Talk:Afro-Germans

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You forget to mention famous Afro German musicians like Sugar MMFk and Manuellsen, they deserve to be on that list — Preceding unsigned comment added by 2003:CB:4F22:BD00:F019:7111:CB35:AFA2 (talk) 18:44, 14 February 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Afro-Germans[edit]

The whole article is a philosphical insult and transfers american racial concepts to a totally different context. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 131.130.227.149 (talk) 19:51, 2 March 2017 (UTC)[reply]

Afro-Germans / Nazi Germany[edit]

Nothing in this part of the article has been properly cited. It is all hearsay. Can anyone with better knowledge in the subject attempt to verify the claims and 'cite' as needed? —Preceding unsigned comment added by Orasis (talk • contribs) 17:01, 27 January 2010 (UTC)[reply]

There is no such thing as Afro-Germans.

Edited the first part[edit]

I have just edited a part of the first section because I found it biased, unproven and POV. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 77.75.205.231 (talk) 10:58, 29 December 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Translation errors[edit]

This page has some serious translation errors in it. Some of it is so bad I can't even figure out what they're trying to say to correct it.. Please help fix it if you have time. TastyCakes 03:54, 13 March 2006 (UTC)[reply]

I can help explaining what was supposed to be said, if you tell me - English native speakers might put it best into words. Louis3ham 06:21, 18 April 2006 (UTC)[reply]

History - Afro-Germans since 1945[edit]

I doubt, that the integration of Afro-Germans was made possible by the so-called "Americanization"... Anyone opposing? --217.227.191.237 15:09, 10 August 2006 (UTC)[reply]

no —Preceding unsigned comment added by 84.164.224.17 (talk) 18:02, 3 March 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Too many SPG errors - unencyclopaedic[edit]

This article has too many SPG errors. I've fixed a few but have given up. Also, what the hell does this sentence mean?:

"To become invisible with the evident visibility and compulsion had become less a life condition than an act of balance."

138.243.129.4 10:56, 15 February 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Article should be moved to Black-Africans in Germany[edit]

German is an ethnic group native to Germany and the term Afro-German is even close to being commonly used. Wikipedia should not make new identities for people. Wikipedia is not an instrument for social change. Social change first happens and then Wikipedia can write about it. For now we cannot have an article with this title. It should be moved to Black-Africans in Germany (similar to Turks in Germany, Greeks in Germany, etc).

Can I get some input on this before I move the article for consistency? ... so that I don't get accused of being racist again... CanuckAnthropologist (talk) 05:15, 21 June 2008 (UTC)[reply]
First, "Afro-German" as a term garners 35k hits in Google, so you can hardly say the term is unheard of. Second, the very construction of the term you use, "Africans in XXX" seems to convey the notion that Black people don't belong in country XXX, even those born there (we've already been over the primary meaning of "native"). For these reasons, I'd advise you to stop moving pages this way.--Ramdrake (talk) 10:31, 21 June 2008 (UTC)[reply]
You are assuming too many things. Look at the articles Greeks in Germany, Turks in Germany, etc. We need maintain consistency and that is why Africans in Germany is a better article title, since its consistent with the other articles on German citizens of non-German ancestry. CanuckAnthropologist (talk) 17:16, 21 June 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Here's your WP:Third Opinion!

As far as I can tell there's a significant precedent for using the term 'African-German' in scholarly literature. There's even academic precedents for the term 'Afro-German', though I would hesitate to use it.

  1. Kestling, Robert W. "Blacks under the swastika: a research note". The Journal of Negro History. 83 (1998). Retrieved 2008-06-21.
  2. Blackshire-Belay, Carol Aisha. "The African-German Experience: Critical Essays". {{cite journal}}: |access-date= requires |url= (help); Cite journal requires |journal= (help); Text "1997" ignored (help)
  3. Hundreds more journals I can't be bothered to cite right now.

Given this (especially the huge weight of the second article), I can't see any reason to move the article from 'African-German'. If you have any comments, please visit my talk page! -Rushyo (talk) 10:47, 21 June 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Thanks Rushyo for responding to my request. Actually I prefer African German over Afro German and I'm the one that moved it to African-Polish. However, looking at the articles Greeks in Germany, Turks in Germany, and others, I think this article should be named the same way to maintain consistency. What do you think Rushyo? CanuckAnthropologist (talk) 17:23, 21 June 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Since there's no official style, as far as I can see, to be followed in this situation I'm loathed to state any kind of personal opinion that might be misinterpreted as a formal judgment. The overly semantic nature of the debate means that there is no obvious solution. I would not support 'Black-Africans in Germany' as a term, however, simply on the grounds that the term does not see widespread academic use.

'Africans in Germany' would make more sense to me, but not specifically any more than 'African Germans'. However, given the additional weight of an apparent precedent on Wikipedia I would lean towards 'Africans in Germany' for now. I would not opt for 'Afro-German' or 'Black-Africans in Germany' due to a lack of notability. -Rushyo (talk) 14:06, 22 June 2008 (UTC) You should change the name to black-german! 30-50% of the so called african-german population is in fact of african-american descent so i dont think afro or african-german is a correct term for the entire black german population! —Preceding unsigned comment added by 92.224.65.228 (talk) 19:22, 18 April 2009 (UTC)[reply]

The Questionable Introduction[edit]

The data that is not supported by a sitation in the introduction is wrong. The UK does have a question regarding ethnicity on the census and this has been quoted on wikipedia as 1,148,738 Black or Black British (2001 census) [1]. This is nothing like 10 times 300,000 - 500,000 Afro-germans so the missinformation should be deleted. (Liveupdate (talk) 04:01, 11 December 2009 (UTC)).[reply]

Questionable terminology in Black Africans in modern Germany section[edit]

Most of the people in this section are German citizens and so no longer African. Another problem is that there are a large number of people who have one white German parent and one black parent who is often African-American. This means that it is questionable whether they are black (perhaps there needs to be a german multiracial/mixed heratige page)but definately means they are German.

Just for the music section:

German born (hence not African but German) black people include: Taktloss Nadja Benaissa (she is not black: half Morroccan and half German ethnic Roma) Cassandra Steen

Mixed race Germans on the list include: Samy Deluxe Jonesmann B-Tight (born in US to German mother, grew up in Berlin) Joy Denalane Francisca Urio Mark Medlock Jessica Wahls Rob Pilatus

Afrob (is Italian not black African, he does have Eritrean heritage) Haddaway (is Trinidadian not black African, just black)

This does reiterate some of the comments earlier on the disscussion page but still needs to be improved. They are black or mixed race German citizens. Not black Africans in Germany orblack African rap musicians in Germany. (Liveupdate (talk) 04:33, 11 December 2009 (UTC))[reply]

"Brown Babies"[edit]

Please someone proof that this is the case. Otherwise it should be removed. These are accusations I've never heard of. Wikipedia is not the place for speculations. --Maturion (talk) 12:17, 22 May 2010 (UTC)[reply]

the hole paragraph is a little bit wierd - and I have never heard of the term 'braue Babies' or 'braune Kinder' (i guess negerkinder (until the 1980 neger (german for negro) was the standard term for black people) would be more likly, but i haven't heard that eather)78.43.149.150 (talk) 15:20, 5 June 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Interracial marriage prohibited after world war II? I doubt that and would like to see a source. The Nuremberg Laws were not in effect anymore. Possibly an American Law? 78.35.204.32 (talk) 15:06, 26 November 2010 (UTC)[reply]

interracial marriage was still prohibited in many US States (but not in Germany) - and the term brown babies was (according to the brown babies article) a term used by the Americans for children of African-American soldiers and German women - not a term used by Germans. German terms would have been Mischling/Minschlingskinder and Neger/Negerkinder (both terms are not considered pc anymore in Germany today)178.210.114.106 (talk) 14:45, 11 March 2013 (UTC)[reply]

NORTH AFRICAN GERMANS[edit]

A great part of them are not "Black" but Arab and Berber from North Africa.--81.36.200.154 (talk) 04:19, 8 September 2012 (UTC)[reply]

External links modified[edit]

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Wst German government porsued - footnote 13[edit]

This is the opinion of one author but not a fact! Emotions have nothing to do with facts which can be prooved... (alternatve facts stuff) I feel very well as a German with dark skin and the English wikipedia has got a strong "movie-view" which always reminds on scenes from Schindlers List or whatever. The truth is, that the situation is and has always been much more complicated and complex than this article prsesnts it. I wish more detailed research and not a Primary School article. Thx! — Preceding unsigned comment added by 2A02:810A:1140:59DC:F0DC:9CD:E499:1816 (talk) 11:55, 27 February 2017 (UTC)[reply]

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Sources for figures in table[edit]

"Cities with considerable populations of Afro-German descent include the following:[15][16][17]" - #17 (http://www.bpb.de/nachschlagen/zahlen-und-fakten/soziale-situation-in-deutschland/61646/migrationshintergrund-i) doesn't mention populations with Afro-German descent; #16 (http://isdonline.de/) doesn't seem to have any statistics at all; #15 (http://www.statistik-berlin-brandenburg.de/statis/login.do?guest=guest&db=EWRBEE) doesn't work, but if it would, it would only show figures for Berlin. So where are those numbers traken from? Those sources aren't valid. --StYxXx (talk) 18:12, 19 February 2018 (UTC)[reply]

Dark Ages???[edit]

"The first Black People in Germany were there around the Dark Ages, then in the 17th century" Dark ages? Can we have that a bit more meaningful? Unfortunately, the source given is a book not available to me, but I lean to remove the "Dark Ages" reference as pointless claim. Wefa (talk) 06:05, 3 January 2021 (UTC)[reply]


East Germany?[edit]

What about Afro-Germans in the GDR?

How many are there ?[edit]

@Belevalo: If you want to make a change and you see that another editor disagrees, you should take the discussion to talk (WP:BRD). I disagree for these reasons: A source from 2005 cannot support a claim about the number of Afro-Germans in 2022. The census data are only about people having at least one grandparent born in sub-Saharan Africa. What about Black people who immigrated from the Americas ? And, even more important: There are families who have been living in Germany for more than a 120 years. Rsk6400 (talk) 19:29, 24 January 2022 (UTC)[reply]

new source is for 2020. Belevalo (talk) 19:37, 24 January 2022 (UTC)[reply]
But the problem with the census data is still there. Rsk6400 (talk) 19:48, 24 January 2022 (UTC)[reply]
that might be the case, but we can't know for sure. since the country doesn't allow counting people based on race, the best we can do is count people with immigrant backgrounds. There is not sure way to claim a number other than making potentially wild estimates that can't be backed up by data since it's illegal to collect said data. numbers might be slightly larger but i doubt by much. as for the black initiative, their quote has to be taken as unreliable since they benefit from claiming higher potential numbers. or maybe they just include north africans with sub saharan africans. Belevalo (talk) 19:53, 24 January 2022 (UTC)[reply]
@Belevalo: Please look at what you do: At African diaspora, you twice restored the problem with the four identical references (ref. no. 1). Also: You made 4 reverts, I suggest you self-revert. Rsk6400 (talk) 19:59, 24 January 2022 (UTC)[reply]
again. IT"S OFFICIAL DATA. like it or not is the best most reliable source. Also, I'm increasingly suspicious that you're just the sockpuppet of user:Hassanjalloh1. Belevalo (talk) 20:05, 24 January 2022 (UTC)[reply]

Please note that Belevalo has been blocked indefinitely for edit warring and for personal attacks, see User_talk:Belevalo#Indefinitely_blocked. --Rsk6400 (talk) 14:59, 25 January 2022 (UTC)[reply]

In the census there are around 450k foreign nationals from Sub-Saharan African countries living in Germany in 2021. Most of them should be black people. Around 60k foreign nationals of Sub-Saharan African countries were naturalized to Germany since 2000 (See de:Demografie_Deutschlands#Einbürgerungen. In 2021 120k US Americans lived in Germany, and I'm not sure, but I guess at most half of them are black people. (Black people make up about 12.1% of the U.S.) Only 16k US Americans were naturalized to Germany since 2000. Black US Americans are therefore negligible. Even more negligible is the handful of black people who have lived in Germany for 120 years. The larger migration movements that are more significant are much more recent.--Hi, future humans! (talk) 19:49, 7 November 2022 (UTC)[reply]
That is called "original research" (see WP:OR), and cannot be used on WP. Rsk6400 (talk) 05:20, 8 November 2022 (UTC)[reply]

Map[edit]

represents foreign nationals of sub saharan Africa that live within Germany and are registered in the Central Register of Foreign Nationals (Germany). The statistical offices in Germany don't collect data on ethnicity, but only on nationality. So this is the closest possible distribution map at the moment. Descendants of these foreign nationals will be "Germans with African background". If you want to include only "Germans with African background" in this article, you need to edit quite a bit. Entrance sentence says "Afro-Germans (...) are people of Sub-Saharan Africa descent who are citizens or residents of Germany" The source of the second sentence bases its entire statistical analysis on exactly the same foreign national numbers that this map uses.

"Afro-Germans are found across Germany, but are mostly situated in larger cities, such as Hamburg, Darmstadt, Frankfurt, Munich, Bremen, Cologne, Mainz and Berlin.[1]"

must be changed to

Foreign nationals from Sub-Saharan countries are found across Germany, but are mostly situated in larger cities, such as Hamburg, Darmstadt, Frankfurt, Munich, Bremen, Cologne, Mainz and Berlin.--Hi, future humans! (talk) 19:33, 7 November 2022 (UTC)[reply]

I didn't say, I only wanted to includy only German citizens, but non-citizens are simply not the same group as Afro-Germans. Rsk6400 (talk) 05:23, 8 November 2022 (UTC)[reply]
Non-citizens are included in the group of Afro-Germans and make up the majority of them. They are as well the only group that is statistically recorded and is therefore used throughout the whole article, starting with the second sentence.--Hi, future humans! (talk) 12:48, 8 November 2022 (UTC)[reply]
Statistically recorded on a local level at least. "Migration Background" was counted the last time in 2011 and since then extrapolated on a national level. Wouldn't trust those numbers very much. The results of the 2022 Zensus should be available in one year--Hi, future humans! (talk) 12:59, 8 November 2022 (UTC)[reply]
How do you know that foreign nationals make up the majority of Afro-Germans ? Even in the absence of sources, WP:OR is simply not permitted here. And WP:Original synthesis isn't permitted either. Rsk6400 (talk) 17:28, 8 November 2022 (UTC)[reply]
I have no official source for that so it is the mentioned Original synthesis, but if the Initiative Schwarzer Deutscher ("Black German Initiative") estimates the total of Black Germans to be about 1,000,000 persons and 450k foreign nationals live in Germany (with around 60k additional naturalized citizens since 2000), combined with the US-American Black foreign nationals they will be over 500,000 which is the majority of the estimated 1,000,000. Also this 1 million number is taken directly from the Mikrozensus. The newspapers and institutions, even the bpb (https://www.bpb.de/system/files/dokument_pdf/APuZ_2022-12_online.pdf on page 26), refer all to the 2020 Afrozensus report (https://afrozensus.de/reports/2020/ page 57) for this number and they just take the 2019 Mikrozensus Migration Background number for the whole African continent, including Morocco, an former Gastarbeiter country. Very unprecise number. If they would've excluded North Africa, which they could've because the Mikrozensus does this (https://www.destatis.de/DE/Themen/Gesellschaft-Umwelt/Bevoelkerung/Migration-Integration/Tabellen/migrationshintergrund-staatsangehoerigkeit-staatengruppen.html) they wouldn't reach 1 million, but 605k and then the 450k foreign nationals are a clear majority. tbh I don't understand why they all say 1 million.--Hi, future humans! (talk) 21:53, 8 November 2022 (UTC)[reply]

References

  1. ^ https://www.rki.de/DE/Content/InfAZ/H/HIVAIDS/Studien/MiSSA/Downloads/Pilotstudie_Mapping.pdf?__blob=publicationFile [bare URL PDF]
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