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Talk:Bob Cooper (rugby league)

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Professional footballer not just a rugby league player

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Bob Cooper is known as and deserves recognition as a professional football athlete and not just a rugby league player, having successfully played both rugby league and Australian rules football. Bob Cooper is best known to many and should be recognized for his success in crossing-over from rugby league to Australian rules football demonstrating his football athleticism beyond a single code. This should be acknowledged in the lede paragraph. To remove this from the lede paragraph is denigrating. The rest of the article makes it clear his primary code was rugby league but Cooper was, first and foremost a tremendous athlete. 115.42.14.118 (talk) 02:45, 21 August 2021 (UTC)[reply]

See WP:MOS. Cooper is not notable for being an AFL player. Fine to include in article, but the lede is for what makes him notable. I'm honestly baffled by your claim that this "denigrating".Doctorhawkes (talk) 23:28, 21 August 2021 (UTC)[reply]

It is denigrating to not include that Cooper played Australian rules football because it diminishes what the lede indicates he is notable for. It diminishes his reputation to being just a rugby league player rather than being a football athlete who played multiple codes. It is evident from the article itself that Doctorhawkes' argument that Cooper in not notable for playing Australian football is nonsense, as the article notes that he played Australian football. Cooper was a footballer athlete who primarily played rugby league. Why should Cooper not be noted as a multi-code footballer?

Doctorhawkes refers to the Wikipedia manual of style but that does not at all validate a narrow POV about what is notable. Both the manual of style and, more significantly, manual of style for the lead section state the lead should be a concise summary. Both words, 'concise' and 'summary', require brevity of detail but also comprehensiveness and plurality of points not just one main point or some, limited hierarchical points. Both the MOS and MOS/Lead indicate that reference to Cooper playing multiple codes should be contained in the lead. In fact, mention of his record suspension from the NSWRL should also be included.

Doctorhawkes confuses Australian football and the AFL but they are different things. The AFL is just one company that operates some Australian football competitions. Similarly, the ARLC, NRL, NSWRL and QRL are not rugby league and the local swimming club or pool operator is not swimming. Such a fundamental mistake suggests insufficient basic knowledge about sport let alone about Cooper and for what he is notable, especially outside some rugby league circles. Let the facts speak for themselves. 115.42.14.118 (talk) 04:22, 22 August 2021 (UTC)[reply]

There's no doubt Cooper played aussie rules. He's just not notable for it because he played at a lower level.
As noted on the Administrators' noticeboard, "the onus is on the editor proposing the change to the status quo", but I'm happy to ask for a WP:3O if you'd like?Doctorhawkes (talk) 08:08, 22 August 2021 (UTC)[reply]

On what basis does Doctorhawkes claim Cooper is not notable for having played Australian Footoball? What source does Doctorhawkes cite? It is not the level at which Cooper played that made it notable. It was Cooper himself that was notable (hence the Wikepedia article) and that made his playing Australian Football notable. That Cooper was a rugby league player who also played Australian Football makes it particularly notable at the time and since. Cooper was unknown to many who did not follow rugby league. To many, particularly in Australian Football circles, at the time and since, Cooper was otherwise unknown but his playing Australian Football made him more widely known. It made news in Sydney/NSW and was in Australian Football reports across the country. Again, on what basis does Doctorhawkes claim Cooper is not notable for having played Australian Football? 115.42.14.118 (talk) 03:24, 24 August 2021 (UTC)[reply]

Cooper is notable for (1) being a footballer. As a rugby league player, he is most notable for (1) having played in the NSWRL and (2) being suspended for a record period. A concise summary of these should be in the introduction. 115.42.14.118 (talk) 04:00, 24 August 2021 (UTC)[reply]

Playing z-grade AFL isn't notable, the only reason any one knows about it is that it seemed to be a fit of pique after being rubbed out for so long.Local Potentate (talk) 06:32, 24 August 2021 (UTC)[reply]

Playing z-grade Australian Football (see above distinction from AFL) is not notable for itself but Cooper is notable (evident by the Wikipedia article) and therefore his playing Australian Football is notable. As discussed above, Cooper is notable for having played Australian Football.115.42.14.118 (talk) 10:16, 24 August 2021 (UTC)[reply]

And it is noted, and was noted before you came along. Playing park AFL isn't not notable enough to call him an AFL player, which the good doctor has already pointed out. Hoppa played union whilst on one of his many sideline stints, didn't make him rugby player. Local Potentate (talk) 05:17, 25 August 2021 (UTC)[reply]

Sport judiciary decisions

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The harshness of Cooper's suspension calls out for detail and even an article on decisions of sport competition judiciaries. Cooper's suspension raises questions about a jealous Has Been amateur or really a Never Was who was milking a good earner and notoriety for himself and his business out of the sport and off the efforts of players like Cooper, who were trying to make a living out of sport. Cooper had invested many years in the sport and, as a player with a young family, the investment and risks were even more acute. That a self-important Never Was so readily threatened that investment and living deserves noting. While Cooper's physical outburst deserved sanction, the harshness of the suspension and comments of the judiciary chairman deserved sanction and salutary historical note. Surely there were articles published on this issue.115.42.14.118 (talk) 04:48, 24 August 2021 (UTC)[reply]

Try this:
"Humphreys appointed Jim Comans his new chairman of the NSW Rugby League judiciary in 1980 with a clear edict to clean up the game.
Comans, a former World War II bomber pilot, began handing out suspensions for violent acts that were records in their length, going 12 months and 15 months and entire seasons.
[..]By cleaning the game of foul play it allowed the athleticism of the players to flourish and be celebrated and it spawned an unprecedented period of growth, paving the way for Tina Turner to take it to another level again in the late 1980s."
https://warren.rabbitohs.net/t/nrl-comes-out-swinging-over-head-shots-with-sweeping-review/10979.
Though probably not where your sympathies lie, eh Bob? Local Potentate (talk) 06:37, 24 August 2021 (UTC)[reply]

I was thinking of something a little less promotional and more factual, sourced from something better than a self-published or inside source. I've read the first part of the story before from another RL source. The claims about allowing athleticism to flourishing and spawning growth are unsupported. Rule changes in this era that made the game a more open running game were probably more significant. Growth probably stemmed from marketing and the great era of growth of many commercialized sports following colour TV and Kerry Packer's World Series Cricket. Growth also came from demographics of immigration, population growth and as the huge baby boomers population became spectators and parents of baby boom echo players. The Tina Turner theme song was a great choice but the claimed link paving the way for it is a bit rich. Humphreys, the later disgraced criminal NSWRL and ARL boss, might have told the players to clean-up their game and strategized an incentive scheme rather than instructing the judiciary to make unprecedented examples. 115.42.14.118 (talk) 10:16, 24 August 2021 (UTC)[reply]

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