Talk:Colt AR-15

"AR" does not stand for "ArmaLite Rifle"

I posted this update to the article, but it was reverted. "AR" does not stand for ArmaLite rifle. It is a common misunderstanding that unfortunately has made its way into some supposedly authoritative sources. Unfortunately, the reference link posted in the article no longer exists. How do we know that "AR" does not stand for ArmaLite rifle? ArmaLite used the "AR" prefix for at least two firearms that are not rifles, the AR-9 and AR-17 (both are shotguns). "AR" is just a simple prefix chosen by ArmaLite, and most likely is a reference to the first two letters of the company name. One authoritative source... https://www.nssf.org/msr/ Also... Note that the reference link in the article used to support the incorrect "ArmaLite Rifle" theory is a 404. Wingovercr (talk) 13:22, 2 August 2024 (UTC)

And this [[1]] says otherwise. Slatersteven (talk) 13:27, 2 August 2024 (UTC)

The link listed in your reference to the NSSF site actually states this:

• The AR in “AR-15” rifle stands for ArmaLite, after the company that developed it in the 1950s. “AR” does NOT stand for "ArmaLite Rifle," “assault rifle,” or “automatic rifle.”

Wingovercr (talk) 13:30, 2 August 2024 (UTC)

" The AR in "AR-15" rifle stands for ArmaLite rifle, after the company that developed it in the 1950s. "AR" does NOT stand for "assault rifle" or "automatic rifle."". Slatersteven (talk) 13:32, 2 August 2024 (UTC)

The actual text on the NSSF page does not say "ArmaLite Rifle," it just says "ArmaLite." The AR prefix was also used for shotguns, which are definitely not rifles. Every gun that ArmaLite made had a model number that began with "AR," which negates the idea that the "R" stands for "Rifle." Wingovercr (talk) 13:37, 2 August 2024 (UTC)

I did not quote them. Slatersteven (talk) 13:43, 2 August 2024 (UTC)

I did not say that you quoted anyone, but you did link to a site that clearly states that "AR" stands for "ArmaLite" (with no "rifle"). Wingovercr (talk) 15:45, 2 August 2024 (UTC)

I did to link to the NSSF site, you did. Slatersteven (talk) 15:47, 2 August 2024 (UTC)

The link (address) appears in the letter by Brian Harte that you linked to. The quote that you did make from that letter is an exact quote of the NSSF page, except that someone (apparently Brian Harte) has added the word "rifle" to it. In fact, that entire letter is a quote of the NSSF page, except that for some reason, Harte decided to misquote "ArmaLite" as "ArmaLite Rifle." Wingovercr (talk) 15:53, 2 August 2024 (UTC)

So? that is what he said, nor is it my only source, nw I have said I will not post, so please stop trying to make an issue where none exists, it was an accurate quote from a source I linked to, anything else is irrelevant. Slatersteven (talk) 15:56, 2 August 2024 (UTC)

Yes, that is what some dude said in a letter (with no organizational letterhead or other official markings) when he misquoted the actual site that he linked to (NSSF), which is an official site of a nationally accredited firearms organization. Wingovercr (talk) 16:00, 2 August 2024 (UTC)

[[2]] "First recorded in 1960–65; shortening of ArmaLite Rifle, not of assault rifle ( def ), as commonly thought". Slatersteven (talk) 13:35, 2 August 2024 (UTC)

https://abc7chicago.com/ar-guns-myths-about-armalite/12102897/ Wingovercr (talk) 13:39, 2 August 2024 (UTC)

Ohh well if we are going for news sources [[3]], [[4], [[5]]. Slatersteven (talk) 13:42, 2 August 2024 (UTC)

[[6]]. Slatersteven (talk) 13:37, 2 August 2024 (UTC)

https://www.rockislandauction.com/riac-blog/what-does-ar-stand-for-in-ar-15 Wingovercr (talk) 13:41, 2 August 2024 (UTC)

I forgot to mention the AR-24, which is also not a rifle (it's a handgun). Wingovercr (talk) 13:43, 2 August 2024 (UTC)

That seems to be talking about it does not mean assault rifle, we do not say it does. Slatersteven (talk) 13:47, 2 August 2024 (UTC)

It doesn't mean any kind of rifle. "AR" is just a prefix for the ArmaLite corporation and has been applied to rifles, shotguns, and handguns. It does not stand for ArmaLife Rifle... just ArmaLite. Wingovercr (talk) 14:30, 2 August 2024 (UTC)

So my last source here, time for others to chip is [[7]]. Slatersteven (talk) 13:49, 2 August 2024 (UTC)

https://www.nramuseum.org/guns/the-galleries/innovation,-oddities-and-competition/case-22-the-weird-and-the-wonderful/armalite-ar-17-golden-gun-shotgun.aspx Wingovercr (talk) 14:31, 2 August 2024 (UTC)

At this point I would really like to know what the "R" in AR-17 and AR-24 stands for. If the AR-24 handgun is actually a rifle, tons of people would be able to buy one that cannot buy one now. Wingovercr (talk) 15:43, 2 August 2024 (UTC)

I'm not sure why this is even a discussion. According to Armalite themselves, "ArmaLite is best known for the development of the “AR” or “ArmaLite Rifle” platform". Yes, they have made other firearms since the original AR-15 and AR-10, and continued the AR nomenclature for brand recognition, but per the company themselves, this is the meaning of the "AR". I will stand by the company's own definition, until they say otherwise. Using any other source means we are basing this on WP:OR, or poorly educated blogs and newscasters who couldn't bother to visit Armalite's website and read it for themselves. I have also updated the ref for those that are too lazy to click on any other links when they reach a 404 page on the company's website. - Adolphus79 (talk) 16:28, 2 August 2024 (UTC)

For what it's worth, the modern Armalite company is not the same company as the one sold by Fairchild and later closed down. The modern company bought the trademark rights of the old company. [8] I can see Wingovercr's concern as possibly legitimate. When Armalite came up with the AR-1 rifle (presumably the first design using that naming scheme) they might have been thinking ARmalite 1 or Armalite Rifle 1. Both would make sense. Once the naming scheme had been started it's easy to understand why they might stick with AR even for non-rifles. I also get being careful about trusting many news media sources who are saying "AR" means Armalite Rifle in context of stories about the controversy associated with AR-15 style rifles. Those sources are unlikely to have asked anyone involved with the original company what they meant. All that said, absent a good source (ie a source that consulted with those at the old Armalite company), I would suggest we either leave things alone or perhaps narrowly follow the best source we have (the NSSA source) and just say it stands for "ArmaLite rifle". Yes, it does make it ambiguous which R is being referenced but it also means we aren't going to be wrong. I will note even on Firearms forums and similar social media pages it seems some feel it stands for ARmalite while others say Armalite Rifle. Springee (talk) 17:53, 2 August 2024 (UTC)

"Absent a good source"? Like, the company themselves? "Old Armalite" or "new Armalite" does not matter, the company's website has always said, and still says, "Armalite Rifle". I can not think of a better source for information about what a company's abbreviation stands for than the company themselves. - Adolphus79 (talk) 18:05, 2 August 2024 (UTC)

The company that actually came up with the AR name, per the ArmaLite wiki article became defunct in 1983. The modern company isn't the same organization so it would be similar to any number of other AR-15 manufactures saying what AR stands for. They can certainly say that, with respect to their current product line, AR means Armalite Rifle. However, they aren't really in a position to speak for a naming scheme that was devised in the 1950s by a company that went under 13 years before the current Armalite was established. I'm not sure the current Armalite even has the AR-15 trademark (I think Colt owns it). I'm also not sure this is a issue that needs correcting but if it does I would suggest simply switching to a lower case "rifle" as it hedges between the sources that say ARmalite and those that say Armalite Rifle. An alternative solution would be to state that sources variously say it stands for "Armalite" or "Armalite Rifle". Springee (talk) 19:29, 2 August 2024 (UTC)

But that's not the company themselves. The original ArmaLite company that created the AR-15 never referred to AR as meaning "ArmaLite Rifle." That company folded in the 1980s and never had a website. After [the name and logo] passing through several different owners, the current icompany, which has no relationship whatsoever with the original ArmaLite begain in 1996. The original owner of the current iteration purchased the ArmaLite brand name and logo. This is an entirely different company (let's call it "Armalite 2" here, to avoid confusion). The only thing that Armalite 2 has in common with the original ArmaLite is the name and logo.

The website of Armalite 2 has occasionally referred to the "AR" in AR-15 as meaning "ArmaLite Rifle," but there is a big issue with that... Armalite 2 has never owned the "AR-15" trademark, so they have absolutely no say in what it means. The last time any company named ArmaLite or Armalite owned the AR-15 trademark was in 1959, when the original ArmaLite sold the AR-15 design and trademark to Colt. In 1959, the "AR" in AR-15 just stood for ArmaLite (not ArmaLite Rifle), and since 1959, Colt's Manufacturing Company (not ArmaLite or Armalite 2) is the only entity that has any authority to change that... and they never have. In fact, Colt will often tell you that "AR" is simply a model designator that stands for nothing, since the ArmaLite that designed it hasn't existed for about 40 years, and Colt sees no reason to give ArmaLite any credit since Colt is the company that rescued the AR-15 from oblivion and made it a household word. Notice, for example, that although Armalite 2 has AR-10s on their website, there are no AR-15s. Armalite 2 has to call it an "M-15" to avoid infringing on Colt's ownership of the AR-15. Wingovercr (talk) 19:40, 2 August 2024 (UTC)

Royal Armories youtube video on AR-15 nomenclature points out 1959 automatic AR-15s were sold as Colt AR-15s

The Royal Armories recently put out a youtube video clarifying the nomenclature of the Colt AR-15 making the point that Fully automatic select fire rifles were sold by colt as Colt model AR-15 to the UK among other customers, in 1959, for instance, years before the M-16 designation would exist. And so it is incorrect to say that the Colt AR-15 was exclusively a semi-automatic and not a select fire fully automatic rifle. The article should be corrected to reflect this. Not to mention, given that the M-16 was developed from the Armalight AR-15 which became the Colt AR-15 it's kind of ridiculous to have ever tried to make the argument, you could have tried to make the argument that the m-16 was developed from the armalight ar-15 and then with the colt acquisition they diverged if history had been a little more cooperative, and I suppose, a little more convenient, but it's kind of like saying that the cucv trucks based like, the dodge w200 trying to say that the cucv came first rather than the dodge w200 which came first, obviously. Sadly history is a little more messy, a little less tidy, a little more complicated than the easy colt ar-15 one thing, colt m-16 a different thing. Even with the understanding that the colt designation of the m-16 was always AR-15... You can't put the cart before the horse saying the m-16 came first.Fanccr (talk) 17:11, 21 August 2024 (UTC)

intro - describing all colt ar-15s as "lightweight"

Is it correct to describe all versions of the colt ar-15 as lightweight? Fanccr (talk) 08:49, 16 September 2024 (UTC)

do RS? Slatersteven (talk) 10:17, 16 September 2024 (UTC)

Of course not. Also doesn't demarco manufacture some of the rifles? Have any under the AR-15 line been made by demarco?Fanccr (talk) 08:28, 17 September 2024 (UTC)

THis is about the colt rifle, not derivatives. Slatersteven (talk) 08:45, 17 September 2024 (UTC)

Colt Canada - Diemarco makes a licensed copy of the Colt rifles, some of which, particularly since Colt acquired Diemarco have been sold by Colt itself under Colt branding, as well as Diemarco and Colt Canada branding. Do we have reliable sources saying that every Colt AR-15 has been manufactured by Colt itself rather than Diemarco or Colt Canada? I may not have entirely understood your point if this response does not address it. Are you suggesting the intro should be to say the Colt AR-15 is based on the lightweight Armalite AR-15 manufactured by Colt?Fanccr (talk) 10:24, 17 September 2024 (UTC)

Magazine capacity

The first commercial/civilian colt ar-15s which this article is ostensibly about were the "sporter sp-1", which, being a sporting rifle, were sold with a 5 round magazine by colt. At the time, and even in many cases to this day for sporting rifles that is a standard magazine size, while of course, the first military contract colt AR-15s, being designed for military applications, were sold with 20 round magazines. The magazine section in the article seems to push a biased narrative, ignoring the history of the actual product line. 30 round magazines did get adopted by the military first and then the civilian market adopted them, particularly after the sunset of the awb, during which time, of course in the united states market, there were magazine limits iirc. The section as it is makes even less sense understanding that the original pinned 5 rd magazines were, presumably the same length as a 20 round standard capacity military magazine. Not to mention it would be more interesting to include information about the chronic unreliability of the 30 round magazine curved, the different follower designs used over time to address reliability problems and so on. As it is now the section is unsourced and seems to be biased and include original research. Fanccr (talk) 04:21, 8 October 2024 (UTC)

Do you have a reliabel source for all of this? - Adolphus79 (talk) 15:04, 8 October 2024 (UTC)