Talk:Bonaparte Crossing the Alps

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Good articleBonaparte Crossing the Alps has been listed as one of the Art and architecture good articles under the good article criteria. If you can improve it further, please do so. If it no longer meets these criteria, you can reassess it.
Article milestones
DateProcessResult
August 31, 2007Good article nomineeListed
December 15, 2007Featured article candidateNot promoted
Did You Know
A fact from this article appeared on Wikipedia's Main Page in the "Did you know?" column on August 9, 2007.
The text of the entry was: Did you know ...that Bonaparte Crossing the Alps (pictured) was commissioned to Paul Delaroche after he criticised Jacques-Louis David's version for being unrealistic?
Current status: Good article

GA review[edit]

Ok, I'll be the GA reviewer of the article this time. I would like to inform you that the article has passed the quick-failes criteria and is now being inspected on a deeper level. Please note that I value my independence and I will not make any edits to this article. If you would like to discuss aspects of this article, please do. Regards, Daimanta 23:00, 31 August 2007 (UTC)[reply]

"The contrast between Jacques-Louis David's depiction of the same scene (of Napoleon traversing the Alps on his way to Italy), which was an official, internationally flattering portrait that the king of Spain requested[18][II] for Napoleon[22](as a gift) and Delaroche's depiction in Bonaparte Crossing the Alps is very great."

Can somebody clean that sentence up? It is pretty hard to read. Daimanta 23:20, 31 August 2007 (UTC)[reply]
Green tickY Done -- Anonymous DissidentTalk 23:39, 31 August 2007 (UTC)[reply]

I also noted a lack of the legacy of this painting and the modern perspective on it. It would make the article so much better. Daimanta 23:36, 31 August 2007 (UTC)[reply]

I would also like to see a link to the actual crossing of the Alps and if that's not possible I would like to see a link to the first paragraph in this article. Daimanta 23:38, 31 August 2007 (UTC)[reply]

The crossing of the Alps itself does not have (or probably merit) an article, but it is talked on in Napoleon Bonaparte and Battle of Marengo (1800), as well as in Pierre Nicholas Dorsaz. -- Anonymous DissidentTalk 23:42, 31 August 2007 (UTC)[reply]
Well, if Napoleon managed to surprise Austria, we need to link the word "surprise" to the battle. Daimanta 00:13, 1 September 2007 (UTC)[reply]
battle is already linked: "...sparking a great battle on 14 June, which resulted in the Austrian evacuation of Italy." -- Anonymous DissidentTalk 00:17, 1 September 2007 (UTC)[reply]
True, but it's favourable to have it in the lead section for quick look-up. Daimanta 00:52, 1 September 2007 (UTC)[reply]
I agree, but the fact is that the "surprise" ≠ to the battle. The battle was a result of the initial surprise, and came later. -- Anonymous DissidentTalk 00:58, 1 September 2007 (UTC)[reply]
Ok, that seems convincing. Very well, I will agree to the lack of a link. If there comes a possibility to add a link, please do.

I took the liberty to address the issues of the previous GA-review. 


   * The details of Napoleon's crossing in the "Background" section (wine consumed, etc.) seem less relevant than a broad outline of why Napoleon was crossing the Alps in the first place. What war was this part of? The reader cannot be presumed to know.
Fixed
   * Delaroche based his earlier works on figures and subjects from the Bible's Old Testament, but, later, his interests became focused on English and French history[16] of which Bonaparte Crossing the Alps, which was painted roughly eight years before Delaroche's death, is an example. - The article jumps all over the place. This sentence is an example - suddenly we are reading about Delaroche's other works. The entire "Background" section needs to flow more logically.
Sentence fixed
   * Delaroche's work, contrary to the realistic portrayal of Napoleon climbing the Alps seen in this painting, was not always historically accurate; a good example of historical flaw in his work can be found in the setting of The Execution of Lady Jane Grey (painted in 1833): in a dungeon, which was untrue and inaccurate. - "this painting" is vague; what do you mean by "untrue and inaccurate"? No painting is going to be historically accurate, after all, and many are not even aiming for that.
Sentence Fixed
   * The "Analysis" section is much too short - it does not deal with Delaroche's painting style, for example, at all. Half of it is simply a description of the painting (akin to a plot summary).
Fixed
   * The "Reception and legacy" section could definitely be expanded - what other paintings did this one influence, for example? How does it fit into Delaroche's ouevre?
Reception is prety solid
   * I see that most of your sources are on Napoleon - what about using some books on Delaroche? The article should primarily be about the painting rather than Napoleon, after all.
Better sources
   * I would advise you to read WP:MOSLINKS. You have linked obvious words, such as "spring" and "mule", but failed to link to an article about Napoleon's actual crossing of the Alps in the first sentences, for example.
Pretty decent
   * I would suggest a copy editor for the article. There are wordy, vague and awkward sentences throughout the article.

       * EX: After much discussion and thought about which path was to be taken, based in regards to length verses difficulty[5], it was decided that the Great St Bernard Pass was the best option because it was the shortest route, by far, and would allow Napoleon to reach his destination as quickly as was possible through the Alps. - I did not know we were discussing Napoleon and not the painting until I got to the end of the sentence. I assumed that the sentence was about the painting, since the article is.
       * EX: While Delaroche was commissioned to create a realistic portrait of Napoleon, the truth was that almost all portraits and paintings before David's work were realistic depictions of Napoleon, and it was probably David's artwork that was one of the, if not the, first to show Napoleon in a flattered and exaggerated light. - I don't quite follow this sentence - what representations before David?
Fixed
   * The lead needs to be a standalone summary of the article, per WP:LEAD (read for hints on how to write leads).
Pretty decent
   * You might look at Three Studies for Figures at the Base of a Crucifixion and An Experiment on a Bird in the Air Pump for examples of excellent articles on paintings.

Ok, I am inclined to pass this article. I would like to see this article improve by a somewhat better reference to the actual crossing of the Alps(might be difficult). Also there should be a decent legacy section. I'm going to hold on for about 12 hours. If there is no further comment then, I will pass this article. I would like to thank Anonymous Dissident for aiding me in my requests and I would also like to thank the other authors for making this article. Regards, Daimanta 12:00, 1 September 2007 (UTC)[reply]

As I have discussed with Awadewit, there are very few sources regarding anything resembling a "legacy"; it is mentioned that it formed part of an emerging style, but the long-term effects it truly left on the artistic community at large are not apparent in my sources. -- Anonymous DissidentTalk 12:13, 1 September 2007 (UTC)[reply]
However - i might be able to go to my local library sometime soon, but certainly not in the next 12 hours... are you still inclined to pass? -- Anonymous DissidentTalk 12:16, 1 September 2007 (UTC)[reply]
With the current quality? Absolutely. But if it were to try to reach FA, a legacy would be perfect. Daimanta 12:17, 1 September 2007 (UTC)[reply]
Indeed. So - what is the point of leaving 12 hours? -- Anonymous DissidentTalk 12:31, 1 September 2007 (UTC)[reply]
Waiting for any comments and/or reasons that would influence my decision. I see it as a safeguard. If there aren't any comments it would indicate consensus on the GA review. And that's something I like. Daimanta 12:40, 1 September 2007 (UTC)[reply]
Ok then. If that is the way you review, I am fine with that. -- Anonymous DissidentTalk 12:43, 1 September 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Ok, it's done. I would like to thank the editors again for making this a great article. Daimanta 22:50, 1 September 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Thanks for the review. -- Anonymous DissidentTalk 22:52, 1 September 2007 (UTC)[reply]

GA fail[edit]

I am failing this article because it needs to be substantially expanded to be considered "broad" in coverage and it needs quite a bit of copy editing.

  • The details of Napoleon's crossing in the "Background" section (wine consumed, etc.) seem less relevant than a broad outline of why Napoleon was crossing the Alps in the first place. What war was this part of? The reader cannot be presumed to know.
  • Delaroche based his earlier works on figures and subjects from the Bible's Old Testament, but, later, his interests became focused on English and French history[16] of which Bonaparte Crossing the Alps, which was painted roughly eight years before Delaroche's death, is an example. - The article jumps all over the place. This sentence is an example - suddenly we are reading about Delaroche's other works. The entire "Background" section needs to flow more logically.
  • Delaroche's work, contrary to the realistic portrayal of Napoleon climbing the Alps seen in this painting, was not always historically accurate; a good example of historical flaw in his work can be found in the setting of The Execution of Lady Jane Grey (painted in 1833): in a dungeon, which was untrue and inaccurate. - "this painting" is vague; what do you mean by "untrue and inaccurate"? No painting is going to be historically accurate, after all, and many are not even aiming for that.
  • The "Analysis" section is much too short - it does not deal with Delaroche's painting style, for example, at all. Half of it is simply a description of the painting (akin to a plot summary).
  • The "Reception and legacy" section could definitely be expanded - what other paintings did this one influence, for example? How does it fit into Delaroche's ouevre?
  • I see that most of your sources are on Napoleon - what about using some books on Delaroche? The article should primarily be about the painting rather than Napoleon, after all.
  • I would advise you to read WP:MOSLINKS. You have linked obvious words, such as "spring" and "mule", but failed to link to an article about Napoleon's actual crossing of the Alps in the first sentences, for example.
  • I would suggest a copy editor for the article. There are wordy, vague and awkward sentences throughout the article.
  • EX: After much discussion and thought about which path was to be taken, based in regards to length verses difficulty[5], it was decided that the Great St Bernard Pass was the best option because it was the shortest route, by far, and would allow Napoleon to reach his destination as quickly as was possible through the Alps. - I did not know we were discussing Napoleon and not the painting until I got to the end of the sentence. I assumed that the sentence was about the painting, since the article is.
  • EX: While Delaroche was commissioned to create a realistic portrait of Napoleon, the truth was that almost all portraits and paintings before David's work were realistic depictions of Napoleon, and it was probably David's artwork that was one of the, if not the, first to show Napoleon in a flattered and exaggerated light. - I don't quite follow this sentence - what representations before David?

If you have any questions about this review, drop a line on my talk page. Awadewit | talk 21:33, 9 August 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Sources[edit]

Here are some more thorough sources on Delaroche.

Review[edit]

This article is much improved - I'm impressed with how much you have added in such a short time. However, I think that it can be better still (whether or not it would pass GA, I can't really say - people seem to have very different standards for GA articles). Here is what I suggest:

Expansion:

  • The primary message of this article seems to be "Delaroche's version is realistic while David's is idealistic". That idea is repeated several times in the article. I think that perhaps other interpretations of the painting should be added. This is just one, of course. The material you added on Delaroche's painting style is a welcome addition, but I think that even more could be said about the meanings conveyed by the painting.
  • I still think that more could be said in the "Reception" section regarding the painting's place in art history.
  • It would be helpful to the reader if you dated the paintings in the caption box.

Revision:

  • I know that writing leads is quite difficult, but I believe that this one still needs some work. Have you looked at WP:BETTER#Lead section? It offers some helpful tips on writing leads. The key thing to remember is that the lead is supposed to be a standalone summary of the article. Imagine reading only the lead - what must be included there for a lead-only reader to get a grasp of the major points of the article? The lead is also supposed to serve as a kind of roadmap for the reader who goes on to the rest of the article. The lead prepares them for the rest of the article, so it is a good idea to mention all of the major topics covered in the article in the lead.
  • despite the existence of another art work with the preceding title - Perhaps a detail better left for the body of the article?
  • The casualty distinction does not seem very great to me - since those numbers are going to be estimates anyway, it could easily be that the Austrians lost more men. I would reword that a bit. I'm not even sure that the numbers are necessary for this article.
  • Please take the time to read wikipedia's policies regarding linking (I think that I suggested this before). Linking words such as "cheese" and "meat" is unnecessary in the context of this article. Links are meant to enhance the reader's understanding of the topic being discussed. Links to articles on common foodstuffs are not as helpful as links to the French Revolutionary Wars, for example.
  • Delaroche was involved in politics artistically, both in rebellion against political bodies in this way, and in support of the latter. - This doesn't quite make sense and is much too vague.
  • However, it was this attachment to the revolution that was the reasoning behind his imprisoning in 1794, for a period of one year. - Why was he imprisoned? The French revolution is extremely complicated - many sides claimed to be acting in the interests of the revolution, so it is difficult to tell here who Delaroche fell afoul of. A bit more on this entire episode might not be amiss.
  • "Content" is kind of vague as a heading, isn't it? Can we come up with something more specific?
  • I did quite a bit of copy editing work as I was reading the first half of the article. It would be worth spending some time studying the changes I made and then trying to fix similar problems throughout the rest of the article. I noticed one recurring issue in the writing of the article - wordiness.

Deletion:

  • (thirty five thousand light artillery and infantry, five thousand cavalry[6]), not including the other, heavier field artillery and baggage trains. During the five days spent traversing the Pass, Napoleon's army consumed almost 22,000 bottles of wine, more than a tonne and a half of cheese, and around 800 kilograms of meat - I don't think that this information is necessary for an article on the painting. It distracts from the focus of the article. You want readers to become intrigued about the painting, not the battle.
  • I'm not sure that the gallery adds much. What are you trying to tell the reader with these images? It is best to have a clear idea of that if you are going to include a gallery. Currently the images seem repetitious.

I hope that these comments help you as you revise the article. If you have any questions or need any clarifications, drop me a line on my talk page. Awadewit | talk 09:02, 13 August 2007 (UTC)[reply]

french reference[edit]

Hello In references section i added a french reference from magasine la Revue du Louvre , Paul Delaroche et le thème du passage du saint-Bernard (pages 367 to 384) it is the most complete study about this painting publied in France fr:user:Kirtap —Preceding unsigned comment added by 88.141.150.2 (talk) 02:19, 16 December 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Expand research[edit]

Here Paul is modelling the ever popular "Nappy Curl"

I really think that you need to expand your research for this article. Here are some things that might be useful:

There are also quite a few articles and a few books in French that probably have helpful information in them. Would that be an option for you? Have you checked the French Wikipedia article for information on this painting? Awadewit | talk 09:07, 16 December 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Unfortunately I cannot read French, but thanks for the links you have provided. -- Anonymous DissidentTalk 09:33, 16 December 2007 (UTC)[reply]
By the way, do you have access to a university library or a large public library there in Sydney? That is the only place where you are going to find enough information to write this article, I'm afraid. Awadewit | talk 09:46, 16 December 2007 (UTC)[reply]
I don't recall History Painted having much on this painting, although it did discuss his other two portraits of Napoleon.
  • [1] gives you some history
  • [2] puts it in a cycle with his other paintings of Napoleon. Bit old, but it is a popular theme.
  • Your best plan would be to wait for Kirtap to produce an article on it in the fr wikipedia and then pinch it (remember to laugh cruelly as you do this). Yomanganitalk 15:05, 17 December 2007 (UTC)[reply]
  • David or Delaroche?
    David or Delaroche?
  • They weren't always so far apart
    They weren't always so far apart

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External links modified[edit]

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Location[edit]

The French page says that this work is the property of the French state and located in the Musée du Louvre in Lens. The English page says that it's located in St James's Palace in London. Can we verify which it is?

Gladius-veritatis (talk) 06:39, 1 April 2019 (UTC)[reply]

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