Talk:Chav/Archive 6

This is an archive of past discussions about Chav. Do not edit the contents of this page. If you wish to start a new discussion or revive an old one, please do so on the current talk page.

Archive 1

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Archive 4

Regional variations

Because there had been a discussion about adding other names in the UK for "chavs", I added a table of regional names for chavs (neds, charve(r)s, scallies, townies etc.) and then more people added some others from other areas of the UK.

But this has been deleted. I'm not going to add all the information back in, as I feel an edit war may commence. So at the moment, the article is not as complete as it could be. IndieSinger (talk) 20:48, 15 November 2009 (UTC)

There is a wide range of alternative terms, or at least terms used in a similar way, including townie, scally, ned, kev, charver, smick, spide, moake, steek, bazza, scuffhead, stig, skanger, yarco, and kappa slapper (females only). See World Wide Words: Chav and In the name of the Charver (sections "Results and Analysis" and "Word Etymologies") for more. Whether any or all of these are truly synonymous with "chav" may be debatable. Are these worth including in the article? leevclarke (talk) 20:23, 18 January 2010 (UTC)

chavs are usually from the north east area as from newcatle Sunderland gateshead or shields and usually speak in. Geordie accent and in nautical slang. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 90.212.15.122 (talk) 16:33, 5 May 2010 (UTC)

Serbian word for Chav is DizelashValsodar (talk) 17:21, 27 August 2010 (UTC)

I disagree that "rednecks", "hillbillies" and "white trash" are the same thing as Chav. Fundamentally, you're looking at disenfranchised disorderly youth. Red Necks, White Trash and Hillbiillies are all ages and generally peaceful although can be seen as racist and intolerant. I haven't changed it but think as someone from North America who is familiar with those terms, we've got that one wrong. You may be after 'gangsta' or something like that. I'll leave it to someone with formal knowledge of the use of these words to add more or to revise.

Someone should remove the references to Guido in the last paragraph in the etymology section. First off, the word Guido has italian american connotations. The word chav does not appear to have any connection with italian american stereotypes. See wikipedia's own page for Guido. Also the source cited is the online oxford english dictionary, which one cannot access without opening an account. I would make the edits myself, but the page is protected.66.61.83.16 (talk) 16:00, 29 November 2011 (UTC)

Totally inaccurate

Hilarious article. So completely inaccurate as to be laughable. A discussion of the term Chav without a single mention of Chatham in Kent where the term originates from Gypsy culture since the mid-1800s. Dear oh dear. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 76.94.119.237 (talk) 15:33, 27 July 2009 (UTC)

Do you have a source? Oh dear indeed! Frognsausage (talk) 22:16, 30 September 2009 (UTC)

This is correct. The slang term for chav used derogatorily originated from Chatham in Kent. The obvious problem with identifying sources when dealing with where slang originated from is that it is not until a word use is widespread that people even begin to question where it comes from. It is common knowledge in the area near Chatham (Northwest Kent), that it originated there. There's a reason a lot of locals call it "Chavham", not "Chatham"...

have a wander... "chavo" = boy http://romani.humanities.manchester.ac.uk/db/wordlist.html

"cavesko" of the boy... http://romani.uni-graz.at/romlex/lex.cgi?st=chave&rev=n&cl1=rmww&cl2=en&fi=&pm=in&ic=y&im=y&wc=

gadze... (gadjee) http://romani.humanities.manchester.ac.uk/files/21_angloromanisample.shtml —Preceding unsigned comment added by 87.114.36.12 (talk) 13:22, 31 December 2009 (UTC)

I'm concerned about the definition. I don't think "chav" is confined to teenagers at all - the use I hear made of it refers admittedly not to the elderly but otherwise to all age groups. It may have been originally confined to teenage males, but it isn't now. Basically all those given to wearing branded sportsgear, gold chains and rings from Argos, baseball caps, "designer" gear (real or fake), having tattoos and so on. It describes people belonging to a particularly crass subset of the British working class. Would someone who has edited this article consider amending the definition to take into account the wider connotations the term enjoys today?82.132.139.102 (talk) 02:00, 8 January 2010 (UTC)

I was personally under the impression the word chav came from an acronym of "Council House, Anti-social and Violent" (first heard explicitly on Radio 1 a few years ago when the word first emerged into mainstream media use) This is related to the depiction of chavs and chav culture as aggressive and working class Gediness (talk) —Preceding undated comment added 12:33, 11 October 2010 (UTC).

Throwing my two-penneth in to the ring... I was born and grew up in the Medway towns (I'm 47 years old (as of 2012)) and the word was in common usage amongst me and my friends in the early eighties. It almost certainly dates back way before then as my father, now in his 90s was using the expression since way back when and his father before him. As far as I know the word has its probable origin in the Yiddish word 'chavarim' which just means 'friend', 'comrade' or just plain old 'mate'. 'Chatham Average' (which doesn't even make any sense and is equally commonly cited as Cheltham average) and 'Council house and violent' are bacronyms which are straining credibility to breaking point.92.40.254.99 (talk) —Preceding undated comment added 11:17, 3 May 2012 (UTC).

I, also, am unhappy with the description of it being THE "working class youth subculture" - which is entirely wrong. I'm a working class youth in the UK and am -not- a chav. Chavs are antisocial - take it from someone who lives in Newcastle, where there's plenty of people happy to let everyone on the carriage of the metro know that "Shields boys rule the prisons like". — Preceding unsigned comment added by Djwkd (talk • contribs) 11:11, 6 May 2012 (UTC)

Worst article ever

And the talk page is awful as well. 62.30.54.79 (talk) 00:30, 17 January 2009 (UTC)

i dont understand what is going on here?? —Preceding unsigned comment added by 76.222.240.194 (talk) 23:31, 4 January 2009 (UTC)

I would agree. Also, someone uses "folk devil" as a refrance point... Which is out of context. 'Folk Devils' was coinned in the 1960's as a means of describing the attitude of the media towards 'Mods' and 'Rockers' and Brighton riots and so on... It has little, in fact nothing to do with Chavs. Someone doesn't know their sociology... —Preceding unsigned comment added by 82.132.136.149 (talk) 19:59, 14 May 2009 (UTC)

"They listen to mainly MC" - aside from the weird grammar, what does MC mean? Do you mean MC's as in rappers? I'm not British, so maybe I'm missing something. --80.57.114.72 (talk) 15:03, 31 October 2009 (UTC)

Where is the matching quotation mark for, "Hated by the community. According to Michael Quinion[3] and others... ? "Pij" (talk) 18:58, 20 December 2009 (UTC)

Chav talk

Chavs use words such as "innit" meaning "is not it" (Isn't it) and "blud" which means "friend". They also use "ite" meaing hello. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Kwjump (talk • contribs) 13:01, 13 March 2009 (UTC)

"Innit" is a common London expression, innit. Lots of non-chavs say it there. Blud - West Indian? Is there a dictionary of chavspeak somewhere? Totnesmartin (talk) 18:41, 13 March 2009 (UTC)

urbandictionary.com has the answers... AltitudeJunkie (talk) 14:55, 13 April 2009 (UTC)

"it" ain't a real word, it's short for innit, innit.Contributions/79.79.75.116 (talk) 21:13, 15 June 2009 (UTC)

They also sometime times use the incorrect phrase; "I ain't done nothin'" literally I haven't done nothing, but supposed to mean I haven't done anything. Innit. 92.7.179.26 (talk) 08:03, 2 December 2010 (UTC)

                         ^jokes^ 78.8

6.197.76 (talk) 12:46, 28 July 2010 (UTC)

Jock

Is a chav something like a jock? ...Gibby is gibby (talk) 02:02, 9 April 2009 (UTC)

No, a Jock is from Scotland, where chavs are referred to as neds. pablo_hablo. 09:13, 9 April 2009 (UTC)

In fact I think Gibby is probably from the US, where 'jock' has a very different meaning. A chav is by no means a jock in that sense. A chav is probably more like a city dwelling redneck... Is some sort of clarificaion required in the aricle for our international 'bredren'? AltitudeJunkie (talk) 14:58, 13 April 2009 (UTC)

The phrase you want is "blud." It is a mispronounciation of the word "blood" and indicates a strong friendship/kinship bewteen two unrelated people who, regradless of genetics, consider themselves family. Although it is and can be said casually. It is not a Chav word, though as many words it can be adopted and used outside of the subculture in which birthed it. 82.132.136.149 (talk) 20:04, 14 May 2009 (UTC)Know_all_geek_girl

The thread you want to reply to is "Chav talk", not this one. 85.5.38.115 (talk) 14:16, 13 March 2010 (UTC)

Lad in Australian is totally different in meaning from chav. Bebofpenge (talk) 07:17, 25 October 2009 (UTC)

In my experience having lived in both countries the nearest American stereotype to a chav would be trailer trash. The poor, obnoxious, usually unemployed lower class who try to emulate celebrities and often buy/wear knock-offs of name brand goods. For example if Joy from My Name Is Earl moved to the UK she would probably get called a chav. Danikat (talk) 12:48, 22 June 2011 (UTC)

Fashion?

Why the hell is this under wikipedia fashion? Being a chav is nothing to do with fashion, it's a type of behaviour. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 212.32.78.75 (talk) 21:21, 22 April 2009 (UTC)

The Article states that the chav's made an impact on Fashion. with the dicisons made by burberry. So having said that the subculture has a style a way of dress much liek punks and hypsters do. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 99.254.241.182 (talk) 00:00, 1 February 2010 (UTC)

chav atchually means nothing to do with fashion —Preceding unsigned comment added by 77.97.131.122 (talk) 19:49, 17 April 2010 (UTC)

Before the term became popular nationally, it was commonly associated with those who wear burberry, although this wasn't the primary reason you would call someone a chav. As it has gained popularity the word has been expanded to mean a wider group of people. So fashion rarely has anything to do with it now, although it did originally. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 211.30.198.134 (talk) 06:49, 23 September 2014 (UTC)

Chav meaning

Doesn't the word chav come from the police description of Council House And Violent? The C of E (talk) 19:18, 26 May 2009 (UTC)

I think the article covers that. Totnesmartin (talk) 19:30, 26 May 2009 (UTC)

I am very suspicious of the "Cheltenham Average" definition - I imagine this is a backronym. Citation 8 is dodgy - given to support this claim does not in fact do so. In fact that citation says it is "thought to come from Chatham girls". Stroller (talk) 10:19, 27 July 2009 (UTC)

Citation #10, "Cheltenham Average", seems little more than speculation on the part of the journalist, denied by his sources, in order to make a story out of nothing. RashersTierney (talk) 14:24, 27 July 2009 (UTC)

Esteemed researchers including those at the Oxford English Dictionary and people like Michael Quinion agree that the Cheltenham Average and Council House And Violent definitions are both wrong. They all seem to agree that "chav" originated from the Romany words "chav", "chavi" and "chavo" which are words for (male) children or possibly from the Romany word "charver" which means "prostitute". http://www.worldwidewords.org/topicalwords/tw-cha2.htm IndieSinger (talk) 15:39, 6 September 2009 (UTC)

Romani, "chave" and "chava" are terms for children (m and f)... similarly "gadge" or "gadgee" is the romany equivalent for "gentile" or non-romany... often used in Yorkshire and the NE for an older man. Along with "bewer" for the female equivalent of a charver... a "girl"... closest cognate I've seen is the scottish gaelic "piuthar" (sister). As in the sentence "Oy charver a you yannin' at ma bewer's gash?" ...it's basically a "Tinker" (Irish/Scottish Gypsy) argot with borrowed romany words and Cant... and people trying to allude to being "real gypos" when they aren't really - they're just the descendents of Irish travellers (tinkers) from urban centres like Mank (Manchester) and Nuke (Newcastle). I grew up in York and we used these words all the time as normal everyday language in our tracksuits whilst out "chorring" (stealing) or "twocking" (Taking WithOut Consent - a police acronym) bikes and mopeds (mispent youth!). So I regard myself as a primary source, ding, hehehe!

P —Preceding unsigned comment added by 87.114.36.12 (talk) 13:10, 31 December 2009 (UTC)

Excuse me, but honestly, you believe that because Oxford Dictionary think CHAV comes from what, some old Roman words, for boy, children and prostitute that they are correct? Is that what you honestly believe? If so, I am shocked. Oh and to the nerds who are going to delete this, because it doesn't contribute to the article; F U. Chezzybab (talk) 21:56, 6 March 2010 (UTC)

Chezzybab - They're ROMANI words, not Roman words. I hope this changes your view. 'Chavi' has been used for boy for years, for example Del Boy in only fools and horses uses it. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Ippikin (talk • contribs) 11:49, 26 August 2010 (UTC)

I posted this above before I scrolled down to this section (must pay more attention) but I'll add it again...

Throwing my two-penneth in to the ring... I was born and grew up in the Medway towns (I'm 47 years old (as of 2012)) and the word was in common usage amongst me and my friends in the early eighties. It almost certainly dates back way before then as my father, now in his 90s was using the expression since way back when and his father before him. As far as I know the word has its probable origin in the Yiddish word 'chavarim' which just means 'friend', 'comrade' or just plain old 'mate'. 'Chatham Average' (which doesn't even make any sense and is equally commonly cited as Cheltham average) and 'Council house and violent' are bacronyms which are straining credibility to breaking point. To my mind the Yiddish root seems far more likely than the Romani root (although they pehaps share the same root themselves)as the usage prior to the mass media adoption would point more towards 'mate' than 'boy'.92.40.254.88 (talk) —Preceding undated comment added 11:26, 3 May 2012 (UTC).

Rubbish. People have been using the word "charver" up north since about the 1950s. Which is a variation of "Chavi" which is what the local gypsies used to call their kids. "Chav" is very new. It's probably only been round since the 1980s. And is a variation of the above.

When you call someone a charver/chav you're implying that they're a gypsy. As in a bit rough — Preceding unsigned comment added by 108.171.128.173 (talk) 17:56, 5 January 2015 (UTC)

Vandalism

This page has been subjected to a barage of vandalism. It needs a lock. Mtaylor848 (talk) 19:37, 27 May 2009 (UTC)

What an irony lock? You make a page about charvers and neds, and expect it NOT to get vandalised?!!!

Define what you mean by vandalism? They might be legitimate contributions by people who've got better things to do than spend hours obediently adhering to the formatting policy - it's the role of pedantic nerds to correct the formatting - whilst resisting the urge to censor what they don't understand or can't tolerate. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 87.114.36.12 (talk) 13:13, 31 December 2009 (UTC)

Agreed. How do we go about getting one? AltitudeJunkie (talk) 01:38, 16 July 2009 (UTC)

This really is the funniest article you've ever read though, eh? 65.95.63.13 (talk) 04:22, 23 August 2009 (UTC)

Possible breach of policy re. youtube link

Is "I'm A Chav OFFICIAL VIDEO 2009", recently posted, in breach of policy and therefore liable to be removed: ? Or is it (1) a valid interpretation of 'Chav' culture and (2) policy compliant, and all that? RashersTierney (talk) 00:34, 5 August 2009 (UTC)

Pronunciation

Um, so the article claims the pronunciation is "/Tch'ave/"? With a link to the IPA? I don't think so. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 213.155.151.233 (talk) 22:31, 8 September 2009 (UTC)

I've corrected it for you. IndieSinger (talk) 18:08, 9 September 2009 (UTC)

I put in the IPA and the "respell" but I'm not sure it needs the respell version. Feel free to remove it. IndieSinger (talk) 06:55, 10 September 2009 (UTC)

Neds and scallies

Whilst 'neds' and 'scallies' are no doubt similar, I think they'd be better off lower down the page. The word "chav" has acquired a huge prominence to describe "cornerboys" (to use an older expression from a different country) and neither 'ned' nor 'scally' share the etymology or origin of 'chav' and 'charver'. pablo_hablo. 23:21, 14 October 2009 (UTC)

I agree. I think these other words need a section called "Regional names" or something. Maybe I'll do it now. IndieSinger (talk) 21:09, 26 October 2009 (UTC)

Charver and Scally are interchangeable in Yorkshire. The promininence of "Chav" is simply southerners suddenly discovering a useful new epithet for the tribal northerners... who've been painfully aware of Charvers for decades... —Preceding unsigned comment added by 87.114.36.12 (talk) 13:15, 31 December 2009 (UTC)

Chav clothing

It seems to me highly related to hip-hop and ghetto fashions in the U.S.A. Surely that's where baseball caps originated and where they were first worn at jaunty angles??

But hip hop culture is not mentioned in this article. 208.87.248.162 (talk) 03:38, 5 January 2010 (UTC)

Tracksuits and burberry caps are far removed from the baggy-jeans and flat-peaks seen in the USA.

Spanish cognate words

The Dictionary of the Spanish Royal Academy derives chaval from the vocative of chavó, accented on the last syllable, the calé (Spanish gypsy) word for a boy or youth.

In Spain, chavs are usually called "cani", "bakala", "pokero" or "killo". They're known for wearing golden things, writing always with lot of "h" and listening to reggaeton and "flamenquito". They're also known because of their short intelligence. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 79.151.93.102 (talk) 11:21, 29 May 2011 (UTC)

Totally agree with it, somebody should take out that "guarro" thing and change it for "cani" "quillo/killo", "bakala", "pokero", "quinqui/kinki" (more used in the 1980's) or "charnego", more used in Catalonia because of the Spanish origin of the Catalan chavs.--ASalvans (talk) 15:05, 9 November 2011 (UTC)

In Mexico, the colloquial word chavo, accented on the first syllable, is used for a pre-adolescent boy.

Neither word has a pejorative connotation. 208.87.248.162 (talk) 03:50, 5 January 2010 (UTC)

The Spanish reference synonim should include the word "Choni" it´s more used nowadays than guarro as a pejorative word for this social underclass group. It´s only used for women, though. (When it´s used for men it´s used as a joke a choni). Here you can see what it´s known as a choni (as an example): http://www.google.es/search?q=choni&hl=en&safe=off&rlz=1C1AFAB_enES444ES450&prmd=imvns&tbm=isch&tbo=u&source=univ&sa=X&ei=4fmyTuqOLI3U8QPI1YTsBA&ved=0CHwQsAQ&biw=1296&bih=683&sei=%204vqyTp_LB8jg8AP09rXyBA Choni is singular femenine, chonis is the plural. I hope this helps — Preceding unsigned comment added by 80.29.9.128 (talk) 20:36, 3 November 2011 (UTC) That last bit about "choni" was made by me, sorry. Im going to include it.

Could it perhaps be derived from the Spanish word "chabacano", meaning "poor taste," "vulgar," "common," "of low quality," "tacky," or "coarse"? 94.173.11.26 (talk) 20:06, 23 November 2011 (UTC)

We can't include purely speculative ideas, only facts with reliable sources. Itsmejudith (talk) 20:09, 23 November 2011 (UTC)

Michael Quinion

The bit on etymology seems to show him supporting two contradicting views on the origin. Bit weird. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 77.101.135.39 (talk) 22:47, 20 February 2010 (UTC)

Chav in the 1970s

'Chav' was a widely used term in the Medway Towns in the 70s. It simply meant 'mate', almost as casual as terms such as 'duck' or 'my lover' are/were used elsewhere in the UK. No abusive connotations. Whether that morphed into the current usage I've no idea. Gowt ([[User talk:|talk]]) 11:42, 6 April 2010 (UTC)

Are you aware of any refs to that effect? RashersTierney (talk) 19:43, 6 April 2010 (UTC)

I grew up in the 70's early 80's in Dartford Kent (a lot of gypsy kids in our school) and we used to use the word chav as in to "borrow without the intention of giving back" e.g. "he chavved some sweets off me, the chavving b*****d" Richtea212 (talk) 20:06, 26 May 2010 (UTC)

No mention of the "King of Chavs"

Michael Carroll (lottery winner)? 129.120.177.8 (talk) 23:18, 27 July 2010 (UTC)

"Fashion" section

I removed

==Fashion== Due to the affiliation with the working class the clothes worn by Chavs tend to be associated with poverty and tastelessness. The general stereotype is that of the tracksuit wearing teenager sporting a Burberry cap. However this original image has been diluted over time and via the influence of fashion. Many young people wish to avoid resembling a chav, and therefore the cliché stereotype has become less common. Modern chavs incorporate aspects of other cultures into their appearance such as Hip-Hop, boy racer and club culture. As such it would not be uncommon to see a 'chav' wearing a hoodie or baggy jeans, although they may not be 'true' chavs.

because it seems subjective and confused. What, for instance is a "true chav"? If anyone wants to rewrite the section so that it has some citations and makes sense that would be lovely. pablo 09:12, 22 August 2010 (UTC)

It is subjective but that is exactly what it is saying. You've removed a section that actually is really helpful. Chav used to refer to those who wear Burberry but has now morphed into meaning layabouts with poor fashion sense, usually wearing hoodies. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 211.30.198.134 (talk) 06:55, 23 September 2014 (UTC)

Edit request from Conbob97, 2 September 2010

{{editsemiprotected}} Please change "to describe young people" to "to describe some young people"

Conbob97 (talk) 16:31, 2 September 2010 (UTC)

Done I used 'certain' rather than 'some.' I hope you don't mind. Thanks, Celestra (talk) 17:00, 2 September 2010 (UTC)

Edit request from Subi123123123, 18 September 2010

{{edit semi-protected}} Please change "of white working class background" to "normally of working class background", because I believe the meaning had broadened to be a word used to describe typically aggressive teenagers, of any race or ethnicity, and recently, not exclusively working class teenagers. Subi123123123 (talk) 15:31, 18 September 2010 (UTC)

Subi123123123 (talk) 15:31, 18 September 2010 (UTC)

Not done: At least one of the sources for the article include the phrase "white working class", so you'd need to have a source which speaks to this. I notice, too, that most of the formal definitions have to do with how these kids dress and say nothing about aggressiveness or anti-social behavior. Has the term really changed in that way, or is it merely being incorrectly applied to other groups of youths? Celestra (talk) 16:04, 18 September 2010 (UTC)

The term has existed throughout the country long before the media picked up on it, and got it entirely wrong. Sadly, it's hard to find references for any of this that isn't from these incorrect sources. The section "Criticism of the stereotype" lists several people who had no idea what they were talking about, and the section "Characterisation in the media" lists a lot of people who are definitely not chavs at all. The media has managed to spread it's own definition of what it THOUGHT a chav was, rather than what it actually is.

It's not snobbery - it's not even a stereotype. It's a description. If you are the type of person that hangs around street corners, shops, or bus stops, specifically to cause trouble, damage property, or harass / shout abuse at other people, you are a chav. If you are not one of those people, you are not a chav. It has nothing to do with class, dress sense, or anything else at all. Anyone can be a chav, and not everyone of the lower working class who wears a tracksuit and a burberry cap is a chav.

I would love to see this article edited to reflect the correct definition that was being spoken about all over the internet long before it appeared anywhere in the media, but as I said, finding any references is sadly going to be almost impossible now. --188.223.24.156 (talk) 06:37, 31 December 2010 (UTC)

Edit request from Jimbles1000, 23 September 2010

{{edit semi-protected}} In the See also section please make link to Spide/Steek a Northern Ireland term that pre-dates the use of chav. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Spide Jimbles1000 (talk) 23:07, 23 September 2010 (UTC)

Done Thanks, Stickee (talk) 23:52, 23 September 2010 (UTC)

Translation for Russian wiki

Hello! I'd like to proceed the translation of this article into Russian, but since the page is locked I can't see the source. That makes my task a bit harder, especially with refs. Could you please help me?

Sorry for my poor English. I'm better at translations 'from' English since I practice at that kind of activity much more often.--Mieczeslaw (talk) 06:20, 29 December 2010 (UTC)

I had you confirmed as an editor, so you can edit this page now. Itsmejudith (talk) 12:35, 29 December 2010 (UTC)

Illustration

I removed the illustration, under the following rationale: I removed the editor-contributed original representation of a chav. Would it be acceptable to prominently display a caricature of a Jew on the page for 'kike'? Analogous situation here. To elaborate, I think that the image, placed as it is in the primary image position, is given undue weight--especially since it purports to represent a real social group. The pages for 'redneck' and 'white trash' don't have any images. I think that if the image is to be retained, it should be to illustrate a section about popular attitudes toward 'chavs', and not in the position that indicates it illustrates the entire article. I already removed the image; since the change was reverted I'm bringing it here for discussion. Leoniceno (talk) 17:45, 2 February 2011 (UTC)

I think it's supposed to be a stereotype rather than necessarily a real group of people; I wouldn't imagine that many people self-identify as chavs, and the image is clearly meant to be lighthearted. I think the article is better with the image than without it. You also seem to be interested in censoring other articles as well, but the Wikipedia isn't censored, if people allege characteristics of groups of people, the wikipedia should probably cover that, as well as the (probably much better founded) countervailing views that there are to such negative stereotypes.Rememberway (talk) 19:13, 2 February 2011 (UTC)

I don't know where, in my edit history, you get the idea that I like to "censor," but I proposed not censorship, but that the image be moved to a different location in the article because I (still) tend to feel that it misrepresents the subject. Leoniceno (talk) 10:01, 17 May 2012 (UTC)

Fundamentally, neutral point of view is found by adding material until we achieve balance, not by removing material. Doing that can never end.Rememberway (talk) 19:15, 2 February 2011 (UTC)

I like the cartoon chav, as I said when people were constantly trying to replace it with photos of people they thought looked chavvy. Agree with Rememberway, well put, except for the general point about adding rather than removing. Sometimes radical removal is the only way to NPOV, not here though. Itsmejudith (talk) 10:51, 3 February 2011 (UTC)

I just meant that you can always argue that any particular thing in an article isn't balanced, and take it out. Pretty soon, you have no article. Balance is something the whole article has, not any sub-part. But yeah, sounds like we're on the same page.Rememberway (talk) 15:58, 3 February 2011 (UTC)

Class

The lead says chavs are working class, but they are actually underclass. Regular working-class people such as builders, plumbers, carpenters and electricians are not chavs. 109.249.200.133 (talk) 12:51, 6 June 2011 (UTC)

Agreed. Chavs are significantly more likely to be burglars or muggers. Deterence ^Talk 16:00, 5 August 2011 (UTC)

It is a bit more complicated than that. A person does not necessarily have to be working to be from a working-class family or background. And, really, a chav could theoretically be from any class, it's just far more likely that they will be working class or underclass. A group of middle-class kids who wore chavvy clothes and went around beating people up for no good reason every night would still be chavs, for example: it is their actions and lifestyle that make them chavs, not their backgrounds per se (although background is obviously a major contributing factor to anyone's lifestyle choices). The picture also differs depending on location. In the more impoverished areas of large towns and cities, it is far more likely that chavs would be from the underclass. In smaller or medium-sized towns and cities, chavs are more likely to be from a greater mixture of backgrounds, perhaps even including middle-class kids (who may or may not be perceived as 'wannabe chavs' by other people, and even other chavs). In more rural areas, presumably due to a relative lack of poverty (there being far fewer members of the underclass in such areas), members of the underclass are far less likely to become chavs than members of the working classes, and are common targets for chav violence. Interestingly, chavs exist even in places where poverty does not. Another consideration is that different areas of the country have different words that mean 'chav', or something close to that, and application of the word 'chav' itself may be more limited in scope, perhaps limited to a particular 'type' of chav or to chavs from a particular region, whilst the local expression might be retained for more general usage. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 78.147.5.202 (talk) 16:39, 2 December 2011 (UTC)

It can very much IME include lower middle class. many come from the outer suburbs and rural areas also in my hometown, and definately are not unique to only cities and large towns. Class is not what it used to be however, and lower, middle, upper are not as clear cut as it used to be. At school it generally reffered to anyone with agressive anti-social behaviour, many had reasonably well off families to pay for their customised cars, etc. (with exception of obviously being a goth, skater punk etc. would not be.).

So...

In the US, would we call them jocks/"gangstas"? 98.24.154.187 (talk) 02:52, 17 June 2011 (UTC)

As I said futher up the page I think the best US equivilent would be trailer trash. Joy from My Name Is Earl is a prime example. Move her to a UK council estate and only the accent would give away that she's not a native chav. Danikat (talk) 13:14, 22 June 2011 (UTC)

The closest American equivalent to a Chav is a wigger, with a dash of trailer trash. Further information about the definition of a Chav can be found at urbandictionary.com (which is also good for a laugh). To put it bluntly: if your daughter's new boyfriend is a chav then you know you've failed horribly as a parent. Deterence ^Talk 15:59, 5 August 2011 (UTC)

I don't understand why there are several mentions of "jocks" in this talk page -- jocks are simply guys into sports, and come from all socioeconomic statuses and similarly dress in all different manners. Perhaps it is the misunderstanding that the wearing of track suits in this case are as a fashion item rather than as a practical item. In the case of jocks wearing tracksuits, it is activity appropriate, as opposed to a cultural anachronism. Because of this, it should probably be stressed that the wearing of the fashion items are for just that, and not for practical or originally intended purposes. I am actually surprised at how little the term wigger is used here -- it seems to be the best cultural parallel in that the examples given of chavs seem to be them emulating not just any celebrities but rather a hip-hop celebrity culture, with a dash of British pride thrown in (hence the prevalence of a brand like Burberry's trademark pattern/colors.) 173.61.165.17 (talk) 15:35, 7 April 2012 (UTC)

Other countries section

In America, chavs are called white trash, hillbillies, and rednecks. This completely glosses over the black community. Black chavs are called niggers.

What about "meshbacks" - in reference to the mesh back of trucker baseball caps, popularized by William Gibson. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 173.48.215.144 (talk) 16:11, 11 August 2011 (UTC)

In Australia, a popular term for these youths is 'lads'. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 1Eellee1 (talk • contribs) 10:40, 18 September 2011 (UTC)

White trash, hillbilly, and redneck to me suggest rural origins, particularly the latter two. An exact American equivalent is hard to determine, because of sociological differences. For one thing, urban dwellers in America tend to be either the black and Hispanic poor, immigrants, middle- to upper-class people living in trendy areas/yuppies, or young bohemian/"hipster"-types, none of which are really "chavs." The less-educated, lower-earning white folks tend to live in working-class suburbs, small towns, and rural areas, simply because either that's where they've always lived, or because they fled the cities when the cities became too "ethnic," and later too expensive due to gentrification.

The other thing is that since we never had an aristocracy in the US, we don't have the same concept of "class" as the UK does. Distinctions between race, ethnicity, and urban vs. rural tend to hold more currency than class. With the economic situation of the last few years, there is a growing awareness of socioeconomic issues, but it usually manifests itself in terms of "average Americans" (the vast majority of the population) vs. the very very rich.

While "wiggers" (for lack of a better term) may be the closest thing the US has to British chavs, there are some distinctions: a wigger isn't necessarily urban, or even lower-class. A wigger is simply a white person who "acts black," and as such, is often suburban and from a relatively well-off family. Chavs seem to simply be the modern manifestation of British working-class youth, whereas wiggers are a relatively recent phenomenon that spans socioeconomic boundaries. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 173.164.128.78 (talk) 20:27, 23 March 2012 (UTC)

Edit request from Erfinnico, 11 August 2011

This edit request has been answered. Set the |answered= or |ans= parameter to no to reactivate your request.

Add to other countries: Finland: Kerava Erfinnico (talk) 21:01, 11 August 2011 (UTC)

Can you provide a reliable source for that addition? As far as I know, Kerava is just a town in Finland. — Bility (talk) 23:41, 11 August 2011 (UTC)

Drinks

I hear they drink Bacardi Breezers or a similar brands of alcopop and regard beer as to down-market.82.27.29.9 (talk) 19:43, 13 August 2011 (UTC)

Doubt it, lads who drink Bacardi Breezers and alcopops are generally regarded as homosexuals, at least they were in my clubbing days ten years ago. Hence the Daffyd "I'm the only gay in this village" Bacardi and coke joke in Little Britain. ♦ Dr. Blofeld 12:15, 18 September 2011 (UTC)

A lot of female chavs drink alcopops; male chavs tend to be beer drinkers. 89.194.40.163 (talk) 13:32, 12 October 2011 (UTC)

Citing Urban Dictionary

WP:USERGENERATED says all there is to say about whether Urban Dictionary may be used as a source. As to whether it is as reliable as Wikipedia itself, WP:CIRCULAR explains why that is moot. Neither is a reliable source. You need a third party source that comes from a recognized authority. I would look to the various dictionaries of slang which are widely available as your best bet. The OED and other mainstream dictionaries also have quite a bit of coverage of slag. --Dennis Bratland (talk) 18:28, 20 November 2011 (UTC)

in brazil "chavettes" = piriguetes! — Preceding unsigned comment added by 186.196.104.100 (talk) 14:10, 22 November 2011 (UTC)

Material sourced to popular anti-"chav" books

This is a real problem in the article and I intend to continue combatting it. Itsmejudith (talk) 21:01, 23 November 2011 (UTC)

They are still referenced to reliable sources, you removed sourced information. "Anti-chav" books or not, the paragraph covers the stereotypical viewpoint of chav traits (and they are true having experienced all first hand having grown up in a rough school and been exposed to peoples from very rough urban areas). The article does not assert that this is wikipedia's viewpoint of them, only the common stereotypical traits which I think is fine.♦ Dr. Blofeld 21:06, 23 November 2011 (UTC)

Sorry, don't agree that these texts are reliable for anything. They are primary sources for how the stereotype was created, but we would need a secondary source to interpret them. I have lived in supposedly "rough" areas too. Our own personal experiences are neither here nor there. Itsmejudith (talk) 22:22, 23 November 2011 (UTC)

Take it to the reliable sources noticeboard if you disagree. but I think you'll find most books about chav and chav culture are similar.♦ Dr. Blofeld 22:47, 23 November 2011 (UTC)

Yes, will take it to RSN, no problem. Books about chav culture are far from similar. Some are by sociologists, and there are also op-eds by well known journalists. Other books and articles are lightweight in the extreme, just red-top tabloid material. Itsmejudith (talk) 22:57, 23 November 2011 (UTC)

I have to agree, too many light-weight sources here. There are synthesis, and POV issues, the term is viewed by many as a classist slur, but there is no serious attention paid to this, despite the fact that a number of the cited sources address the matter. In actuality the article looks like a practical joke and needs a serious overhaul. -- Semitransgenic _talk. 19:48, 25 November 2011 (UTC)

RSN said that those sources were useless. I will take them out again when I remember to. Itsmejudith (talk) 19:04, 2 December 2011 (UTC)

POV issues

Tagged for neutrality, multiple sources that are used in the article touch on the do rogatory aspects of the word "chav", with it's classist and abusive overtones, yet none of this content is represented in the article. -- Semitransgenic _talk. 20:08, 25 November 2011 (UTC)

"Chavs are widely known for their counterfeit designer clothing and sportswear, often obtained from chain shops such as Sports Direct, JJB Sports and JD Sports" - These shops do not sell counterfeit clothes. They do, however, sell brands and styles 'chavs' like, and often have discounts which makes it possible to get 'brand' clothing for cheap. The sentence as it implies they are counterfeiters or importers of counterfeits, which is completely false.

Shops and counterfeits

"Chavs are widely known for their counterfeit designer clothing and sportswear, often obtained from chain shops such as Sports Direct, JJB Sports and JD Sports" - These shops do not sell counterfeit clothes. They do, however, sell brands and styles 'chavs' like, and often have discounts which makes it possible to get 'brand' clothing for cheap. The sentence as it implies they are counterfeiters or importers of counterfeits, which is completely false.85.157.155.247 (talk) 22:38, 11 January 2012 (UTC)

I agree. I wanted to edit the article to make this change but it is protected and I do not have an account. The sentence could be made less misleading by changing it to read:

"Chavs are widely known for their counterfeit designer clothing and sportswear, the latter of which is often obtained from chain shops such as Sports Direct, JJB Sports and JD Sports" — Preceding unsigned comment added by 129.215.91.60 (talk) 14:40, 13 January 2012 (UTC)

I've removed the mention of counterfeit clothing, altogether, because it was unsourced. I also removed the mention of the shops, because that was also unsourced. Lastly, I removed some of the brands mentioned, for the same reason. Chickenmonkey 18:31, 13 January 2012 (UTC)

Origins

Chatham is considered to be the place name that the word Chav derives from. Its been widely noted in the media and as such should be included in possible eptymology section. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 92.4.146.240 (talk) 18:20, 5 February 2012 (UTC)

Hatred of White Working Class

This is an extract from the BBC article and refers to the Fabian society article about this term, Chav.

Summary: Chav is a term that is derogatory slang for a young person. The Fabian Society's Tom Hampson says the term betrays a deep level of "class hatred" and is "deeply offensive to a largely voiceless group".

'Deeply offensive'

"Mr Hampson, who is Fabian Society editorial director, says in an article due to be published in the Fabian Review that the word is "sneering and patronising", and compared it to other controversial words such as faggot and pikey. Some uses of some words fall below the threshold of acceptability and some are definitely above it. Chav is way above that threshold. It is deeply offensive to a largely voiceless group and - especially when used in normal middle-class conversation or on national TV - it betrays a deep and revealing level of class hatred. And he said it is distancing, turning the chav into the kind of feral beast that exists only in tabloid headlines. It was an example of the middle classes using language to belittle the lower classes, he said. The middle classes have always used language to distinguish themselves from those a few rungs below them on the ladder - we all know their old serviette/napkin, lounge/living room, settee/sofa tricks. But this is something new. This is middle class hatred of the white working class, pure and simple."

Just as we have white trash in the US, you have chavs in the UK. Just as we have PC idiots in the US, you seem to have them in the UK as well. There is nothing wrong with having a word for a trashy young person. It has nothing to do with economic class, it has to do with these people actually acting in an inferior manner. Deeply offensive, yeah. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 76.92.68.79 (talk) 19:54, 25 May 2012 (UTC)

Source:

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/uk/7509968.stm

http://www.fabians.org.uk/publications/extracts/chav-offensive

Commemt

The article needs a rewrite, it is a rant that is POV based. It should also be downgraded, this article is not at B standard, it would struggle to get a C. --88.104.17.247 (talk) 22:47, 17 March 2012 (UTC)

American equivalents and misnomers

There is of course no American "equivalent" to the chav, as this phenomenon is properly English. Even attempts to translate it into Scottish and Irish contexts are fraught with peril. However, please note especially that rednecks, trailer trash, and white trash are all rural phenomena, and that none of these terms are age-specific. Chavs are urban or urban-wannabe (i.e., suburban) young people.

One respondent (apparently American) asked if chavs are "jocks". No; jocks assume the ruling role in American high schools. They see themselves, and are often seen by adults and suggestible classmates, as the aristocracy of their wading pool. Their identity is derived from varsity sports. Chavs are down-and-outers who see themselves as rebels and underdogs, and are proudly not into athletics. When I was a kid in the States in the 1970s, there was a youth class called "rats" who were something like chavs: sarcastic and disruptive young people who either are or pretend to be from the lower working class or outright poor, and who value offending others (especially adults) and breaking the law, or at least putting on airs of having done. My parents, who were from the 1950s, had a similar class they called "hoods" (a word we still used in the 70s) or "JDs", meaning "juvenile delinquents." Note that the term encompassed an entire lifestyle and mode of fashion, not just criminality. As a teacher in the 1980s, I heard the word "burnout" used for similar kids. However, unlike chavs, rats, hoods, JDs, and burnouts can be from anywhere, even deep ruralia; they don't identify as urban. They are also not as loud and swaggering; there's a lot of rap sensibility in the chav phenomenon.

In contemporary America, there are strong chav parallels in rap culture. However, the racial divide is much more prominent in the States, such that any white kid there who answers the general description of a chav (and many do) risks being scorned down to his socks by the "real" gangstas, the arbiters of cool, who are black by definition. This means that there will never be any accurate American chav equivalent. I have heard black youth refer to white kids who ape their style and mannerisms as "busters", and suspect this is as close a translation of "chav" as America can supply.

A final thought: Eminem is basically a chav, with allowance made. The fact that he has no peers (all others are either not white or not gangsta) makes him the exception that proves the rule. Laodah (talk) 01:08, 2 April 2012 (UTC)

They are called white trash in the US or wigger if they are white, gangsta or thug is used for all ethnicities, and you can likely guess what black chavs are called in the US. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 76.92.68.79 (talk) 19:56, 25 May 2012 (UTC)

Neutrality

After editing this article I hope to have got to a point where it can be said be be neutral, can we now remove the neutrality notice on the article?--Pennine rambler (talk) 23:17, 13 April 2012 (UTC)

I still think this deserves a neutrality tag. The first two sentences read "Chav, ( /ˈtʃæv/ CHAV, also CHAVER) is a pejorative epithet commonly used, chiefly in the United Kingdom, to belittle.[1] The term indicates a derogatory stereotype created in the British mass media to refer to working class youth subculture in England." Ya, thats neutral. The only point of view in the article seems to be of someone who condemns the use of the word and regards it as a steryotype, like how the sections are labeled "Stereotype" and "Criticism of the stereotype" and under the related articles it has a link to "folk devil". Ha ha, what? With there not being any other points of view expressed. I know no one should probably waste their time on this article as its so unimportant, but its WAYYYYYYYYYY below the standards of wikipedia as it is right now. Skip8619 (talk) 22:58, 11 June 2012 (UTC)

Do you have a reliable source that takes a different view? (As opposed to random people sounding off on the InternetItsmejudith (talk) 06:46, 12 June 2012 (UTC)).

If we were allowed to edit it again, I'm sure people could find sources. But do you deny that its not neutral? The phrasing, the section names, all the soucres cited, they're obviously not neutral and come from only one viewpoint.66.30.63.172 (talk) 15:03, 13 June 2012 (UTC)

We have to report what the most reliable sources say. This is a topic in sociology and the sociologists who have commented on "chav" all treat it as a stereotype. Academics aren't required to be neutral but must use their professional expertise and judgement to set out what they consider to be a true picture. But if you have a source of equal quality that treats the "chav" phenomenon in a different way, please suggest it here and we can consider it. Or if you create an account you can edit the article. Itsmejudith (talk) 17:44, 13 June 2012 (UTC)

Photographs of living persons

I checked the links to the origins of the two photographs used in the article, the authority to use could not be verified at all on one of the photographs and may not be uploaded by the person who took the photograph or the person it portrays, its is questionable copyright and maybe in violation of Photography and privacy laws in the UK and the Data Protection Act 1998.

The photograph used at the lead did not state at the source that it is a person who has self identified as chav, the source also states it is of another person and not the person who uploaded it and may also be in breach Photography and privacy laws in the UK and the Data Protection Act 1998.

In both cases as the age of the subjects is not established. The data subject (the person appearing in the photograph) is responsible for deciding whether or not their photograph should be taken, provided they are able to understand their rights. And it is up to you to inform them why you want to take their photograph and how it will be used. The latter part is very important in regard to this article, if either subject was under 18 when the photograph was taken then unless parents have given clear authority for use of the photograph in this article about the term Chav the law is breached. Laws in the UK relate to under 18's. A child is legally under parental guidance until the age of 18 years. The age of capacity for entering into a contract is 18 years. If a child enters into a contract below that age, then the contract would not be binding on the child.

Also even where the subjects in the photographs over 18 the setting the photograph is an important factor. Three criteria must be met to avoid a breach of law:

Would people attending the event expect photographs to be taken?
Would people in the photograph probably consider themselves to be in a public place, with no expectation of privacy?
Do you think it unlikely that anyone would object to the photograph being taken? (You should bear in mind that an individual could be in a public place, such as a care home, but may not want any images in which they are present being used.)

If any one of the three criteria cannot be firmly established both photographs are in breach of law in the UK under the Data Protection Act 1998, irrespective as to whether or not the subjects are named.

In the photograph that was in the lead the subject looked surprised and bemused at being photographed, its setting cannot be established as being in public or with the consent of the subject. It fails 1, 2 and 3. The age is not verified. Copyright is questionable.

On the second photograph its setting appears to be in private, it fails 2 and 3. Again the subjects age is not verified and neither is consent verified for use in this article.

Hants Gov UK Data Protection.

The above issues are relevant when considering using photographs of living people in the EU and especially in the UK in an article such as this.

Consent needs to be sought from the subjects or parents of the subjects in these photographs.

The use of photographs of living persons to illustrate a derogatory stereotype is also questionable.

--Pennine rambler (talk) 06:06, 16 April 2012 (UTC)

A thought on where 'Chav' comes from.

Ok so this isn't to say where, fact is it comes from Chatham. Though i don't see it being a merge of "Chatham Average" being as the old term was a Chatham Chav. Having a Chatham Chatham Average would just be silly. The old language meanings seem likely but my thought is maybe this has mixed with another use of the word chav to result in its modern more derogatory meaning. That being that the word chav i can remember being used to mean steal; that is to chav something is to steal it. Ergo a chav being the jobless, tracky wearing, drunk and likely druggy who will chav(steal) things to get money.

Now i say this as some one from Medway who has grown up here and this was my experience and understanding growing up.

And now for some true chav terms i believe your unlikely to find many places other than medway such as: Saink(Something), Naink(Nothing), Aint(Isn't) "Nah it aint"(No it isn't)I know it contestable aint and saying "nah it aint" come from London but i truly think this time it may be the other way. But my personal favourite i ever heard, and is only a matter of accent realy.. Dan the Tan (Down the Town) as in "I'm goin' dan the tan". — Preceding unsigned comment added by CazT91 (talk • contribs) 01:38, 2 July 2012 (UTC)

Your definition of 'true chav terms' is only your definition. If you listen to 'chavs' from anywhere else they'll speak in their own local accent.

I was born and brung up in Medway and still have a very strong Chat'm accent in spite of living in the frozen north for 20 years. I still say 'Nah it ain't' and other such suvvern expressions... Anyhoo... To cut to the chase I was using the words 'chav' and 'chavvy' 30 years ago and my father for many years before that and as far as I was concerned it came from the Yiddish word 'Chaverim' which just meant friend / colleague / mate. It certainly wasn't used as an insult in those days. 188.29.122.74 (talk) 14:34, 27 June 2013 (UTC)

Chavs vs metalheads

Have there been incidents of fighting between chavs and metalheads? Norum 02:23, 14 July 2012 (UTC)