Talk:Luhansk Oblast campaign

Requested move 24 August 2023

The following is a closed discussion of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on the talk page. Editors desiring to contest the closing decision should consider a move review after discussing it on the closer's talk page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

The result of the move request was: moved to Luhansk Oblast campaign. Consensus that the existing title is relatively obscure and does not clearly indicate the scale of the event; the descriptive title "Luhansk Oblast campaign" was identified as an improvement along both measures. The primary point of contention was whether the date range, "(October 2022–present)", should be appended to the title. Those favouring inclusion argued that the date range was valuable for minimising the risk of confusion, whereas those favouring exclusion noted that including the date range would be unnecessarily WP:PRECISE (as well as less WP:CONCISE). I don't see a clear consensus on whether to include or exclude the date range, but there's a clear consensus against retaining the current title, so I'm going to make a WP:NOTCURRENTTITLE close here; specifically, I've opted to close in favour of excluding the date range, as the argument on that side was more directly grounded in titling policy. (closed by non-admin page mover) ModernDayTrilobite (talk • contribs) 14:54, 8 September 2023 (UTC)

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Battle of the Svatove–Kreminna line → Luhansk Oblast campaign (October 2022–present) – As I brought up at § Name, again, "Battle of the Svatove–Kreminna line" is not a true WP:COMMONNAME. It is only really used by Wikipedia, the Institute for the Study of War, and a handful of war-watchers - and as has been mentioned multiple times on this talk page, the ISW is not consistent with this label, making it unclear whether they actually are trying to designate it as its own distinct battle. Other sources in the article, like these [3][4] Ukrainian government sources, call it the "Kupyansk-Lyman direction", since Kupiansk is the goal of Russian forces in the area. Some of the best Western mainstream media coverage of the battle doesn't make any reference to a "line" [5] [6] and avoid giving it a definitive name at all, instead vaguely referring to a "northeastern front". Almost all of the few sources making reference to a battle on the "Svatove–Kreminna line" are quoting the ISW, who, as I've established, don't treat it as a definitive name either. The point is, the current name is not a common or established name for the battle outside of a few circles.

Therefore, my proposal is to move the article to the more descriptive title of Luhansk Oblast campaign (October 2022–present). I'm basing this naming standard off the one commonly seen in the articles about the Syrian civil war, as I mentioned in earlier talk page discussions. It just objectively describes where - broadly interpreted - and when the battle is taking place, and avoids using niche terminology that seems to be only consistently used by Wikipedia itself. We don't even really explain what the "Svatove–Kreminna line" is in the article.

Admittedly, there's one problem I can see with my proposed title, which is that the campaign is also taking part in some far east portions of Kharkiv Oblast, not just Luhansk Oblast. But I think that's okay, and less of a problem than us calling all of this fighting part of the "Svatove-Kreminna line" when a ton of the most significant fighting is simply not on that line. After all, we have an article called 2022 Kherson counteroffensive, when some of that fighting took place in Mykolaiv Oblast, because the main push was in Kherson. I'm open to suggestions for an alternative descriptive title, but I haven't been able to think of a better one myself. HappyWith (talk) 18:19, 24 August 2023 (UTC)

Notes

• Alternative Luhansk Oblast campaign. Per WP:CONCISE. Also, I don't see an issue with the scope using a broad brush such that the content is not "strictly" limited to within Luhansk Oblast but more generally, the fighting for Luhansk Oblast. Cinderella157 (talk) 23:05, 24 August 2023 (UTC)

  I agree Parham wiki (talk) 23:25, 24 August 2023 (UTC)

I think we should keep the date in the title, to avoid confusion with for example Battle of Donbas (2022–present). Super Dromaeosaurus (talk) 00:01, 26 August 2023 (UTC)

I agree with Super Dro, I think removing the dates would make it seem like it’s covering the action in Luhansk during the entire war. HappyWith (talk) 04:18, 26 August 2023 (UTC)

Per WP:TITLEDAB, disambiguation is only necessary when there is otherwise an actual conflict in article titles. No such conflict in titles exists. Per WP:AT, concision is preferred over unnecessary precision. This is the reason why the year was ultimately removed from Russian invasion of Ukraine. Cinderella157 (talk) 23:11, 26 August 2023 (UTC)

WP:IAR. To me it is obvious that removing the date will result on confusion regarding the scope of the article both for editors and readers. Super Dromaeosaurus (talk) 08:43, 27 August 2023 (UTC)

The lead (modified for the proposed title) might state: The battle of the Svatove–Kreminna line Luhansk Oblast campaign is a series of ongoing military engagements between Russia and Ukraine along a "roughly" 60-mile-long (97 km) frontline running between the towns of Kupiansk, Svatove, and Kreminna in for Luhansk Oblast, northeastern Ukraine during the Russian invasion. The battle began on 2 October 2022, a day after the Ukrainian Army recaptured the nearby city of Lyman. The infobox tells us it is Part of the eastern campaign of the Russian invasion of Ukraine with the dates 2 October 2022 – present. I don't see how removing (October 2022–present) from the article title could reasonably result in confusion regarding the scope of the article both for editors and readers. We have already agreed that spatially, the scope will extend outside the strict limits of Luhansk Oblast (the fighting for Luhansk Oblast), without concern that it will result in confusion regarding the scope of the article both for editors and readers. Why then do we need this temporal precision in the title when it too is/will be defined by the lead? Cinderella157 (talk) 11:23, 27 August 2023 (UTC)

This isn’t related to the date question, but I would actually propose we don’t include any bolded title in the lead, given that there is no common name, and simply lead with something along the lines of “Since October 2022 and the Kharkiv counteroffensive, a campaign has taken place along a 60-km frontline in western parts of Luhansk Oblast and far-eastern parts of Kharkiv Oblast” HappyWith (talk) 16:06, 27 August 2023 (UTC)

HappyWithWhatYouHaveToBeHappyWith, I was simply suggesting how the lead might be modified in light of the move. The point I was making is that the lead defines the scope both temporally and spatially. I am open to the proposal you make as to how the revised lead might actually read. Cinderella157 (talk) 00:41, 28 August 2023 (UTC)

• Strong support I have nothing else to add. The nominator explained their rationale perfectly. Super Dromaeosaurus (talk) 00:01, 26 August 2023 (UTC)

  Likewise. Jebiguess (talk) 03:33, 26 August 2023 (UTC)

• Against it isn't really a campaign, it is a string of skirmishes on a defensive line. Renaming it to the "Luhansk Campaign" implies that Ukraine is making a concerted offensive action to retake the oblast, but all I've read on the front is that they have turned to defensive actions to hold onto their Kharkiv gains. Scu ba (talk) 14:54, 7 September 2023 (UTC)

  it is a string of skirmishes on a defensive line

  This isn't really true, though? Russia has been pushing hard in this area, amassing huge amounts of troops and firing countless shells. Even if it was, the proposed title would still be better than the current one that's completely WP:OR. HappyWith (talk) 02:59, 8 September 2023 (UTC)

The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

Battle of Serebrianka Forest (2022-present)

Regarding name, definition and such. 'The Battle of Serebrianka Forest (2022-present)' perhaps deserves its own page, or at least to be commemorated as an ongoing and long-lasting 'battle' in its own right. Since the Second Battle of Lyman, most of the fiercest fighting in this sector has been in Serebrianka Forest, the mention of which has greater gravitas with Ukrainians than an international audience, because of substandard journalism and the myriad names complicating things (Lyman front; Luhansk Campaign; Kupyansk-Svatove-Kreminna line; Kupyansk-Lyman axis; Lyman-Sievierodonetsk front, etc.) Indeed, with the Battles of Sieverodonetsk and Lysychansk, and the 2022-present fighting in Serebrianka Forest, most people here simply say they're fighting on 'The Lyman front' or in 'Serebryansky Lís'… 'Luhansk Campaign' could be backdated to pre-Second Battle of Lyman, and the battles of Sievierodonetsk and Lysychansk, and the earliest forest fighting.

It muddies the waters to use all these different names, and international journalists regurgitate the same rubbish ad nauseam. This sector is barely covered or known because to our southeast, anything within thirty miles of Bakhmut seems to be called 'Bakhmut'. Plus, even 'the Lyman front', whilst admirably simplified, fails to recognise that Lyman is in Donetsk oblast, on the other side of the forest, whereas the bulk of the ongoing Battle of Serebryansky Lís in its easternmost sectors is in Luhansk oblast.

What you call the 'Luhansk Campaign' predates the Second Battle of Lyman: this whole theatre has been raging since the start of the full-scale. And the forest fighting deserves its own page, really, given scale and ferocity, and how comparative skirmishes are referred to as 'The Battle of…'

The perspective of a participant, not outside onlooker. Slava Ukraini. F.

Oskil river offensive

MANY UKRAINIAN SOURCES, like deepstate, and 3rd assault brigade of AFU. made a statement about the powerful offensive of the Russian Armed Forces near the border of the LPR and the Kharkov region: “The front line of the Third Assault on the border of the Lugansk region with the Kharkov region is today one of the most intense areas of the offensive of Russian troops. Their immediate task is to reach the village of Cherneshchina - Pervomayskoe, with the subsequent capture of the village of Borovaya. SO I ASK TO THE EDITORS TO ADD THIS SECTION TO THE ARTICLE Nicolas taquino ricio (talk) 19:07, 18 June 2024 (UTC)

Infobox content

While I agree that we should be omitting casualty claims or estimates for more recent engagements, this campaign has lasted for almost two years, and the Ukrainians have been releasing regular monthly claims of Russian losses here since at least November, with a gap only between February and March 2024. It's also not unprecedented to have casualty claims and estimates of ongoing battles and campaigns in the infobox, as it’s been done many times, both for this war and others. Just because it's a rule on some other pages does not necessarily mean it's a rule on here, at least not without a prior discussion. Tomissonneil (talk) 05:11, 7 August 2024 (UTC)

WP:ONUS applies. There are good reasons why there is a general consensus that articles in this war do not report casualties in the infobox for ongoing engagements. The infobox is for key facts. Claims of casualties are not facts. An infobox is unsuited for capturing the nuance and detail of conflicting claims, incomplete information and the flux of an ongoing engagement, which is best left to prose. Cinderella157 (talk) 01:38, 9 August 2024 (UTC)

Fighting within Kupiansk, late 2024

Ping @Flemmish Nietzsche, Ping @RadioactiveBoulevardier, Ping @SaintPaulOfTarsus Ping @Cinderella157, Ping @RopeTricks

Just messaging all the frequents editors of the Russo-Ukrainian war. I want to confirm if there are clashes in within the northern part of the city of Kupiansk. I was looking at maps such as DeepState recently and just want to make sure this is correct. Gerald1984 (talk) 12:28, 16 November 2024 (UTC)

Yes, fighting is ongoing within the city, [7] though any dedicated battle article should wait until the clashes are widely covered by media sources. Flemmish Nietzsche (talk) 12:31, 16 November 2024 (UTC)