Talk:Calligraphy/Archive 1

Archive 1

Splitting

possible form of the split

• Calligraphy
  • Chinese calligraphy (Chinese painting is related, but not the same thing and not the main article)
  • Japanese calligraphy (Shodo)
  • Arabic calligraphy
  • Western calligraphy - not sure what to call this? It's the latin alpbabet (more-or-less) so it's not like English calligraphy will do, so, what should it be called?

I don't think we need a page like East Asian calligraphy or Middle Eastern calligraphy do we? They can be sections with intros on the calligraphy. gren 20:32, 29 May 2005 (UTC)

The way they were before they were merged was East Asian calligraphy, Arabic calligraphy, and Western calligraphy. Japanese and Chinese calligraphy are involved with each other enough to warrant their being put together, but i won't complain if they're not.

As for Western calligraphy: maybe European calligraphy? -℘yrop (talk) 00:04, May 30, 2005 (UTC)

Oh, we never got this going. The problem is this article is written towards Islamic calligraphy.. which isn't necessarily Arabic calligraphy... it's more narrow in some cases... and more broad in others (could include Persian Qur'ans no?) gren 03:42, 20 Jun 2005 (UTC)

There is redundancy between this article and Chinese calligraphy, it's a bit annoying. gbog 15:29, 17 July 2005 (UTC)

How about placing sections on calligraphy in articles about the respective scripts- Chinese character, Latin alphabet and Arabic alphabet? Dewrad 12:35, 14 August 2005 (UTC)

Dividing according to script is the only sensible way of splitting this article. There are many scripts written calligraphically besides Chinese, Arabic, and Latin, there is also Tibetan and Hebrew, and others. I think a summary of each category and a link to a main article seems appropriate for the longer sections. --Yodakii 13:23:56, 2005-09-06 (UTC)

Splitting suggestions

I think this article needs to be worked out and split since all of these subjects could definitely be expanded upon and there are other articles related that cannot be done justice to on a single page for all calligraphy. gren 08:45, 29 May 2005 (UTC)

The article WAS split up into a few articles, but then someone merged them all back in. I'd fully support splitting them out again.-℘yrop (talk) 17:23, May 29, 2005 (UTC)

I agree it should be --NEWUSER|CARPEDIEM ^(talk) 19:17, May 29, 2005 (UTC)

I think that there should be a split too. I'd love to see someone who knows a lot about Arabic calligraphy and asian calligraphy expand on those topics - it truly is fascinating and each of the different scripts deserve a page each devoted to them. Mixing the Kanji/Chinese characters with the Arabic really is confusing to the eyes :) --NathanO 07:26, 15 August 2005 (UTC)

The East Asian section states: "Calligraphy has influenced most major art styles in East Asia, including sumi-e, a style of Chinese and Japanese painting based entirely on calligraphy." How, exactly, is sumi-e based entirely on calligraphy? While sumi-e does share the same instruments with calligraphy, some of the general philosophy and sometimes contain calligraphy in the paintings, it seems quite a stretch to call it based entirely on calligraphy. I'm tempted to remove the line. Is there any support for that? Uly 22:49, 14 December 2005 (UTC)

How to section by Kunal Bhalla

Regarding Calligraphy as a hobby Revision as of 23:21, 6 January 2006, by user Kunal Bhalla.

Kunal, since you don't have a user page or talk page I can only leave a message here on the Calligraphy talk page. I can appreciate your effort and motivation, but unfortunately this kind of material is an example of What Wikipedia is not. Please refer to this help page:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/What_Wikipedia_is_not Down the page is the heading; Wikipedia is not an indiscriminate collection of information

The text specifically says:

"Instruction manuals - while Wikipedia has descriptions of people, places, and things, Wikipedia articles should not include instruction - advice (legal, medical, or otherwise), suggestions, or contain "how-to"s. This includes tutorials, walk-throughs, instruction manuals, video game guides, and recipes. Wikibooks is a Wikipedia sister-project which is better suited for such things."

Sorry, but this article is supposed to be an objective factual description of what calligraphy is, not how to perform calligraphy. On that basis your How To section does not belong and intend I remove to it in 48 hours from the time of this post. If you or other Wikipedians would like to remove the section sooner, don't wait for me. Arbo 10:59, 8 January 2006 (UTC)

How To section removed

Okay, it's done. To preserve the section I've posted it here, below. According to Wiki help articles this kind of material is better off in Wikibooks. Arbo 12:50, 10 January 2006 (UTC)

I think that the assertion that calligraphy has been rendered "defunct" is wildly overstated. I agree that the section extracted below is best covered in a good textbook or via good tuition from a calligraphy teacher. The classes link out can be used to find one. Some restraints apply to the advertising of particular books on Wikipedia itself and there may be as many favourite beginner's books as there are calligraphers so to speak. My approach to this page is simply to present a competent introduction to the subject that points people in good directions for assistance.≈ Furminger ≈ 15 April 2007.

Whis is "western" at the bottom?

I suggest doing it in alphabetical order; (I(slam) before H(ewbrew)? And rename Western "European". Ksenon 17:44, 9 February 2006 (UTC)

Not to be petty, but America is not Europe, calligraphy isn't entirely dead. Therefore "Western" may not be the best choice, but it is more inclusive. This also holds true as far as Russia is concerned. The primary problem with "European" is that it is difficult to limit geographically while being inclusive of the applicable writing systems. Angrynight 04:30, 7 March 2006 (UTC)

Perhaps by script is best, i.e. Latin, Cyrillic, etc. Angrynight 16:41, 8 March 2006 (UTC)

Tibet

I added a modest section on Tibetan calligraphy. It was essentially a foundation for further editing. I'm surprised that with all the talk about Tibet the section didn't already exist.

Sincerely,

Mbrutus 02:33, 25 May 2006 (UTC)

Photo poorly notated

The picture Mifu01.jpg in the Chinese Calligraphy section clearly displays Japanese calligraphy. To my understanding, Chinese does not use phonetic letters, which are clearly displayed in the picture, and Japanese does. Unless someone can explain the photo better, it should be removed because it is a poor example of Chinese calligraphy.

Ernieefiii 13:28, 22 June 2006 (UTC)

That isn't Japanese calligraphy at all; it's recognizably and legibly Chinese. I'm not sure where your misunderstanding comes from.

External links?

Please see WP:EL for a description of what is recommended that we link to, and what it is not. ≈ jossi ≈ t • @ 14:16, 9 August 2006 (UTC)

A main article for script as a style of handwriting

Is hand synonymous to script? Script is used in the article to refer to the styles.

There is a need for an article having the status of the main article describing script in this sense. Many articles now (such as Blackletter) incorrectly link script to writing system. But, well, the writing system is unique among the styles: it's Roman alphabet.

For now, I'll just redirect those incorrect links I have come across to script (styles of handwriting), and it in its turn redirect to this article. Perhaps someone has better ideas.

Regards,--Imz 20:21, 23 October 2005 (UTC)

It turned out that there is a "continuum" of meaning between writing system and a style of writing, for example, it's hard to tell whether it is more appropriate to call Beneventan script a styel of writing as some other "scripts" or a writing system based on Roman alphabet. (That's due to special conventions of denoting skipped letters etc.)--Imz 21:01, 23 October 2005 (UTC)

In my experience, "script" is British usage and "hand" is American with the same meaning. Writing style is also used to mean hand or script. However, writing system refers to a set of characters used to write a spoken language -- such as Roman letters, Cyrillic letters, Chinese ideographs, etc. Katoto 04:11, 8 November 2006 (UTC)

Definition of Calligraphy

An example of scrolls applied to the letter 'S'. From 17th century Germany.

The article appears to define calligraphy as hand-written, and contrasts it with typography. However, it completely ignores engraved and wood-cut calligraphy. Under western calligraphy, it skips straight from the middle ages to the late 19th century, ignoring several centuries of evolving lettering art. I'd like to suggest the accompanying picture, and I could also scan a page from George Bickham's The universal penman. --Vlmastra 22:40, 3 March 2007 (UTC)

Eventually, it would be best to split the articles into separate spin-off articles, as per Wikipedia:Content forking. This is a fascinating subject, and each section is deserving its own article. ≈ jossi ≈ (talk) 01:36, 30 April 2007 (UTC)

Minor Point

"the art of beautiful writing"

Beauty is subjective, and this does not seem entirely appropriate for Wikipedia. Some may consider calligraphy vulgar or ostentatious; although it is nonetheless still an art.

If you refer to the beginning of the article, you will read that the word calligraphy comes from a Greek origin; and the word actually means "beautiful writing". Kwork 20:06, 25 June 2007 (UTC)

Font and Script

What is the difference between cooperplate font and cooperplate script? —The preceding unsigned comment was added by Vishakha241 (talk • contribs) 04:34, 14 December 2006 (UTC).

• A font is a set of glyphs which are arranged to make writing. For example, a matched set of movable type, or a TrueType font file describing the letters of the alphabet in a way your computer can use to make words.
  A script is a style of handwriting.
  "Cooperplate" is probably a misspelling of copperplate, which was originally neither a font nor a script, but rather an engraving style (engraving in copper plates, in fact), which inspired scripts, and later fonts. (Gleef 15:00, 25 July 2007 (UTC))

Siddham Calligraphy

I'd like to add some info on Siddhaṃ calligraphy. The script is Indian (a derivative of the Gupta script), but the art is only practiced in Japan these days - mainly in the Shingon School. So where should I put it? India or East Asia? Thanks. mahaabaala 19:09, 2 July 2007 (UTC)

I think you should add it in the Indian section if it use Indian alphabet, but you have to notice the fact that this tradition is keep living in Japan. Yug 14:21, 27 July 2007 (UTC)

Thanks mahaabaala 08:37, 31 July 2007 (UTC)

Western Calligraphy recent improvements

Hello, I "leaded" this recent improvement despite my bad english. You can help by :

• completing the red links,
• copy this historical section in the article "Western calligraphy", and expand it there ;
• expanding the English script (calligraphy) article (a cursive font style use in the eighteen century in England, and then spread to the world).

Yug (talk) 17:36, 23 August 2007 (UTC)

Western Calligraphy : comments by MicPowell (2007, 5 october)

Hello MicPowell and many thanks for you comments. I notice you that :

• articles should not contain authors signatures ;
• articles should not contain "talk like" texts, anwering to the previous sections : you can simply modify the false statements (and cite your sources if possible).

Accordingly, I have quickly move your comments here. You can copy them, delete your signature, improve their redaction to look like an encyclopedic article, and merge your knowledge directly inside the current article text (without signature).

All my encouragement for your first edits on Wikipedia ^__^y Yug (talk) 22:50, 13 October 2007 (UTC)\

Bellow, the comments in question :

---

Western Writing is not confined to Western Calligraphy which is a 19th Century naive notion, as formal scripts ususlly called Chancery are not premissed on being calligraphic. Further the alphabet is not Roman but a consensus International in intent. For example according to PBS, the letter A came from Mesopatemia as a counting figure for a head of cattle which was the first international unit of exchange and there to the first Stock Market. In Egypt scribes took dictation during the time of the Pharos and thus 'K' is the pictograph for Knubus the god the underworld,hence a dogs head with it's yap open. Note Khatho-hegia, Kufe,Krissant could not be spelt so in Rome which had no k. The North Africans starting with Egypt also introduced the letter 'h' for Isis ergo a cats head with whiskers. This and more are the assertions of a Spaniard Writing Master from the Italic Peroid named Juan Yciar, who published a work called Recoplacion Subtilissima.

The earliest Monasteries sprung up out of North Africa and what brought about the Punic War was violation of jurisdictional claims at a time when North Africa had the largest know merchantile fleet. Thus it's natural that such trade venues would encourage a smooth and natural mannor of writing unlike Imperalist Roma. Thus the want of Calligraphers and Typesetters may feed on the Roman geometric writing forms but the history of western writing is influenced more by the North African Uncial. The Carolin in this contex is of almost no merit,and the Monasterial scripts such as the Benevethian and Corbals hold only regional nuances.--MicPowell 21:19, 5 October 2007 (UTC)

The London School for Arts & Crafts was instrumental in the Modern Calligraphic Movement despite the fact that the Royal Acadmey rejected the proposal for a Chair for Writing Masters in 1767. As a direct result along with Typsets dominance over Engraving the quality of penned work has declined drastically and the skill of those bygone days is near and probably soon to be lost.--MicPowell 22:35, 5 October 2007 (UTC)

---

Discussion Precedes Tampering

Hello, I think the sections are currently to short, and need to be rewrite in a better way. Yug (talk) 09:29, 7 September 2007 (UTC)

I really object to the major hacking of the Western Calligraphy section recently. Western Calligraphy had been split into a separate page which is fine so long as the general page is still credible. It is not adequate to be quoting solely from a single textbook and retaining the detaimled rteference section at thye end of the page when they relate to the material that was split off. I don't think that it is the rigfht time to split the pages as most people will come looking under the general heading of calligraphy and besides the comparative outlook of the page is one of its best features. A big rewriting was not required, what is required is the best efforts of those well qualified to enhance the credibility of the page. Furminger 21 October 2007

I agree, it's better to use several books, and you are welcome to add sources to the current Western section.

But we are here [in the article Calligraphy] doing a presentation, an introduction with a basic level. Your text was too "expert like" and too long for this "Calligraphy" article which have to introduce with a friendly level about 8 to 10 kind of Calligraphies. Your contribution had here a level too hight for the local need. Your long and expert text is more welcome in a specialized article. Yug (talk) 09:22, 11 November 2007 (UTC)

Reorganization

I suggest for a reorganzation on a large scale: Calligraphy by itself is a page that just provides a definition, and links to specific pages:

• Chinese Calligraphy
• Japanese Calligraphy
• European Calligraphy
• Hebrew Calligraphy
• Arabic Calligraphy

And move the contents from here and expand on them.

Also, under each calligraphy, I suggest for each to have sections on the forms and hands they have, for example Chinese Calligraphy

• Fast hand
• Standard hand
• ...etc.

European Calligraphy

• Foundation Hand
• Carolingian Hand
• Italics Hand
• Copperplate Hand
• ...etc.

Adding the "hand" behind the subject can also keep the confusion between Copperplate(printing method) and Copperplate(Calligraphy style).

Just a suggestion. --Timmy 03:23, 29 December 2005 (UTC)

Timmy, Chinese, Japanese, Korean, etc calligraphy all use similar styles and hanzi texts, and should be grouped as a single style. Intranetusa 17:23, 13 November 2007 (UTC)

Distinguish Traditional from Simplified

Added this section: "Kǎishū simplified Chinese script was created by the Chinese communist government after World War 2, in order to promote simplification of writing and increase the literacy rate. Simplified script is often considered a corruption of general Hanzi text and is not used in calligraphy." Intranetusa 17:23, 13 November 2007 (UTC)

This is far too biased. Simplified Chinese is in fact used in some forms of calligraphy, and mentioning "communist" is unnecessary, since simplification was being researched by the Nationalists before the foundifdsgsfdgsgdsfgfgsfgsdfgsdng of the PRC. 129.97.59.174 (talk) 15:43, 26 February 2008 (UTC)

So fix it! ≈ jossi ≈ (talk) 16:30, 26 February 2008 (UTC)

Warning  Done

This misleading edit will have to be corrected. 210.203.61.15 (talk) 20:18, 23 February 2008 (UTC)

Reason: simplified characters were already existant for centuries as quick way of writting or local version of a character. In 1956, the communist didn't invented a new style, they simply picked up the easiest existing variants of each characters, and set this variant to the statut of rule to follow.

Anyway, ALL ARE KAISHU STYLE. The 8 basic strokes stay the sames, we don't change of style. 210.203.61.15 = 220.135.4.212 (talk), Taipei. 17:48, 9 March 2008 (UTC)

Calligraphy as a hobby

Though Calligraphy has now been rendered defunct due to the advent of printing and computers, as a hobby and an art, it is one of the best. Calligraphy requires a steady hand and builds concentration. An inclination towards art, sketching or painting can also help.

Printing originated in 1542 or thereabouts - it has never superceded nor made calligraphy defunct. Many legal documents royal decrees, and especially from the crown office of Her Majesty are still written by professional calligraphers, whose historically correct title is 'scribe'.Zenpen 00:14, 9 June 2007 (UTC)

Materials Required

For beginners, a set of calligraphy pens (fountain or otherwise) of different nib sizes, a few coloured inks (according to your personal choice), smooth paper, pencil, scale, etc. and a large board (optional) are required. Felt tip calligraphy pens are also available, to get a faster, easier, taste of the calligraphy world. Free flowing ink does take some time to learn to use effectively and does require cleaning, drying, ect. to keep nibs working properly. 64Iguana (talk) 19:56, 3 November 2008 (UTC)

Getting Started

• Set up your board at a comfortable angle, possibly by leaning it against a few thick books. Attach the writing paper onto it using tape or clips.
• Ruling up: Select your style- uncial, Italics, Gothic Black, though for beginners the foundational alphabet is the best. Try to avoid Gothic on your first try. These styles can be easily obtained on the internet. See the corresponding x-height (the number of nib widths high a letter is), select a nib size and rule up.
• Writing: Holding the nib at the specified nib angle (eg. 30⁰ for uncials), try writing a few letters using smooth strokes. Very few styles use continuous strokes, mainly, you will have to draw a stroke, lift your pen up, select the next appropriate position and continue.

Note: Dip your pen in ink after every letter to maintain the shade of the ink.

The study of uncial lettering from medieval manuscripts from the Britsih Library collection (lindisfarne etc) shows that the pen angle is 0 degrees, commonly called a 'flat pen angle' Zenpen 00:14, 9 June 2007 (UTC) Using a good quality carbon based ink, for example chinese or japanese stick, or good proprietary brands will give consistency of colour, maintain the shade of ink and dispense with the need to dip the nib after every letter. This interrupts the flow of writing and makes letters blobby. The professional scribe never dips, prefering instead to apply the ink by brush to the underside of the nib or quill. Zenpen 00:14, 9 June 2007 (UTC)

Transferring

While carrying out projects you might find it better to write out your text on a plain, ruled up sheet, cutting out the word, and rerranging them to choose the best layout. On doing so, you have an accurate idea of what goes where without any error in the end. Stick these slips in the correct places and shade the back of this sheet using a dark pencil (2B onwards). Using a light, hard pencil (HB or lower) go through the middle of each stroke after keeping your sheet on the final paper. This will transfer faint strokes onto the second sheet. Go over these with the light pencil if required and then finish by writing again with a pen.

Tips

1. Avoid using fountain pens as they rarely give a dark and even ink colour, though they are easier to handle.
2. Try using different coloured inks for a beautiful effect. Use gold and silver ink lightly to avoid a gaudy effect.
3. You can transfer the outlines of letters thus allowing you to use a brush to fill it in. You can thus carry out calligraphy on T-shirts, ceramic bowls, glasses etc. using appropriate paints.

Best of luck!

Start Class?

Is there a particular reason why this article is still a start class? It seems like it would be sufficient to move up to a higher class if it is well organized and I am not missing a serious problem with it. I was just wondering if anyone had looked at it to see if it was ready for a different ranking. Fact-of-the-matter (talk) 20:54, 10 August 2009 (UTC)

 Done - Set to B-class. I hesitated between C and B, but I think B is more suitable. This article cover a very large range of calligraphies, from many various traditions. In a such introductory page, we don't have to request large and complete 30 lines introductions on rare calligraphies such the Mayan one. This article have this shape, because rare calligraphic tradition have been less documented. Yug (talk) 21:42, 10 August 2009 (UTC)

Definition and subject matter covered

Strictly speaking, the urban subculture folk art of wall-writing (the neologism teichography has been proposed: http://newsarch.rootsweb.com/th/read/ABOUT-WORDS/2001-04/0986958974) falls under the definition of calligraphy. Because it developed out of spray-paint graffiti tagging in the 1970s, apart from existing Euro-Western calligraphic traditions, the label 'graffiti' has stuck, though it is no longer appropriate for the truly artistic wall writing. Clearly this is a new tradition in calligraphy. The tools/technology, media, styles, and display surfaces are different from those used in conventional calligraphy, but the way mural calligraphy has evolved over the three or so decades since it took root parallels many of the innovations in other traditions: Wildstyle and Chinese caoshu; elaborately abstract name writing and Ottoman tughras, to name just two parallels. I submit that mural calligraphy or teichography has matured enough as a form that it clearly deserves to be included as much as any of the older traditions and should be included in any revision of the article. Kiwehtin (talk) 17:46, 3 August 2009 (UTC)

I tend to agree cautiously. It seems to me that graffiti could be mentioned (at least one sentence) in the Western calligraphy section. Part of graffiti certainly does fall under the definition. Cvereb (talk) 23:41, 11 March 2010 (UTC)

At the very least Graffiti could be in the 'See also' section. There certainly is a relationship between graffiti and calligraphy. Cvereb (talk) 23:52, 11 March 2010 (UTC)

See also

The 'See also' section is a bit cluttered: including Pen and Paper seems a bit broad and silly (or just put them on the same line) while Codex Seraphinianus and Ellesmere manuscript are too fine-grained (one cannot go on listing every single beautiful manuscript). There are even more outlandish and/or self-promoting links. Cvereb (talk) 23:54, 11 March 2010 (UTC)

Iranian Calligraphy

In the section "Iranian Calligraphy" there is a reference to a main article with the title of "Persian Calligraphy". And aslo throughout the whole material in this section the term "persian" has been mostly used. Is it not necessary to change the title to "Persian Calligraphy" or all other "Persians" to "Iranian" in order to preserve the consistency of the article?? Thanks for your time. --Shuhin trixx (talk) 10:07, 9 May 2009 (UTC)

 Done Yug (talk) 18:37, 11 May 2009 (UTC)

---

Persian (or Iranian) calligraphy is part of the "Arabic" or Islamic calligraphy. The "Persian writing system" is basically the Arabic writing system with a few more letters (and a few less). Arabic, Persian and Turkish (Ottoman) calligraphy were/are part of a relatively unified cultural world (see Bernard Lewis, or the French "Atlas des peuples d'Orient"). After all, there isn't a separate section on French or Spanish calligraphy. Before the 14th century or so, the same calligraphic styles were used throughout the Muslim world including Iran, with slight regional variants, for example Eastern Kufic vs. Western Kufic, Persian Naskh vs. Arabic Naskh. Only in the 14th century or so did Nasta'liq, a script specific to the Persian-speaking regions, appear. Calligraphy is used inside and out of mosques throughout the Islamic world, whether in Iran, in Turey or in Irak. 84.97.82.66 (talk) 23:23, 11 March 2010 (UTC)

I'll immediately move the "Persian calligraphy" section after the "Arabic calligraphy" section, as Persian calligraphy proceeds from Arabic calligraphy. 84.97.82.66 (talk) 23:23, 11 March 2010 (UTC)

"Islamic" is a relevant word to describe the common cultural heritage of the Arabs, Persians and Ottomans. There should be a section on Islamic calligraphy, then two or rather three subsections on Arabic, Persian and Ottoman calligraphy.

• Islamic calligraphy
  • Arabic calligraphy
  • Persian calligraphy
  • Ottoman calligraphy

What do you think about it? I'll try to resist the urge to tamper immediately. 84.97.82.66 (talk) 23:28, 11 March 2010 (UTC)

Similarly, there should probably be :

• Southern Asian calligraphy
  • Indian calligraphy
  • Nepalese calligraphy
  • Tibetan calligraphy...

Not sure this is right, though. Any opinion? Cvereb (talk) 23:56, 11 March 2010 (UTC)

Support, create super-families seems an interesting way to walk. : ]Yug (talk) 05:18, 14 March 2010 (UTC)

I will think about East Asia which is my field of expertise：

• East-Asian calligraphy
  • Chinese calligraphy (as mother style), then
  • Japanese calligraphy [History + Technical specificities compare to Chinese]
  • Korean calligraphy [History + Technical specificities compare to Chinese]

I don't really know the extand of Western calligraphy. This family need someone's help. Latin first ? ; then cyrilic ? Yug (talk) 05:23, 14 March 2010 (UTC)

---

See also section: #New outline Yug (talk) 09:57, 15 May 2010 (UTC)

Abstract Calligraphy

I would like to see a new section added for abstract or modern calligraphy. I think there is quite an amount of work that would qualify under this heading. Max Ernst's Maximiliana springs to mind. 75.168.107.21 (talk) 23:41, 7 June 2010 (UTC)

I know nothing on this field. If you have some knowledge, just go ahead, edit the articles and create a section. If that a part of Western calligraphy, then contribute within the specific article Western calligraphy. I will be happy to read such section : ] Yug (talk) 08:03, 8 June 2010 (UTC)

Mongolian Calligraphy

See Mongolian Calligraphy in Contemporary Art--Юе Артеміс (talk) 08:10, 18 June 2010 (UTC)

Cyrillic caligraphy

Main article: Cyrillic calligraphy

Maybe somebody knowledgeable could add something about the cyrillic calligraphy? WOW (talk) 14:49, 21 December 2007 (UTC)

That would be a worthy addition. ≈ jossi ≈ (talk) 20:20, 23 February 2008 (UTC)

Slavic calligraphy:

• National Union of Calligraphers
• International Exhibition of Calligraphy

--UeArtemis (talk) 20:16, 31 May 2010 (UTC)

Brief Historical Information on Development of Writing and Calligraphy in Ukraine

Without going into disputes as to the existence of proto-Cyrillic writing, the origins of the Cyrillic writing and without touching upon the history of uncial writing, which is common for Slaves, we will start with the Ukrainian semi-uncial writing. This original semi-uncial writing of Volyn writers was used by Ivan Fedorov for making of the fonts of the famous Ostrog Bible published in Ostrog in 1581. This semi-uncial writing is distinguished by the small size face, small contract between the primary and connective strokes, a rather free graphic interpretation of the letters, in which not all of the main strokes are continued to the upper and lower line of the font.

The Galich and Volyn semi-uncials of the 16th century are very original. The influence of Gothic fonts can be discovered in them (in the drawing of letter A, in acute serifs).

The original graphic design of fonts of the Peresopnitsky Gospel created in Volyn (1556/1561) attracts attention. This is the summit of the Ukrainian book art of the 16th century. The Gospel font is referred by many paleographs to late uncial font, in which individual letters reproduce the uncial of the 11th-12th centuries; other letters are upgraded (Ж, З, М, О). The middle line is raised high in the font (from the height of the main stroke).

But the originality of the Ukrainian shorthand should be specially noted. A well-known Ukrainian paleograph, Ivan Kamanin, singles out the four periods in the Ukrainian shorthand development in his article entitled Materials on the History of South Russian Writing in the 15th-17th Centuries. In each new historical period, the font was exposed to external influence (of Latin font through Poland, northern Russian shorthand etc.). As a result of complex development, the original Ukrainian shorthand took shape by the 17th century. Under the influence of Latin graphemes, letters N were written. Letters Ж and Ф were written very originally (modified at the level of graphemes). Undulating elements and different types of loops (vertical, horizontal, connective loops) as well as saber diagonal elements produced a major impact on the graphic of writing.

So-called firstplowing and ligatures were used very subtly and resourcefully. At the start and at the end of the message, a sheet was decorated with temperament baroque flourishes.

The 18th century brought civil unified writing to Ukraine, the 19th century, household writing, with certain reminiscences of the 16th century short-hand. The biggest reformers of the Ukrainian font in the 20th century were graphic artists – Vassily Krichevsky and Georgy Narbut.

V. Krichevsky passed the way from the artist stylisizing short-hand fonts to a constructivist. G. Narbut, a pupil of Bilibin’s and a friend of Sergey Chekhonin, a Moscow graphic artist, having returned to Ukraine in 1918, created his original style in the drawn font in book design in a short term. He managed to fond empire, baroque, ancient Russian fonts in the furnace of its creative individuality and to adapt them to modern life.

Narbut had a whole galaxy of pupils and followers – M. Kirnarsky, R. Lozovsky, R. Lisovsky, A. Sereda, I. Padalka. The brilliant stylists, type designers and illustrators, P. Kovzhun and M. Butovich, who went to the West after the revolution, are not almost known to a wide range of artists.

The 1940’s and 1950’s can be called the time of domineering of the ‘decorative’ style in script, when ornaments gained the upper hand over the constructive and imagery nature of font. Such well-known masters as I. Khotipok, Yu. Yunak and V. Fatalchuk, V. Khomenko, A. Ponomarenko worked in these years. In the second half of the 20th century, the best Ukrainian calligraphers restored the link with old-time traditions. Connecting them with the most advanced achievements in the field of book modeling, artists of the script entered a new quality level of use of historical calligraphy. V. Yurchishin and V. Chebanik can be called the biggest calligraphy masters of the 1960’s/1980’s.

In these years, P. Chobit’ko performed active work in the Kyiv Art College. He planted love for script to several generations of young artists. Since 1986, the author of this text continued teaching. In 2006, the Font Life, an all-Ukrainian exhibition, took place in Kyiv. Regions of the country were represented at it. Undergraduates and postgraduates of the Kharkov Design and Art Academy presented interesting calligraphic work. In spring 2008, the Cyrillic Feast exhibition as arranged for by young lecturers of the academy and enthusiastic calligraphers was held. I came across the problem of insufficient visual information on historical handwriting when I taught font in the Graphic Art Chair, National Academy of Fine Arts and Architecture (Kyiv, Ukraine). Together with students, I started to gather samples and to copy old Slavonic historical fonts. The 15-year work resulted in the Esthetics of Ukrainian Script album published in the Kyiv-based Gramota publishing house in 2007.

--Юе Артеміс (talk) 10:36, 15 June 2010 (UTC)

As written in ancient Ruthenia--Юе Артеміс (talk) 10:50, 15 June 2010 (UTC)

Sorry, is Cyrillic calligraphy = Slavonic lettering ? If yes, then your expertise is welcome on Slavonic lettering ;) Yug (talk) 13:46, 17 June 2010 (UTC)

I think yes. And the Western Calligraphy is the Western lettering. Calligraphy is an art of lettering/writing by hand. :) Юе Артеміс (talk) 08:02, 18 June 2010 (UTC)

• Origins of Calligraphic Illumination of the Holy Bible in Belarus
• The history of russian writing = Slavonic lettering??? —Preceding unsigned comment added by UeArtemis (talk • contribs) 08:14, 18 June 2010 (UTC)

Calligula

I deleted the following :

"[Calligraphy] is named after the Roman Gaius Julius Caesar Augustus Germanicus, otherwise known as Caligula.",

Since the article already expose a greek ethymology, this association Caligula-Calligraphy seems rather strange and misleading. Sources need. --Yug (talk) 06:49, 11 November 2010 (UTC)

Graffitis

1. I'm not sure Graffiti belong to "other calligraphy traditions". Maybe it's belong more to the Western tradition, or maybe to a new, mordern pen based tradition.
2. More generally, I'm asking myself if the cultural division (West/East Asia/Islamic/Iranian) is suitable. I'm starting to think we should attack this calligraphy topic by the technical FACTS : the tools used. Thus, by example, Islamic and Iranian calligraphy belong to the same family, with different alphabet and variant style.

Some opinions on this 2 points ? (please use "Point 1." and "Point 2." for your answers~ ) Yug (talk) 06:44, 23 November 2010 (UTC)

I believe both your points are related, and propose to address them together.

Based on the technical facts as you suggest (at least the technical facts as they are apparent to me, I hasten to add) graffiti shares little with western calligraphy. All that springs to mind is the fact that the modern graffiti tradition developed mainly in a country that uses the Latin alphabet. In a technical sense, a pen and a brush are more closely related than either is too a brush. However, culturally it seems much more closely related to the Western tradition than any other.

Furthermore, the section on graffiti presents no citations and is very poorly written. I would suggest the best course of action is to simply delete it until someone has the time and knowledge to write it up using citations and actual English. And I have neither.

--122.108.124.195 (talk) 09:16, 5 January 2011 (UTC)

I'm not a native speaker neither ;)

Please clarify a bit "a pen and a brush are more closely related than either is too a brush". I wait your clarification before to reply.

Then, I don't like the 'delete because unsourced'. If the section make sense (fair English and reasonable statements), let's keep it. Then, stay the question: does graffiti belong to the Western calligraphy, a new calligraphic style, or a new art (not calligraphy).

Yug (talk) 15:01, 5 January 2011 (UTC)

Sloppy Handwriting

Is it just me or is this new section on sloppy handrwriting not relevant to the subject matter? I would suggest it is deleted. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 94.125.134.149 (talk) 13:46, 26 January 2011 (UTC)

^I agree. 74.32.239.125 (talk) 16:08, 2 March 2011 (UTC)

File:Gold calligraphy.jpg Nominated for Deletion

An image used in this article, File:Gold calligraphy.jpg, has been nominated for deletion at Wikimedia Commons in the following category: Deletion requests November 2011 What should I do? Don't panic; a discussion will now take place over on Commons about whether to remove the file. This gives you an opportunity to contest the deletion, although please review Commons guidelines before doing so. If the image is non-free then you may need to upload it to Wikipedia (Commons does not allow fair use) If the image isn't freely licensed and there is no fair use rationale then it cannot be uploaded or used. This notification is provided by a Bot --CommonsNotificationBot (talk) 12:23, 9 November 2011 (UTC)

Picture caption

Please change - can someone search texts and find a source for what "Vietnamese calligraphy" "Vietnamese writing Chinese characters" is called in reliable sources. In ictu oculi (talk) 03:25, 1 June 2013 (UTC)

It's called "Han-Nom". See Viet Nam News and VietnamNet. Kauffner (talk) 07:36, 1 June 2013 (UTC)

Hi Kauffner, it is not called "Han-Nom," as the link shows "Han-Nom" in the article title means "Han and Nom", the text continues "Han Chinese script and Nom (Chinese-based ancient Vietnamese script) have played an important role in linking the past." In any case the question is addressed to editors at this article. In ictu oculi (talk) 13:44, 1 June 2013 (UTC)

The news article says, "In the past Hanoians of all ages visited the Temple of Literature on Van Mieu Street on the first day of the Lunar New Year to ask a calligrapher to write a Han-Nom word for them." Kauffner (talk) 13:52, 1 June 2013 (UTC)

Well this is why we use print sources. In ictu oculi (talk) 13:55, 1 June 2013 (UTC)

Referencing system

It would be wise to stick with one referencing method, rather than two. ≈ jossi ≈ (talk) 01:33, 30 April 2007 (UTC)

Furthermore, it would be even wiser to stick to the one given by the publishing entity. Could the entire article adopt the media wiki referencing (i.e. the IEEE style)? DrGranit (talk) 12:18, 25 June 2013 (UTC)

Hebrew calligraphy

I want to let editors know that I plan to add a section to the article on Hebrew calligraphy, so that the addition will not come as a surprise. But it is not clear to me how the sections of the article are organized; and, therefore, I am not sure where the Hebrew section would be located. Is the material arranged geographically, going from East to West? Malcolm Schosha (talk) 21:27, 3 April 2008 (UTC)

Don't be worry for that, myself or an other can change its place within in 10 seconds.

For a good looking/plan, you can take a look to both Chinese and Western calligraphy sections, which are the "Feature sections" in this articles. Your section is welcome ! Yug 17:30, 21 April 2008 (UTC)

Btw, I studied with a student sofer and am mildly familiar with the laws pertaining to jewish caligraphy. I'll help edit if you like. 74.138.78.83 (talk) 20:10, 31 October 2008 (UTC)

Why does the Hebrew link redirect to Hebrew_cursive, instead of the Hebrew_alphabet entry, which actually contains the word calligraphy? Would that paragraph be sufficient to put on this page, or does their need to be a unique entry. Somehow Sefer_Torah should also be included, along with a link to the Sofer article which discusses the calligraphers, soferim, and the unique halakah related to writing Sefer_Torah. Melanie E. Hughes (talk)17:46 11 August 2014 — Preceding unsigned comment added by 149.160.118.43 (talk) 17:48, 11 August 2014 (UTC)

"Arabs also adapted the Arabic alphabet to fit their language"

Under the Persian section, there is a meaningless paragraph that has nothing to do with Persian Calligraphy at. The author should display Persian contribution in Calligraphy.

I see the following as just some random jabs against Arabs and the Arabic.

"After the expansion of "Persian Empire" around the world, Arabs also adapted the Arabic alphabet to fit their language, which reduced the Arabic alphabet to 28 letters from 32 letters in Persian alphabet. The hypothesis of such devolution in Arabic language center and therefore the Arabic alphabet, goes back to restricted Arabic literature resources until the development of Islamic influence around the world."

Whoever wrote this paragraph should read Arabic alphabet. where did you get these facts from? 28 letters from 32? restricted Arabic literature? Asd1815 (talk) 20:30, 15 October 2014 (UTC)

Ancient Times

In the ancient time people used calligraphy to take notes — Preceding unsigned comment added by 24.140.69.89 (talk) 14:01, 8 October 2017 (UTC)

New outline

New Section Cycle: Divide by cultural sphere & technique

Advices to edit:

Family tree type: Western, East-Asian, Arabian, South-Asian. NOTE: Follow the example of section #East Asian Calligraphy As for western calligraphies, or East-Asian. First section is for the "mother style", i.e. « Chinese calligraphy ». Outlie example: East-Asian Calligraphies (Names), Technique : including tools description, move, and what make the differences between writers Historical evolution : chronological, with styles' evolution, great masters, and innovations across time. Influences/Forks : with daughter styles specificities (i.e.: Japanese, Korean) ; arts which have been influenced by this calligraphy ; and typographic out-spring (which are not hand-written and thus not "calligraphy") / in modernity. Forks: Japanese calligraphy (5lines introduction) & Korean calligraphy (5lines introduction). For each : short Historic & Technical specificities compare to Chinese Other arts: painting, type fonts. Group type section: as for Isolated calligraphy. This article can't be too specific on each of those isolated/minor calligraphies. Each isolated style deserve a 10 line section, such as : Isolated calligraphies: Mayan calligraphy: a. Technique-tools (~2 lines); b. History (style/appearance) (~6-8 lines) ; c. Influence/legacy (~3 lines). Repeat for other isolated style. This give us a systematic framework to follow. It allow to add need content (technique !, influence), avoid information duplication, and so a clean up in this article. Please be bold : Edit !

Calligraphies to talk about and to group

Proposed & lead by:	Plan
Yug (talk)	Western calligraphy (Latine:) Name, concepts, techniques (Latine:) Evolution Influences & Forks: Forks/Other scritps: Cyrilic, Slavonic ; Other arts: painting, fonts, etc.
Yug (talk)	East-Asian calligraphy Chinese: Name, concepts, techniques Chinese: Evolution Influence & forks: Forks/Other scritps: Japanese, Korean calligraphy Other arts: painting, fonts, etc.
84.97.82.66 (talk)	Islamic calligraphy Arabic calligraphy Persian calligraphy Ottoman calligraphy
Cvereb (talk)	Southern Asian calligraphy Indian calligraphy Nepalese calligraphy Tibetan calligraphy...
Yug	Isolated calligraphies ?

Yug (talk) 10:20, 15 May 2010 (UTC)

Keep that. Do not archive this section. Yug (talk) 22:42, 26 January 2020 (UTC)

Gothic script

At Gothic script, a disambiguation article, there is a paragraph about calligraphy which really needs a more appropriate home. Would one of the regulars here like to re-home it, please? --John Maynard Friedman (talk) 09:41, 7 October 2020 (UTC)

Hand (writing style) has no target

Hand (writing style) redirects here but has no recipient section. In fact the term "hand" is used freely in the article without ever being defined. Would someone care to fix? --John Maynard Friedman (talk) 19:09, 30 September 2021 (UTC)

Wiki Education Foundation-supported course assignment

This article is or was the subject of a Wiki Education Foundation-supported course assignment. Further details are available on the course page. Student editor(s): Jmcnulty002.

Above undated message substituted from Template:Dashboard.wikiedu.org assignment by PrimeBOT (talk) 16:34, 16 January 2022 (UTC)

"East Asia" is misleading

There is a section for the Islamic world but not for the Sinosphere, using "East Asia" here kind of implies that the calligraphy used by the Mongolians is somehow related to Chinese calligraphy while Vietnamese calligraphy is not, this is despite the fact that this article's entry on Vietnamese calligraphy clearly state that it's derived from the Chinese tradition. As the article about the supposed "East Asian cultural sphere" is moved to the Sinosphere I'm not sure if we should use the term "East Asia" to refer to Sinitic cultures as it could be confused with the geographical concept of East Asia. -- — Donald Trung (talk) 11:08, 27 May 2023 (UTC)

Apparently it was correct, but in 2022 a user moved it out. This same user seems to be pushing the same POV on other articles, perhaps it's better to rename the section "Sinosphere". --Donald Trung (talk) 14:15, 27 May 2023 (UTC)

Orphaned references in Calligraphy

I check pages listed in Category:Pages with incorrect ref formatting to try to fix reference errors. One of the things I do is look for content for orphaned references in wikilinked articles. I have found content for some of Calligraphy's orphans, the problem is that I found more than one version. I can't determine which (if any) is correct for this article, so I am asking for a sentient editor to look it over and copy the correct ref content into this article.

Reference named "auto":

• From York: UK Census (2011). "Local Area Report – Yorkshire and The Humber Region (2013265923)". Nomis. Office for National Statistics. Retrieved 7 February 2018.
• From Italic type: "Fairbank". Monotype. Retrieved 30 June 2015.
• From Suyat: Orejas, Tonette. "Protect all PH writing systems, heritage advocates urge Congress".
• From Felt: Wonderful West Virginia. Department of Natural Resources. 2005.
• From Quilting: Johnson, Julie. "History of Quilting". Center for Great Plain Studies. Emporia State University. Retrieved 31 January 2014.
• From Nepal: lawrence, harris, george; division, library of congress. federal research; matles, savada, andrea. "Nepal and Bhutan : country studies".{{cite web}}: CS1 maint: multiple names: authors list (link)
• From Stele: G. Azarpay, Urartian Art and Artifacts, 1968, p32.
• From UV marker: The Art of Manliness, (2014). Man Knowledge: The History of Invisible Ink. [online] Available at: http://www.artofmanliness.com/2011/09/09/man-knowledge-the-history-of-invisible-ink/ [Accessed 31 Oct. 2014].
• From Oblique type: "Fonts". W3.org. Retrieved 12 November 2011.
• From UNESCO: "UNESCO adopts anti-Israel resolution on al-Aqsa Mosque". aljazeera.com.
• From Charlemagne: Barbero, Alessandro (10 September 2004). Charlemagne: Father of a Continent. University of California Press. pp. 12–. ISBN 978-0-520-23943-2.
• From East Asia: "United Nations Statistics Division – Standard Country and Area Codes Classifications (M49)". United Nations Statistics Division. 2015-05-06. Retrieved 2010-07-24.

I apologize if any of the above are effectively identical; I am just a simple computer program, so I can't determine whether minor differences are significant or not. AnomieBOT⚡ 21:01, 4 June 2018(UTC)

And more. There is a citation to "de Hamel 2001a" with no target. It could be any of these. --𝕁𝕄𝔽 (talk) 00:59, 23 January 2024 (UTC)

Post-2023 clean up

Hello there, I made a writing push few years back expanding Western and East Asian calligraphies section. Since then the article got enriched with a lot of diverse traditions, which is nice. But this article has also degraded : fragmatation, over illustration, lack of overall organisation. I moved away from this field and can only do few minor edits as I did today, but this beautiful article is in need of an overall rewrite and clean up. May I suggest the following axis of improvements with the example of well documented East Asian calligraphy :

• Top level section for major tradition. Then level 2 === sections :
  • 0) Overview: few phrases
  • a) Evolution/History: main content.
  • b) Technique/Tools: basics on tools, their uses ; optional illusatration(s).
  • c) Styles : major variations such as cursive, regular, etc.
  • d) Influences/Schools/Traditions : groups the root tradition (Chinese) and other traditions. Mentions briefly Japanese, Korean, Vietnamese, Mongol with their respective differences.
• Illustrations : limit to 3 per gallery. Keep it minimal since we have 6 major tradition and ~20 national traditions to document.
• Move around: Vietnam should be with Eastern Asian group, in it's "Influences/Schools/Traditions" sub-section. Philippine in South Asia group. Eastern Europe could be into Western's "Influences/Schools/Traditions" sub-section. Yug (talk) 🐲 16:10, 31 January 2024 (UTC)