Talk:Cecil Sheridan

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Mick McGilligan's Daughter

Authorship of the song Mick Magilligan's Daughter: The Irish Traditional Music Archive ^[1] lists in its on-line catalogue a book published in 1909 that contains this song. This is a year before Cecil Sheridan was born. The song is anonymous.Roryjohnston (talk) 04:17, 31 August 2015 (UTC)[reply]

^ www.itma.ie

If you can identify the specific reference mentioned the article can be amended accordingly. Jim Bruce (talk) 08:05, 1 September 2015 (UTC)[reply]

Wehman Bros.' Pocket-Size Irish Song Book No 3, containing a choice collection of 171 Songs, 1909 Roryjohnston (talk) 22:43, 13 September 2015 (UTC)[reply]

A search on the ITMA site produced the following result: 'Your search for Wehman Bros.' Pocket-Size Irish Song Book No 3 found 0 Results.' A number of variations on the search term failed also. Can you provide a direct link to the book? Jim Bruce (talk) 16:28, 14 September 2015 (UTC)[reply]

A search on ITMA for "Wehman" brings up 13 items. The fourth is the book in question. http://www.itmacatalogues.ie/ics-wpd/exec/icswppro.dll?AC=GET_RECORD&XC=/ics-wpd/exec/icswppro.dll&BU=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.itmacatalogues.ie%2F&TN=ITMAieCsrecs&SN=AUTO30231&SE=1226&RN=3&MR=20&TR=0&TX=1000&ES=0&CS=1&XP=&RF=ITMAieSRECSReport&EF=&DF=ITMA.ie+SRECS&RL=0&EL=0&DL=0&NP=3&ID=&MF=CSSPAMSG.INI&MQ=ITMAieQuickSearch&TI=1&DT=&ST=0&IR=70559&NR=0&NB=0&SV=0&SS=0&BG=&FG=&QS=QuickSearch&OEX=ISO-8859-1&OEH=ISO-8859-1 It gives McGulligan instead of Magilligan; other variations are common. Roryjohnston (talk) 04:21, 19 October 2015 (UTC)[reply]

Your original post referred to a book listed on ITMA's online catalogue, which I erroneously took to mean the 'Online Collections'. A search on the latter page produces three results for Wehman. The closest to your source is Six hundred and seventeen Irish songs and ballads, no date of publication however. This book can be downloaded in full from the site as a pdf. It is therefore possible to check the contents pages for any reference to Magilligan or McGulligan's Daughter. No such reference can be found.

The book to which you refer is indeed listed in a search of the Online catalogue, i.e. Wehman Bros.' Pocket-Size Irish Song Book No 3, containing a choice collection of 171 Songs, published in 1909. According to the catalogue entry, this book contains the words of a song entitled "McGulligan's Daughter". Assuming that this is the same song as that attributed to Cecil Sheridan, then he could not have composed it. However, it is not possible to access the text of the book online to verify this. ITMA appears to hold a photocopy of the original which they say is in very bad condition. As against that, the Irish Press and Irish Independent (5/1/1980) both state that Sheridan was the author of "Mick McGilligan's Daughter". Of course if you have seen the Wehman book and are satisfied that the two songs are identical then feel free to edit the article. Jim Bruce (talk) 19:10, 19 October 2015 (UTC)[reply]

The actual full title listed in ITMA's on-line catalogue is "McGulligan's Daughter, Mary Ann". Searches on the Internet reveal many entries for the well-known Irish song "Mick Magilligan's Daughter, Mary Ann" with variations of the spelling of the names. James Joyce says "Mac Milligan". These are obviously the same song. The Irish Press and Independent had the same defective source. It would be a pity for Wikipedia to continue to propagate this error. Roryjohnston (talk) 20:40, 19 October 2015 (UTC)[reply]

I have added a note to the article to the effect that there is a dispute over authorship of the song.Jim Bruce (talk) 08:32, 20 October 2015 (UTC)[reply]

First off, this is obviously an area where there is a dearth of reliable sources, so we have to make do with what we can find. Bear in mind that newspaper articles – especially obituaries – are not "reliable sources" in the same sense as peer-reviewed journals. If the facts are plausible, they are unlikely to be too rigorously checked. So, here is the evidence trail:

Mudcat Café, 15 September 2015: "I don't see any connection to Cecil Sheridan—perhaps there isn't any." And later, "Wikipedia says Cecil Sheridan wrote 'Mick McGilligan's Daughter.'"
Mudcat Café, 21 October 2008: "Mick McGilligan's Daughter (Louis A. Tierney)."
Joe Lynch: Old Time Irish Medley: Mick McGilligan's Daughter credited to Cecil Sheridan – clearly the same song.
Denis Johnston, The Old Lady Says No! (1929): the same lyrics again, obviously not penned by a 19-year-old who hasn't entered show-business yet.
Ulysses Annotated, pp. 20-21: "An anonymous Irish bawdy song; only a clean, relatively recent version, 'Mick McGilligan's Daughter, Mary Anne' by Louis A. Tierney, survives in print" – same lyrics again.
I can't find dates for Louis A. Tierney, but there is this: Poster for an opera written by Louis Tierney, to be performed November 1918.

The evidence is compelling, therefore, that the song is the same as the one in the Pocket-Size Irish Song Book of 1909, and that Sheridan performed the version written by Louis A. Tierney. Sheridan did, however, compose "Hannigan's Hooley": the sheet-music is available in the National Library. --Scolaire (talk) 12:28, 29 October 2015 (UTC)[reply]

The evidence is indeed compelling! The article has been amended appropriately. Let's leave the question of future royalties to the lawyers. Jim Bruce (talk) 19:46, 29 October 2015 (UTC)[reply]

[1] www.itma.ie

[1]