Talk:Baptism with the Holy Spirit

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Good article Baptism with the Holy Spirit has been listed as one of the Philosophy and religion good articles under the good article criteria. If you can improve it further, please do so. If it no longer meets these criteria, you can reassess it.
March 17, 2012 Good article nominee Listed
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Baptism by fire merge[edit]

I see no useful purpose for Baptism by fire to exist, separate from Baptism with the Holy Spirit. I propose that any useful content from that article be moved into this one, and that article be turned into a disambiguation page. - (talk) 16:58, 25 November 2012 (UTC)

Not the same. See [[1]] for concise description. And I'll let a Mormon explain their position on it. --Musdan77 (talk) 05:33, 26 November 2012 (UTC)
Other than the unreferenced first sentence in the lede, which matches the wiktionary definition, the rest of the Baptism by fire article tries to cover the same material as Baptism with the Holy Spirit. That content, if it is seen as valuable, could easily be merged into this article. -- (talk) 15:11, 27 November 2012 (UTC)
I agree with merging at least the History and Mormonism sections into this article. It basically repeats information that is in this article already, while lacking the biblical, historical, comparative context that this article provides. In regard to the History section, it would probably fit in or near the second paragraph of the "Biblical description" section in this article. Ltwin (talk) 01:29, 28 November 2012 (UTC)
  • Support: The passage in Matthew about baptism with spirit and fire is part of the tradition of Christian water baptism, and it is different than the dictionary definition of Baptism by Fire. The fire in view here is the fire of testing. Justin Martyr quotes from an early gospel passage, related to the Western text of Luke, which mentions a fire on the water concurrent with the Holy Spirit descending like a dove during Jesus' baptism, and the fire of testing is also mentioned in poetic verse in one of the Sibylline oracles in the context of baptism (Sib. VI:1-7 "I sing from the heart of the great Son and famous of the Immortal, to whom the Most High, His begetter, gave a throne to take ere He was born; for according to the flesh He was raised up the second time, after He had washed in the stream of the River Jordan, which is borne along on silvery foot, drawing its waves. Who first, escaping from fire, shall see God coming in sweet Spirit, on the white wings of a dove."). Ignocrates (talk) 19:08, 15 December 2012 (UTC)

This proposal to merge seems to have died from a lack of interest. Last call for comments, otherwise, this proposal should be closed and the merge template removed. Ignocrates (talk) 16:49, 8 January 2013 (UTC)

I propose the following as an alternative: 1. move the sections that relate to Baptism with the Holy Spirit and Mormonism to this article. They can be pasted onto the talk page for now. 2. Stubbify the remaining article on Baptism by Fire and include current and possible future usages of that term that do not relate to this article. I think that is preferable to an outright deletion with a redirect to this article. Ignocrates (talk) 16:40, 14 January 2013 (UTC)
  • Oppose evidently a discreet subject in Christian literature, irrespective of any Mormon development of the topic. Removing merge tag as stale/unsupported. In ictu oculi (talk) 02:30, 23 July 2013 (UTC)

Cathar addition[edit]

User:H799646 added the following sub-section entitled "Cathars" to the "Views" section. Given the fact that this is a good article, I thought it appropriate to move this unsourced section here until such time as the original contributor or someone else adds sources. Because the Cathars are a historical movement, I wonder also if this material would be more appropriate in the "History" section?

Consolamentum was the unique sacrament of the Cathars. According to the Albigenses and other Cathars, the consolamentum was a baptism with the Holy Spirit. It implied reception of all spiritual gifts including absolution from sin, spiritual regeneration, and the power to preach and elevation to a higher plane of perfection.

In common with Christianity, Cathars believed in original sin, and, like Gnostics, believed temporal pleasure to be sinful or unwise. The process of living thus inevitably incurred 'regret' that required 'consolation' to move nearer to God or to approach heaven. It occurred only twice in a lifetime: upon confirmation in the faith and upon impending death. It was available to both men and women who made a commitment to the faith.[citation needed] Following the ceremony the consoled individual became a "Cathar Perfect"

Any thoughts? Ltwin (talk) 04:27, 19 June 2013 (UTC)

Also, until such time as sources are added, I have added a link to Consolamentum to the "See also" section. Ltwin (talk) 04:56, 20 June 2013 (UTC)

Reader feedback: Baptism INTO the Holy Spirit[edit] posted this comment on 29 June 2013 (view all feedback).

A clearer mor eaborate teaching of the baptism INTO the Holy Spirit

Any thoughts?

Ltwin (talk) 08:03, 1 July 2013 (UTC)