line: Essays in Honour of Yoram Dinstein. Brill. p. 512. ISBN 9789004154285.

General questions

Question one

Is it compliant with WP:NPOV to state 'Jerusalem is the capital of Israel.'?

Please answer either "yes", "no", or "other" in the relevant section below, giving a detailed rationale for your choice.

Question one: Yes

  1. Yes, Israel has a capital and it is in Jerusalem. There's no "point of view" involved here, just simple fact. Chris Troutman (talk) 15:52, 23 May 2013 (UTC)[reply]

Question one: No

  1. The statement is too simplistic. A more nuanced statement composed from the sourced statements above would be better. Jehochman Talk 12:23, 23 May 2013 (UTC)[reply]
  2. No. Too simple, no room for details.--Ymblanter (talk) 12:47, 23 May 2013 (UTC)[reply]
  3. No. Agreed that it is "too simple" and that details or qualifications of that statement should be appended to it. Sure it is a truth, but it's a qualified truth, so logically a qualified truth that doesn't explain the mitigating conditions associated with its truth is a lie by omission. --ColonelHenry (talk) 14:08, 23 May 2013 (UTC)[reply]
  4. No, that ignores the POV of nearly the entire world. nableezy - 14:17, 23 May 2013 (UTC)[reply]
  5. No, since sources say most of the world doesn't refer to Jerusalem as Israel's capital. --Dailycare (talk) 14:44, 23 May 2013 (UTC)[reply]
  6. Clearly not. --Wickey-nl (talk) 15:08, 23 May 2013 (UTC)[reply]
  7. No, too simple - Smallbones(smalltalk) 15:11, 23 May 2013 (UTC)[reply]
  8. Echoing about oversimplifying a complex topic. Collect (talk) 15:35, 23 May 2013 (UTC)[reply]
  9. No. It implies East Jerusalem is in Israel, which in international law, it is not. It is not treated as such either in many spheres of Israeli law. The apparently innocuous proposition is, implicitly, territorially appropriative and therefore violates WP:NPOV. Nishidani (talk) 15:45, 23 May 2013 (UTC)[reply]
  10. It needs to be neutral and not simplified. Ramaksoud2000 (Talk to me) 15:46, 23 May 2013 (UTC)[reply]


Question one: Other

  1. Is one statement with no context NPOV? Generally, not how NPOV works, but could it be in context, sure. Alanscottwalker (talk) 15:59, 23 May 2013 (UTC)[reply]

Question one threaded discussion

Question two

Is it compliant with WP:NPOV to state 'Jerusalem is the capital of Israel, though not internationally recognized as such.'?

Please answer either "yes", "no", or "other" in the relevant section below, giving a detailed rationale for your choice.

Question two: Yes

  1. Yes. A country decides what it's capital is going to be, and that decision is usually recognized by other countries. When it isn't, a statement is required to explain the issue. Jehochman Talk 12:24, 23 May 2013 (UTC)[reply]
  2. Yes, I have no problem with this statement, It is de-facto capital of Israel, not recognized by the majority of countries.--Ymblanter (talk) 12:48, 23 May 2013 (UTC)[reply]
  3. Yes. Agree with the two comments above.--ColonelHenry (talk) 14:09, 23 May 2013 (UTC)[reply]
  4. Yes. This is clearly accurate - capitals are self-determined (so even if no-one recognised Jerusalem as the country's capital, it still factually is), but as it isn't widely recognised, it's worth pointing it out. Number 57 14:17, 23 May 2013 (UTC)[reply]
  5. Yes, per User:Jehochman. Chris Troutman (talk) 15:55, 23 May 2013 (UTC)[reply]

Question two: No

  1. No. Much of what Israel calls "Jerusalem" is not in Israel. By giving the Israeli claim to it being the capital, we imply that it is "Israeli". The overwhelming majority of sources reject that position, and nearly every state on the planet considers East Jerusalem to be in the Palestinian territories, not in Israel. To call it the Israeli capital, even with the condition given, implicitly supports a position that the majority of sources reject. nableezy - 14:19, 23 May 2013 (UTC)[reply]
  2. This is not neutral since sources describe Jerusalem's alleged capital status as a major controversy and Wikipedia shouldn't take sides in those, rather we should describe the sides' arguments. Many sources say that Israel claims/considers/proclaims/etc Jerusalem to be its capital, but that this isn't accepted internationally. That should be the gist of our message. If most of the international community don't say Jerusalem is Israel's capital, neither should we.

    Here are a few sources that describe the issue:

    Israel (...) claims it as its capital

    Israel considers all of Jerusalem (...) as its capital, a position not accepted internationally

    http://www.reuters.com/article/2011/05/02/us-usa-israel-passport-idUSTRE7415IX20110502 While Israel calls Jerusalem its (...) capital, few other states accept that status]

    "Jerusalem is Israel's capital and will remain as such." That position is universally rejected by other countries

    page 87: "most States (...) do not recognize Jerusalem as the capital of Israel, as claimed by Israel"

    Mr Romney referred to Jerusalem as Israel's capital, something the current US administration and most of the international community do not do --Dailycare (talk) 14:41, 23 May 2013 (UTC)[reply]

  3. No as the first half of the sentence states as a fact a widely rejected fringe position. Something like "Israel and Palestine view Jerusalem as their capital, though its not internationally recognized as such" would be npov. Sepsis II (talk) 14:41, 23 May 2013 (UTC)[reply]
  4. No. People have said countries get to define their own capital. True, but in the modern nation state system they do not get to unilaterally define their own territory. Israel has designated its capital outside of its internationally recognized territory - which is why there is so much controversy over the issue. The statement under discussion assumes the minority Israeli position at the expense of the overwhelming majority opinion and is therefore inconsistent with WP:NPOV. For a fairly standard account of the issue see eg (P R. Kumaraswamy 2009): "The international community, however, does not recognize even West Jerusalem, let alone the post-1967 unified city, as Israel's capital. The United Nations and various other international forums and organisations have adopted innumerable resolutions condemning Israel's policy on Jerusalem. With the exception of a few Latin American countries, most states that have diplomatic ties with Israel consider Tel Aviv to be its capital."

    Israel has declared Jerusalem its capital and moved its government buildings to Jerusalem (these are facts), but what this means for the status of Jerusalem, both in terms of Israeli sovereignty and capital status is not decided. There is a significant divergence of opinions in WP:RELIABLE SOURCES on this and therefore per WP:NPOV we should not be stating it as a fact. A sample of viewpoints diverging from the Israeli opinion of the capital/sovereignty status of Jerusalem can be viewed here.

    Neutral, balanced sources such as the Encyclopaedia Britanica use language that is careful to state only the agreed facts without adopting the opinions of one of the parties ("Jerusalem is the seat of government and the proclaimed capital, although the latter status has not received wide international recognition."[1]) We aim to be a neutral and balanced source and we should be taking a similar approach. Dlv999 (talk) 14:51, 23 May 2013 (UTC)[reply]

  5. No ... still misses the point Collect (talk) 15:36, 23 May 2013 (UTC)[reply]
  6. No. The UN has rejected this. Ramaksoud2000 (Talk to me) 15:49, 23 May 2013 (UTC)[reply]
  7. No rmally, I would say: "Jerusalem is the capital of Israel and Palestine", but this case is not normal. If the whole world except Israel says "Jerusalem is not the capital of Israel", then stating that it is the capital, especially in the first sentence, is simply not true.

    You can only say "Israel has declared Jerusalem the capital of Israel, although this is internationally not recognized", and only combined with the Palestinian counterpart "Palestine has declared Jerusalem the capital of the State of Palestine". Whereby noticed, that the Palestinians speak of Jerusalem and not of East Jerusalem, even when it is East Jerusalem de facto. The whole point should preferably not be mentioned in the lead, but in the body, just because of its controversial character. --Wickey-nl (talk) 15:50, 23 May 2013 (UTC)[reply]

  8. No.' A country decides what its capital is going to be' (Jehochman). True, but no country, except Israel here, has decided its capital is outside of its legally defined, internationally recognized and sanctioned borders. That is the problem. You cannot stake your claim on both ground you own but include in the stake another man's contiguous patch. It is therefore, intrinsically, a contested claim. Nishidani (talk) 15:58, 23 May 2013 (UTC)[reply]

Question two: Other

Question two threaded discussion

Drafts

Drafts at a glance

We have created seven drafts for you to comment on. Please note that not all of these drafts are intended to be the first sentence of the lead. Some are intended to come later on in the lead, so please bear this in mind when you comment. Also, you may support as many drafts as you like. If you think a draft has merit, then please support it regardless of whether you have also supported other drafts. This will help us to judge what features of what drafts have the widest support, so that we can create new composite drafts if desired. And finally, please give detailed rationales for your choice of draft, based on Wikipedia policy. Some applicable policies and guidelines include:

Below is a list of all the drafts constructed for easy comparison. To comment on a draft, please use the discussion sections further down the page. — Mr. Stradivarius ♪ talk ♪ 15:37, 21 May 2013 (UTC)[reply]

  1. Jerusalem is the capital of Israel, though not internationally recognized as such. (discuss)
  2. Jerusalem is a city in Israel and the Palestinian territories. Since the 1967 Six-Day War, Israel has occupied East Jerusalem and has included it within its capital city. Palestine has designated Jerusalem its capital, though neither the Israeli or Palestinian claims have gained international recognition. (discuss)
  3. Jerusalem is the seat of the Israeli government, but its status as the capital of Israel has been unrecognized abroad. Instead, the international community considers the status of Jerusalem a matter to be resolved with Palestinians, who also see the city as the capital of a future independent state of their own. (discuss)
  4. Both Israel and Palestine claim Jerusalem as their respective capital, but the city isn't recognized internationally as a capital. (discuss)
  5. Jerusalem is the proclaimed capital and seat of the Israeli government and the proclaimed capital of Palestine, though the international community does not recognize either proclamation or ownership of the city. (discuss)
  6. Jerusalem has long been a point of contention in the Israeli-Palestinian conflict, with both Israelis and Palestinians seeing it as capital of their respective states. Although the Israeli government operates out of the city and has called the city its capital for decades, most nations do not recognize this status. (discuss)
  7. Jerusalem is one of the oldest cities in the world, considered holy to the three major Abrahamic religions—Judaism, Christianity and Islam [...] Israelis and Palestinians both claim Jerusalem as their capital, as Israel maintains its primary governmental institutions there and the State of Palestine ultimately foresees it as its seat of power; however, neither claim is widely recognized internationally. (discuss)
  8. Jerusalem is one of the oldest cities in the world, considered holy to the three major Abrahamic religions—Judaism, Christianity and Islam. The status of Jerusalem has long been a point of contention throughout history and in recent years in the context of the ongoing Israeli-Palestinian conflict. Since the 1967 Six-Day War, Israel has occupied East Jerusalem and has included it within its capital city. Israelis and Palestinians both claim Jerusalem as their capital, as Israel maintains its primary governmental institutions there and the State of Palestine ultimately foresees it as its seat of power; however, neither claim is widely recognized internationally. Instead, the international community considers the status of Jerusalem a matter to be resolved with Palestinians, who also see the city as the capital of a future independent state of their own. (discuss)

Draft one

^ view all drafts

Jerusalem is the capital of Israel, though not internationally recognized as such.

Please comment in the "support", "support with revisions", or "oppose" section below, giving a detailed rationale.

Support draft one

  1. Factually correct - capitals are self-determined, so what the international community thinks is irrelevant to that fact. However, that it is a controversy is also worth mentioning. Number 57 14:55, 23 May 2013 (UTC)[reply]

Support draft one with revisions

Oppose draft one

  1. Oppose as the first half of the sentence states a widely rejected fringe position as a fact in violation of NPOV. Sepsis II (talk) 14:47, 23 May 2013 (UTC)[reply]
  2. "Jerusalem is the capital of Israel" shouldn't be stated in wikipedia's neutral voice since most countries don't refer to Jerusalem as Israel's capital. --Dailycare (talk) 14:49, 23 May 2013 (UTC)[reply]
  3. Oppose because of the NPOV statement (per question 1 vide supra). This draft lacks all context that would adequately summarize and explain the issue.--ColonelHenry (talk) 14:56, 23 May 2013 (UTC)[reply]
  4. Per comments on if it is NPOV above. nableezy - 15:12, 23 May 2013 (UTC)[reply]
  5. Oppose, while it might be viewed as being technically correct by some, there are so many better choices that we might as well eliminate it. Smallbones(smalltalk) 15:16, 23 May 2013 (UTC)[reply]

Draft one threaded discussion

Draft two

^ view all drafts

Jerusalem is a city in Israel and the Palestinian territories. Since the 1967 Six-Day War, Israel has occupied East Jerusalem and has included it within its capital city. Palestine has designated Jerusalem its capital, though neither the Israeli or Palestinian claims have gained international recognition.

Please comment in the "support", "support with revisions", or "oppose" section below, giving a detailed rationale.

Support draft two

  1. This draft actually says where Jerusalem is and how it functions. 3rd choice. nableezy - 14:21, 23 May 2013 (UTC)[reply]

Support draft two with revisions

  1. This sounds good, although it may be read as endorsing Israel's universally rejected claim to having Jerusalem as its capital. Suggest to re-phrase this to " (...) has included it within its proclaimed capital city. Palestine has designated Jerusalem (...)".--Dailycare (talk) 14:52, 23 May 2013 (UTC)[reply]
  2. I think this draft does a good job of neutrally summarizing the Israeli-Palestinian conflict (and ongoing international situation), but elements of political facts (i.e. defining the nature of the capital status) and historical context is lacking. I proposed a combination of these elements in Draft 8.--ColonelHenry (talk) 14:54, 23 May 2013 (UTC)[reply]

Oppose draft two

Draft two threaded discussion

Draft three

^ view all drafts

Jerusalem is the seat of the Israeli government, but its status as the capital of Israel has been unrecognized abroad. Instead, the international community considers the status of Jerusalem a matter to be resolved with Palestinians, who also see the city as the capital of a future independent state of their own.

Please comment in the "support", "support with revisions", or "oppose" section below, giving a detailed rationale.

Support draft three

Support draft three with revisions

  1. Support, but would replace "with Palestinians" with "with the Palestinian authorities" - the Jerusalem case won't be negotiated with the Palestinian people(s) as a whole. Skäpperöd (talk) 15:02, 23 May 2013 (UTC)[reply]
  2. Support as closest to the actual state of affairs. Collect (talk) 15:38, 23 May 2013 (UTC)[reply]

Oppose draft three

Draft three threaded discussion

Draft four

^ view all drafts

Both Israel and Palestine claim Jerusalem as their respective capital, but the city isn't recognized internationally as a capital.

Please comment in the "support", "support with revisions", or "oppose" section below, giving a detailed rationale.

Support draft four

Support draft four with revisions

Oppose draft four

  1. Oppose: "Palestine" is a virtual and/or future state/concept. What there is now should not be described as some "Palestine" claiming a capital. Skäpperöd (talk) 15:22, 23 May 2013 (UTC)[reply]

Draft four threaded discussion

Draft five

^ view all drafts

Jerusalem is the proclaimed capital and seat of the Israeli government and the proclaimed capital of Palestine, though the international community does not recognize either proclamation or ownership of the city.

Please comment in the "support", "support with revisions", or "oppose" section below, giving a detailed rationale.

Support draft five

  1. Neutral, informative, with no room for misinterpretation. Sepsis II (talk) 14:44, 23 May 2013 (UTC)[reply]

Support draft five with revisions

Oppose draft five

  1. Oppose: "Palestine" is a virtual and/or future state/concept. What there is now should not be described as some "Palestine" claiming a capital. Skäpperöd (talk) 15:23, 23 May 2013 (UTC)[reply]

Draft five threaded discussion

Draft six

^ view all drafts

Jerusalem has long been a point of contention in the Israeli-Palestinian conflict, with both Israelis and Palestinians seeing it as capital of their respective states. Although the Israeli government operates out of the city and has called the city its capital for decades, most nations do not recognize this status.

Please comment in the "support", "support with revisions", or "oppose" section below, giving a detailed rationale.

Support draft six

Support draft six with revisions

  1. I think this draft does a good job of neutrally summarizing the Israeli-Palestinian conflict (and ongoing international situation), but elements of political facts (i.e. defining the nature of the capital status) and historical context is lacking. I proposed a combination of these elements in Draft 8.--ColonelHenry (talk) 14:51, 23 May 2013 (UTC)[reply]

Oppose draft six

  1. Too pro-Palestinian. The Government of Israel is based out of Jerusalem.Chris Troutman (talk) 15:59, 23 May 2013 (UTC)[reply]
  2. "Israelis," "Palestinians" and "most nations" do not hold unambiguous collective opinions as if they were borgs. Also, the Israeli government is not claiming J. as "its" capital, but as the capital of Israel. Skäpperöd (talk) 16:02, 23 May 2013 (UTC)[reply]

Draft six threaded discussion

Draft seven

^ view all drafts

Jerusalem is one of the oldest cities in the world, considered holy to the three major Abrahamic religions—Judaism, Christianity and Islam [...] Israelis and Palestinians both claim Jerusalem as their capital, as Israel maintains its primary governmental institutions there and the State of Palestine ultimately foresees it as its seat of power; however, neither claim is widely recognized internationally.

Please comment in the "support", "support with revisions", or "oppose" section below, giving a detailed rationale.

Support draft seven

  1. I think this is my favourite of the various drafts. Jerusalem was fought over long before the modern State of Israel was thought of, let alone the State of Palestine. The religious context explains a lot of the modern dispute and avoids WP:Recentism. (Equally I think that there are problems with Rome where the city being the core of an ancient imperial state and its role as the base of the largest branch of one of the major religions are more important than its being the capital of a medium-sized modern state.)--Peter cohen (talk) 13:58, 23 May 2013 (UTC)[reply]
  2. Second choice, almost a perfect draft, though I would like to see something on the city being in Israel and the Palestinian territories. nableezy - 14:22, 23 May 2013 (UTC)[reply]
  3. This is a very good draft that manages to both comply with policy and present the situation dispassionately in deep context. --Dailycare (talk) 14:58, 23 May 2013 (UTC)[reply]

Support draft seven with revisions

  1. I think this draft was the best of the original 7 as it begins to draw the discourse by setting the historical context adequately, but needs to provide political/international relations information as presented in other drafts above. I proposed a combination of these elements in Draft 8. --ColonelHenry (talk) 14:50, 23 May 2013 (UTC)[reply]

Oppose draft seven

  1. Oppose, as the shortcomings of this proposal outweigh its benefits. The additional information of draft eight is missing, and "Palestinians" and "State of Palestine" should be replaced with "Palestinian authorities," and "Israelis" with "Israel." We can neither proclaim some opinion/legal claim as being held by a whole non-borg people, nor should we imply that the "State of Palestine" is, atm, any more than a concept. Skäpperöd (talk) 15:57, 23 May 2013 (UTC)[reply]

Draft seven threaded discussion

Draft eight by ColonelHenry

^ view all drafts
I chose to combine the important elements from the 7 previous drafts to make one comprehensive stand-alone paragraph.--ColonelHenry (talk) 14:42, 23 May 2013 (UTC)[reply]

Jerusalem is one of the oldest cities in the world, considered holy to the three major Abrahamic religions—Judaism, Christianity and Islam. The status of Jerusalem has long been a point of contention throughout history and in recent years in the context of the ongoing Israeli-Palestinian conflict. Since the 1967 Six-Day War, Israel has occupied East Jerusalem and has included it within its capital city. Israelis and Palestinians both claim Jerusalem as their capital, as Israel maintains its primary governmental institutions there and the State of Palestine ultimately foresees it as its seat of power; however, neither claim is widely recognized internationally. Instead, the international community considers the status of Jerusalem a matter to be resolved with Palestinians, who also see the city as the capital of a future independent state of their own.

Please comment in the "support", "support with revisions", or "oppose" section below, giving a detailed rationale.

Support draft eight

  1. First choice, thanks for putting this together. Hits everything as far as I can tell. nableezy - 14:24, 23 May 2013 (UTC)[reply]
  2. First choice - I don't understand how anybody could say that their POV is not included here, which ultimately is what NPOV is all about. Smallbones(smalltalk) 15:34, 23 May 2013 (UTC)[reply]
  3. First choice; more than fair to everyone concerned. Chris Troutman (talk) 15:57, 23 May 2013 (UTC)[reply]

Support draft eight with revisions

  1. This is also a very good text, I'd leave out the "and has included it within its capital city" wording as Israel's claim that Jerusalem "is" its capital is universally rejected internationally. Otherwise, I'd be ready to support this. --Dailycare (talk) 15:01, 23 May 2013 (UTC)[reply]
  2. Support, but "Palestinians" and "State of Palestine" should be replaced with "Palestinian authorities," and "Israelis" with "Israel." We can neither proclaim some opinion/legal claim as being held by a whole non-borg people, nor should we imply that the "State of Palestine" is, atm, any more than a concept. Skäpperöd (talk) 15:46, 23 May 2013 (UTC)[reply]

Oppose draft eight

Draft eight threaded discussion

One thing I'd add, though this could go elsewhere in the lead, is that the city is split between Israel and the Palestinian territories by the Green Line. Yes I know many states dont recognize any part of Jerusalem being anything other than a corpus separatum, but in practice it is widely understood that west of the Green Line = Israel and east of the Green Line = Palestinian territories. nableezy - 15:52, 23 May 2013 (UTC)[reply]

Concerning Palestine, the State of Palestine has been recognized by more than 100 countries and has been admitted to the UN as a non-member state, so I'd call it more than just a theoretical concept. Israel hasn't been universally recognized either, yet we have no problems saying "Israel" here, instead of "Zionists". --Dailycare (talk) 16:01, 23 May 2013 (UTC)[reply]

Draft nine by InsertUsernameHere

^ view all drafts

If you wish to offer another draft, please place its text here. If it is very similar to another draft, please indicate that you support that draft with revisions, rather than offering a new draft here.

Please comment in the "support", "support with revisions", or "oppose" section below, giving a detailed rationale.

Support draft nine

Support draft nine with revisions

Oppose draft nine

Draft nine threaded discussion

General discussion

Aspects of drafts

I think all seven drafts are accurate and neutral. It comes down to what aspect (holiness, power, recent history) should be emphasized. Perhaps the last one, number seven, is the best initial sentence for the article because it provides the broadest context about what's going on with Jerusalem. Some of the other statements, or pieces of them, could be incorporated into the lede as well. This should not be so contentious. The situation is that both sides claim Jerusalem as their capital, and Wikipedia has no business deciding who's claim is superior. Jehochman Talk 12:29, 23 May 2013 (UTC)[reply]

Can we get a draft that unifies the key aspects of the other drafts. Each draft has great points but is inadequate stand-alone. A proposed paragraph that combines those points in a single statement would be much preferred, and far more comprehensive.--ColonelHenry (talk) 14:12, 23 May 2013 (UTC)[reply]

  • I took a few moments and combined several elements of the first seven drafts and propose Draft 8 (vide supra).--ColonelHenry (talk) 14:19, 23 May 2013 (UTC)[reply]
This came up in the prep for the RFC. The people that put together the drafts were focused on the capital issue and how it should be described. That is to say that content being lacking in a draft should not be read as saying that such content should not be included in the lead of the article. nableezy - 15:16, 23 May 2013 (UTC)[reply]
  • Thanks for providing some backstory. I agree on the content inclusion issue as well. It is a complex issue, and the more comprehensive we approach it in the view of concision, we can get as close to a clear, neutral and factual statement. Without content/context, a simple statement is inherently controversial.--ColonelHenry (talk) 15:37, 23 May 2013 (UTC)[reply]

Participation

Not sure whether this belongs here, but I created the item on Jerusalem on Wikidata, and added the description "city in Israel". It was immediately changed to "capital of Israel", and when I tried to make it more neutral I was harassed by a number of Israeli participants. A thread was open in Hebrew Wikipedia, where I was called "antisemitic" (if the Google translate gives it right) and some other unpleasant and ungrounded names. The participants of this thread subsequently came to Wikidata to accuse me in God knows what. I am not sure how harassment of participants of this discussion can be prevented, but for me it was certainly less then pleasant experience.--Ymblanter (talk) 12:52, 23 May 2013 (UTC)[reply]

Source Summary

There are numerous problems with the source summary section.

  • First, just before this RFC went live an editor decided he wanted to remove an extremely important point, then went on to make the usual I don't consent, therefore no consensus argument. The point was

No news agency with a guideline for neutral reporting allows Jerusalem to be reported as the capital of Israel.[1][2][3][4][5][6][7]

  • Second there are many problems with the "source summary" of "Many sources list Jerusalem as the capital of Israel when there is little room for nuance, but in prose, sources often use qualifiers which show that the status as capital was achieved unilaterally."
  • The problems are, "many sources" is actually only a single source so this violates WP:WEASEL. Second, there is no mention at all about the numerous sources which leave blank the capital of Israel when there is no room for nuance, meaning there is no balance and thus bias. Third the statment that "the status as capital was achieved" is from a POV held by less than 1% of the world and disagreed with by the other 99%, meaning it should never be stated as a fact like it has. Sepsis II (talk) 14:27, 23 May 2013 (UTC)[reply]
  1. ^ http://handbook.reuters.com/index.php?title=J#Jerusalem
  2. ^ http://handbook.reuters.com/index.php?title=T#Tel_Aviv
  3. ^ http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/in_depth/middle_east/israel_and_the_palestinians/key_documents/6044090.stm#jerusalem
  4. ^ http://www.guardian.co.uk/styleguide/j
  5. ^ http://electronicintifada.net/blogs/ali-abunimah/propaganda-or-news-associated-press-names-jerusalem-israeli-city
  6. ^ http://www.theblaze.com/stories/2012/11/16/ap-issues-correction-after-calling-jerusalem-isreals-capital/
  7. ^ http://v1.theglobeandmail.com/servlet/story/STYLEBOOK.20041110.style_1775/Stylebook/National/
Retrieved from "https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Wikipedia:Requests_for_comment/Jerusalem&oldid=556446832"