Talk:Caldicot

Church Farmhouse, Caldicot

In connection with some work I'm doing on listed buildings in Monmouthshire, I'd really appreciate a photograph of Church Farmhouse, should any editors live in/visit Caldicot. I'm not sure how accessible it is from the public highway, Google Earth indicates it might be, and obviously the privacy of the owners should be respected. This 2017 advertisement, [1], suggests you wouldn't miss it if you saw it! I've also posted this request on the Wales Project Talkpage. Thanks and regards. KJP1 (talk) 17:12, 21 September 2018 (UTC)[reply]

An interesting property. There has been some archaeological interest at the site, I see. It's not far from User:Ghmyrtle's neck of the woods I think. Martinevans123 (talk) 20:15, 21 September 2018 (UTC)[reply]

Martinevans123 - Indeed. One of Monmouthshire's oldest inhabited houses, and with quite an illustrious history. And all for 800K. Ghmyrtle's helped me out before with some Chepstow-related shots and may be able to help again. Or surely somebody in Caldicot reads this damn 'pedia? KJP1 (talk) 20:53, 21 September 2018 (UTC)[reply]

But you know what they say about them parts.... there be monsters... Martinevans123 (talk) 21:29, 21 September 2018 (UTC)[reply]

It looks to me as though it's hidden away behind hedges at the end of Taff Road. You would need to get access to the private land to get a decent image. Ghmyrtle (talk) 08:50, 1 October 2018 (UTC)[reply]

Ghmyrtle - Thanks very much for having a look at it. I'll try to get round there when I'm down in November. I think I shall have to invest in a drone if I'm ever to complete the Grade II*s. KJP1 (talk) 17:57, 1 October 2018 (UTC)[reply]

I only checked on Google Earth! It would take quite a lot to get me to venture out into the wilds of Caldicot... Ghmyrtle (talk) 18:54, 1 October 2018 (UTC)[reply]

Even applies in Undy, apparently. Martinevans123 (talk) 19:17, 1 October 2018 (UTC)[reply]

Ghmyrtle - whilst I’m on, you don’t know if Wyelands is visible from the public highway? I’ve only managed a gatehouse shot so far. KJP1 (talk) 05:58, 2 October 2018 (UTC)[reply]

I don't think it is. There's a public right of way across fields through the estate, but I don't believe the house is clearly visible from there either. Ghmyrtle (talk) 08:13, 2 October 2018 (UTC)[reply]

Very belated notification that I managed to take a pic myself - in 2020. But...

Court House, Caldicot

Ghmyrtle, Martinevans123 ...I'm now looking for a snap of Court House, Caldicot. It's easily visible on Google Earth, and thus from the street, that being Castle Lea. It's now surrounding by 20th century housing. Infuriatingly, the great Jaggery of Geograph fame took a number of pictures of the, very dull, 1970s boxes but missed Court House. It's listed,^[1] and, as I think Ghmyrtle knows, was the home of the inventor of self-raising flour! The house of such a national hero warrants an article. Should either of you find yourselves in the vicinity, a snap would be much appreciated. KJP1 (talk) 10:46, 30 November 2022 (UTC) KJP1 (talk) 10:46, 30 November 2022 (UTC)[reply]

Sorry, but I'm simply not able to help with requests like this at the moment. Ghmyrtle (talk) 10:53, 30 November 2022 (UTC)[reply]

No worries, I will try and get down myself sometime. Hope all is well with you. KJP1 (talk) 10:55, 30 November 2022 (UTC)[reply]

References

^ Cadw. "Court House (Grade II) (2939)". National Historic Assets of Wales. Retrieved 30 November 2022.

Incorrect statement

The BBC article referenced for Caldicot being one of the best places to live, does not mention Caldicot. 84.65.43.164 (talk) 20:26, 29 December 2022 (UTC)[reply]

Thank you - I've removed that statement. Ghmyrtle (talk) 21:22, 29 December 2022 (UTC)[reply]

Requested move 21 December 2023

The following is a closed discussion of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on the talk page. Editors desiring to contest the closing decision should consider a move review after discussing it on the closer's talk page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

The result of the move request was: Moved (non-admin closure) (t · c) buidhe 08:18, 29 December 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Caldicot, Monmouthshire → Caldicot
Caldicot → Caldicot (disambiguation)

– WP:PRIMARY TOPIC, there are no other standalone settlements called "Caldicot" with as much primacy as this article. The Caldicot DAB page only lists ancient village of Caldicot, Buckinghamshire as the only other alternative, but it has never been an article, rather a redirect, and per the redirect target Bedgrove, it is only mentioned because the ancient village provides one of the street names. Per WikiNav all directs from the DAB go to the Monmouthshire entry, with the Monmouthshire entry being the most popular page among distinct entries from the DAB, i.e. excluding other pages named after the Monmouthshire place like Caldicot Castle, Caldicot railway station and Caldicot School all located in the town. Therefore there are no other worthy contenders for "Caldicot" aside the Monmouthshire town, so surely is the WP:PRIMARYTOPIC. Dank Jae 21:00, 21 December 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Support, for reasons given. Martinevans123 (talk) 22:40, 21 December 2023 (UTC)[reply]
Support all the other entries simply refer to the Welsh one so WP:DABCONCEPT would apply. In terms of the English one it isn't in the Domesday Book and isn't an OS settlement so it doesn't even seem notable so that means the Welsh one is pretty much the only use other than its subtopics. Crouch, Swale (talk) 19:06, 23 December 2023 (UTC)[reply]
That WikiNav graph shows 18 clickstreams out of 39 incoming going there, which is actually <50% so it isn't conclusive at all. The other stats are much more convincing, such as all time mass views that shows a ratio of 100 : 1 between Monmouthshire and Buckinghamshire. --Joy (talk) 09:28, 26 December 2023 (UTC)[reply]
Do we ever take simply physical size/ population of a settlement into account? Is relative notability simply the product of internet views? Thanks. Martinevans123 (talk) 10:11, 26 December 2023 (UTC)[reply]
@Martinevans123 the original proposer's argument effectively did that, by explaining how the main comparison is to the much smaller settlement, and there's little argument there. I was just correcting their reading of WikiNav, in the interest of all of us learning how to interpret the available statistics better in the future. --Joy (talk) 11:34, 26 December 2023 (UTC)[reply]
Many thanks for clarifying. Yes, that's very helpful for future reference. Martinevans123 (talk) Martinevans123 (talk) 12:01, 26 December 2023 (UTC)[reply]

The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

"Cil-y-coed"

The source clearly says: "In fact, the form "Cil-y-coed" seems NOT to have been evidenced for Caldicot"? Neither does it mention "Folk etymology". But it does say: "William Owen Pugh suggested that "Calecoyd" was a form of Cil-y-coed which he translated as "the skirt of the wood" i.e. Wentwood. (The Welsh "cil" may also mean "retreat", "corner" etc). So maybe that needs to be spelt out? Is that what "a recognised Welsh name" means? Thanks. Martinevans123 (talk) 22:05, 3 May 2024 (UTC)[reply]

@Martinevans123, it is on the list of standardised Welsh place-names in Monmouthshire and used by Monmouthshire council. How more recognised can it get? Dank Jae 22:48, 3 May 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Probably by mention and/or explanation in an academic work. Don't councils just invent place names if they want to? Martinevans123 (talk) 08:15, 4 May 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Many places can be regarded to now have invented names in English, but where it came from doesn't matter. It is whether it is used, and Cil-y-Coed is, so should be mentioned. Dank Jae 09:32, 4 May 2024 (UTC)[reply]

I tend to agree that, if it appears on road signs, a name should be mentioned. But, it was just invented by William Owen Pughe in 1832? As he is notable (indeed notable for inventing words), maybe a fuller explanation or footnote would be justified? Thanks. Martinevans123 (talk) 09:59, 4 May 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Only opposed the full removal of the name, even if it was invented (as most names are) because it is now actually used it should be here. Be free to expand the specific section on naming, but whether that detail should be in the lead depends on how much the article discusses it. Although prefer not to open a new discussion on names of questionable origin needing footnotes, I prefer any explanation just being in the body. Dank Jae 15:37, 4 May 2024 (UTC)[reply]

I was envisioning some kind of further explanation in the "History" section (as there is no "Etymology" section). But I still think "The modern Welsh name, Cil-y-coed.." is a bit misleading. It's not really "Welsh" and I doubt it's ever used by any Welsh speakers. Apart from the council, is there any other source anywhere that uses it? Happy to hear what other editors have to say. Martinevans123 (talk) 15:48, 4 May 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Be free to re-word that section, emphasising it was invented, but it does already specify "modern".

The town council, welcome signs, S4C, BBC [2], railway station [3], Gwent Police, gov and the local school use it. My main concern is that is shouldn't be removed from the lead and infobox, open to adding a prefix to the lead like "derivative Welsh" or "rarely Welsh" if proven Caldicot is/was also used in Welsh. Dank Jae 16:47, 4 May 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Ah right, lots of RS sources, then. Many thanks. Martinevans123 (talk) 17:07, 4 May 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Richard Morgan and Hywel Wyn Owen's Dictionary of the Place-names of Wales (2007, p. 66) says this in its entry for Caldicot: "A very recent innovation is a W[elsh] coinage Cil-y-coed, probably of local provenance, perhaps influenced by -cot taken as coed" (sic; not my emphasis) – so they can't have been aware that it was Pughe's coinage. As it's in official use I think it should stay the lede.

The current body text "invented by William Owen Pughe for his 1832 A Dictionary of the Welsh Language explained in English." isn't completely supported by the source, which says that Pughe compiled the dictionary but not that "Cil-y-coed" appeared in it. Ham II (talk) 11:26, 6 May 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Oh, I see. Anyone got a copy handy? Martinevans123 (talk) 11:31, 6 May 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Google Books has it. (Thank you, Bavarian State Library!) It's got no entries for "Caldicot", "Calecoyd" or "Cil-y-coed" – probably no place-names at all. Ham II (talk) 13:16, 6 May 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Ah, that was the 1803 edition, but nothing in the 1832 edition either. Ham II (talk) 13:30, 6 May 2024 (UTC)[reply]

So, where was this name ever published by Pughe? If it was never published, how does Graham Osborn know he invented it? There seems to have been some dialogue with William Coxe. Perhaps we should be using Osborne's 1989 The Place Names of Eastern Gwent as the source here? There's an edition online here but with no preview. (I see there's a used copy at only £6.52 from AbeBooks!) Martinevans123 (talk) 15:35, 6 May 2024 (UTC)[reply]

[1] Cadw. "Court House (Grade II) (2939)". National Historic Assets of Wales. Retrieved 30 November 2022.

[1]