Talk:Area control center

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Comments[edit]

Are the international ACCs for real? Or are they apples added amongst oranges? Hong Kong is VHHK to my knowledge, not ZHKG. And should't the upper en-route airspace under "Eurocontrol" instead of all these individual countries? HkCaGu 23:57, 13 May 2007 (UTC)[reply]

In reference to the photo under the operations section labeled as "Washington Center controllers at work", the facility is incorrect. The individuals depicted are (or were) Jacksonville Center controllers, and the airspace depicted on the overhead maps is for airspace just north of Tampa FL, which is delegated to Jacksonville Center. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 76.106.156.65 (talk) 15:39, 23 March 2021 (UTC)[reply]

Street Addresses of US ARTCCs[edit]

WhisperToMe and I have different takes on whether street addresses should be included for ARTCCs in the United States. Does anybody feel either way? HkCaGu (talk) 17:30, 12 February 2008 (UTC)[reply]

ACCs & VFR Flights[edit]

The article begins with definition: "In air traffic control, an Area Control Center (ACC), also known as a Center, is a facility responsible for controlling instrument flight rules aircraft en route in a particular volume of airspace (a Flight Information Region) at high altitudes between airport approaches and departures."

What is the base for claim, that ACC controls specially IFR flights? Based on icao docs and reality, ACC controls also every VFR flight performed in moderated airspace between airfields (outside of CTR/TMA), at least in whole Europe... So why the acticle highligts IFR flights even there is NO difference between the control of IRF and VFR flights? --82.130.34.49 (talk) 06:26, 3 December 2008 (UTC)[reply]

What is FIR?[edit]

This article mentions FIR but it does not define what that is.

Fixed. HkCaGu (talk) 17:01, 18 September 2009 (UTC)[reply]

ATC[edit]

Why an Air traffic controller is one of the hardest job in the world? —Preceding unsigned comment added by 202.131.234.76 (talk) 13:17, 20 August 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Requested move 2 February 2019[edit]

The following is a closed discussion of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on the talk page. Editors desiring to contest the closing decision should consider a move review after discussing it on the closer's talk page. No further edits should be made to this section.

The result of the move request was: Not Moved (non-admin closure). Xain36 (talk) 09:04, 23 February 2019 (UTC)[reply]

– Request better names of main article and supporting list of examples, consistent with Category:Air traffic control centers. "Area control center" is vague, and does not properly suggest this is about air traffic control. Note, this relates to discussion at Talk:List of Area Control Centers and two recent AFDs about examples. Doncram (talk) 22:22, 2 February 2019 (UTC)--Relisted. –Ammarpad (talk) 09:40, 10 February 2019 (UTC)--Relisting. Warm Regards, ZI Jony ^(Talk) 17:46, 16 February 2019 (UTC)[reply]

Ping User:Reywas92 and User:Roysmith. --Doncram (talk) 22:22, 2 February 2019 (UTC)[reply]

Actually maybe this could have been just a technical move request, I don't think this is controversial. Note that the main article was named "Area Control Center" and was moved by uncontested technical move request to "Area control center" previously. --Doncram (talk) 03:55, 4 February 2019 (UTC)[reply]

Changing capitalization isn't controversial, but changing scope (intentionally or unintentionally) is controversial. SnowFire (talk) 20:31, 4 February 2019 (UTC)[reply]

Oppose, but suggest En-route air traffic control center as move target instead. The proposed move target is too generic and seems like it should include ATCs at airports as well, which doesn't appear to be in scope of the current article. I've always heard these referred to as "en-route" centers as the common name, and Air_traffic control#En_route, center, or_area_control seems to agree with that. SnowFire (talk) 20:10, 4 February 2019 (UTC)[reply]

Hi, Snowfire, thanks for commenting. I don't get the distinction you are trying to make. Air traffic control is divvied up by air volumes. Some/many (most?) airports do not have a separate air traffic control center, but rather their traffic is handled by a faraway center. To be clear, there is no one handling air traffic at many airports, but rather the air traffic control is handled by faraway controllers. An approaching plane may perhaps radio ahead to their airline terminal that they are on approach, 15 miles out or whatever, but that is just to give them info, not to ask permission, which is instead provided by ATC far away. The list in my view should be a list of notable air traffic control centers, which I guess can include independent air traffic control centers that cover just the airspace of one specific airport, though maybe we will want to limit it to larger such examples. The section in Air traffic control article that you link to includes: En-route air traffic controllers work in facilities called air traffic control centers, each of which is commonly referred to as a "center". Which seems to support "air traffic control center" as the valid term to use.

About your "!vote", you seem to agree that there should be a change, i.e. that "area control center" is vague and needs improvement, so I think we are at least partway agreeing already. About "En-route air traffic control center", though, I have never heard that phrase, while "air traffic control center" is a common phrase, and I think we can/should have a list about notable ones. --Doncram (talk) 21:00, 4 February 2019 (UTC)[reply]

If you're not familiar with the distinction I'm making, then please read the Air traffic control article. In short: ATC for takeoffs, landings, and immediately afterward at major airports are handled by the airport's tower (the "Air traffic control tower" section of the article). After they're away from the airport, planes are handed off to en-route centers, which they might switch between several on longer flights, then they switch back to the ATC of the arriving airport. Note the image at the start of this article, which is a map of the various zones. You'll notice that this is a subarticle / split-off of Air_traffic control#En_route, center, or_area_control, and that section is only covering the en-route centers, not every ATC ever (aka not those in airports). SnowFire (talk) 21:11, 4 February 2019 (UTC)[reply]

I am not offended, but you seem not to be acknowledging that many (perhaps most?) airports DO NOT HAVE ATC at their location, but rather their control is from an ATC faraway. For example, landings and takeoffs at regional commercial airports such as GUC, EGE, MTJ in Colorado are controlled by ATC in Denver (I think but am not sure by Denver airport ATC not some separate "en-route" ATC located in Denver). These are commercial airports with American Airlines, Delta Airlines, United Airlines flights including 737s. --Doncram (talk) 02:26, 9 February 2019 (UTC)[reply]

This has nothing to do with anything. Yes, some small airports don't have their own ATC, but that doesn't matter. The point is, there is an international network of ATCs designed for "in the middle" flying after departure but before arrival. That is what this article is about. SnowFire (talk) 03:53, 10 February 2019 (UTC)[reply]

I do agree with your point that "area control center" isn't very obvious to readers about what this article is about, hence preferring some variant that includes "air traffic control". It just needs to be more specific than "Air traffic control center", whether it be "En-route air traffic control center", "Area air traffic control center", "Air route traffic control center" (which appears to be the FAA website blessed term - see https://www.faa.gov/about/office_org/headquarters_offices/ato/service_units/air_traffic_services/artcc/ ), whatever. SnowFire (talk) 21:20, 4 February 2019 (UTC)[reply]

So, I did some more poking. Not a fan of "air route traffic control center" which appears to be the US/Canada only term. List of Area Control Centers seems to imply that lots of the international centers that serve FIRs use "ACC", but I can't really find any evidence of that, either - the Australia page simply called them "Brisbane Centre" and "Melbourne Centre" for example ( http://www.airservicesaustralia.com/about/our-facilities/air-traffic-service-centres/ ). ICAO's website is garbage so wasn't much more help. I'm inclined to think that "en-route" is still probably the clearest and most internationally-relevant term, but if there's evidence "Area" is the official blessed international version, then maybe a variant on the current title isn't so bad after all. (Basically preference 1, En-route air traffic control center, preference 2 that could be upgraded if someone can offer good sources, Area air traffic control center.) SnowFire (talk) 00:19, 5 February 2019 (UTC)[reply]

I am not a fan of "en-route". All planes in motion are "en-route". ATC is ATC. Maybe there are big "en-route" ones not at airports which should be included in the list, and only some ATCs at airports should be included. I don't want to have one list-article about notable "en-route" ATC and another List of "non-enroute" air traffic control centers. What would you even call them. How would you classify ATCs that both handle takeoffs and landings at one or more airports, and also handle air traffic through their area; would you list those in both list-articles? I don't think we are ready for a split yet. --Doncram (talk) 02:26, 9 February 2019 (UTC)[reply]

Just to be clear, I did not make up the term "en-route" center. It's (one of) the term(s) that the aviation field uses, and it doesn't have to be what Wikipedia editors like: See this Google Books search on "en-route air traffic control". You also don't seem to understand that I didn't make up this distinction between types of ATCs, either. Some ATCs but not all are "area control" or "en-route", it's easily checkable and sourceable which are.

As a side comment , I think List of Area Control Centers and Flight information region have the same information at the moment, so they can probably be merged. SnowFire (talk) 03:53, 10 February 2019 (UTC)[reply]

Support moving the list to a lower-case title. Primergrey (talk) 00:35, 17 February 2019 (UTC)[reply]
Support moving to "Air traffic control center" and "List of air traffic control centers". The title "Area control center" is too vague. Control what? "Air traffic" is a standard phrase and properly identifies what the center is controlling. Other terms, such as En route control center (which is acceptable, but possibly less recognizable for international readership as an article title), ARTCC, etc. have been or can be created as Redirects, so users don't have trouble finding these articles. For local control facilties, the term control tower or air traffic control tower is common, and the distinction between air traffic control "center" and air traffic control "tower" is clear, in my opinion. Proposal seems like a very straightforward nomenclature improvement. DonFB (talk) 06:48, 17 February 2019 (UTC)[reply]
Oppose Area control center/centre is both the most common term for the facilities this article covers and also the official term adopted by ICAO, the UN regulatory body for civil aviation. This makes "area control centre" the WP:COMMONNAME and thus the best choice. Here's how the US FAA's pilot/controller glossary defines the term (p. 13-14 of PDF file), which includes ICAO in brackets to indicate that is an official international term adopted by ICAO:

AREA CONTROL CENTER [ICAO]− An air traffic control facility primarily responsible for ATC services being provided IFR aircraft during the en route phase of flight. The U.S. equivalent facility is an air route traffic control center (ARTCC).

I think the current title also matches the precision, conciseness, & recognizability criteria at WP:NAMINGCRITERIA. As for being vague, the title doesn't need to include "air traffic" or "aeronautical" since it is at a reasonably common name. Just considering the links in the article, Procedural control, Tower en route control, and Radar control don't really convey that the subjects deal with air traffic. AHeneen (talk) 12:07, 17 February 2019 (UTC)[reply]

Oppose a "center" that controls "air traffic" exists in many other situations besides the area control center, such as NORAD's all North America Air Defense Command, the air traffic control tower in an airport, approach control, ground control, etc. exist in centers around an airport, in or outside of towers. These are area control centres, so should have "area" in their name somewhere. -- 70.51.201.106 (talk) 06:34, 23 February 2019 (UTC)[reply]

The above discussion is preserved as an archive of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on this talk page or in a move review. No further edits should be made to this section.