Talk:2023 Dublin riot/Archive 1

Article should be locked

article should probably be locked rn, because it's a current event — Preceding unsigned comment added by Bpk365 (talk • contribs) 22:31, 23 November 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Agree. Someone just tried to make an unfounded guess as to the suspect's origin. Borgenland (talk) 12:26, 24 November 2023 (UTC)[reply]

The opening paragraph also has this statement which is highly problematic and has no source:

"Across Europe and North America, violent crime has exploded with the influx of illegal migrants." 76.11.170.92 (talk) 14:02, 24 November 2023 (UTC)[reply]

That's been reverted several times but IPs keep imposing it. Borgenland (talk) 14:06, 24 November 2023 (UTC)[reply]

(Personal attack removed) 2800:150:141:1AE9:4D0B:45E7:23AE:16BD (talk) 19:25, 24 November 2023 (UTC)[reply]

2800:150:141:1AE9:4D0B:45E7:23AE:16BD, your taunting and insulting remarks violate Wikipedia's requirement to be civil and to "refrain from making personal attacks". If you continue in this vein, you may be blocked from editing. Spideog (talk) 19:43, 24 November 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Calling this mostly-peaceful protest a "riot" and including unsubstantiated claims that the people opposing racial violence against the Irish are "far right" is also highly problematic. 131.94.186.11 (talk) 23:37, 24 November 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Denying the thrashing of at least a dozen vehicles and looting of multiple businesses is a riot is actually more problematic. And these were taken from WP:RS not certain viewpoints by editors. Borgenland (talk) 00:45, 25 November 2023 (UTC)[reply]

The majority of reliable sources call this a riot and refer to the "rioters" as far-right. Queen of Hearts ❤️ (no relation) 01:27, 25 November 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Double standard regarding the riots in France. For more than a month it remained "only protests". ComradeHektor (talk) 18:44, 25 November 2023 (UTC)[reply]

I agree this article should be locked because of POV-pushing by anonymous accounts. Autarch (talk) 03:11, 25 November 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Interview with one of the people who stopped the initial attack

https://www.thejournal.ie/motorcyclist-hero-stops-school-stabbing-6231383-Nov2023/

Mostly confirming the identity but not sure how useful that is.©Geni (talk) 00:13, 24 November 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Requested move 24 November 2023

The following is a closed discussion of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on the talk page. Editors desiring to contest the closing decision should consider a move review after discussing it on the closer's talk page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

The result of the move request was: moved. It's snowing! (closed by non-admin page mover) Queen of Hearts ❤️ (no relation) 21:50, 24 November 2023 (UTC)[reply]

2023 Dublin unrest → 2023 Dublin riot – Both domestic and international media are majoritively referring to this event as a "riot" rather than simply "unrest". Examples:

It also follow previous Wikipedia naming conventions; see 2006 Dublin riots. CeltBrowne (talk) 06:17, 24 November 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Comment: It'd be 2023 Dublin riot, with "riot" lowercase. Queen of Hearts ❤️ (no relation) 06:47, 24 November 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Yes, sorry, that's an incorrect capitalisation on my part. 2023 Dublin riot would be the correct capitalisation. CeltBrowne (talk) 06:56, 24 November 2023 (UTC)[reply]

I agree. I came here searching on info about the 'riot' I'd heard about. Toothpickdog (talk) 07:34, 24 November 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Support as per media conventions. Borgenland (talk) 07:55, 24 November 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Adding to emphasize that government statements are not the sole WP:RS in this case as others would prefer.. Borgenland (talk) 12:07, 24 November 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Support as per previous Dublin riot articles: 2006 Dublin riots and 2021 Dublin riots. Edl-irishboy (talk) 08:10, 24 November 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Against I think the media has blown up this event, and given the current nature of the article, it should instead be renamed to 2023 Dublin stabbing attack or something of the sort, with a sub-section then detailing the unrest/riot which followed it and which, according to the police, was caused by a small group and did not involve ordinary Dubliners in any way. I am basing this off the police and government statements, which in this case I find somewhat more believable than media reports. --Dynamo128 (talk) 09:08, 24 November 2023 (UTC)[reply]

I agree. Against for same reasons. Smefs (talk) 09:14, 24 November 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Support this approach to renaming. The attack should be the focus, with the unrest/riot as a reaction to that. Masem (t) 13:23, 24 November 2023 (UTC)[reply]

The events have been reported by reliable, sober media as a riot. The media have not "blown up" or sensationalized the events. The nation's president, taoiseach, tánaiste, and many teachtaí dála made public statements expressing their shock and alarm at the extent and intensity of the violence.

Footage of the riot from multiple sources show clear evidence that the events were sensational, and required no colourful misrepresentation.

The large crowd (500 rioters) you describe as a "small group" caused widespread mayhem, injury, and serious damage to the point of complete destruction to people, property, and vehicles. The entire city was disrupted, transport services were cancelled throughout the city, and even into the following day, streets were blocked to traffic while the cleanup of the wreckage continued. Spideog (talk) 17:35, 24 November 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Support. It was a full-blown riot. Three or four streets were taken over. Cars, buses and trams were set on fire. The area was impassible for seven hours. Shop windows were smashed and the shops looted. Riot police were deployed. Basing this off the police statements, "Thursday night's scenes were unprecedented in the modern era in Dublin, far eclipsing the violence and criminal damage witnessed during the 'Love Ulster' riots of 2006" (Irish Times). The stabbings – awful as they were – would not have got a Wikipedia article had it not been for the riot that followed. Per CeltBrowne, British and American news outlets are calling it a riot. Scolaire (talk) 10:49, 24 November 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Support as per media conventions and previous Dublin riot articles. Autarch (talk) 11:06, 24 November 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Support per all above. S5A-0043^Talk 11:26, 24 November 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Support per media, asweel it semes that riot is more appropriate when there was loating and distruction.Unrest can make it sound like a peceful protest, which it was not. Roma enjoyer (talk) 12:41, 24 November 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Support as per media conventions and previous Dublin riot articles. Spleodrach (talk) 13:29, 24 November 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Support per above. StairySky (talk) 13:46, 24 November 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Support because the event is universally described in all media reports I have read and watched (a few dozen) as a "riot", because it clearly fits the definition of a riot, and because the term "unrest" is too mild to denote the scale and intensity of the violence that occurred, which has shocked Ireland. Spideog (talk) 14:45, 24 November 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Against. If the Kenosha unrest is not categorised as a riot then this shouldn't be either. Wikipedia is no place for political bias. 78.16.185.23 (talk) 16:01, 24 November 2023 (UTC)[reply]

The term "riot" (or, indeed, "unrest") contains no political leaning or bias; it is a neutral, non-political term which implies no left, right, centre, or any other political slant. It simply denotes a violent crowd disturbance.

Here are some dictionary definitions:

an occasion when a large number of people behave in a noisy, violent, and uncontrolled way in public
A wild or turbulent disturbance created by a large number of people.
A violent disturbance of the public peace by three or more persons assembled for a common purpose.
a disturbance made by an unruly mob or (in law) three or more persons; tumult or uproar
A riot is a violent outburst by a crowd.
A tumultuous disturbance of the public peace by a large group of people, often involving violence or damage to property.
When there is a riot, a crowd of people behave violently in a public place, for example they fight, throw stones, or damage buildings and vehicles.

These are unpolitical meanings and the violent events in Dublin fit all of these definitions. Spideog (talk) 17:18, 24 November 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Unless the Kenosha unrest article is renamed to "Kenosha riots" then referring to the unrest in Dublin last night as a riot is not in line with Wikipedia's naming conventions when it comes to other, more recent cases of civil unrest in the world. All of the definitions you listed here are as fitting for the Kenosha unrest as they are the Dublin unrest. Given that the unrest in Kenosha was significantly more destructive than the unrest in Dublin last night, I think it is fair to say that the double standard here is political in nature and also in violation of NPOV. 78.16.185.23 (talk) 17:54, 24 November 2023 (UTC)[reply]

You claim that using the word "riot" is "political bias". Please support your claim by explaining why you think "riot" is "bias" but "unrest" is not. All you have done so far is claim that it is bias without furnishing a persuasive argument. Show your evidence that "riot" is bias, and is the word "riot" biased for or against the rioters? Spideog (talk) 18:05, 24 November 2023 (UTC)[reply]

While there is a rough article naming convention for violence and deaths, it only covers a articles that involve a single individual. The naming convention for events like those of this article is NCEVENTS. While that does use a When, Where, What format as its primary scheme, it also tells us to defer to the descriptors used by reliable sources for the What.

In the case of the Kenosha unrest, it looks like reliable sources describe it as an unrest. However for this article, it seems as though reliable sources are now calling it a riot. While you may be right that this is a double standard, it is a double standard that is wholly out of our control. Per NPOV, we follow follow how reliable sources describe any given topic, and we do not lead the sources.

If you wish to get the Kenosha events described as a riot instead of an unrest, then you need to take that up with reliable sources directly. Not us. Until reliable sources call it the Kenosha riots, we cannot do so ourselves. Sideswipe9th (talk) 18:49, 24 November 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Support: I agree, the use of unrest seems to me a little bit forced and unnatural, and goes against what the media is calling it. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/User:EmilePersaud 16:08, 24 November 2023 (UTC) — Preceding unsigned comment added by EmilePersaud (talk • contribs) [reply]

Support per all above. Tehwind (talk) 16:56, 24 November 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Support - When I created the article, sources were initially calling it an unrest. However with the passage of time, the balance of sources seem to be calling it a riot, which makes sense given what happened. Also, are we approaching a snow close here? Sideswipe9th (talk) 17:52, 24 November 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Strongly Support - Irish police has compared the incident to the 2006 Dublin riots - per The Irish Times, reliable news sources have referred to it as "Dublin riots" including The Irish Times which is considered a newspaper of record. As for the suggestion that the stabbing should be the focus - that was not what made this make international news in the way that it did. Perhaps eventually a separate article could be written for the stabbing once there is more information about it. Lastly the article itself frames it as a riot and mainly uses that term in the lead. Operator-zeta (talk) 19:25, 24 November 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Support - If a large mob gathering and attacking people, smashing property, looting shops and burning police cars, buses and trams over the course of a night doesn't constitute a riot, I don't know what does. It also makes for consistency with the article about the 2006 Dublin riot. Gatepainter (talk) 20:32, 24 November 2023 (UTC)[reply]

The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

Separating the stabbing into a separate article

I believe that the stabbing and the rioting should be separated into two separate articles as there will most likely be more news to cover with the stabbing and the rioting alike and as they are two different events (even though one transpired into another event) Duck Dur (talk) 13:07, 24 November 2023 (UTC)[reply]

This article is no where close to size issues to require that separation, and the events are too closely linked to split. Masem (t) 13:24, 24 November 2023 (UTC)[reply]

I agree with Masem that the two events are intimately involved, the one providing the pretext for the other. They are parts of the same story.

If the story of the stabbing or of the riot, or both, grew into very long stories, perhaps splitting the article could be discussed in future. Talk of splitting now is premature. Spideog (talk) 14:58, 24 November 2023 (UTC)[reply]

It’s too early days for discussing splitting articles.. Edl-irishboy (talk) 15:59, 24 November 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Casualties

Can someone fix the infobox to include 1 seriously injured police officers? I keep running into errors every time I test it on preview. Borgenland (talk) 14:11, 24 November 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Can you link to a source that I can attach with that? CeltBrowne (talk) 14:13, 24 November 2023 (UTC)[reply]

https://apnews.com/article/ireland-rioting-dublin-stabbing-farright-2eaabb92b4e1623615a0860911cab91b. I mentioned it at the bottom of the Unrest section. Borgenland (talk) 14:16, 24 November 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Age of suspect

This article describes the stabber as aged 40s. More sources in this article are now referring to him in the 50s. Borgenland (talk) 14:31, 24 November 2023 (UTC)[reply]

It is stated on a RTÉ article that the person was in their 40s (this is the only state where I can find a age for the suspect Duck Dur (talk) 15:03, 24 November 2023 (UTC)[reply]

The sourcing for this seems to have changed overnight, which is not uncommon when dealing with a current event. Initially the suspect was reported as being in his 50s (see sources in article history), whereas sourcing today is either omitting the age (RTE), or reporting the suspect as being in his 40s (Irish Times, BBC News, Irish Independent).

I think there's two solutions we could use here. From a quick review, more sources are currently reporting that the suspect was in his 40s than 50s or omitting. We could report that he's in his 40s, using one or more of the recent sources. Or we could omit the age, until there is consistency across sources. I'd probably err on the side of caution, and omit the age until we have consistency of reporting (WP:BLP provides many reasons to do so). Sideswipe9th (talk) 18:18, 24 November 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Quoting the Gardai, I've added a note saying that their person of interest is in his 50s. Borgenland (talk) 01:21, 25 November 2023 (UTC)[reply]

I'm not so sure. The article that quote is sourced from is dated 23 November at 15:06, and I know that other sources from around that time also reported the same age. However sources published today, 24 November, either omit the age or are now reporting the suspect as being in his 40s (see my last reply for sources). I really think we need to omit the age for now @Borgenland, and wait for a more definite confirmation in the coming days. Will you please self-revert the addition of his age? Sideswipe9th (talk) 01:25, 25 November 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Ok. Probably also best to quote the Garda again once it comes. Borgenland (talk) 01:26, 25 November 2023 (UTC)[reply]

I still left some hopefully non-contentious descriptions to emphasize no other people are wanted for now. Borgenland (talk) 01:28, 25 November 2023 (UTC)[reply]

What remains looks more or less fine. Maybe a little disjointed in positioning, maybe we should swap the order of the sentences in the last paragraph of the stabbing section around. Bring the last sentence (begins with A Garda superintendent said that) to either the start of that paragraph, or to the end of the second paragraph. The incident room stuff, while important to the stabbing, is separate from the details relating to either the victims or the suspect. Sideswipe9th (talk) 01:35, 25 November 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Maybe adding a subheading on Gardai response I guess? Borgenland (talk) 02:01, 25 November 2023 (UTC)[reply]

No, I don't think what would be left after moving the content would either be long enough to warrant a subsection, or have the potential for growth to become a subsection. Sideswipe9th (talk) 02:03, 25 November 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Yeah, I don't think there'll be any issue quoting what Gardaí say whenever they chose to release more details about the suspect. For now though, best to err on the side of caution, given the already significant amounts of misinformation about this individual. Sideswipe9th (talk) 01:31, 25 November 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Map

Propose that a map of Dublin showing where the stabbing occurred and possibly major riot incidents be included. Borgenland (talk) 14:38, 24 November 2023 (UTC)[reply]

I believe this would be a good idea for the people who don't know Ireland but you should compel multiple videos and try to get it that way Duck Dur (talk) 15:01, 24 November 2023 (UTC)[reply]

If a map is created, there are numerous locations of events that it should include. The dozens of reports I have read and watched individually describe some – but not all – locations so compiling a comprehensive list of event locations will require careful harvesting from a variety of sources, Irish sources being the most knowledgeable about the layout of the city.

Such a map should show: 1. the site of the stabbing at Coláiste Mhuire on the east side of Parnell Square East, halfway between the Garden of Remembrance and the Gate Theatre; 2. later violence at the south end of that street, 3. violence along the whole length of O'Connell Street, 4. on Westmoreland Street, 5. at Arnott's shop on Henry Street, 6. at sundry locations between Busaras and Capel Street, as well as 7. a band extending north and south of those east–west extremities. Locations other than the ones I have identified may be found in reports that I have missed: violence was widely spread between different locations.

Anyone compiling a map should gather a comprehensive – and accurate – list of locations first, because including additional locations or correcting imprecisely identified locations could be more difficult once the first version has been created. Spideog (talk) 15:49, 24 November 2023 (UTC)[reply]

In the weekend edt of the Irish Times there is a map showing the events of the day if that would be any help putting it into Wikipedia Duck Dur (talk) 11:17, 25 November 2023 (UTC)[reply]

water-canon being brought in

Source if anyone wants to add:

https://www.rte.ie/news/ireland/2023/1124/1418256-rioting-dublin-city/

©Geni (talk) 16:07, 24 November 2023 (UTC)[reply]

not sure it's relevant for the article unless it ends up being used tonight or there is a larger conversation about riot suppression afterwards. Right now it seems more like news than something that will be important for anyone reading this page months or years down the line. Operator-zeta (talk) 19:29, 24 November 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Stabbings at Coláiste Mhuire or at crèche?

Is the Coláiste Mhuire on Parnell Square, where the stabbings occurred, still an active school, or is it a former location of the school now moved to Cabra?

Some news reports describe the stabbings as having occurred "outside Coláiste Mhuire" while others describe children lining up "outside the crèche" at that location before they were stabbed. Given how young the children were, I suspect they were attending a crèche which occupies the former site of Coláiste Mhuire.

If my guess is true, perhaps the article would be more accurate if we knew the name of the crèche so we could substitute that name for instances of "Coláiste Mhuire" in the article. Spideog (talk) 16:25, 24 November 2023 (UTC)[reply]

I have looked at 4 Parnell Square East in Google Street View and the site is described by Google Maps – correctly or incorrectly – as "Gaelscoil Choláiste Mhuire".

It was not possible to read the brass nameplate beside the front door to determine if it is still called that or if there is the name of a crèche instead.

It's a puzzle because the Coláiste Mhuire article states clearly that the school "was based at Parnell Square" until 2002, when "the school relocated to a new campus in Cabra in view of the poor condition of the Parnell Square buildings." Spideog (talk) 16:54, 24 November 2023 (UTC)[reply]

I think I've figured out where the confusion lies. It seems though Gaelscoil Choláiste Mhuire is currently split over two sites, one on Ratoath Road near Cabra, and the other at 4 Parnell Square. The school used to be based solely at 23-27 Parnell Square, until it split in the early 2000s, with the primary school (the Gaelscoil) moving to 4 Parnell Square, and the secondary school (Gaelcholáiste) moving to Cabra. Sideswipe9th (talk) 18:07, 24 November 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Thank you for the reply. Do you have a source or citation to confirm that part of the school remained at 4 Parnell Square East? I would update the Coláiste Mhuire article with that information if I had a reference to support it.

It seems perverse that the school was in such poor repair in 2002 that the older pupils moved to another location, leaving the small children in a building of such "poor condition". Have a close look at the dilapidated front door of the Parnell Square building two years ago. I wouldn't condemn children of tender years to inhabit such a dingy property. Spideog (talk) 18:14, 24 November 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Secondary sources no. I can't quickly find anything in English, and my Irish isn't strong enough to conduct a search in Irish on this. Primary sources though, the 4 Parnell Square link in my reply above, takes you to an English language history of the school on the primary school's website. It might be acceptable in a limited ABOUTSELF manner to cite this.

that the older pupils moved to another location, leaving the small children in a building of such "poor condition" That's not what happened. According to the school's website, prior to the early 2000s, the school was based at a single site on 23-27 Parnell Square. In the early 2000s, the school split, with both leaving the 23-27 Parnell Square site, with the secondary school moving to Cabra, and the primary school moving down the road to 4 Parnell Square. To restate, both the primary and secondary schools moved in the early 2000s, and the school does not maintain a presence at the former site on 23-27 Parnell Square. Sideswipe9th (talk) 18:28, 24 November 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Ah, the school split and both halves moved! How cunning of them. The crafty buggers threw their pursuers off the scent. Finally it makes sense. Thank you for the enlightenment. Spideog (talk) 18:33, 24 November 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Yes! The photo you found on Commons is of the old site, at 23-27 Parnell Square (it's mislabelled on Google Maps as 19 Parnell Square North). And yeah, it's in pretty bad shape. The current site of the primary school is this gray door, listed on Google Maps as 4 Parnell Square East. Sideswipe9th (talk) 18:38, 24 November 2023 (UTC)[reply]

I've updated the Coláiste Mhuire article to describe the splitting and relocation of the two parts of the school. Thanks. Spideog (talk) 18:46, 24 November 2023 (UTC)[reply]

What made the rioters go on the riot?

The current article is confusing in linking the two events, the stabbing and the riot, together. Basically, it just says there was a riot after a stabbing attack on the same day, in the same city, but didn't explain why people were rioting, and what the so-called "rumors" were. Two events sequenced temporally do not automatically mean they are connected, right? We all know that wikipedia is "not censored", but... if some materials are too sensitive, should we add a sentence like "for reasons too sensitive to state explicitly here, which were used by agitators, riot broke out subsequently."? Sofeshue (talk) 11:30, 25 November 2023 (UTC)[reply]

As the article says, Rumours spread on the WhatsApp, Telegram and Signal messaging apps. The rumour was that the assailant was an illegal immigrant, and that the children were dead, i.e "they" are killing "our kids". The far right took the opportunity to organise a riot. I'll add that now. Scolaire (talk) 12:18, 25 November 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Many of the rioters were opportunist criminals. Looting shops & torching buses isn't a political statement. X2023X (talk) 12:53, 25 November 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Elon Musk

Elon Musk has claimed PM Varadkar “hates Irish people” after the latter announced support for tightening hate speech laws following the riot.

I’m not sure whether Musk’s comment should be included here or not, since it was an indirect (rather than direct) response to the riot, and Musk is not Irish (although he’s something of a transnational oligarch). So I’m not going to add it yet, but just wanted to bring it up in case someone else thinks it should be added. 2600:1014:B07D:3336:BCC9:40B:EC4:AA3F (talk) 20:11, 25 November 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Lead too long

Further additions to the lead section will make it too long. The lead should contain no more than four paragraphs. WP:LEAD. Edl-irishboy (talk) 16:02, 26 November 2023 (UTC)[reply]

I agree ComradeHektor (talk) 19:49, 26 November 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Boris Johnson

I don't know if this should be included, but it seems former British Prime Minister Boris Johnson has commented on the riot. From The Independent: Boris Johnson has labelled the violent scenes in Dublin “race riots”, and suggested that “achingly liberal” countries like Ireland now have concerns about the pace of immigration. Like Elon Musk he's nothing to do with Ireland so I'll leave it to you guys to decide. This is Paul (talk) 20:11, 26 November 2023 (UTC)[reply]

I think it could be included in the international part of the reactions section, though I'm not totally sure as Boris Johnson is no longer a head of state or in any other high position in the UK government and I don't know if that makes him not notable enough to be included. LynxesDesmond (talk) 21:12, 26 November 2023 (UTC)[reply]

I wasn't sure about notability. He continues to be a public figure in the UK, although he's no longer a politician and is only commenting as a journalist these days. This is Paul (talk) 23:37, 26 November 2023 (UTC)[reply]

@This is Paul I think if any major media has mentioned it, it could count. ComradeHektor (talk) 00:33, 27 November 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Mantain neutral POV

Until now all the media refer only to a statement by the police chief to affirm that it is only people from the extreme right. Given the magnitude of the events, I do not believe that is the case. ComradeHektor (talk) 21:45, 25 November 2023 (UTC)[reply]

No specific group has been mentioned either. ComradeHektor (talk) 21:49, 25 November 2023 (UTC)[reply]

looking at the footage and pictures, far right signs and slogans are heard and seen, So statement by Drew Harris is accurate. IrishDeafBoy (talk) 10:07, 28 November 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Nationality of assailant

In the main part of the article it's written that the assailant is allegedly an Algerian national. However, here it says that he's an Irish citizen, originally from Algeria, who has been living in Ireland for 20 years. I think the wording should be changed to reflect this. LynxesDesmond (talk) 20:46, 24 November 2023 (UTC)[reply]

I've actually removed this sentence. There's no reliable sources that have confirmed the nationality of the assailant, as it has yet to be released by the Gardai. Sideswipe9th (talk) 21:24, 24 November 2023 (UTC)[reply]

If the speculation is reliably sourced it should be included, with appropriate caveats, as it is highly relevant to the subsequent rioting. Springnuts (talk) 09:52, 25 November 2023 (UTC)[reply]

The national origin is not very clear either, I added a text about it. ComradeHektor (talk) 18:47, 25 November 2023 (UTC)[reply]

The nationality has since been reported by The Times of London, a reliable source. Selfgyrus (talk) 14:57, 27 November 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Is that source [28](https://www.thetimes.co.uk/article/dublin-stabbing-victim-is-from-migrant-family-3nw0fsppv)? That part of the article seems to be behind a paywall. 84.25.221.24 (talk) 00:13, 29 November 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Yes, the Sunday Times is behind a paywall. The relevant section reads: "The chief suspect in the stabbings that led to the riots was once the subject of a deportation order, senior garda sources said yesterday. The Sunday Times has learnt that the man, originally from Algeria and in his fifties, was arrested in 2003."

I have added a second source, the Irish Times, which has also reported the man's country of origin as Algeria. Selfgyrus (talk) 11:20, 29 November 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Racial riots?

We should add the category? ComradeHektor (talk) 07:48, 30 November 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Redundancy in the lead?

@Bastun, you are correct in your edit summary in saying that that MOS:REDUNDANCY says of redundancy: If the article's title does not lend itself to being used easily and naturally in the first sentence, the wording should not be distorted in an effort to include it.

But in the next sentence it adds: Instead, simply describe the subject in normal English, avoiding unnecessary redundancy.

And this is followed by an incorrect usage example containing redundancy followed by a correct usage example with no redundancy thus:

The 2011 Mississippi River floods were a series of floods affecting the Mississippi River in April and May 2011...

Major floods along the Mississippi River in April and May 2011...

If we now compare that with my version of the the first sentence in this article:

Rioting took place on the evening of 23 November 2023 in Dublin, Ireland,...

followed by yours:

The 2023 Dublin Riot took place on the evening of 23 November 2023 in Dublin, Ireland,...

Which do you think better matches the incorrect usage example and which the correct? -- DeFacto (talk). 18:46, 5 December 2023 (UTC)[reply]

I think The 2023 Dublin Riot took place on the evening of 23 November 2023 in Dublin, Ireland, and involved incidents of vandalism, arson, [etc.] flows quite naturally, but if you want to change it back, feel free. Bastun^{Ėġáḍβáś₮ŭŃ!} 10:03, 6 December 2023 (UTC)[reply]

I have to give my approval to DeFacto's edition. This recent event is not known universally as the "2023 Dublin riot" in the way that the Easter Rising is (and it certainly is not a proper noun requiring a capital letter on both words). Unknown Temptation (talk) 21:05, 7 December 2023 (UTC)[reply]

"far surpassing the 2006 riots"

The second sentence in the article currently reads "Gardaí described the riot as the most violent in modern Dublin history, far surpassing the 2006 riots". As far as I can see there is no citation supporting this assertion. Does anyone know where and when Gardaí claimed the riots "far surpassed" 2006? I've added a citation needed tag for now. Boardwalk.Koi (talk) 22:00, 7 December 2023 (UTC)[reply]

This was already cited to a piece by The Irish Times in the article body. I've copied that citation up to the lead now too. Sideswipe9th (talk) 22:03, 7 December 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Thanks mate. I should've seen that. Boardwalk.Koi (talk) 22:06, 7 December 2023 (UTC)[reply]