Wikipedia talk:WikiProject UK Railways

Quintinshill

I am pleased to see that someone has agreed with me as regards Hugh Urquhart.

There are no records of him in the newspaper reports at the time and a search through other railway archives fails to confirm that he was ever employed by the G&SWR.

Is this a mischevious posting?

What is the procedure for taking unverified statements down?

GC Jack GC Jack 16:11, 4 January 2012 (UTC) — Preceding unsigned comment added by GC Jack (talk • contribs)

We just edit it out. I'm going to give it to the weekend and if there's nothing postive then out it comes. I suspect the additions were originally made by someone doing geneolocial research into the Urquhart family and making 2+2=5. NtheP (talk) 17:39, 4 January 2012 (UTC)

The preferred action upon encountering unverified statements is to find a reference that supports the statement, per WP:V, and add the reference to the appropriate place in the article (WP:CITE). If you can't find anything (and from the above it appears that you have tried and failed), you have two choices: either remove the statement, or leave it in place, adding a {{citation needed|date=May 2024}} immediately afterwards, like this. Note that the last option should not be used on contentious unverified statements concerning living people, see WP:BLP, but Urquhart is unlikely to be still alive, 97 years on. You could also look through the page history to determine who added the statement, and drop a note on their user talk page asking what their source was. --Redrose64 (talk) 19:01, 4 January 2012 (UTC)

This is too big to leave with a {{citation needed}} on it. There's not much doubt that Urquhart was a senior member of staff on the GSWR or at least that section in LMS days as he's in the surviving LMS pay books as someone who was a high earner, but we are talking here about alleged statements made during the inquiry he made about the cause of one of the worst accidents on a British railway and also how he subsequently got the time served in prison by one of the guilty signalmen reduced. I've looked at a number of sources both on and off line and nothing supports these statements. As I mentioned in my first posting the only person to question the late running of the trains as a factor is Nock and he makes no suggestion that the thought was owed to Urquhart. Col Druitt's report doesn't even mention Urquhart giving evidence so unless he was called at the coroner's inquest (again something I can't disprove or more importantly from a WP perspective) prove then it's very dubious hearsay. I've also established which editor made the edition but they don't appear to have edited since last September so I don't hold much hope out of getting anything there. From the pattern of edits by this editor thye were mostly about various members of the Urquhart family hence my geneological comment - perhaps family folklore ("Uncle Hugh was a main witness at the inquiry")? I am proposing though to put the "offending" text onto the talk page so that it can still be seen which is better than it being totally invisible. NtheP (talk) 19:16, 4 January 2012 (UTC)

I wouldn't trust Nock that much; just spent a couple of hours trying to figure out an assertion he made, only to realise that it was not only mechanically impossible, but also contradicated by two photos on the same page. Ning-ning (talk) 19:21, 4 January 2012 (UTC)

I wasn't intending to :-) NtheP (talk) 19:22, 4 January 2012 (UTC)

I have the Coroner's Court details. No mention of Urquhart. Thanks for the detail on his position on the LMS I will let the G&SWR Assn know he existed! Whether he helped in the early release is pure conjecture in my opinion and cannot be verified. I also agree that Nock is not a good source. I have been researching this and other accidents and there are many myths about Quintinshill it will be good to see this one laid to rest. GC Jack 15:45, 5 January 2012 (UTC)

Just a PS. There was a lot of disquite in the industry generally - especially in the Unions about the prison sentences. I wonder if Urquhart was part of that and perhaps exaggerated his involvement later in life. There were some press comments about the extra traffic and in the B.o.T report it states that it was up by 40% GC Jack 11:56, 6 January 2012 (UTC) — Preceding unsigned comment added by GC Jack (talk • contribs)

Thanks for taking the Uqurhart section out. GC Jack 14:41, 7 January 2012 (UTC) — Preceding unsigned comment added by GC Jack (talk • contribs)

Reference needed

Has anyone got a copy of JAB Hamilton's Disaster down the Line (also published as British Railway Accidents of the 20th Century)? There's a mention of the Royal Scots survivors of the disaster being mistaken for POWs and being pelted by the crowd but I can't find it online and need a page reference and a bit more detail of this incident. NtheP (talk) 20:46, 21 January 2012 (UTC)

Train operating company

This article was seriously out of date. I have made a start on updating it but help would be welcome. Also, if anyone has some extra spare time, it lacks references. -- Alarics (talk) 08:25, 19 January 2012 (UTC)

Hi, certainly seems to be I also think it might be in need of some tidying up, as alot of the information here is repeated elsewhere are you looking for help in certain areas or just looking for advice? LongRobin79(talk) 20:09, 7 February 2012 (UTC)

Extended content

Would Add/Point Out list of suggestions for improvement of the page. Summary: Is the term TOC exclusive to the UK? - By which I mean should this page say TOC -Train Operating Company for UK TOC's See for French TOC's see ect. Expansion of the term Majority Franchise Better list of who is responsible for franchises Organisation Railway Network Set-up either cleaned up or made simpler to understand The list of which Government/Department is responsible for each franchise Is the list of TOC parent companies needed? Changes Could this be shortened? its very long and I would presume the information about these companies/franchises is held elsewhere Confirm the current list of TOC's and provide a source? Future TOC's - I don't believe that TOC's for re-let belong under this heading, maybe a TOC renewal header further down? Confirmation the "GO" is a TOC and not a travel/booking agent I don't believe the Sea Links Section has any relevance? Again is Dutchflyer a TOC? Should the Orient Express come under the railtours section? LongRobin79(talk) 21:46, 7 February 2012 (UTC)

I've hidden the last post, because it duplicates a post on Talk:Train operating company, which is really the proper place for that. See also WP:MULTI. --Redrose64 (talk) 22:12, 7 February 2012 (UTC)

Another line name needed

What is the line between Chester and Crewe called? I tried on the ELineRef website but couldn't find it. Is it just WCML, or does it have its own name? -mattbuck (Talk) 19:25, 22 January 2012 (UTC)

ELR is CNH (Crewe North-Holyhead). Traditional line description in Quail (vol 4 map 35C) is "Crewe and Chester Line". --Redrose64 (talk) 20:14, 22 January 2012 (UTC)

So if we believe the ELR, that would imply the North Wales Coast Line extends to Crewe instead of to Chester, alternatively we need a new article Crewe and Chester Line. -mattbuck (Talk) 20:26, 22 January 2012 (UTC)

Well the Engineers' Line Reference is really just their own system for them to be able to locate structures - eg, you'll probably find a bridge/tunnel/crossing somewhere with CNH-14 written on it. It doesn't relate to the formal name of the line. Quail is more likely to have it right because they derive their information from the NR Sectional Appendix, but unfortunately I can't confirm this as it's not my area and I don't have a Sectional Appendix for the route. I would expect Crewe & Chester Line is most likely to be correct. Fu Manchuchu (talk) 20:57, 22 January 2012 (UTC)

Thanks for the explanation. -mattbuck (Talk) 21:07, 22 January 2012 (UTC)

According to route guides on Network Rail, the line is called the Crewe to Chester Line. Simply south...... having large explosions for 5 years 21:32, 26 January 2012 (UTC)

So what does NR say about the North Wales Coast Line? -mattbuck (Talk) 17:02, 28 January 2012 (UTC)

That's actually a good point. According to Network Rail RUS, the whole line between Crewe and Holyhead is all the same line. It is called the North Wales Main Line. Maybe merge the two. Simply south...... having large explosions for 5 years 21:10, 2 February 2012 (UTC)

Now gone to move stage. See Talk:North Wales Coast Line. Simply south...... having large explosions for 5 years 22:27, 7 February 2012 (UTC)

Scotland's Railways saltire

Just a quick question, what is the proper name of the new ScotRail saltire livery? I've seen it alternately called "Saltire", "Scotland's Railways" or a few variations on these. -mattbuck (Talk) 19:41, 22 January 2012 (UTC)

I've dropped a note at WT:TIS#New ScotRail livery. --Redrose64 (talk) 20:17, 22 January 2012 (UTC)

The First ScotRail article states that 'the services will rebranded ... and will be marketed as "ScotRail: Scotland's Railway".' The citation from The Scotsman of 2008-09-23 doesn't seem to fully support that, but it does describe the livery as the "Saltire look".

However, First themselves seem to call it "unified ScotRail livery" - see their press releases Geof Sheppard (talk) 14:18, 23 January 2012 (UTC)

Well ScotRail livery I currently define as the old ScotRail white/green/blue one. Guess we could go with Unified ScotRail but it seems a bit odd. -mattbuck (Talk) 02:58, 26 January 2012 (UTC)

While we're at it, is there an official name for the "Barbie" livery? I can't imagine that's what FirstGroup called it. Geof Sheppard (talk) 13:42, 27 January 2012 (UTC)

Hm, my 2010 DMU list says "ScotRail - Scotland's Railways". I think the "Barbie" thing was a bit of a fudge, as according to the same book that's just "First Group", but it's commonly known as "Barbie", and that seemed a sensible way to distinguish it from the many other FG liveries. -mattbuck (Talk) 14:07, 27 January 2012 (UTC)

There have been several variants of the indigo/pink/white livery. This one with the swirly stripes was officially named "Dynamic Lines". --Redrose64 (talk) 16:11, 28 January 2012 (UTC)

No argument on that one. So, to go back to the actual topic, Scotland's Railways, Saltire or what? -mattbuck (Talk) 16:54, 28 January 2012 (UTC)

Believe it or not, First's bus divisions actually use Barbie in some semi-official publications [1]. For the new Scottish colour scheme I would personally favour Scotland's Railways, which seems to be the name used by the majority of railway industry publications, but Saltire would be fine if that's in more common usage. I don't like "unified Scotrail" since that seems to be a one-off invention by the current franchisee and could cause confusion with the previous ScotRail liveries. Alzarian16 (talk) 16:06, 30 January 2012 (UTC)

If you are talking about common use as per reliable sources "Saltire livery" is it eg or any other news report.

You may find this interesting http://www.transportscotland.gov.uk/files/ScotRailGuidelines_Livery.pdf

It seems clear that TfS hasn't given it a name - they refer to the "ScotRail" identity, eg - TfS is pushing the brand name "ScotRail" (as per "British Rail") eg - they use the terms "Scotrail livery" and "Saltire livery" informally - there's no evidence for the livery itself having been given an official name of its own by TfS. I didn't find any reliable sources (eg papers, news) using "Scotland's Railways livery" - though the term "Scotland's Railways" is in common use as an alternative to "ScotRail"

It's worth noting that if you use "saltire livery" you avoid any confusion that can arise from the term "scotrail livery" - but there has been no official dictat requiring the people of scotland to adopt the use of a name.Mddkpp (talk) 00:25, 2 February 2012 (UTC)

You might find http://msssa2009.creativebrief.com/cb/star-awards-09/design-excellence/redpath/scotrail.pdf interesting - it explains that "Scotland's Railways" is a 'tag link' or 'motto' to the brand 'Scotrail', and goes into detail on the new branding - however it doesn't give the livery a name.

Inventors of the branding scheme were Redpath Design Limited if you want to start sending off emails.Mddkpp (talk) 00:48, 2 February 2012 (UTC)

This is what Commons currently has for "ScotRail livery". -mattbuck (Talk) 12:59, 13 February 2012 (UTC)

I emailed Redpath Design Limited who responded saying they do not know it the livery has a specific name, but that they referred to it as "ScotRail Livery" they suggest contacting either Transport Scotland or First Group, given they have no specific name for the livery it might be just as well referring to the livery as "ScotRail Livery". LongRobin79(talk) 12:44, 13 February 2012 (UTC)

I wouldn't want to change the Saltire images to ScotRail, because then we'd need to change the existing ScotRail ones too, but to what? Mind you, I don't think we've categorised any pictures of the pre-privatisation ScotRail livery yet, so what are we going to call that?

Wasn't that just as BR but with the name changed? -mattbuck (Talk) 14:17, 13 February 2012 (UTC)

Why not call the "Saltaire" livery the "Saltaire livery" and then the problem doesn't exist? Mddkpp (talk) 15:52, 13 February 2012 (UTC)

I think West Yorkshire Metro might be upset by the usurption of one of their placenames :-) But seriously I don't think it's our place to name a livery until Scotrail do themselves. If that means we have to use the more clumsy "livery carried by Scotrail trains" then so be it. NtheP (talk) 17:00, 13 February 2012 (UTC)

I think that we just go with what makes sense. Preferably go with an official name (eg Dynamic Lines), but if that fails, go with what's sensible. Eg this train has an advert for the Birmingham Bullring, let's go with Birmingham Bullring livery. -mattbuck (Talk) 17:15, 13 February 2012 (UTC)

I'm sure it's ok (and right) to use "Saltire" - its not as if we made it up yesterday. As noted abve The Scotsman uses it, as do a variety of news sources eg BBC, newspapers etc. - I'd put it in single quotes or something like that..Mddkpp (talk) 17:20, 13 February 2012 (UTC)

@Mddkpp: please note spelling, Saltire, not Saltaire.

@Mattbuck: the pre-privatisation ScotRail livery was like the InterCity livery, but with a blue stripe instead of red, see File:47702 Scotrail livery.jpg and File:Railway Station, Reading - geograph.org.uk - 663893.jpg. It's sometimes mistaken for the Regional Railways livery of the period, but notice that the ScotRail livery has dark grey where RR has dark blue. --Redrose64 (talk) 18:19, 13 February 2012 (UTC)

That's my thoughts too, but don't we call the InterCity livery "InterCity Sector livery"? ScotRail was its own sector...

Back to Matt's original point. Whatever the answer is, the Saltire livery is not a ScotRail livery, it's a First ScotRail livery. (Sorry if that sounds like an advert for food from a well known retailer!). Geof Sheppard (talk) 13:46, 14 February 2012 (UTC)

I'm sorry Geof but when reading this link Link it says in the "Background And Brief" section the idea of the design is to re brand ScotRail in line with the Scottish superbrands idea. and not change it wever time an operator changes. To this end Page 10 Rolling Stock - Livery suggests that the livery will not change if the operator does only the operator's logo will change. This suggests to me that FirstGroup and future operator will have no say in the livery of the ScotRail brand. Looking at other FirstGroup Liveries the current ScotRail one is probably not one that FirstGroup would have chose, however I did notice the other day that on train staff do wear the current FirstGroup Uniforms at the end of the above link the then transport minister Stewart Stevenson refers to the livery as the "unified ScotRail livery". There is certainly no clear evidence that the livery has any other name. LongRobin79(talk) 14:17, 14 February 2012 (UTC)

That's a very intersting document. It states quite clealry that the intention is to retain the name ScotRail beyond future franchise changes. So if we now call the 'Saltire' livery 'ScotRail' we will need to find a new name for the pre-First Group ScotRail livery.

An aside: I noticed a page that says the X shape of the logo was influenced by BR's double arrow! Geof Sheppard (talk) 13:45, 16 February 2012 (UTC)

RAIL magazine seems to have generally been using "Scotland's Railways", although I did notice a "Scotland Railway's" in the last issue. -mattbuck (Talk) 10:33, 17 February 2012 (UTC)

The return of the Identify that Mk1 EMU Game

What class EMU is the one on the left?

Hi everyone, it's time for another round of identify that Mk1 EMU since mattbuck can't tell the difference. See the pictures and identify. -mattbuck (Talk) 03:00, 26 January 2012 (UTC)

It looks like a 4EPB in the bottom photo. Mjroots (talk) 09:43, 26 January 2012 (UTC)

Top one looks like a Connexy CIG. (My little aide-memoire for those 4 series coastal stock is..VEP=VERY many doors/CEP=few doors + Hopper upper small windows/CIG=few doors and sliding upper small window) Fu Manchuchu (talk) 13:25, 26 January 2012 (UTC)

(edit conflict) Yes, left-hand EMU in lower picture is a Class 415 4-EPB, but of SR design not BR Mark 1. The giveaway for that is the presence of oval toplights above every door droplight, which are never found on BR Mark 1 doors (there are many other differences between the SR and BR designs, such as underframe trussing, body profile, rainstrip position, etc.).

Top picture is definitely BR Mark 1, more specifically either a Class 421 4-CIG or Class 422 4-BIG. --Redrose64 (talk) 13:28, 26 January 2012 (UTC)

@Fu: your aide-memoire is correct for later years; but the 4-CEP/4-BEP were refurbished in the early 1980s, prior to which their windows were the standard Mark 1 type with sliding vents. But you won't see a sliding-vent 4-CEP in Connex livery, that's for sure. --Redrose64 (talk) 13:34, 26 January 2012 (UTC)

I'll go for a 421 of CSC, seems reasonable. Thanks. -mattbuck (Talk) 17:30, 26 January 2012 (UTC)

Name that station

Any ideas? I believe it's Sheffield but would appreciate confirmation. Lamberhurst (talk) 22:18, 31 January 2012 (UTC)

The caption on it's use at Regional Railways says it's Lincoln. Can't confirm that but I am pretty sure it's not Sheffield. NtheP (talk) 22:39, 31 January 2012 (UTC)

Looks like Lincoln Central to me (and I reached that conclusion before I saw the above). I recognise the platform, but you can see the reflection of the last three letters ("oln") of the sign in the cab window. The train's sign appears to end in "oln" as well, and compare the sign to File:Lincoln Central sign.jpg (Sheffield's is very different). HJ Mitchell | Penny for your thoughts? 22:45, 31 January 2012 (UTC)

Are you sure? The platform has a prominent "7" sign, but Lincoln Central only has platforms numbered 1 to 5... Alzarian16 (talk) 23:04, 31 January 2012 (UTC)

The platforms were renumbered in 2008. It's definitely Lincoln.–Signalhead ^< T > 23:12, 31 January 2012 (UTC)

Yes, see Quail vol. 2, map 27A: plats are 3 & 4 up bays on north side, 5 up main, 6a/6b down main, 7 down loop at south side. --Redrose64 (talk) 23:53, 31 January 2012 (UTC)

As with HJ, I recognised Lincoln before reading anything (high five). -mattbuck (Talk) 00:08, 1 February 2012 (UTC)

Concur, Lincoln Central. See Google Streetview (from level crossing) for approximately the same image: [2] —Sladen (talk) 00:36, 1 February 2012 (UTC)

Great work guys. I had ruled out Lincoln on the basis of the "7th" platform. Lamberhurst (talk) 08:25, 1 February 2012 (UTC)

Another confused line name

The Glasgow South Western Line appears to cover both the old Glasgow and South Western Railway main line from Glasgow through Kilmarnock to Gretna, and the line from Kilmarnock to Stranraer. This doen'st feel like a good solution for categorising Wikipedia Commons, so is there another name for the Starnraer branch? Of course, things are even more confused by it running over the Ayrshire Coast Line between Troon and Ayr! Geof Sheppard (talk) 13:50, 2 February 2012 (UTC)

...and some trains to Stranraer run on the Ayrshire Coast Line between Glasgow Central and Troon via Paisley. --Stewart ^{(talk | edits)} 15:21, 2 February 2012 (UTC)

.....This article seems to suggest to me that at one time the line may have been called "The Portpatrick Railway" - LongRobin79(talk) 21:18, 10 February 2012 (UTC)

Only part of it was the Portpatrick Railway - the section between Challoch Junction and Stranraer, something like 7+1⁄4 miles. See RCH Junction Diagram 88, lower left. --Redrose64 (talk) 21:45, 10 February 2012 (UTC)

With a really great bit of timing, I read in Modern Railways that there is a "friends" group named for the Stranraer and Ayr Line. It kind of does what it says on the tin! Geof Sheppard (talk) 13:58, 13 February 2012 (UTC)

Michael Schabas‎

There is an AFD on Michael Schabas. He was an owner of GB Railways among other things. I want to say he is notable. However, I couldn't find a references that had anything about him beyond a couple of sentences, so I said delete. Hoping someone here could find/know something about him. Bgwhite (talk) 09:52, 5 February 2012 (UTC)

Aside whats here I seriously doubt there is anything notable about him. LongRobin79(talk) 21:06, 10 February 2012 (UTC)

Please express your concerns on Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Michael Schabas, not here. Comments made here will not be taken into account when that AFD closes. --Redrose64 (talk) 21:38, 10 February 2012 (UTC)

The discussion has been relisted, so please cast your votes again there. Lamberhurst (talk) 17:09, 13 February 2012 (UTC)

NaPTAN refs in Infobox GB station

You are invited to join the discussion at Template talk:Infobox GB station#NaPTAN refs. --Redrose64 (talk) 15:48, 6 February 2012 (UTC)

Bluebell line photos

What Bluebell station is this?

Can anybody identify where this luggage picture was taken? I thought it would be nice if at least one picture showed how they are attempting to create a historical setting. Cloveapple (talk) 06:05, 12 February 2012 (UTC)

Horsted Keynes. See black oval plaque upper right. --Redrose64 (talk) 11:06, 12 February 2012 (UTC)

I agree that it's HK. Platform 5 to be exact. Mjroots (talk) 09:48, 13 February 2012 (UTC)

Thank you both. Cloveapple (talk) 18:25, 13 February 2012 (UTC)

Blaenau Ffestiniog photo identification

I've found this photo on Flickr - definitely pd, so can be uploaded to Commons. Can anyone help identify more precisely which line it's on - the Ffestiniog Railway, the Festiniog and Blaenau Railway (before it was regauged to standard gauge), or one of the various quarry tramways?  An optimist on the run! 07:43, 14 February 2012 (UTC)

It is the old F&B at the old Manod Viaduct, which was rebuilt as a stone viaduct when the line from Bala came into the town, converting it to standard guage. --Stewart ^{(talk | edits)} 08:20, 14 February 2012 (UTC)

Thanks - now uploaded.  An optimist on the run! 09:02, 14 February 2012 (UTC)

Dubious changes to station articles

Hi guys, could somebody give me a sanity check? JakeNeill1, currently blocked, has made a lot of dubious edits to facts and figures on station articles, such as big swings in passenger numbers and an unsourced claim that Glasgow Central is busier than Birmingham News Street. They give the impression of being made up, or being an opinion on the importance of one station versus another, but I'd appreciate if somebody familiar with these stats could have a look. Thanks, HJ Mitchell | Penny for your thoughts? 22:27, 20 February 2012 (UTC)

All edits have been reverted, btw. --Tagishsimon (talk) 22:40, 20 February 2012 (UTC)

Penydarren/Coalbrookdale loco on main page

1803 loco?

I've raised a comment on Wikipedia:Main Page/Errors that today's OTD hook appears to be incorrect. The photo (right) shows the replica of the Coalbrookdale locomotive at Telford Central; as I understand it, the original may or may not have been built. Certainly it isn't a replica of the 1804 Penydarren loco the hook refers to. Could someone who knows more about the early history of these locos confirm this please?  An optimist on the run! 12:58, 21 February 2012 (UTC)

Yes, you're right, but WP is infamously unreliable for anything about Trevithick.

Almost nothing is known about any of these locos - except that this replica is sourceably (and not just by reading the captions) more like the Coalbrookdale and sourceably unlike the Penydarren. Of course Coalbrookdale also preceded Penydarren. We used to have more content, even a category, on Trevithick but it was deleted to make more space for rappers and arguments as to whether he was Cornish or not. Andy Dingley (talk) 13:05, 21 February 2012 (UTC)