Talk:Assassination of Wallenstein

This is the talk page for discussing improvements to the Assassination of Wallenstein article.
This is not a forum for general discussion of the article's subject.

Put new text under old text. Click here to start a new topic.
New to Wikipedia? Welcome! Learn to edit; get help.

Article policies

Find sources: Google (books · news · scholar · free images · WP refs) · FENS · JSTOR · TWL

Austria Low‑importance

	Austria portal This article is within the scope of WikiProject Austria, an attempt to build a comprehensive and detailed guide to articles about Austria on Wikipedia. If you would like to participate, please join the project.AustriaWikipedia:WikiProject AustriaTemplate:WikiProject AustriaAustria articles
Low	This article has been rated as Low-importance on the project's importance scale.

Czech Republic Low‑importance

	Czech Republic portal This article is within the scope of WikiProject Czech Republic, a collaborative effort to improve the coverage of the Czech Republic on Wikipedia. If you would like to participate, please visit the project page, where you can join the discussion and see a list of open tasks.Czech RepublicWikipedia:WikiProject Czech RepublicTemplate:WikiProject Czech RepublicCzech Republic articles
Low	This article has been rated as Low-importance on the project's importance scale.

Biography: Military

	Biography portal This article is within the scope of WikiProject Biography, a collaborative effort to create, develop and organize Wikipedia's articles about people. All interested editors are invited to join the project and contribute to the discussion. For instructions on how to use this banner, please refer to the documentation.BiographyWikipedia:WikiProject BiographyTemplate:WikiProject Biographybiography articles
	This article is supported by the military biography work group (assessed as Low-importance).

Military history: Biography / European / German / Early Modern

This article is within the scope of the Military history WikiProject. If you would like to participate, please visit the project page, where you can join the project and see a list of open tasks. To use this banner, please see the full instructions.Military historyWikipedia:WikiProject Military historyTemplate:WikiProject Military historymilitary history articles

This article has been checked against the following criteria for B-class status:
Referencing and citation: criterion met Coverage and accuracy: criterion met Structure: criterion met Grammar and style: criterion met Supporting materials: criterion met

Associated task forces:
/
	Military biography task force
	European military history task force
	German military history task force
	Early Modern warfare task force (c. 1500 – c. 1800)

Event name[edit]

Greetings, all. I respectfully suggest that the current title, i.e. "bloodbath", is sensationalist and entirely inadequate in terms of numbers of victims. A typical title such as "massacre" would seem to be more appropriate. Opinions? (Pinging: Catlemur, Gronk Oz, PaleoNeonate, Norden1990, Aarp65, Chris the speller, GELongstreet, The Banner). -The Gnome (talk) 11:56, 25 February 2022 (UTC)[reply]

Support None of the (English-language) sources supports the term "bloodbath" but two of them call is a massacre. The Banner talk 12:29, 25 February 2022 (UTC)[reply]
Comment - No objection from me, one source calls it "End of Wallenstein", other possible terms would be assassinations, purge... On the other hand various Google search results use bloodbath, I've not checked if they were written after this WP article, but it's possibly one of the common ways to refer to it. The best way to determine WP:COMMONNAME would be with a list of English sources and how they call it... —Paleo Neonate – 14:45, 25 February 2022 (UTC)[reply]

Thanks for the input, PaleoNeonate. Most online searches seem to return Wikipedia mirror texts. -The Gnome (talk) 10:33, 26 February 2022 (UTC)[reply]

Sensationalist in what sense? It is taken directly from Wilson's Europe's Tragedy: A New History of the Thirty Years War. I am fine with moving it to Assassination of Wallenstein if people disagree.--Catlemur (talk) 15:02, 25 February 2022 (UTC)[reply]

No need to get upset. I have just ordered the book you named at the library so I can check it. Will be in I guess next week but we are not in a hurry to decide about renaming. The Banner talk 16:03, 25 February 2022 (UTC)[reply]

No need to wait a week when you can see it here.--Catlemur (talk) 16:36, 25 February 2022 (UTC)[reply]

Tried that link and it did not convince me. I prefer the book in my hands. The Banner talk 17:15, 25 February 2022 (UTC)[reply]

This is a link to the book you are about to receive, but if you think that I hacked Google Books to win a petty argument on Wikipedia that's fine by me.--Catlemur (talk) 18:21, 25 February 2022 (UTC)[reply]

That is not what I said. The Banner talk 19:00, 25 February 2022 (UTC)[reply]

Thanks for the input, Catlemur. "Sensationalist" in terms of an encyclopaedic lemma's title. In a book chapter's title or a scholarly work's it seems fine. (I happen to have Wilson's seminal book and can verify that, under the chapter "Without Custavus 1633-34", there is the sub-chapter about the killing we discuss, titled "The Eger Bloodbath.") But having it in the title of a Wikipedia article verges on advocacy. "Assassination of Wallenstein" sounds better since it rightly shifts the focus from the place to the event. -The Gnome (talk) 10:33, 26 February 2022 (UTC)-The Gnome (talk) 10:33, 26 February 2022 (UTC)[reply]

Comment - I am with PaleoNeonate: if we can identify a commonly used name, we should use that.--Gronk Oz (talk) 16:52, 25 February 2022 (UTC)[reply]

Note Here is a truly small sample of sources in which the episode is denoted by the term Assassination of Wallenstein. The results run in the hundreds, while, it must be noted, the term "bloodbath" appears in few texts besides the Wilson book, which mostly represent Wikipedia mirrors :

•This well known engraving carries the title Die Ermordung von Albrecht von Wallenstein (The Assassination of Albrecht von Wallenstein).

•Rawson Gardiner, Samuel (2010) [1887]. "Section IV. - Assassination of Wallenstein". The thirty years' war, 1618-1648. ‎ Nabu Press. p. 175. ISBN 978-1172183203. Retrieved 26 February 2022.

•Cramer, Kevin (2010). The Thirty Years' War and German Memory in the Nineteenth Century. ‎ University of Nebraska Press. p. 97, 101-3, 131, 135, 140, 202, 274. ISBN 978-0803232693. Retrieved 26 February 2022. Meuchelmord (assassination)

•Horsbroch, Dauvit (2001). Murdoch, Steve (ed.). Scotland and the Thirty Years' War, 1618-1648. ‎ Brill. p. 35, 66, 238, 260. ISBN 978-9004120860. Retrieved 26 February 2022.

•Rosner, Lisa; Theibault, John (2000). "Assassination of Wallenstein". A Short History of Europe, 1600-1815: Search for a Reasonable World. ‎ Taylor & Francis Group. ISBN 978-0765603272.

•Mortimer, Geoff (2010). "Assassination is the quickest way". Wallenstein: The Enigma of the Thirty Years War. Palgrave Macmillan. pp. 224–40. ISBN 978-0230272132.

One could go on for hours. -The Gnome (talk) 15:37, 26 February 2022 (UTC)[reply]

Proceeding with change to "Assassination of Wallenstein" within this week, per naming conventions, unless significant objections are raised]]. I'll add that, according to most notable historians of the period, the death/assassination of Wallenstein, in itself, has been a very significant event of the Thirty Year War. -The Gnome (talk) 09:59, 1 March 2022 (UTC)[reply]