Talk:Bahiyyih Nakhjavani

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status as a Baha'i[edit]

While she has authored many books and articles related to the religion, and she is the daughter of Ali Nakhjavani there is available for citation apparently no reference to her status as a Baha'i. Any citable source should be made available.--Smkolins (talk) 00:10, 28 December 2007 (UTC)[reply]

best I can find is [1] which states she was born into a Baha'i family....--Smkolins (talk) 00:29, 28 December 2007 (UTC)[reply]

If you go to Amazon and look for her book The Saddlebag, and then click on the image of the book and look through the sample pages, the last page is the back cover of the book, showing her photo, and it states that she lectures internationally on the Baha'i Faith. Brent Poirier. 24.63.162.219 (talk) —Preceding comment was added at 15:21, 8 July 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Good detail but not enough to say she is a member of the Bahá'í Faith. Seems obvious - daughter of a very well known Baha'i, writes on Baha'i themes, lectures on the Baha'i Faith.... but no simple statements of being a Baha'i or how being a Baha'i has affected her. She has the right not to but until she does somewhere citable, it's a barrier to citation in Wikipedia as I see things.--Smkolins (talk) 20:45, 9 July 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Deleting part of the article[edit]

Hello, User:LouisAragon. Can l learn that why did you delete some part of article ?

Actually I restored most of it with alittle cleanup. The bit of Iranian vs Azerbaijani needs a lot more sourcing. I know sources can make broad strokes of Iranian status considering the old "greater persia" of years gone by but it needs more sourcing to be clear about it.Smkolins (talk) 22:25, 25 July 2021 (UTC)[reply]
@Smkolins:
The sentence.

"Although originally from Nakhchivan, her father Ali Nakhjavani was born in 1919 in the Shuvalan settlement of Baku, the capital of the Azerbaijan Democratic Republic. Ali Nakhchivani, whose mother is Palestinian, moved to Palestine after the death of his father, and after growing up there, he went to Uganda in 1951 to spread the Bahá'í Faith"

...is not verified by the reference you reinstated (i.e. fails WP:VER).[2]
Likewise, this sentence:

Ali Nakhjavani's father, Ali Akbar Nakhcivani, was from Ordubad, Nakhchivan district of Azerbaijan.

Is sourced to an Azerbaijani-language source. Do you speak Azerbaijani or do we, on the English Wikipedia, need to use Google translate?[3]
The next sentence you reinstated:

Although originally from Nakhchivan, her father Ali Nakhjavani was born in 1919 in the Shuvalan settlement of Baku, the capital of the Azerbaijan Democratic Republic. Ali Nakhchivani, whose mother is Palestinian, moved to Palestine after the death of his father, and after growing up there, he went to Uganda in 1951 to spread the Bahá'í Faith

...likewise fails WP:VER as far as I can see.[4]
"I know sources can make broad strokes of Iranian status considering the old "greater persia" of years gone by but it needs more sourcing to be clear about it"
Do you have sources that attest to this? When I type "Bahiyyih Nakhjavani Iranian" in Google News, I get numerous hits, and not a single mention of supposedly greater persia/greater Iran narratives.[5] Yet when I type "Bahiyyih Nakhjavani Azerbaijan", "Bahiyyih Nakhjavani Azerbaijani" and "Bahiyyih Nakhjavani Azeri" I get zero hits.
- LouisAragon (talk) 08:29, 26 July 2021 (UTC)[reply]
Thanks LouisAragon. I'll work on addressing these issues. I hope User:Qızılbaş also chimes in. On the last one point if you see Azerbaijan#Contemporary_history you'll see this is fairly new history and that at the time of her fathers birth t was part of what was then Persia/Iran, traditionally part of Greater_Iran, but had just Declaration of Independence (Azerbaijan) declared independence from Iran and then much of his life it was part of the Soviet Union which devolved to Russia but then gained indepdence again. Geopolitically its a complicated history. I'm agreeing that any formal statement should be supported for this article to reference all that more than a "see also" kind of link or set of links to those kinds of articles. Smkolins (talk) 14:04, 26 July 2021 (UTC)[reply]
I'm unfamiliar, but what did they claim to be? If she considered herself of Iranian heritage then that is an easy way to settle this. Cuñado ☼ - Talk 17:11, 26 July 2021 (UTC)[reply]

I think I've addressed most of the other issues but this aspect of Iranian vs Azerbaijani I've left alone. I see lots of information on those wikipedia articles closely dating a lot of details of shifting definitions of who is Iranian and who is Azerbaijani but I think it's too much to go into here unless some source really went at it. Most sources call her Iranian though I see little from her own lips saying what she is perse but I will add some of the above to the "See also". Smkolins (talk) 17:43, 26 July 2021 (UTC)[reply]

Thanks for comments. Bahiyyih's grandfather, Ali Akbar, is from Ordubad, Nakhchivan, and I wrote that he was of Azerbaijani origin. You can see it in their surnames. Isn't that right? This is not a topic for discussion here, but I am concerned about the behavior of the Greater Persians here (about to accept Iran as a nation-state since the 15th century). His grandfather was born in Nakhchivan in 1865, but he is still considered Iranian. If she said that "I am Iranian", I have nothing to say.

In addition, it would be good if the approach to Azerbaijan was resolved in the context of Greater Iran / Persia. Azerbaijan did not appear here suddenly, it is the successor of the Turks who moved to the region since the 11th century.--Qızılbaş (talk) 06:47, 27 July 2021 (UTC)[reply]

Wikipedia articles can't be used as sources per WP:WINARS and WP:CIRCULAR. Only the sources cited within articles can be used as reliable sources. If there are reliable sources that attest to these claims, by all means, provide them, and no one will object.
  • "You can see it in their surnames. Isn't that right?"
According to the same logic, François Hollande would be a Dutchman in France. His surname says "Hollande" after all. Thus we should also add Category:French people of Dutch descent to his article. Similarly, every person with the surname "van Hessen" in the Netherlands would be a German expat, rather than a Dutch person of some sort of German descent. Using such bizarre rationale means we should deliberately assign undue weight to purported purported descent over reliable sources. For one I could care less if sources refer to her as Iranian, Martian, Azerbaijani, or Papuan, but we write Wikipedia using reliable sources, not self-interpreted WP:OR. If reliable sources refer to "Bahiyyih Nakhjavani" as Iranian, we will write Iranian. The rest of her background and place of origin of her father and gradfather can be thoroughly explained in the body of the article accompanied by proper sources.
  • "Azerbaijan did not appear here suddenly, it is the successor of the Turks who moved to the region since the 11th century."
That's another load of WP:OR. The word "Azerbaijan" has existed since a long period of time, but it only referred to the region below the Aras river. It has nothing do with being "the succssor of the Turks who move to the region since the 11th century". The country nowadays known as "Azerbaijan" appropriated and took this name in the 20th century from the adjacent Iranian region of Azerbaijan, starting in 1918. So yeah, the designation for the area to the north of the Aras "did" somewhat appear "suddenly". For more information refer to the reliable sources cited within Azerbaijan#Etymology, Azerbaijan (toponym) and Azerbaijan Democratic Republic. Furthermore, since the 20th century there's a long-standing effort at creating a distortion of the historical record within the territory that nowadays comprises Azerbaijan, in relation to Iran (and Armenia) (see; Historical_negationism#Azerbaijan). In numerous aspects its similar to the North Macedonia-Greece issue. Lastly, I would like to add that user "Qızılbaş" has been warned in the past[6] for being cautious while editing within WP:AA2, which would include this very article. Spreading original research on a WP:AA2 related talk page is unacceptable. - LouisAragon (talk) 12:46, 27 July 2021 (UTC)[reply]
I did not say he is Azerbaijani, I said he is coming from Azerbaijani origin. These are different things. Please do not change the context of my words.

- According to the same logic, François Hollande would be a Dutchman in France. His surname says "Hollande" after all. - The note about the surname was made to make my point clearer. If it is known that a person's ancestors came from another place, this should be noted. For example, Donald Trump, Antoine Griezmann and Olivier Giroud are from different countries. However, this does not prevent them from being American and French. And I would like to add that in the articles about Seyed Hassan Taghizadeh, Khamenei, Ahmad Kasravi was noted their origins. I gave examples from different geographies and people from different fields to make the issue clear.

- Thank you for providing information on the history of Azerbaijan, but I have not learned anything new.

- I don't think I broke any rules. I have seen other articles mentioning people's origins, and I wanted to help by doing so.

- User:LouisAragon do you agree to edit this article as a Iranian from Azerbaijani origin ? --Qızılbaş (talk) 06:52, 29 July 2021 (UTC)[reply]

Information about her paternal origins from Azerbaijan is already mentioned in the body of the article. I just added the category "Iranian people of Azerbaijani descent" to the article in accordance with this, but thats as far as WP:DUE weight goes on this WP:BLP. - LouisAragon (talk) 13:22, 30 July 2021 (UTC)[reply]

collecting sources[edit]

On Ali Nakhjavani[edit]

  • "Voice concern for brothers…". The Pittsburgh Courier. Pittsburgh, Pennsylvania. 9 Feb 1963. p. 16. Retrieved Jul 26, 2021.
  • Arthur Veysey (29 Apr 1963). "10 year goal is exceeded, Baha'is told". Chicago Tribune. Chicago, Illinois. p. 23. Retrieved Jul 26, 2021.
  • "Two members of Universal House of Justice leave after 40 years service". Bahá'í World News Service. Haifa, Israel. April 29, 2003. Retrieved Jul 26, 2021. Mr. Nakhjavani was born into a Baha'i family in 1919 and raised in Haifa. After obtaining a Bachelor of Arts degree with distinction from the American University of Beirut, he moved to Iran, his ancestral home. He was a member of the national governing council of the Baha'is of Iran, the National Spiritual Assembly, in 1950 and 1951. Mr. Nakhjavani and his family then moved to Uganda in order to assist the development of the Baha'i community there. He worked as a teacher and lecturer. From 1954 to 1961, he was an Auxiliary Board member, an adviser to the Baha'i communities on their development and growth. He also served as the chairman of the National Spiritual Assembly of the Baha'is of Central and East Africa from 1956 to 1961. Mr. Nakhjavani moved to Haifa in 1961 after he was elected to the International Baha'i Council, the forerunner to the Universal House of Justice. Mr. Nakhjavani has written numerous articles on aspects of the Baha'i Faith and delivered many talks on its history and teachings. He is married to Mrs. Violette Nakhjavani (nee Banani), and they have two children.
  • Nakhjavani, Ali (2018). Mírzá ʻAlí-Akbar-i-Nak̲h̲javání: with newly translated tablets of ʻAbdu'l-Bahá. Wilmette, Illinois: Bahá'í Publishing. ISBN 9781618511430. OCLC 1080274951.

On Bahiyyih[edit]

  • Noah Bartolucci (9 Feb 1990). "Literature, peace and women: ideas of a Baha'i author". The Daily Tar Heel. Chapel Hill, North Carolina. p. 4. Retrieved Jul 26, 2021. She has a doctorate in English literature from the University of Massachusetts and has taught at York University in Toronto, Canada… has written two books. …
  • Julia Leigh (20 Feb 2000). "Carless stalk costs lives". The Observer London. London, England. p. 107. Retrieved Jul 26, 2021. There are glimpses of a touching tale of human struggle and faith, but these are heavily burried beneath an overly intricate surface.
  • "Mythical fable draws on many faiths". The Atlanta Constitution. Atlanta, Georgia. 25 Nov 2000. p. 22. Retrieved Jul 26, 2021. Nakhjavani draws on her own Baha'i faith as well as Hinduism, Islam, Judaism, Zoroastrianism and Buddhism for the rich backdrop of the novel's events.
  • Nakhjavani, Bahiyyih (1987). "The Spiritual Inheritors". dialogue. Vol. 2, no. 1. Los Angeles. pp. 10–13. OCLC 643748871. Retrieved Jul 26, 2021 – via Bahai-Library.com.
  • Gillert, Sonja (October 29, 2014). "„Möchte die Stimme derer sein, die sprachlos sind"". Die Welt (in German). Germany. Retrieved Jul 26, 2021.
  • See, Carolyn (15 Sep 2000). "The Pilgrims' Progress". The Washington Post. Washington, D.C. p. C2. The author lectures internationally on the Baha'i faith, which has been a powerful voice for communication among all religions. The Saddlebag then, is a novel of initial misunderstandings, then comprehension and finally, perhaps, transcendence.… If there is a downside in all this, it's that The Saddlebag is by definition inspirational prose. When one particular tiresome character, the pilgrim, perceives the scripture of the saddlebag, it tells him that 'the path is straight and the way is narrow even whle it is more spacious….' A little of this prose goes a long way. But most o fthe time the author has mercy on us. The novelist part of her has the preacher part of her under control.… when she keeps to the sandstorms and delusions of our own imperfect Earth.
  • Bahiyyih Nakhjavani (April 25, 2017). Us & Them: Breaking Free from Cultural Branding & Identity Politics (video). Washington, DC: Library of Congress. (She) grew up in Uganda, was educated in the United Kingdom and then in the United States, and now lives in France. She is author of the Women who Read Too Much, which was a book on the poetess and woman leader if you like Tahirih Qurratu'l-Ayn 19th century icon, also she's written The Saddlebag. Her novels have been published in French, Italian, Spanish, German, Greek, Turkish, Hebrew, Russian, Korean and Chinese.
  • Bahiyyih Nakhjavani (April 2, 2015). The Woman Who Read Too Much (video). Washington, DC: Library of Congress. In short, she was born in Iran, but raised in New Ganda(sic) Africa, and has lived in the U.K, the U.S., and is a British citizen, but lives in France right now, and has worked in Canada, Cyprus, Israel, and, of course, Africa. Currently she is teaching English in Paris. … she has several books and publications in French, in Persian, and in English, and, of course, translations in several languages.


Smkolins (talk) 14:10, 26 July 2021 (UTC)[reply]

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