Talk:Adventism/Archive 1

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Archive 1

Start

I'm an Adventist. Let's build us a page.

What would you like to see on an Adventist Page? I would like a page on Adventist Beliefs a Forum for people to speak about how Adventists needs to change to be more relevant in today’s world. MPP

What we shall see in an article about Adventist is determined by the purpose and policies of Wikipedia. This is an encyclopedia, I'll answer more below. Said: Rursus ☻ 18:50, 17 October 2007 (UTC)

Why was this section removed?

I started this as a foundation to build upon and it was deleted. I'm curious as to why. It's not to be a dictionary, but a building block for the article:

 ADVENTISTS [Adventists] [advent, Lat.,=coming], Generally speaking, Adventist(s) are members of a group of 
 religiously related denominations whose distinctive doctrine is centered around their belief in the imminent 
 second coming of Jesus Christ. Maniwar (talk) 01:55, 14 October 2006 (UTC)

Not a disambig

This really shouldn't be a disambig page; there seems to be a need for a (possibly short) substantive article that outlines what all the Adventist denominations have in common, including their common history and development, along with links to more detailed articles about particular denominations. Currently that type of article either doesn't exist, or isn't clearly linked from here. --Russ (talk) 15:38, 14 January 2007 (UTC)

Agreed. Although there seem to be many kinds of Adventists, they all seem to be related. Ewlyahoocom 07:09, 31 January 2007 (UTC)

I agree. I would like to see a section on theology. I imagine that most Adventist groups see themselves or saw themselves as the true church. Most probably emphasize the law more than other popular (but not necessarily all scholarly) Christian beliefs. A good number keep the Sabbath. Probably all or most have been considered either a cult or as sect by more mainstream groups either presently or at least in the past. Perhaps many of them believe in conditional immortality/annihilationism and an unconscious state of the dead (the SDAs do at least). I'm not an expert, so someone please do proper research before writing such a section. I have a good understanding of the Seventh-day Adventist Church, but not much about the other groups. Colin MacLaurin 07:34, 18 May 2007 (UTC)

Groups

What about the Worldwide Church of God and related movements. Are they "Adventist"? What about the Jehovah's Witnesses? Colin MacLaurin 08:40, 18 May 2007 (UTC)

I am now confident that the Worldwide Church of God are Adventist in the majority view. Someone else clearly thinks so too, because Category:Church of God (Armstrong) is a child of Category:Adventist. In fact, the other churches and individuals in this category should be integrated into this article.

John Thomas (Christadelphian) was impacted by the Millerite movement (see also Christadelphians). Several Millerite Adventists impacted Charles Taze Russell of the Bible Student movement, from which the Jehovah's Witnesses emerged. Whether or not these groups are classified "Adventist", the article could at least mention Adventist influences on them. Colin MacLaurin 10:31, 20 May 2007 (UTC)

The article on Christadelphians tells us so, but they were also influenced by the Stone-Campbell Movement and the Unitarianism. I believe they shouldn't be regarded as an Adventist denomination. Instead they should be mentioned in section Other relationships. Rursus dixit. (^mbork³!) 17:57, 18 April 2010 (UTC)

Sounds good to me - do it! Colin MacLaurin (talk) 02:03, 22 April 2010 (UTC)

Encyclopedia

Wished in any encyclopedia:

a balanced and pretty complete description of a certain topic, if the topic is controversial (such as is not Adventist), special care must be taken that the description handles the topic in a factual tone, that balances pro/con in a manner that is the same as the common opinion of the world,
an ingress, i.e. an initial overview,
details, theology, history, important front figure,
references, internal links and external links;

Said: Rursus ☻ 18:58, 17 October 2007 (UTC)

MPP said on Dec 10 2008: The Seventh-day Adventist has influenced many groups but to say they are Seventh-day Adventist is wrong. However Adventist is a wider term and many denominations could fall under this term, however to be Adventist ones focused of the church is on eschatological or the end time events, second coming of Jesus Christ. JW Jehovah Witness may be considered Adventist but they have a very different view of the last day events than Seventh-day Adventist. World Wide Church of Christ has more historical connection with Adventist. It would be interesting to build a chart that compares theology of Adventist. The other distinct doctrine of Seventh-day Adventist is its view on the sanctuary which is actually the central theological point from which all other Seventh-day Adventist beliefs emerge. This would include the Sabbath doctrine. Another comparison is the many Sabbatarian denominations that exist not all are Adventist and many worship diffrently. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Michael paul paolini (talk • contribs) 07:15, 10 December 2008 (UTC)

Creation Seventh Day Adventist Church

I removed the Creation Seventh Day Adventist Church section, due to undue weight. Colin MacLaurin (talk) 01:39, 9 December 2007 (UTC)

Re-adding it; I don't see how undue weight has anything to do with this matter, as it was not a large entry to begin with. Qinael (talk) 23:48, 31 October 2008 (UTC)

The policy says tiny-minority views will generally not be mentioned at all, not to mention have an entire section. Colin MacLaurin (talk) 03:46, 4 November 2008 (UTC)

That is a clear misunderstanding on "tiny-minority views". Representing a "tiny-minority view" in a discussion on some certain topic, such as the flat-Earth theorist view in the article on Earth and/or on Planet, is a typical case of where a "tiny-minority view" should be disregarded. Whenever a "tiny-minority view" is the 'direct topic of the article, that rule does not apply. There is an article on Flat Earth Society, that is notable. ... said: Rursus (bork²) 21:13, 10 July 2009 (UTC)

This is not a "direct topic" of the article. Rather, it is a very, very small subset of the present article. Colin MacLaurin (talk) 11:58, 14 July 2009 (UTC)

Denominational ordering

I have changed the ordering of the the denominations listed on the article by the dates they are created. This means that the Advent Christian Church is first (founded in 1860), Seventh Day Adventist are second (founded in 1863) and Church of God General Conference (founded in 1921?). I believe that this is the most neutral way to order these denominations in the article based on verifiable information. --Farix (Talk) 23:34, 19 July 2009 (UTC)

I see that the denominational order has been changed again. Can anyone give a reason why? --Farix (Talk) 22:48, 15 August 2009 (UTC)

They were ordered according to over all historical significance. Some were organized earlier than others, but they have had relatively little impact on the world. Some have disappeared. Some have merged with others. Some still exist in small pockets here and there. The larger and more well known are listed before the lesser known ones. This is not meant to be demeaning. It stands to reason that the larger ministries are somehow making a greater impact and are likely to be seen as more significant. Trabucogold (talk) 23:10, 15 August 2009 (UTC)

(edit conflict with ealier replay) How do you objectively determine historical significance? Assuming that larger means more significant seems to be rather POV. Founding order is the most most neutral manner of ordering the denominations. Next to that would be alphabetic order. --Farix (Talk) 23:15, 15 August 2009 (UTC)

I just described what is objectively historical significance. No need to go over it again. Before, the ordering was extremely confusing without obvious connection between related organizations. I'll go with as is for now, although, success and historical significance of the organizations is easily measured by membership. Trabucogold (talk) 23:44, 15 August 2009 (UTC)

I have to completely disagree that membership size is any indicator of historical significance. A denomination can have a great deal of historical significance, but have a relativity small membership today. You simply can't judge historical significance on today's numbers. Significance implies influence, and influence is nearly impossible to objectively measure in a neutral manner, much else actually verify. That's why founding dates is a much better way to sort the denominations. There are no interpretations regarding significance, it's easily verifiable, and no one can argue that the order reflects some sort of point of view. --Farix (Talk) 00:00, 16 August 2009 (UTC)

Both TheFarix and Trabucogold make valuable contributions, thank-you. As for the prominence of various groups, that will be determined by what the leading independent reliable sources say are the most prominent. As for membership, of course this is a key determinant, and will usually rank prominence, but not always. For instance Jewish population is less than Seventh-day Adventist Church membership, yet the former is far more prominent. Colin MacLaurin (talk) 02:40, 19 August 2009 (UTC)

What about the connections the Adventists such as SDAs have with Mormonism, Christian Scientists, Pentecostals and Seventh Day Baptists? They have some similar practices, beliefs and observances among each other, including the SDAs' avoidance of drugs, stimulants or other things (the SDAs are vegetarians) in order for one to maintain good health? + 71.102.7.77 (talk) 00:24, 27 December 2009 (UTC)

Other than the Sabbath connection with the Seventh-day Baptists, all the other similarities are purely superficial. A S-d Baptist woman introduced the Sabbath to early Adventists. But the Mormons, Christian Scientists and Pentecostals have had no direct connection with the SDA church. Much of these ideas came from the Temperance Movement which was nondenominational. Trabucogold (talk) 17:41, 28 December 2009 (UTC)

Trabucogold's answer is solid. Another parallel which is sometimes drawn is that Adventists, Christian Scientists, Mormons, and Jehovah's Witnesses all developed at a similar time, and all had leaders claiming to be prophets. All have been considered fringe Christian movements, or in the case of Adventism, semi-fringe (e.g. Martin E. Marty's assessment). Yet as for health practices above, these similarities come from their emergence in a similar cultural milieu, not from interaction between the bodies. For instance, a lay person suggested Ellen White may have incorporated some of Joseph Smith's teachings, but scholars have rejected this claim, arguing instead that similarities arise from being in a similar culture. Colin MacLaurin (talk) 01:25, 7 January 2010 (UTC)

Yes, except I agree with Farix that it is more proper if the denominations are listed chronologically after their formal foundation. That is the most objective way to list them. Rursus dixit. (^mbork³!) 18:00, 18 April 2010 (UTC)

We should research the way the leading reliable sources list them. Colin MacLaurin (talk) 02:04, 22 April 2010 (UTC)

This article is very US-centric

Somebody should add information about adventists in the rest of the world!

                                       Kjetil Halvorsen 03:44, 24 August 2010 (UTC)  —Preceding unsigned comment added by Kjetil1001 (talk • contribs)

True, Adventism in other countries like England for example could be mentioned. However the movement did start in the U.S., and this article focuses on the beginnings I guess, whereas articles for the individual denominations have a broader scope. Colin MacLaurin (talk) 01:28, 30 August 2010 (UTC)

Church of God and Saints of Christ

I do not think this church should be in this article. It may be named "Church of God", but the link says it claims to be "the oldest African-American congregation in the United States that adheres to the tenets of Judaism" and "Members believe that Jesus was neither God nor the son of God, but rather a strict adherent to Judaism and a prophet sent by God." 184.100.95.193 (talk) 14:23, 21 January 2013 (UTC) Rod

John T. Walsh

Editors/reviewers needed for the article John_T._Walsh_(Adventist). Mendelo (talk) 18:27, 1 March 2013 (UTC)

WCG

Worldwide church of god, www.wcg.org.uk — Preceding unsigned comment added by 86.14.76.64 (talk) 18:48, 29 January 2015 (UTC)

Adventist Group Singers in Bukidnon, Philippines: "The Elysian Singers"

It was newly started in January 2, 2015 when the youth members of Mailag adventist Church in Valencia City, Bukidnon, Philippines decided to create a singing group in that area. 4 person was the member of this singing group under the founder of Mr. Johnson C. Pansoy who was graduated in Central Bukidnon Institute. the members of this group are: kennu Demerin, Jun Felix Tuburan Kervin ken O. Boten and Sofia Marie Chavez Murillo. And now they have created more than 10 songs that Compost by Hernan A. Pansoy. The songs that written by the composer was: Love the Lord Your God, Since First, Fairest than Any and many more. Yet the problem is only 3 participated on this group including the founder. Now today, we are requesting all the Adventist Youth all over the world to join us here in Mailag S.D.A. Church, P9- Mailag, Dabong-Dabong, Valencia City, Bukidnon, Philippines. You can contact us by this number: +639161918894. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Cabiling97 (talk • contribs) 09:33, 29 March 2015 (UTC)

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Assessment comment

The comment(s) below were originally left at Talk:Adventism/Comments, and are posted here for posterity. Following several discussions in past years, these subpages are now deprecated. The comments may be irrelevant or outdated; if so, please feel free to remove this section.

Needs more reference citations and references. John Carter 14:53, 1 October 2007 (UTC)

Substituted at 01:09, 22 May 2016 (UTC)

List

Are SDA evangelical or reformed churches? Abenezer Elias (talk) 11:13, 23 December 2021 (UTC)

Except for very liberal Adventists, SDA are Protestant fundamentalists, în the original meaning of underwriting the book The Fundamentals. tgeorgescu (talk) 12:11, 23 December 2021 (UTC)