Talk:Ashes (Celine Dion song)

Yanis Marshall as the dancer?

Why is this not mentioned in the article? There a multiple features citing Yanis Marshall and his dancing in heels ability as a feature for the video. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 24.6.244.65 (talk • contribs) 00:37, 5 May 2018 (UTC)

French charts

@Ss112: Yeah, this week, "Ashes" is #14 on the Downloads Chart and #148 on the Downloads+Streaming Chart. However, Downloads+Streaming Chart is not really the Overall Chart. Lescharts.com and chartsinfrance.net publish also official Sales Chart, which includes downloads, CD singles and vinyl singles. The Downloads+Streaming Chart does not include CD/Vinyl singles, which is very odd. Anyway, on the Sales Chart "Asches" is #15. I would go with this number - it will also be the number for the template when they'll update lescharts.com. Link to the current chart is here: http://www.chartsinfrance.net/charts/singles.php (Mylene Farmer's vinyl single makes it #15 and not #14 like on the Downloads chart only). -- Max24 (talk) 15:08, 14 May 2018 (UTC)

@Max24: CD and vinyl singles, even in France, would be very small numbers. I don't know why you don't consider a chart that includes the two main ways in which the public consumes music, streaming and downloads, to be the main chart. That is what SNEP considers the overall chart; I don't think a chart ruling out streams when all modern charts include this metric makes it the overall one. Lescharts.com does not replicate exactly what the downloads chart shows (it never has), and I don't consider lescharts.com's limited statistics the overall chart—I never have. I only use it out of convenience as an archive due to the smaller amount of bytes a template uses instead of a long SNEP ref being stuck on a page forever. I also don't think chartsinfrance.net is showing the "overall" chart either (it may be accepted as a source, but that doesn't mean their chart is the "official" chart). An overall chart would display all ways in which songs are consumed in France. I don't have a problem with showing one chart or the other, but let's not pretend like downloads only is the overall chart, because it's not. Ss112 07:08, 18 May 2018 (UTC)

@Ss112: I mostly agree. I just don't like double standards. Other artists discographies or articles, even from the last few months include French peaks from charts, where it charted higher. I'm talking about singles and albums too. That's why, I'm going to do the same, just as lescharts.com will be updated - I will add #15. I don't know why Smith/Sheeran/Farmer and many others can do that, but Dion can't. Physical singles sales is small, true, but for example Farmer last month has sold over 11,000 copies of her vinyl single in one week, which is a big number. And SNEP did not add this to this so-called by you "overall" chart. How can it be "overall" if it does not include "all" sales? That's a mistake by SNEP and there's no need to defend it. Othere re-issues of Farmer old singles on vinyl also sold many copies, but could not chart on streaming+downloads chart. That being said, we can't even make lescharts chart a component chart, becuse it's just a different kind of chart: lescharts includes overall sales and snep includes streaming+downloads only. And by the way, lescharts (and also chartsinfrance) also take this chart from snep, it's also an official chart. Other countries started adding straming to sales, true, but not to partial sales. If you're going to go through all the articles on Wiki and change positions to the downloads+straming chart since it was created 2 years ago, I won't oppose here. But the French market was the same a year ago or few months back, yet you have used lescharts anyway. At the end I would say, snep sucks :), don't you agree? Cheers :)-- Max24 (talk) 09:48, 18 May 2018 (UTC)

What do you mean "double standards"? I don't add French peaks anymore anyway. I don't have double standards. Of course fans (like yourself in this instance) would prefer higher peaks for the artists they like, hence your preference for lescharts.com. But I think you're confused. Lescharts.com is not the overall chart and never has been. So it (and chartsinfrance.net) takes physical copies into account. So what? Neither are official chart providers. Fair enough if you want to "prefer" them, but how do you think lescharts is the overall chart? It does not take streaming into account. If it did, Dion would absolutely not be No. 15. Her downloads were obviously quite large to be at No. 15 on that chart, but with today's massive streaming numbers taken into account, she was No. 145. How else do you account for that big drop? It's the same case with Australia: "Ashes" was 23 digitally, but couldn't even make the top 100 overall. Also, 11,000 is not a lot at all compared to streams, and Dion doesn't have that excuse in this instance because she didn't release a CD or vinyl single for "Ashes", so the Mylene Farmer example is pretty irrelevant. Sorry Max, but I think you're lying to yourself if you're going to pretend streaming isn't the main method people consume music in France and pretty much everywhere else in the Western world, and if you believe Dion was No. 15 "overall" with a promo song for Deadpool 2 that was not very successful anywhere else. This is not a matter of my "belief" versus yours, it's what SNEP considers the overall chart. It's called the "megafusion" chart for a reason, and it's bolded on SNEP's website while telecharges/downloads is listed below, separately. Lescharts.com is just an archive Wikipedia considers valid, that's why I'm not opposing you adding it. Besides, it doesn't really matter if you or anybody doesn't like what SNEP considers the overall chart, it's the official chart provider of France. Also, you're saying it "sucks" but yet it's still the provider of the primarily downloads chart you prefer (it's what lescharts.com and chartsinfrance.net base their data off), so it evidently can't "suck" that much if you're still relying on it. I don't care anymore about what peak you want to have on the page for Dion's latest single, just don't pretend lescharts.com is the overall chart because it's cold hard fact that it's not. Ss112 16:57, 20 May 2018 (UTC)

Also, the only reason she's No. 1 in Quebec is because that appears to be a sales chart as well. I'd really like to see what she was overall there specifically. Probably comparable to that overall Canadian No. 72. Ss112 17:00, 20 May 2018 (UTC)

@Ss112: Hi, I don't know any Quebec chart with streaming. ADISQ is not publishing it. If it exists, it's not for the public. ADISQ is publishing sales and radio charts for singles and also albums chart. She's #1 on radio and sales, but that's her home :) I miss times when charts did not include streaming :) By the way, I think there may be also another issue in the future as we add sales (real sales if we have a source) in certification tables but the industry started publishing sales with streaming as these numbers look good, especially for younger artists. P.S. You're from Australia? Maybe you could stream Dion's new single a little, just that it could chart at the bottom of the main Australian chart? :) Just joking :) -- Max24 (talk) 20:49, 20 May 2018 (UTC)

Big changes

@Max24: Could you please explain your ridiculous edits? When somebody gives a big overhaul of a page, vastly improving it, you need more to revert those changes than just preferring the way it was before. Why are you insisting on have a redundant second release section, when that information is already covered? Why are you insisting on using a non-standard date format that no English-speaking user would use in real life? Why are you insisting on spelling the artist's name incorrectly, against the usage in the reliable sources provided in the article? - adamstom97 (talk) 06:39, 29 May 2018 (UTC)

@Adamstom.97: I do it the way you want it. Now, I'm improving your version. Are there mistakes? yes. I write them in edit summary. Release section is in many articles in Wiki. Why somebody has the read all the article body that has many info now, to get that, instead of just going straight to the release section? It also includes AC, HotAC and Italian release info which is not dulicated anywhere else. Per Wikipedia guidelines, you use the date format that was in the article since the beginning. And for your information, this format is used in Canada. Why not Céline? Because the Wikipedia article is called Celine, per consensus. Dion's English albums also have covers with her name Celine without é. And referring to your last commentary "Don't complain about other editors' mistakes when you clearly don't know what you are doing" - I pointed out that Raynolds also stars in the video which you have overlooked in the lead. You have also made other mistakes, like the date release of the remix or "Colombia" or others. - Max24 (talk) 06:39, 29 May 2018 (UTC)

I didn't say I haven't made any mistakes, I just don't appreciate your tone in trying to turn me into some sort of bad guy when I have just vastly improved this article. If that release table really must be included, then it should be in the release section that is already there and not in a second release section - that just doesn't make any sense. And it doesn't matter what the name of the Celine Dion Wikipedia article is, this article should be based on the reliable sources provided not other Wikipedia articles. - adamstom97 (talk) 07:04, 29 May 2018 (UTC)

@Adamstom.97: I don't appreciate your tone either Adam. So, if you can tone it down, I hope we could work on it together and make "Ashes" a better article. Max24 (talk) 09:09, 29 May 2018 (UTC)

I don't want to come across as indignant, I know you have been doing this for a lot longer than me and that you probably have a lot more experience working on music articles (I mostly work on film articles myself), but I do want this article to be the best it can be and I don't want to be fighting you to do that. Let's start with the date format: I know convention is to stick to the original one used, but that can be changed with agreement at the talk page. My biggest reasoning for changing the format, beyond the fact that I have never seen it used outside of Wikipedia and always see it quickly changed to the format I was using at any other page on my watchlist, is that this article (in my opinion) is a child article of Deadpool 2 (soundtrack), which is itself a child article of Deadpool 2. In many ways, I feel that we should be consistent across those pages, especially if they were to be nominated for a good topic together at some point in which case there should be uniform styling across them all. So again I would ask that this format be changed to the May 29, 2018 format (for example), if for nothing else then to be consistent with the other Deadpool 2 pages. - adamstom97 (talk) 07:17, 29 May 2018 (UTC)

@Adamstom.97: OK, I want to show you that I also care for Ashes to be a good article. So I won't oppose if you change the date format. However, I don't think it would be a problem in the future nomination for the "good article" - there is always a discussion before, and you fix the things per reviewers suggestions. This date format was used because Dion is Canadian and her other articles also use it. By the way, this is also British style and UK artist also use it. But if you want to go with the child article of Deadpool 2 (soundtrack) (American style), please do so. :) Max24 (talk) 09:29, 29 May 2018 (UTC)

Cool. I'm glad everything has calmed down now. I am happy to discuss any part of the article moving forward (though I think we can both feel free to just go ahead and fix up any minor mistakes we find). - adamstom97 (talk) 07:43, 29 May 2018 (UTC)