Talk:Chav/Archive 1

Edinburgh usage

In Edinburgh, in the late Eighties and early Nineties, I remember the use of 'Chavie' to mean a young man, as in "How's it going Chavie" or "See that Chavie over there, ask him". The word was used almost exclusively by the working class, to refer to the working class. Chavie and Gadgey were to all intents and purposes interchangeable. 195.92.40.49 09:05, 30 September 2005 (UTC)

Redirect

Not entirely sure this should redirect to townie since this is rapidly becoming the predominant term. Sjc 08:52, 24 Sep 2004 (UTC)

Townie was a terrible redirect. Pikey is better, and either this should redirect to pikey, or vice versa, IMO. Sam [Spade] 10:48, 24 Sep 2004 (UTC)

A pikey is totally different to a charva so that is out. This should redirect to townie, chav is just some word they use in southern England, I'd rather it redirected to charva however townie is the common word which everyone knows whatever they call them where they happen to live --Josquius 11:59, 25 Oct 2004 (UTC)

Pikey was originally used to denote Irish Travellers. Chav and Pikey are two separate terms and neither should redirect to the other.

In central England townie was used a lot. But now Chav is the more widely accepted term. Pikey is the slang term often attributed to Gypsies, or Irish Nomads.

Filthy chavsters?

I think this needs to be cleaned up a bit, it makes it look a little like anyone who wears Nike shoes and drinks has as a sole purpose of life to acquire an attack dog. Passw0rd

I don't agree, it goes over quite a few other, distinct characteristics. It is true this is a huge subculture / demographic of society, but thats kinda the point. Sam [Spade] 12:18, 19 Oct 2004 (UTC)

---

Absolutely right. Pikeys are Irish travellers. Pikey and Chav are unrelated.

What do they like to be called?

What do they call each other? I assume "filthy chavster" and "kappa slapper" are out, but there must be some term used w/in the chav community to refer to ones peers in a neutral, perhaps even positive way? Sam [Spade] 12:16, 19 Oct 2004 (UTC)

Among others - homie, dude, man - often insult each other as a friendly greeting ("sup, you twats")

I wouldn't agree with 'dude' - that's too similar to the surfer subculture, which they are prime opponents of.

Here's a nice little story. Some chavs asked my mate for a cigarette (a 'ciggy'), and once he gave it to them, one of them said, "Alright, let's move gangstas!". So gangsta would seem to be another.

Neds, Chavs

From what I can tell "ned" (which we use here) has a more specific meaning than "chav", which seems to have replaced yob more or less. "Neds" have to dress in a certain way, the word 'ned' mainly comes from Scotland

I'm sure "chav" is an old word from Romany... perhaps someone can confirm this. There are several other Romany words in regularly used slang I can think of - Cooshtie, Gadgie Nark, Pal etc

I find the general majority of those that we would consider 'more extreme' Chavs... not that I wish to categorise divisions in the culture... would describe themselves as Chavs... indeed on many dating/meeting sites such as MSN and Faceparty many people 'seek Chavs'... so clearly it can be a neutral of descriptive term as opposed to an insult per ce.

The problem is that drive-by neologists are using this article as an opportunity to unleash "chav" synonyms that just they and their 5 mates use.

"Chav" and "Pikey" are widely used. The rest need non-trivial citations [1] [2] if they're to avoid looking (to both the trained and untrained eye) like UrbanDictionaryisms.

"Chav" or "Chavi" (meaning "guy" or "bloke") is an AngloRomani word (or at least an Anglicized AngloRomani word), btw. So is "mush" and "cushti". Never heard "Gadgie Nark". Don't know if "pal" is. Maybe...

chocolateboy 29 June 2005 01:40 (UTC)

Well Gadgie is a Roma term for non-Roma. A nark is a grass. As for the online dating sites mentioned above - if lower working class women are seen as "slags" then I could understand why someone might search for a female chav. I cannot imagine that the person looking for a chav would describe themselves as one. (I see this is a lower middle class term used to describe lower working class youth. This may be my prejudice against the "Daily Mail reader stereotype" however. Secretlondon 29 June 2005 17:05 (UTC)

Nark was used a lot in the 70s TV series Porridge --Colin Angus Mackay 13:35, 2 August 2005 (UTC)

Barry v. Barrow

Is the term Barry Boy the same as Barrow Boy? I saw the name in the Rumpole of the Bailey episode, Rumpole and the Barrow Boy. Auric The Rad 22:05, Dec 5, 2004 (UTC)

Nope. A barrow boy is a market trader. Icundell 17:38, 22 Dec 2004 (UTC)

In the context of the Rumpole episode, a barrow boy is someone from a non-traditional legal background - ie hasn't been to fashionable chambers, not Oxbridge-educated.

Chav Gender

Are chavs exclusively male? "The average chas ... His girlfriend ..." User:194.112.0.7(sig added by [[User:Sam Spade|Sam]] Spade wishes you a merry Christmas! 20:50, 22 Dec 2004 (UTC))

Generally, referring to a Chav means you are referring to a male, although you obvioulsy get female Chavs too. Usual terming is "Chav(s)" - male(s) "Scally(ies)" "townie(s)" etc - male(s) or female(s) singularly or in mixed or single sex groups

Isn't the term chavette distinctly female? I've just read an article on chavs in a (Finnish) newspaper and it uses chavette when referring to females. Rackham 10:08, 19 Jan 2005 (UTC)

Chav Refers To The Type Of People, Male Chavs Are Called Chavs Too. Like Man Can Refer To The Species And Not Just the Sex. Females Are Indeed Called Chavettes. (Or Sluts As I Call Em)

OT: Sentence case would be much less annoying -- Greg K Nicholson

Chav usually refers to both genders. Chavette is specific to Females, but there is no similar word for males. - Ian, Hull

I have never heard the term chavette used seriously. In any case I would have thought the word would be chavesse. Chavette would refer to a small chav. - Ad, Bournemouth

Gaudy gold

The key to chavdom is not gold itself; it is low quality, gaudy jewelry. An average chavster desires to be as shiny as possible, and therefore commonly spreads his carets very thinly across as large a surface as his budget can accommodate. Sam Spade wishes you a merry Christmas! 17:08, 23 Dec 2004 (UTC)

Yes, I think you're right. As with the 'designer' sportswear, it is the entirely misplaced conception of taste that is as the heart of the stereotype. Might be worth spelling that out more directly.

I wonder if it is worth adding a note about chavdom being highly self-centred (although I'm not sure if that's the turn of phrase I am seeking) , with the typical chav being uninterested in anything beyond their narrow social circle and its mores, manners and friday night scraps. Icundell 19:13, 23 Dec 2004 (UTC)

Sorry but it is not completely true that chavs will not wear gold. Many chavs do live on poor housing states but then again many have the ability to spend £2000 on a car stereo system as well as all the other expensive adjustments. Therefore many have the money and will actually buy gold albeit often low carrat.

revert?

Why do you keep reverting me? All I'm doing is making the part about the jewellery more NPOV. Selphie 21:48, 23 Dec 2004 (UTC) **

Scroll up a bit. I feel that you were being factually inaccurate. If the person is not tacky, they are not chav, the concepts are linked. Not every tacky person is a filthy chavster, but every chav is tacky, by their very nature. Sam Spade wishes you a merry Christmas! 00:11, 24 Dec 2004 (UTC)

Although I think SS went a little over the top, his point about gaudiness being a crucial part of the stereotype is sound. Remember, that in dealing with a stereotype as a stereotype, one must be a bit unflinching in describing it. Remember that it has already been explained at the top that the description is from the POV of the one doing the stereotyping, not the one 'living' it (and SS did leave a note about discussing). I have quoted-up gaudy, though to be consistent with 'tacky'. Icundell 00:19, 24 Dec 2004 (UTC)

I do understand that, but when I look at the goth page, I wouldn't like it to be saying "depressed, wears a lot of black clothes, wants to kill self......." The thing is, "tacky" or not, I was trying to put it in a better light, just like (I hope) someone would remove or re-word the above if they saw it. Selphie 09:31, 24 Dec 2004 (UTC) **

People call themselves goth. Nobody calls themselves chav, to my knowledge. Ones a sub-culture, the others an insult. Sam Spade wishes you a merry Christmas! 10:48, 24 Dec 2004 (UTC)

I don't call myself a goth, or my friends for that matter - but it is the name given to us by others - rightly or wrongly. Selphie 10:52, 24 Dec 2004 (UTC)**

But there is no spite in the Goth stereotype - the term is a perfectly reasonable summation of its influences, if a little simplistic. 'Chav' is a spiteful, belittling stereotype, an out and out put down. That must be brought across in the description (and my neice does call herself a goth). Icundell 11:04, 24 Dec 2004 (UTC)

Where I come from - and in most of the country - goth is a term thrown at people who are "different" to townies and is used as an insult - in the same way myself and others would say........eg "stoopid chavs" they call us "dumb goths" etc. and BTW most people who call themselves a "goth" usually aren't. Selphie 11:11, 24 Dec 2004 (UTC) **

Hmmm. So someone (my niece) doesn't see things the way you do, so she's not 'true'? POV much? Icundell 12:28, 24 Dec 2004 (UTC)

One of the defining characteristics of goths is their desire to exclude others based on minor details, so I wouldn't take that comment too much to heart, Icundell. I used to have gothic roommates (oh the horror, if I hear the cure again I think I'll break something ;) and they were profoundly focused on what was and wasn't gothic, none of it being anything remotely interesting or valid to outsiders. I have had the personal misfortune to be alternately suspected of being gothic and a skinhead, due to the fact I look a bit like Uncle Fester, and thus I have gained no small amount of insight into these two divergent communities respectively. In any case, heres a Chick tract for Selphie, I hope it helps ;) Sam Spade wishes you a merry Christmas! 15:23, 24 Dec 2004 (UTC)

I'm not saying she isn't, all I'm saying is most people come up with different names for their own dempgraphic group, that isn't used as an insult by others, hence my friends and I prefer "Alterno" or some such, cos we aren't 100% goth, or "mosher" (whatever thats supposed to mean) or punk or anything. I'm not saying she's wrong cos she doesn't seet hings like me!!! Selphie 20:20, 26 Dec 2004 (UTC)**

I've been a Skinhead for years, and I still find it amusing when people call me a Skinhead, trying to be derogatory. I am a Skinhead! I'm sure chavs don't mind. --Lex 01:32, 2 Jan 2005 (UTC)

Quote: "People call themselves goth. Nobody calls themselves chav, to my knowledge." (Sam 10:48, 24 Dec 2004 (UTC)) Chav is now a popular word amongst chavs. "Chav and Proud" is typical, though possibly spelled wrong ;) "Chav n prowd" maybe? hehe Syneil - 08:44 25 Jul 2005 (BST)

NPOV

While I understand this is a derogatory term, this page certainly needs to have a more neutral POV. For example, the comment about experiments with classical music to repel Chavs is probably not Wiki style. But nice effort guys, awesome collection of alternative words!

Sorry, I've just read through this and I can't see what is wrong with it. It is a stereotype and within those boundaries it appears to be neutral to me. Can detail which parts of the article are POV and why? --Colin Angus Mackay 28 June 2005 10:31 (UTC)

I agree Colin. The subject is inherently subjective and therefore removing everything that cannot be demonstrated to come from a "reliable, objective" source isn't necessarily helpful. I do, however, think some tidy-up is required and that some remarks are a little OTT but just wiping everything that is not "hard fact" is draconian. Arthur Holland 28 June 2005 11:32 (UTC)

As long as the focus remains that it is a stereotype it is fine. The list of alternative words needs watching very carefully - we don't need a random selection of British terms of prejudice. We don't know whether more than 3 people use some of these anyway. Secretlondon 29 June 2005 17:00 (UTC)

Chavs do seem to wear alot of my Skinhead gear though, lonsdale and fred perry seem to be popular among them

Chav as too broad a stereotype

Although users of the word will often blur the distinction, I think the article should make clear that chav refers to two things which might show a correlation, but often occur separately: chav fashion (eg Burberry-check caps, gaudy jewellery, tucking trousers into socks) and antisocial behaviour patterns (eg heavy drinking, vandalism and aggressive posture and way of speaking). While we might chuckle at others' dress sense, it's completely unfair to label someone as a hooligan just because they're wearing prominently displayed white socks and an Adidas hoodie.

A tricky subject this. While I agree that you shouldn't judge by appearances, almost fifteen years of nightclubbing (and having to get home again afterwards) means I consider it a useful survival tool to avoid certain groups of people, generally I've found that single-sex, single-race (and it doesn't matter which race) groups are best avoided, especially if they're wearing the kinds of clothes mentioned in the accompanying article (or their predecessors before 'chav culture' became predominant among the type of people who like to beat up complete strangers. sheridan 16:33, 2005 Feb 8 (UTC)

Exactly! This is why chav and charva should be utterly seperate articles. A charva is the true form of unruly youth, the ASBO generation. Chav is more exactly the fashion and some aspects of the culture of the charva which has spread beyond them to enter into the mainstream and is in use with all manner of people (i.e. the celebrity chavs) - Josquius

Etymology correct?

Most people I've asked about the word 'chav' say that it's etymological root is 'CHeltenham AVerage", the first two letters of which when joined become 'Chav'; apparently it was a term invented by public shool pupils as a pejorative term to describe the more churlish elements of the lower classes. Can anyone confirm this?

There Are Many Stories Of Where The Word Came From, But I Believ It Comes From Chatham The Birth Place And Holy Land Of The Chav

= The Chatham theory

I have lived in many parts of the UK and first heard the word Chav in Chatham, Kent, when I moved there in January 2001 - used by working class locals to describe the kind of people who fit the stereotype you describe. So, you may be onto something. At the time the property boom had arrived in Chatham/Gillingham/Rochester/Rainham with professionals and commuters snapping up still-cheap homes there en-masse - those who could not afford to live in London, or didn't want to. I reckon that's how the word got spread around the UK in the last few years - it was spread by the chattering classes now resettling all over the Medway towns.

I'd never heard the word before I lived in Chatham. Incidentally, people there call each other 'chav' as something of joke, and some of them dress in that way knowingly, for amusement. At the time I had to ask people what it meant, but it soon became apparent.

Sorry if I haven't followed good form in posting this here - this is my first time on Wikipedia.

Heliodorus

It definatly doesn't derive from some town. I truly believe that charva is the original term for we have had them for well over a decade right back into the late 80s. I had trouble with them when I was at school in the 90s. I doubt it is purely coincidance that this very far fetched acronym bears such a similarity to the romany word charver.

Cheltenham

It's hard to say where the word chav first appeared, but I've been living in the Cheltenham/Gloucestershire area for nearly 20 years now and I first encountered the term here back in the late '80s when I moved here. Whether the story about the Cheltenham Ladies College inventing the term CHeltenham AVerage is true or an urban legend I do not know. It is hard to see how a term invented by a group of school girls in one town could spread into popular culture so quickly though.

The word 'Chav' was orginally was originally police code meaning Council House and Violence. Or so I hear.

Some cleanup issues:

This article requires some cleanup to improve its content and style, in my opinion. Although reading through the chat and page histories, progress has been good. Although there are good descriptions of the definition of a chav, media references and celebrities, I think that a deeper social and political analysis of this phenomenon would greatly improve the quality of content. In particular this article must not be offensive!. I have not added a cleanup banner because I think this is too drastic at this point. I am working on improvements piecemeal from the top down. Opinions, people?

Okay, time for some cleanup!

Opening Statements:

OLD

Chav is a derogatory slang term currently in popular usage in the United Kingdom. It refers to a stereotyped lower-class youth or young adult perceived as uneducated, uncultured and / or violent. The term has been made popular by the tabloid press.'

NEW

Chav is a derogatory slang term currently in popular usage in the United Kingdom. It refers to a subculture strongly associated with an underclass negatively-stereotyped as being uneducated, uncultured and prone to antisocial or immoral behavior. The label is most generally applied only to teenagers and young adults of non-ethnic origin. The term has been popularised by the tabloid press and is something of a buzzword. The term is equivalent to one definition of townie but is more specific in its usage. Response to the term has ranged from acceptance to criticism that the term is a new manifestation of classism. The term is also the subject of humour in the media.'

Explanation of changes: The first sentence has been preserved as it is, although I have made 'derogatory' into a link to clearly define the meaning. I have referred to the perceived-group as a subculture in the second sentence (please see note). 'Lower class' is now 'underclass' because 'lower class' tends to refer to income rather than sensibilities and many celebrities are associated with the term 'chav'. I have added 'negative' to describe the stereotype for emphasis of what it is. I have expanded 'violent' into 'antisocial and immoral behavior'. 'Antisocial behavior' covers violent and well as abusive behavior, plus drug and alcohol abuse, all associated with the term to some degree. The same applies for 'immoral behavior' (sexual promiscuity, lawlessness). I have stated that the term is 'most generally applied to teenagers and young adults of non-ethnic origin'. The last statement is, IMO, true, but this is a controversial issue (note II). The term is also something of a buzzword (with no highly-specific meaning), so I have stated this.

I hope I have cleared-up the redirect issue with the link to townie. 'Chav' should not be redirected to the more vague 'townie', but equally should have a link to it. Last of all, a brief but fair overview of the critical response to the term.

note: I am not sure that a group of people can be semantically classified as a subculture if they are not considered as being a self-identified group. Whether 'chavs' are self-identified is itself debatable and needs more investigation. note II: The issue over whether this group excludes people of ethnic origin is controversial, but overwhelmingly the press presents 'chavs' as being young adult and white. This is either an honest perception or a cynical omission to avoid controversy on the part of the press.

The above material seems pedantic, but this is how to justify changing the text and enables other editors to justify changes to it. Please leave comments below.--ChrisJMoor 04:13, 23 Feb 2005 (UTC)

'Underclass' is wrong. Underclass is what is these days referred to as the 'socially excluded'. Lower class can be income related, but it can also be an aesthetic (for the same reason many nominally 'titled' toffs remain upper class despite not being especially wealthy). What is picked on and stereotyped is a loudly lower class sensibility, not an underclass. Being wealthy is no bar to being a chav. Icundell 01:24, 25 Feb 2005 (UTC)

I'm not certain on the underclass issue, but I used it in the context of a reviled social group such as the Dalit. However, your point that 'chavs' are lower/middle-class in their income or sensibilities is valid. Good edits (but the rest of the article...).--ChrisJMoor 03:35, 26 Feb 2005 (UTC)

You should have seen the original version :->. An underclass has no choice about its status (ie is excluded from the mainstream). The stereotypical chav revels is his or her mediocrity. Icundell 20:01, 26 Feb 2005 (UTC)

Aye, I see your point now. --ChrisJMoor 02:04, 1 Mar 2005 (UTC)

Redirect

This really is a seperate term, perhaps more common in London & The South East and certainly used more than any of those other terms. Might be worth mentioning in article. However it really is the national media that have picked up on it. MRSC 06:34, 20 Feb 2005 (UTC)

It is the southern media which has picked it up in the last year or two. Go read the viz from 10 years+ ago and you will find mention of charvas. --Josquius 12:57, 20 Feb 2005 (UTC)

The word has a life of its own, and absolutely should not be a redirect. (Sam Spade | talk | contributions) 13:17, 20 Feb 2005 (UTC)

This word should definatly be a redirect whether it is to the international term townie or to the correct spelling charva. --Josquius 15:25, 20 Feb 2005 (UTC)

The terms Chav, Charva and Townie all exist and I don't think anyone disputes that. They are related terms. But I don't think they are the same thing and should not redirect to each other. And even if they did, it is not acceptable to redirect an article "hiding" what was written without combining it with the article it redirects to. As it is, both articles are very badly written and could do with a lot of clean up. Redirecting and reverting is simply a waste of energy and does nothing to improve the quality of the articles. BTW There is a programme on TV presented by Janet Street Porter tomorrow night called "Chavs". MRSC 16:04, 20 Feb 2005 (UTC)

Travellers are Chavs now? I don't think so

I don't think the Irish travelling community (or Itinerants, or whatever the PC name is for them these days) are really in the same class as "chavs". Though there are similarities, there's too much that differs between the two (in Ireland anyway).

Well, my point really is that we don't call them the same things. I think the names "pikey" and "knacker" should be removed from the "Derived and similar terms" section, as they refer specifically to travellers, not chavs. Actually, I'll remove them now. There may be some others there that I don't know. I'll keep the link further down though, as it is still relevant.

I also think that section needs some sorting out - there's a small list of some colloquialisms (" Barry Boy (East Anglia), Ned (Scottish), Scally (North-West)..."), but then in the next paragraph there's another list in pretty much the same context. Also, where known, the place of where these words are used should be noted in brackets after, like as some already do.

I have added some used locally in Limerick and nationally (or partially nationally) in Ireland - Scobe, Sham, Wah and I corrected Scumbag (used to say "Dublin, Ireland" after it) as it is used nationally here. I also added "shamming up", as it's used in the exact same context here as described for "chavving up" (e.g. sham up your PC, sham up your car, etc.). --Zilog Jones 19:04, 24 Mar 2005 (UTC)

• That's not actually correct. The first paragraph lists "related terms for urban or suburban miscreants", specifically, whereas the second paragraph lists "similar derogatory terms" in general. And yes, "pikey" and "knacker", being similar derogatory terms albeit not synonyms, do belong in the second paragraph, although on the gripping hand I would prefer much of this content to be in the "see also" section of the chav dictionary entry that is linked to right at the top of the page. Uncle G 19:34, 2005 Mar 24 (UTC)

I see now, but still, it's a bit misleading. Most of those "similar derogatory terms" are pretty much refering to what are generally seen as Chavs - that kind of scene, anyway. That section's kinda made a double standard or something - it's confusing. I still don't think Pikey and Knacker should be there, regardless. --Zilog Jones 19:41, 24 Mar 2005 (UTC)--

• • Irish Travellers should not be listed as chavs. There is very little in common with the two denominations. I have changed that link instead to scanger, since that is a more accurate parallel Irish subculture group.

Doshea3 14:52, 26 Mar 2005 (UTC)

Celebrity chavs

It's fine to have a celebrity chav section, and I don't particularly debate its current role of honour or the wording with which they're used. But we should still cite sources for each person included (exlinks to newspaper stories or whatever). Doing so is good wikipedia practice in general, and additionally it's not impossible that some celeb might object (or theoretically sue) if we don't say who it is that's calling them a chav. -- John Fader (talk | contribs) 21:59, 2 May 2005 (UTC)

Heres a start. Sam Spade 07:19, 3 May 2005 (UTC)

Stereotype of a cliche

The chav graphic has a stupid label: "A cliched image of a stereotypical chav" How can you have a stereotypical image of stereotype? Or a cliched image of a cliche? Let's be clear here: unlike the words 'Northern' or 'black' or 'straight' etc etc, the term 'chav' has no meaning independent of people's image of how certain characteristics are associated: it is 'a stereotype', plain and simple. There's nothing instrinsically bad about that. The page tacitly admits this at several points, but the fact that it resorts to appalling tautologies at various points suggests that people are incredibly coy about that fact.

-Danno, --163.1.167.63 00:16, 21 May 2005 (UTC)

Agreed. I've removed the use of the word cliche, but left stereotype.Arthur Holland 08:51, 22 May 2005 (UTC)

pah

Some of the people editing this page are illiterate clowns - "a council house... stereotype"?? - I just give up. ---163.1.167.63 11:30, 27 May 2005 (UTC)

The "council house... stereotype" was left over from earlier vandalism, along with the phrase "stabby/shooty". I've removed it. Arthur Holland 09:59, 28 May 2005 (UTC)

popbitch

Is "The term was popularised initally by the Popbitch website" (added here) to be taken at face value? It seems a bit fanciful or un-NPOV, really. --12:20, 12 Jun 2005 (UTC)

I agree, removed. --W(t) 14:03, 2005 Jun 12 (UTC)

Celebrity Chavs

"Prince Harry has recently been cited, due to his penchant for baseball caps, sportswear, drinking, and drugs, and for his associations with glamour models. However, his aristocratic background would be at odds with the council estate stereotype.

For a certain group of chavs David and Victoria Beckham are particular role models. The footballer Wayne Rooney would fit the stereotype better, due to his use of abusive language and the anti-social behaviour depicted in the tabloid press.

Michael Carroll is widely regarded as being the epitome of chav culture. When the petty criminal and former dustman won the National Lottery Jackpot of over £9 million, he spent a large proportion of his winnings on gold jewellery, alcohol, drugs and cars.

The Reality Television star Jade Goody is widely regarded as a Chav rolemodel having had two highly publicised pregnancies with no obvious income.

Charlotte Church and Colleen McLoughlin are often referred to as "Queen of the Chavs" by tabloid newspapers and gossip magazines for their apparent lack of style, drunken behaviour, choice of laddish rich boyfriends and no appreciation for the value of money."

-- I've removed the above as it's not NPOV. "Widely regarded" isn't good enough - regarded by who? Who says anyone is a role model? How can one be a role-model to a derogatory stereotype anyway? What I think the author is doing is picking examples of people the tabloids consider to be nouveau riche. Secretlondon 22:51, 16 Jun 2005 (UTC)

David and Victoria Beckham are overwhelmingly regarded as chav's, which should be noted here. This can be easilly cited [3],[4], etc.. As for the rest of it, I can't say much, except that I think Prince Harry was a particularly ridiculous example. ¸,ø¤º°`°º¤ø,¸¸,ø¤º°`°º¤ø,¸¸,ø¤º°`°º¤ø,¸ 29 June 2005 17:08 (UTC)

That's just google. I also note that you're in the US - but I like the idea of someone writing about a media spread stereotype using the media to back up their arguments ;) Secretlondon 29 June 2005 17:14 (UTC)

What else would one use? Anyhow, I'm not in the USA, I'm in Deutschland. I am an american however, overseas defending freedom (military deployment ;). Why did you think I was in the USA? The google search maybe? ¸,ø¤º°`°º¤ø,¸¸,ø¤º°`°º¤ø,¸¸,ø¤º°`°º¤ø,¸ 29 June 2005 17:22 (UTC)

Because I remember you trolling Wikipedia when I was last here 12 months ago? Secretlondon 30 June 2005 10:41 (UTC)

You can put Carroll back in, his car has "King of the Chavs" down the side, plus he's appeared on the news often enough (ASBO etc). 82.70.225.97 30 June 2005 16:36 (UTC)

On the other hand I think most of the others are a lot less exemplary of the common use of the term and the association has mostly came from the media using the term as a way of calling them unsophisticated.

The Streets as chav music ? Oliyoung 00:34, 6 September 2005 (UTC)

Yes Mick Skinner even stated that he is "Making music for the Chav generation" NME 2004 ~

Chav as Prejudice

• BBC News article may give food for thought. Secretlondon 30 June 2005 10:42 (UTC)

Disputed?

Is there still a factual dispute, or can we pull the banner now? —Ashley Y July 4, 2005 09:47 (UTC)

Every synonym, backronym and stereotype that doesn't cite sources is in dispute.

chocolateboy 4 July 2005 17:40 (UTC)

Who's disputing it? —Ashley Y July 4, 2005 23:16 (UTC)

Me, Google [5] [6] and Wikipedia policy.

chocolateboy 5 July 2005 02:29 (UTC)

Non-ethnic?

Sorry, perhaps this has been cleared up and I missed it...In reference to the clean up issues and proposed rewrites: nobody is "non-ethnic". We all belong to an ethnic group. I suppose you are trying to be euphemistic and what you really mean by non-ethnic is "white-british". Personally, I think it is best to just come out and say "white-british", they say it on census forms, so why not say it here? I think that is better than saying "non-ethnic", which is reminiscent of a kind of strange thinking whereby British people just exist and everyone who is different from them is "ethnic" or "other". Its high time to admit we are all members of one, or several, ethnic groups, and we are shaped and influenced by our own culture(s). There is no neutral point from which we can survey what our fellow humans get up to.

On a different note, I've just been to Bosnia and Croatia, and in discussing with my British friend who lives there about how things are, he told me about a subculture that we decided was best described as "Balkan Chav". Perhaps someone has some more information about this? It seems that the wikipedia page about Turbo-folk (a genre of music) refers to this subculture, without making any overt links to Chavism. Perhaps the Chav page could link to the page about Turbo-folk as i think there are some interesting comparisons to be made. Cheers, Tatiana

new section

From Peejaybee

In Kent, since my early days in the 1940s, the term 'chav' or 'chavvy' has been used in an affectionate way for a young male, from birth, through to teenage - more so in East Kent, it is not a 'new' term, and has been used for many years; in the late 1960s, I was given a book of poems by a Gypsy, and in the glossary, the author states that 'chav' is a young man or male child

In Mexico and Central America Chavo means young man, Chava young woman. Presumably some Latin root, SqueakBox 21:32, July 17, 2005 (UTC)

Apparently in Mexico they call 'Chavs' 'Guidos' is that right?

To whomever provided the cartoon chav

You forgot to draw him with his trackies tucked into his socks, an essential element of chaviness!

Minor Change

Altered the introduction slightly to be non-specific about ethnicity and class. These people are not confined to white/working class - they are everywhere, & can come from any/every background. Grey Area 07:31, 27 July 2005 (UTC)

Bringing it on themselves?

"However, many also believe that by conforming to these social standards 'chavs' are stereotyping themselves, rather than being victims of any kind of class slur. Also, some point out that 'chavs' are not always from the working class - one famous person displaying many chav qualities is model Jordan, who comes from an upper-class family but embraces 'chav' fashion sense and morality. There is an intense mutual dislike between chavs and the group commonly named (usually by chavs) as 'grungers' - although an affiliation with grunge music is not always present. It has become common in certain internet forums and the like for chavs to complain about their cultural stereotyping, and then launch on a similar anti-grunger tirade, believing rock fans to be behind the common portrayal - although some would say that such websites, notably www.chavscum.co.uk present a reliable view of the truth, and the satirising webmaster should not be held responsible for having exposed chavs' own failings."

Inserted by an anon, removed from the article and copied here by me. Secretlondon 10:18, 6 August 2005 (UTC)

Ali G?

I'm fascinated by how our language has forked on the other side of the pond, and I'm interested in the modern slang of "olde" english. Is the Ali G charicature an example of a Chav? Over here in the States, it seems like a Chav is someone that has a culture identity crisis. I'm a big fan of the movie Snatch, which introduced me to Pikeys, but i've never heard of Chav before.
Cfpresley 04:03, 15 August 2005 (UTC)

No. Ali G is a charva not a chav. Chav is just a fashion of burberry and the like which he certainly does not wear. -Josquius

Ali G is a satire on 'Chavs' and 'wiggers' 83.100.174.192 01:45, 28 September 2005 (UTC)Stuart

Different car stereotype?

Removed from article today - added by an anon, unsourced as ever.

"** Large 4x4 vehicles, in particular the Mitsubishi Shogun are known as 'Chav Wagons', and are the preferred family car. More recently 4x4 pickup trucks have become fashionable. These vehicles make a statement about 'Chav' attitude to the environment and community."

This contradicts the boy racer stereotype further up. Secretlondon 00:45, 17 August 2005 (UTC)

I posted this. 4x4 vehicles (and sometimes the other cars listed) are referred to a Chav Wagons, at least in Medway through to Sittingbourne and Faversham. Visit Sittingbourne or Chatham Asda any day of the week and the so called Chav dads are driving 4x4s and more recently pickup trucks such as the Mitsubishi Animal. I have no source, only local knowledge having been born and brought up in Chatham and now living in Sittingbourne with a wife from Faversham. The term Chav Wagon may mean something else in other parts of the country. Personally I've never come across the term ChavMobile. I would consider this to be in addition to the boy racer stereotype rather than a contradiction to it. --Mrwhipster 02:06, 17 August 2005 (UTC)

Perhaps there should be a link to http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rice_burner as well?

I think that term may be US-only. Secretlondon 02:15, 19 September 2005 (UTC)

I have never seen a 'Chavwagon' as you put. From my experience they drive used hatchbacks with gaudy modifications like inefficient tailgates or undercsr lights. 195.194.144.2 08:25, 6 October 2005 (UTC)

Chav - Possible links with Essex Girls/Boys

Before the term Chav was widely used, Essex girls were the brunt of many jokes. These jokes have now been rewritten with 'Essex' replaced with 'Chatham'. There would seem to be many similarities between both groups e.g. fashion and car modding, except maybe the Chavs come from a lower income group than their Essex counterparts. I would exclude many of the negative properties of Chavs from the comparison as it is probably unfair to label everyone from Essex as anti-social. --Mrwhipster 02:54, 17 August 2005 (UTC)

"Michael Carrol self-proclaimed King of The Chavs" - self-proclaimed? I frequently see this sobriquet used, but I assumed it was a media (i.e. The Sun) invention. Jooler 18:42, 24 August 2005 (UTC)

American Slang

The term chav is stated as being equivalent to the american concept of white trash or trailer trash. This is incorrect. White Trash and Trailer Trash tend to be a less civilized, country style of person. The typical concept of a redneck. A chav appears to be more closely related to a wigger or a poser. This is the type of person who tries to dress and act as if they are thugs, raised on the streets, as if they are black. However, rarely are these people actually black. Even more rarely are they actually thugs. They tend to be rich or well off middle class white kids.

I agree. I changed the article to reflect that. Brianreading 02:50, 6 September 2005 (UTC)