Talk:Cotter (surname)

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We CANNOT put article entitled “ Cottier ” UNDER article entitled “ Cotter ” : this, etymologically and historically, would be a SERIOUS MISTAKE (and I, as a linguist, have often done research, and written on, family names in several Indo-European languages).

If need be - but only if it's REALLY necessary - we may eventually come to dissociate names “ Cottier ” and “ Cotter ” (though that, too, would be a MISGUIDED INTERPRETATION of the origin of “ Cotter ” as a family name).

“ 'Cottier' ” is derived from Latin ''cottus'', referring to a land labourer who did not own the land he worked on, but did not pay rent for it, either : he 'paid back' the owner of the land by cultivating the plot allotted to him, and lived in a small, thatched hut or lodging which came to be called as a 'cottage'.

WHAT FOLLOWS COMES FROM MY OWN WORK AND RESEARCH in ETYMOLOGY AND MEANING OF FAMILY NAMES IN SEVERAL INDO-EUROPEAN LANGUAGES :

“ cottier ” (common noun) :

1. In Switzerland :

A person who hires a small cottage, with or without a plot of land. “ Cottiers ” commonly aid in the work of the landlord's farm.

2. In France :

Same etymology ane meaning as for 1. (Switzerland)

3. In Great-Britain and Ireland :

cottier, common noun [from Old French. cotier. See also : cotter] ; a medieval English villein [syn: cotter].

In Great-Britain and Ireland : a person who hires a small cottage, with or without a plot of land. Cottiers commonly aid in the work of the landlord's farm. [Written also cottar and cotter.]

“ Cottier ” (family name) :

“ Cotter ” (family name) :

French language:

English language:

Status name from Middle English “ cotter ”, a technical term in the feudal system for a serf or bond tenant who held a cottage by service rather than rent, from Old English “ cot ” : 'cottage', 'hut' ; (see “ Coates ” + -er agent suffix).

Status name for a cottager, or a topographic name for someone who lived in a relatively humble dwelling (from Middle English “ cotes ” , plural (or genitive) of “ cote ” , “ cott ” ) ; or a habitational name from any of the numerous places named with this word.

German language

“ Kötter ” (family name) : Status name for a farm laborer who lived in a cottage or hovel with no land, from an agent derivative of Middle High German and Middle Low German “ kote ” : 'cottage', 'hovel' .

“ Koth ” (family name) :

German (also “ Köth ” ) : from Middle German “ kote ” ‘cottage’, ‘hovel’, a status name for a day laborer who lived in a cottage and owned no farmland. Elisabeth Cottier Fábián 23:02, 28 March 2006 (UTC)

Ottar 1142

The Annals of the kingdom of Ireland, doesn't actually say that a record of Ottar of Dublin is the earliest record of the Irish name.--Celtus (talk) 07:23, 27 May 2009 (UTC)

It is a primary source, it is a history not a genealogical treatise, it wouldn't mention anything about name derivation, it just mentions the name as a surname (patronymic).

The History of the County and City of Cork, By Charles Bernard Gibson, Published by T.C. Newby, 1861 p.166. (footnote), makes a definite connection between the Hebridean who became the King of Dublin and the Cotters of Cork - specifically Sir James Cotter of Anngrove.

The name was used in Ireland by an earlier man, Ottir Dub, but as a personal name. Ireland was one of the earliest European countries to regularise the use of surnames after they fell out of use following the demise of the Roman Empire. The early 12th century is when many of these surnames become fixed, to look for an earlier use of the surname would be entirely fruitless.Urselius (talk) 09:07, 29 May 2009 (UTC)

The book of Irish Families, Great & Small by Michael C. O'Laughlin Edition: 3, Published by Irish Roots Cafe, 2002 ISBN 0940134098, states - "We have one early reference to Mac Oitir in the 12th century..." concerning the King of Dublin of that name. This sounds a lot like it is the earliest to me. However, to save your obvious sensibilities with reference to the absolute usage of the word "earliest" I have amended the text. Urselius (talk) 09:21, 29 May 2009 (UTC)

The Victorian book isn't a primary source at all. The previous version of the the article completely misrepresented what the book said. We can't do that kind of thing. Anyways, i suspect the primary source for the 1142 record would be the Annals of Ulster. I'll put that in instead of the Victorian ref. Even so, we can't say that the 1142 record is the earliest record of the surname when we don't have a reference that says exactly that. We can't just assume it, or attempt to 'read between the lines', because that's where mistakes start to creep in (see WP:Synthesis). For instance, the 1142 'son of Ottar' isn't the first on record in an Irish context, there is one recorded as being killed in the early 900s. See? I noticed the O'Laughlin book says there is no known connection between the 1142 'son of Ottar' and any Co Cork families.--Celtus (talk) 06:15, 30 May 2009 (UTC)

The "Victorian book" was a compilation of original annals translated into English. It is as primary as, say, the Doomesday Book translated into English from the original Latin or the Anabasis of Xenophon translated from Ancient Greek. The Victorian book has the original Irish text in parallel which is a positive advantage. It is digitised in its separate volumes, you may only have viewed the index volume. Urselius (talk) 11:02, 31 May 2009 (UTC)

I have covered the origins of the noble Irish family at Cotter Baronets. It is undoubtedly of some Norse extraction. DinDraithou (talk) 20:17, 22 July 2010 (UTC)