Talk:2012 Chevrolet Detroit Belle Isle Grand Prix

The recent article expansion

Why such a radical departure of the article table layouts and stylings from the standard layout that has been in force for several years, particular without notice at WP:AOWR? TheChrisD ^{Rants•Edits} 10:44, 2 July 2012 (UTC)

I disagree that there is a "radical departure" at all. I appreciate there were a few major visual changes, but these were primarily necessitated by the Manual of Style. For example, I would guess the two major changes were the removal of the flags from the tables; MOS:FLAG suggests that flags should "not emphasize nationality without good reason". The drivers are not representing their countries in IndyCar, so the inclusion of a flag seems to me to be no more necessary than a symbol next to the female drivers to indicate that they are female! MOS:FLAG also states that the country name should be included along with the flag; for example, how many people can differentiate the New Zealand and Australian flags at that size for Scott Dixon and Will Power? Additionally, I have removed the car colours from the "Number" box: this was inline with WP:COLOR: numerous of the colour combinations would mean that partially blind or colour blind people would be unable to read the numbers because of the low level of contrast between the text colour and the background colour. If you look, these changes are inline with the tables in the NASCAR races.

With regards to the sortability, that simply seemed preferable: after all, why have a non-sortable table when you have a sortable one? The qualifying table I did make some additions to, purely to include more information, I don't see this as a major issue. I did visit WP:AOWR, and looked at a number of the IndyCar race pages before I started my expansion, but given that there are no articles of Good or Featured quality within IndyCar (that I could readily find) I primarily based the article format from NASCAR and Formula 1 articles that were Good or Featured quality. I am of course happy to discuss any of the changes at WT:AOWR, and similarly I will probably bring up the use of flags in infoboxes there, as this is something that MOS:FLAG is very particular about. Feel free to raise any issues you have with the changes here, on my talk page or at WT:AOWR, which I am now watching. Regards, Harrias ^talk 13:02, 2 July 2012 (UTC)

I admit my original definition was probably too extreme. The largely increased widening of the tables caused by the sorting arrows had a larger impression than the other changes.

With regards to your point on flags, generally they are used as the series' drivers come from many parts of the world, similar to Formula One. The lack of flags on NASCAR articles is that 98% of the drivers are American, and the few drivers that are not American (JPM, Ambrose, Villeneuve, Papis etc.) are well-known enough to not require a flag. It's like comparing apples to oranges, whereas F1 vs. IndyCar would be Granny Smith vs... something you grow in your backyard.

Car colours, I have no arguments. They were removed from these articles in 2011, but other editors re-added them this year. I just edit based on current consensus, indifferent either way.

The sortability debate is probably something best at WT:MOTOR as it's something that can be defined for all motorsport articles. My viewpoint is that the tables don't require sortability in other columns (bar perhaps Q1/Q2 qualifying times, as seen in 1994 San Marino Grand Prix, an F1 FA), as they are (generally) already sorted by the most important factor - finishing position. The closest thing AOWR has to a GA would probably be 2011 IZOD IndyCar World Championship, owing to the significance of the event and the fatal crash of Dan Wheldon. TheChrisD ^{Rants•Edits} 19:36, 2 July 2012 (UTC)

And I'll admit, I've probably got a bit too defensive about my own work, I'm sure you know what it can be like, sometimes any comment or question seems like a criticism! Regarding the flags, I can concede that I must have missed the presence of them in F1 articles! I still think that the country name should probably be listed, either in the table, or in a key: if for nothing other than the New Zealand / Australia disambiguation. But I certainly wouldn't be adverse to putting them back in some way. Like you say, a proper discussion is probably in order at either WT:MOTOR or WT:AOWR, or both, about various issues. I'm quite busy over the next week, so feel free to kick it off yourself if you like and just ping me a message on my talk page to let me know, otherwise I'll set the ball rolling when I've got a bit more free time. Regards, Harrias ^talk 20:25, 3 July 2012 (UTC)

Red tires?

I don't follow car racing, but I looked at this article when it was linked from the main page. In the second paragraph is a reference to "red tires". This term is not used in the rest of the article and doesn't seem to be mentioned in the article on tires. This makes me wonder if it's just a term that Wikipedia doesn't cover (and maybe should, somewhere), or if it's some sort of typo (or vandalism) that should be fixed.

--142.205.241.254 (talk) 00:45, 12 July 2012 (UTC)

Thanks for noting this: I've added the fact that the softer tires were red into the body of the article too, but I'll try and find a source so that I can provide an explanatory note about this. Harrias ^talk 06:26, 12 July 2012 (UTC)

GA Review

This review is transcluded from Talk:2012 Chevrolet Detroit Belle Isle Grand Prix/GA1. The edit link for this section can be used to add comments to the review.

Reviewer: NapHit (talk · contribs) 19:56, 13 September 2012 (UTC)

Lead

• "There were four cautions, totalling 12 laps during the race." Is there a wikilink for cautions? I'm a big fan of F1 and motogp, admittedly I don't watch much US based racing, but I've never come across cautions before. A wikilink or clarification would be great.
• "It was Dixon's first win of the season and the 28th of his career, and moved him up to second in the drivers' standings." I think which would be better instead of the second use of and
• You have "72.0651 seconds" in the lead and "1:12.0651" in the info box. Personally I prefer the latter, either way you should be consistent.

Background

• "when Justin Wilson won the race after taking the lead in the last twenty laps..." you had 19 in digits in the lead, so i would be inclined to change this to digits as well for consistency
• "Over 600,000 square feet on concrete..." on should be of and I would use Template:Convert to provide a square metre number as well for those readers unfamiliar with imperial measurements
• "The track was the same configuration as used in 2007 and 2008 that is 2.07 miles (3.33 km) long." this reads uneasily, perhaps The configuration was the 2.07 miles (3.33 km) long track used in 2007 and 2008?

Practice and qualifying

• "Dixon set the fastest time; 70.316 seconds..." again this differs from the method used in the classification section below, would make this consistent with that section
• "Barrichello was also given a ten-place penalty..." can't see Barrichello being mentioned previously so he should be linked

Race

• "and shortly after pitted..." -> and pitted shortly after
• "James Hinchcliffe became victim to the deteriorating track" fell victim would be better
• "which placed his two laps down" his -> him
• "while the other drivers ran two laps behind the safety car" this is a bit confusing, I'm not sure ran two laps should be in this sentence, especially considering what comes before

Classification

• Personally, I would like to see the tables being full size not the 95% they are currently at. I don't see any benefit too having them at this size and it's a potential WP:ACCESS issue.
• I saw the discussion about flags on the talk page. While I'm not fussed about them being included, one option is to utilise the  (25x17px). So for Scott Dixon you would get Scott Dixon (NZL). Its not a necessity, but its a nice option to have should you feel the need to include them.
• The points column is a little confusing for me. Am I racing it correctly that all 25 drivers score points? As someone used to F1, thats a bit strange, but just want to clarify in case I'm missing something

Standings after the race

• Using a semi-colon as a bolding method is actually a WP:ACCESS issue. Apparently those using a screen-reader don't get the intended result. So I would advise you use table captions instead, as they do the same job and comply with our accessibility guidelines

References

• refs that are PDFs should include the parameter |format=PDF
• ref 11 doesn't work for me
• ref 25 Speed Channel inc has two full stops after it
• ref 26 has no accessdate

Overall this is a very well-written article which was a pleasure to read. I will place it on hold for the time being and will happily pass it once the issues are resolved. NapHit (talk) 19:56, 13 September 2012 (UTC)

Thanks for your review. I'm going to be pretty busy over the weekend, so I'm not going to be able to address these issues fully until Monday. Hope that won't be a problem. Harrias ^talk 20:22, 13 September 2012 (UTC)

No problem at all. NapHit (talk) 21:00, 13 September 2012 (UTC)

I've had a look and I think I've dealt with each of your points. Regarding cautions in the lead, I actually link it in the previous paragraph, so I don't think a link is necessary at the point you highlighted. I will consider the flagathlete code, but as discussed, that is a wider issue than just this article, so for the time being, I'll leave it be. I replaced ref #11 with another reference for the same quote. A yes, all 25 drivers score points, which results in such situations as we had at the weekend just gone when a driver who had crashed out had his car fixed and went out to run another 12 laps to put him a position higher! Harrias ^talk 06:30, 17 September 2012 (UTC)

All my points have been addressed so I'll pass the article, great work. NapHit (talk) 18:19, 17 September 2012 (UTC)