Wikipedia talk:Reliable sources

Transcript of a lecture hosted on a student organization's page

• Note: Moved to Wikipedia:Reliable sources/Noticeboard

No requirement that every media source be third-party

There is no requirement that every source be a third-party. It follows that not every media source (audio, video, etc.) needs to be third-party. Therefore this reversion is incorrect and my correction should be restored. TParis's edit summary "Reverted to revision 513531597 by Yaara dildaara: Large undiscussed changes to core content policy" is erroneous and cannot be sustained by any reasonable reading of the guideline. Jc3s5h (talk) 14:59, 26 September 2012 (UTC)

A concrete example of why the wording preferred by TParis is unworkable may be found at Buffy the Vampire Slayer (TV series). That article features a screen shot from the series right at the top of the article. The screen shot was, almost certainly, created by someone hired by the management of the TV series. Therefore it was not created by a third party. Therefore it must be removed, if TParis is correct. Jc3s5h (talk) 15:15, 26 September 2012 (UTC)

Sorry, I have to disagree with your example. Images follow specific policy lines, and that image is very probably questionable; it is definitely not allowed if it was created by the studio or station and they have not released rights to it. Please do not confuse images with content. KillerChihuahua^?!? 15:20, 26 September 2012 (UTC)

• Without commenting on the proposed edits in specific, I note that it is correct that primary, secondary and tertiary sources all have their place on Wikipedia, and the policy should not be worded to indicate that 3rd party sources (secondary and tertiary sources) are the only acceptable sources. However, third party sources are generally preferred, unless quoting or citing an organization policy, or simple verification of facts such as membership; and the policy should not be written to remove the preference for third party sources in most cases. KillerChihuahua^?!? 15:18, 26 September 2012 (UTC)

I concur. Primary, secondary and tertiary sources all have their place, depending on (a) what they are sourcing (b) how we say it. In general, I would suggest that obvious facts and attributable information are best verified with primary sources, and opinion, perceived truth (consensus) with secondary sources. What would be useful are general examples of when each type of source might be preferred. --Iantresman (talk) 16:11, 26 September 2012 (UTC)

This is already done at WP:PSTS, although I am sure there is room for improvement there. KillerChihuahua^?!? 16:29, 26 September 2012 (UTC)

• I suspect TParis's revert was more in response to a long edit war where major changes were being made without consensus. Notice that he reverted to a really old version from a week ago, before the edit war happened. I'm guessing that your change just got caught in the crossfire. (I personally don't see a problem with it.) ~Adjwilley (talk) 16:28, 26 September 2012 (UTC)

I think a couple of you need to go read WP:Party and person. PSTS and "third-party" have absolutely nothing to do with each other.

The long-standing version of the page is wrong. Jc3s5h's change is correct and should be restored.

The purpose of this paragraph is to explain that video and audio recordings can be "published" (and accessible) for Wikipedia's purposes even though they don't involve dead trees. What do we need for this to work? A non-ephemeral method of accessing the video or audio. So a television broadcast doesn't work, because we can't use time travel techniques to discover whether the TV show actually said what some editor said it did. But a television broadcast that is archived (e.g., on a website) is just fine, because we can go watch the archived video if there are disputes about the TV show's content.

The old version of the page says, "If Jay Leno makes a video, and puts a copy on his own website, then that's not 'published'. But if Jay Leno makes a video, and Pope Benedict puts a copy on his own website ("archived by a reputable third party"), then that's 'published' and is just fine".

What we actually want is "if Jay Leno makes a video, and puts a copy on any website (or on DVDs at any library, or whatever) that we can credibly believe will store an accurate copy of the video ("reputable"), even if it's Leno's own website (not a "third party"), then that's 'published' and is fine for the purposes of this part of the guideline." WhatamIdoing (talk) 16:32, 26 September 2012 (UTC)

Regarding your first para: Yeah, I got confuddled there, sorry. Support your edits to PSTS, btw.

Regarding the rest: So far as I can see, there has been unanimous support here for Jc3s5h's edit; it seems to me that the suggestion that TParis merely reverted to a previously stable version due to recent edits without noticing this specific edit has merit, and unless TParis corrects that assumption, I believe that is probably what happened. I see no reason Jc3s5h should not reinstate his desired edit. KillerChihuahua^?!? 17:06, 26 September 2012 (UTC)

Yes, I was reverting the other user. Didnt see this other edit.--v/r - TP 19:02, 26 September 2012 (UTC)

I support this as well. I saw the change occur but was waiting for a discussion to throw in my two cents worth. It was a rather minor change that corrected guideline to be in line with media guidelines and I actually thought it a little odd that it was there to begin with.--Amadscientist (talk) 04:20, 27 September 2012 (UTC)

Just an FYI and forgive me if this is not directly related (although I believe it is) with respect to image use policy (media as in photos, diagrams, maps etc) some original research is allowed and Wikipedia editors can and have uploaded their own work and not that of a third party, or even referenced to a third party, although with inormation one does require a secondary reference of some kind to base the work on. A photo of a politician by a Wikimedia contributer is original research at some level without any third party involvement.--Amadscientist (talk) 04:30, 27 September 2012 (UTC)

While I understand that this is refering to audio and video content...this still seems a little off in my opinion as Wikipedia editors may also upload original video and it may be used on Wikipedia. Media content is just that and seems to skip over image use policy in this regard or we would have to delete a whole lot of images and video. An origial image does not have to be uploaded to Wikimedia but should. We can still upload images to Wikipedia if we do not have an account on commons or don't wish to have one (although I do). Should this page reflect that? I don't know, maybe.--Amadscientist (talk) 04:38, 27 September 2012 (UTC)

For more information see Wikipedia:Creation and usage of media files.--Amadscientist (talk) 04:41, 27 September 2012 (UTC)

So, I guess the best way to explain this is that this page refers to using a media file AS a source. Since the single use of "third" is removed only once and then is followed by further clarification, yet says the same thing...I don't see how the change is really different except, perhaps to reduce redundant wording. (OK, I see it now, the archiving need not be a third party, the producing does.) I wonder if this is could use some further clarification along the lnes of "Not to be confused with Wikipedia image use policy that allows user uploaded images and media files. " or something along those lines.--Amadscientist (talk) 04:53, 27 September 2012 (UTC)

Additonal wording perhaps for clarification?

I wonder if this might be a little bit more clear:

The term "published" is most commonly associated with text materials, either in traditional printed format or online. Not to be confused with image and media use on Wikipedia itself. However, audio, video, and multimedia materials that have been recorded then broadcast, distributed, or archived by a reputable party may also meet the necessary criteria to be considered reliable sources. Like text sources, media sources must be produced by a reliable third party and be properly cited. Additionally, an archived copy of the media must exist. It is convenient, but by no means necessary, for the archived copy to be accessible via the Internet.

--Amadscientist (talk) 05:08, 27 September 2012 (UTC)

To be a little more clear on what I am saying, the guidelines here do not state that what constitutes an image that can be "referenced". For example this image [1] cannot be used as a reliable source for information on this structure. It can be used ON wikipedia as illustration of the subject (and is) but cannot be used to source anything. This similar image [2] can be used as a relaible source for information. The differences are that the first image is made by an amateur and given a free enough license for use on Commons. The second image cannot be uploaded to Wikipedia because a free image is available (although it might be possible to recieve OTRS permissions) but has been created by a credentialed expert in the field. So, this becomes important when describing in text what the image is without a secondary reliable sources being the basis. Now look at this image [3] it is based on a reliable secondary source and is made by a Wikipedian. It can have text referenced from it because it is based on the information from the secondary reliable source. Even in the image summary information must be sourced (and on the OWS article it is) so this becomes confusing to editors without some guideline being a bit more specific such as a section like this:

"Images/illustrations as a reliable source

Some images can be used as a reliable source if they have been created by known experts in their fields. Illustrations, diagrams, maps and other images being referenced for information must explicitly show or demonstrate the information without the need for intricate analysis or interpretations and must show the facts in an unambiguous manner. A pie chart that illustrates a percentage may be used to claim that percentage in text. A graph showing a specific rise or decline must specify this information in a plain and simple manner not open to multiple interpretations."

So this is just being tossed out there to see what others think.--Amadscientist (talk) 06:06, 27 September 2012 (UTC)

Your proposed text would prohibit all self-published sources that don't happen to be in text. The line that says "media sources must be produced by a reliable third party" means "If the Jay Leno talks about himself in a video on his own website, you may not use it."

Are you familiar with WP:PERTINENCE? WhatamIdoing (talk) 22:36, 4 October 2012 (UTC)

Yes I am. But many editors are not. Could you elaborate on how you feel the above prose "would prohibit all self-published sources that don't happen to be in text"? I am not seeing that.--Amadscientist (talk) 21:20, 10 October 2012 (UTC)

I thought that example would be clear, but I guess not.

• Jay Leno talks about himself on a video that he puts on his own website: This is a self-published, non-independent/non-third-party source.
• Your requirement: "media sources must be produced by a reliable third party" (This, BTW, is not at all "ike text", because ABOUTSELF and SPS contradict you).
• Is the hypothetical Leno video "produced by a reliable third party"? No, it's produced by Leno himself.
• Therefore, you have banned this kind of source. WhatamIdoing (talk) 23:15, 21 October 2012 (UTC)

search warrants

Wikipedia is an encyclopaedia, NOT a legal advice service
The following discussion has been closed. Please do not modify it.
The police came to my house on Sep 27 2012 Said they had a search warrant .no one at our residence is on probation or parole the officer's refused to show anyone in the home a search warrant nor explain what they were here for.They took my fiance to jail for receiving stolen property which its false accusation because they're talking about a GPS system his brother. Gave him 2 Identy theft. Charge for a paper that belongs to a friend of ours who's Willing to go to court and tell the judge and D.A the papers are hers.yet until this day Oct 11 we don't know exactly what the search warrant was for or if they even had one.my fiance still in jail with a bail of 145,000.if anyone can give me some advice or guidence on what to do and whre to go for help please. Feel free to answer my post. Thank you Desperately. In need of help M.L — Preceding unsigned comment added by 66.87.7.163 (talk) 19:23, 11 October 2012 (UTC)

Next time you assume the large media outlets are "reliable"...

Reliability isn't a given with a large media outlet. I've seen lots of times where Wikipedians slavishly add what a large media group says, regardless of tone, appropriateness, or logic. See http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EgGSuvsp2fE

We need to be honest and use discretion and common sense before bowing to a big brand name source as if it is incontrovertible or even useful.

Thanks. -- Avanu (talk) 12:36, 15 October 2012 (UTC)

Well... it depends on context. Material presented in news media outlets (whether TV, Radio or print) can be divided into three categories: News, Analysis, and Opinion. Each category can be reliable... but with limitations as to what it is reliable for. The clip you point us to is from an opinion program ... it is the visual equivalent of an OpEd column in a print newspaper. As such, it can be used as a reliable primary source for an attributed statement about the host's opinion, but not for a statement of unattributed fact. Blueboar (talk) 13:12, 15 October 2012 (UTC)

The YouTube link is not there to show something we should quote. It is there to show why 'big name media outlet' does not mean something is reliable. -- Avanu (talk) 20:31, 21 October 2012 (UTC)

Avanu, I don't think any experienced editor would argue that an opinion piece from Fox news is a reliable source. Someguy1221 (talk) 21:44, 21 October 2012 (UTC)

Well... I might. Again, we have to ask: "A reliable source for what?"... "what specific statement in Wikipedia are we trying to support with the opinion piece". Context is important. If a highly respected political columnist like Charles Krauthammer gives an opinion, we should not ignore it simply because he said it on Fox. And if we are going to discuss Krauthammer's opinion in an article, we need to cite where he stated that opinion. If he stated it on Fox news, then Fox news is a reliable source for what he said. Blueboar (talk) 22:18, 21 October 2012 (UTC)

Yeah, that goes without saying. Someguy1221 (talk) 00:51, 22 October 2012 (UTC)

I guess you are simply not watching the video then. The video tells the story about why we need to question sources, even if they are big names in news. It seems as if you think the video is to be used a source itself. I was merely pointing to that video as a supporting statement for what I said originally. -- Avanu (talk) 23:21, 21 October 2012 (UTC)

OK, I'll say something else then that is equally true: No experienced editor would should ever think a source is automatically reliable because of who published it. It's stated right in the guideline anyway: "Whether a specific news story is reliable for a specific fact or statement in a Wikipedia article will be assessed on a case-by-case basis." Someguy1221 (talk) 00:51, 22 October 2012 (UTC)

George Katt reliable sources

www.georgekatt.com http://www.imdb.com/name/nm0441085/ — Preceding unsigned comment added by Gkatt (talk • contribs) 18:14, 6 November 2012 (UTC)

It's no use putting this here, try arguing your case at Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/George Katt.--ukexpat (talk) 18:16, 6 November 2012 (UTC)

That's correct. This is the wrong forum. ~Adjwilley (talk) 18:17, 6 November 2012 (UTC)

help!!!!

hi guys am a local volunteer for a local community radio station, im trying to add a bio and page to wikipedia. Seems stuck at conflict of interest as im writing about myself. Is there any help you could give me it would be gratefully appreciated.

17:16, 7 November 2012 (UTC)17:16, 7 November 2012 (UTC)~~ — Preceding unsigned comment added by Parkinaw (talk • contribs)

Wikipedia advises that "You should not create or edit articles about yourself", see WP:COI --Iantresman (talk) 22:58, 7 November 2012 (UTC)

You can always contribute to Wikipedia as a regular editor, and create your own custom user page. --Iantresman (talk) 23:18, 7 November 2012 (UTC)

Academic textbook assessment as a reliable source

An editor wishes to use a textbook republished this year by academic publisher Springer, as a source. They've mentioned that the book is also cited in various peer-reviewed papers (including ones this year), and is cited by some academic text books. But if I think the source is actually unreliable, what reasoning could I provide that might outweigh all the published sources? Should I have to provide any published sources supporting my opinion. --Iantresman (talk) 23:31, 7 November 2012 (UTC)

Start with explaining why you actually think it's unreliable, rather than finding some other reasoning. Other sources that contradict it or shed light on its level of acceptance would definitely help. Itsmejudith (talk) 00:06, 8 November 2012 (UTC)

If there are no better-quality sources that disagree with it, then we don't have any reason to believe that the source is actually unreliable. WhatamIdoing (talk) 00:37, 8 November 2012 (UTC)

The book is clearly fringe. How could I show that? --Iantresman (talk) 01:28, 8 November 2012 (UTC)

Raise on RSN. Say you think it may be fringe and why you think that, and see if other people agree. People might not agree with you but no-one will mind engaging in a civil discussion. Why would Springer publish a fringe book? Could this relate to disciplinary boundaries? Itsmejudith (talk) 01:34, 8 November 2012 (UTC)

When bringing a request like this it is helpful to name the particular article or source that is of concern. Perhaps this is the matter in question. But it cannot be, because in that instance Iantresman is trying to use a source that others are claiming is fringe. Conversely, in this thread Iantresman implies that someone else ("they've mentioned...") is trying to use a source that he thinks is fringe. Surely an editor that is fresh off a years-long topic ban would not immediately dive back into the area of the ban with an attempt to deceive others about his motivations, so I must be confused. Iantresman, could you point us to the discussion in question, in order to allay my confusion? Thanks. Short Brigade Harvester Boris (talk) 02:05, 8 November 2012 (UTC)

Also, "fringe" isn't a synonym for "unreliable". The Time Cube website is pure nonsense, but still a reliable source for some statements. Almost any textbook is going to be reliable for at least limited statements (like "Fringe Freddy wrote in his textbook that..." or "According to proponents of This Nonsense..."). WhatamIdoing (talk) 02:09, 8 November 2012 (UTC)

@WhatamIdoing. I agree. Iantresman (talk) 10:50, 8 November 2012 (UTC)

@Short Brigade. I didn't mention a specific book or thread, because I wanted to try and learn some general principles, rather than need to ask about a specific book each time. The thread you mentioned is in indeed the one that inspired my general question (a hypothetical example), as I may be the one who considers a source to be fringe at some other time. It should not matter which side of the fence I present, and I would be very surprised if it did. My motivation remains the same. To find an impartial way to assess a source, without having to rely on the opinion of fallible editors (including myself). Iantresman (talk) 10:50, 8 November 2012 (UTC)

@Itsmejudith thanks for your input, I think that the Reliable sources/Noticeboard (WP:RSN) may be the way to go. Iantresman (talk) 10:54, 8 November 2012 (UTC)

Iantresman is trying role reversal here for reasons unknown, he is the one who is trying to push a fringe source into Talk:Dusty_plasma#Reference_restoration. The source is one advocating plasma cosmology. I really don't understand his comments here, IRWolfie- (talk) 16:40, 8 November 2012 (UTC)