Talk:Crème fraîche

Comment 1

Ok people, what's the point? I'm just trying to feed my guests, not make lab rats out of them?? Right??? Sour Cream will do just fine in America!

Sour cream will do just fine most of the time but creme fraiche is different!! I make a topping with creme fraiche and whipped heavy cream for waffles and I know it would not taste the same if I made it with sour cream and heavy cream. Don't be a food isolationist!!--71.192.19.89 16:35, 31 December 2006 (UTC)

Also creme fraiche isn't as sour as sour cream. Or as thick. I put it on toast, for example. Plus I believe it's used to hold the caviar on the blini, and sour cream wouldn't work as well (I've never eaten caviar though so I can't speak authoritatively.) Fumblebruschi 21:39, 31 January 2007 (UTC)

It's the first time i have something to write on a wikipedia page, so i don't know if i can edit it right away. I'm french, and i definitely taste the difference between sour cream and crème fraiche. Somebody directed me to the following site to make crème fraiche with US products. I learned something about this kind of cream when i read that it was relying on the action of bacteria. The site is : http://splendidtable.publicradio.org/recipes/sauce_fraiche.html Moza moza 00:39, 10 April 2007 (UTC) I also added a try of translation from the french wiki page, to explain the difference in cooking between the two, but my english is not accurate enough to translate everything. Moza moza 00:57, 10 April 2007 (UTC)

"does not cite sources..."

but it's just fact, why should it?!—Preceding unsigned comment added by 81.149.41.98 (talk) 14:19, 18 April 2007 (UTC)

But how do we know it's a fact without reputable sources to back it up? I'll take care of it, though. I have Harold McGee's book right here, so I'll double check the claims in the article and add it as a source. digfarenough (talk) 15:39, 18 April 2007 (UTC)

liquide

Someone removed the mention of liquide vs. épaisse, giving a french-canadian reference that I can't read. Can anyone translate it to tell me specifically what it says? I looked at McGee's chapter on dairy again and found that what was stated is true: crème fraîche liquide is an unfermented cream of 30-40% fat. Crème fraîche épaisse is fermented and thicker. It appears that what has caused confusion is the European terms for cream do not include "whipping cream," crème fraîche is listed by McGee as the type of cream that corresponds to the American term "whipping cream." Thus it seems that liquide is indeed what I as an American would call whipping cream whereas épaisse is fermented and is thus what I would normally call simply "crème fraîche." I am not 100% sure about this, though. I know that liquide and whipping cream have the same fat content, but I don't know if there is any difference in their processing. Any input? digfarenough (talk) 00:13, 30 June 2007 (UTC)

...no ingredients are added...

Please expand on this clause to clarify what is meant by "no ingredients are added". Thx. --CheMechanical (talk) 22:08, 13 June 2008 (UTC)

I'm guessing that whoever wrote that was referring to making it at home, or perhaps a traditional method, where ambient bacteria from the room culture the cream. However all the commercial creme fraiche (and crema mexicana, which tastes similar) that I've bought have bacterial cultures listed in the ingredients. A commercial cheesemaker friend I asked said that it's very unlikely that any large scale production of any cultured cream product would use ambient room bacteria for a culture, as quality control is almost impossible. She also said it's against health codes in most US states. I'm going to remove that sentence. Pvercello (talk) 04:42, 31 July 2010 (UTC)

European / US division

Whilst crème fraîche has an increasing popularity in the United Kingdom, soured cream is at least as prevalent, and has a longer history. A better deliniations would be between continental Europe, and anglophone nations. I've made this change.

Che Gannarelli (talk) 15:16, 8 July 2008 (UTC)

I don't recognise this description of the UK situation. Maybe there are regional differences. Here in the Midlands, sour cream is not at all part of indigenous cuisine. It is easy enough to get, but is almost always associated with Polish, Ukrainian or Lithuanian communities. In fact, the carton generally has the word smetana or something similar on it, although you do occasionally see soured cream from one of the larger dairies in supermarkets. Obviously, crème fraîche is associated with France, but so canonical is French cuisine in the UK that all supermarkets sell it, under the French name, irrespective of its provenance. It's true that smetana has been around for a long while (I've been buying it for 35 years at least), but never in such quantities, or catering to so wide a market. Crème fraîche is now universal, with even small local grocers and the discounters stocking it.Sjwells53 (talk) 20:22, 7 January 2009 (UTC)

I've checked around a bit since my last comment here, and simply can't find any traditional UK origins for soured cream. Beeton (mid-Victorian) never mentions it, nor does Hartley (mid-20th cent.). I first bought 'sour cream' as a student in the early '70's: always in delicatessens, which in those days mostly stocked central and eastern European food. In the late '70's, I lived in Hull, near a fair-sized Ashkenazi community, and could buy it in some of the supermarkets - particularly the ones that stocked Jewish foods. The name alone was unacceptable to most English consumers, who construed it as meaning the cream had gone "off", owing to bacterial infection. So it gradually became 'soured' cream, to imply it was a controlled process, and it got a small foothold in supermarkets. Today, with many recent Polish and Lithuanian workers around, I can into a Lithuanian shop and look out for smietana or similar in a big, cheap, imported carton. I am pretty certain that sour or soured cream has spread exactly to the degree that Eastern Europen communities have grown and become visible, and that there is no UK, and probably no Western European unless perhaps Dutch, basis.

The stuff about Anglophone cultures seems to me wrong. I am sure things are quite different in the US, where I saw soured cream featured in old films, for example. Surely that is because the proportion of German and eastern European migrants, including lots of Jews, was much larger from at least the mid-19th century. So, as the US dairy industry took off, it incorporated all sorts of goods we never saw in the UK. These became as American as apple pie - which, incidentally, actually is English. Another very English thing is class, and that also has a lot to do with how foods are taken up. Sour cream, from poor Jewish or Polish working class people, was never going to get established here, while French cooking has prestige. Sauerkraut never took off either, but middle-class people happily eat choucroute garni. Gherkins are a joke, but cornichons grace the best tables.Sjwells53 (talk) 14:14, 11 February 2009 (UTC)

The stuff about Anglophone cultures is indeed wrong. I think the person who wrote that meant Europe in some way, or Western Europaean countries. About that Smetana, I meant Smetana from the original countries, not from US and UK. By the way, Canada is a Francofile country using a lot of Crème fraîche.

Warrington (talk) 14:30, 11 February 2009 (UTC)

Viscosity

I think I understand it, but the article is incredibly confusing when discussing viscosity. The first paragraph mentions "high viscosity", while the second mentions that it has a "lower viscosity". I believe the second means lower than sour cream, but it would be much clearer were that made explicit, especially following the initial mention of high viscosity.

I second the third section's question about what it means to say "no ingredients added". Also, the part about "very careful to maintain viscosity" tells very little. If nothing is added, exactly what is done to maintain this viscosity? Are they careful not to disturb the cream? Not to stir it? Some detail there may be of use. Especially as "no ingredients are added", there are only a few things that can be done to maintain viscosity.

It just seems a bit vague on some details, confusing on others, and strangely precise on others (eg pH of 4.5). 68.32.172.192 (talk) 22:33, 5 August 2008 (UTC)

Crème fraîche

Crème fraîche is thick and not liquid. Crème fraîche can NOT be mixed with air to form whipped cream. That is plain cream or whipping cream, not crème fraîche. Crème fraîche is much thicker than ceam, it’s a type of sour cream.

"Crème fleurette" is a term used by dairy and restaurant professionals to refer to fluid crème fraîche that has undergone only pasteurization. This term was also once used to refer to the cream that formed spontaneously on the surface of milk that was stored without being shaken. Warrington (talk) 12:09, 14 September 2008 (UTC)

Agreed, sort of. Crème fraîche épaisse is, by definition, thick. Moreover, it gets thicker with keeping. If you try whipping it, it simply gets runnier, although it thickens again later, with no discernible change in volume. I've never encountered anything but the épaisse variety in the UK or France, but liquide may still exist, or there would be no need for the distinguishing designation.

Plain cream itself only whips successfully if it has the right balance of solids, fats, etc to water. UK single cream is plain cream, but won't whip. Double cream whips easily and retains air better, but costs a good deal more, and of course its high fat content is unacceptable to some. "Whipping cream" in the UK is simply unfermented cream with the lowest fat content practicable for whipping, and so fits into the price structure somewhere between single and double cream. In the past, I remember, it sometimes contained gelling and other agents to make it work better, or at least to cheapen it, but that seems to have stopped about 30 years ago. Today, you can get it fresh, or UHT, and even in a form with the fat replaced with vegetable oil.Sjwells53 (talk) 13:47, 11 February 2009 (UTC)

crem fresh redirect

somebody should make a page "crem fresh" to redirect here. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 24.84.173.161 (talk) 09:04, 14 December 2008 (UTC)

Ok, done.

Warrington (talk) 14:14, 15 December 2008 (UTC)

for cooking

in the Netherlands crème fraîche is used a lot for cooking, as it is much less likely to curdle than sour cream (*not* just as likely). Fat percentage is usually about 35% (*not* 28%). Is the article mistaken or is this just a local difference here? —Preceding unsigned comment added by 145.94.17.144 (talk) 17:04, 7 January 2009 (UTC)

Fat content varies a lot, even in France. 30% is very common, both there and in the UK: I have cartons from Lidl UK and French Auchan in my fridge at the moment and both are 30%. I've bought "lite" versions, with about 15%, in a number of French retailers, including Leader Price. Generally, if you buy an artisanal product, it may be made from the milk of a specific bred of cattle and have a higher fat content, and a correspondingly higher price.

As regards curdling, I can't say I've noticed much difference between cultured dairy products. Heat and acid tend to separate them all. Stir them in well, keep the temperature well below boiling, and don't put the lid on, and you can mostly stop curdling. Sjwells53 (talk) 20:22, 7 January 2009 (UTC)

That is because you haven’t tried the Russian and Finnish style sour cream, different from the Western style products.

Warrington (talk) 13:55, 11 February 2009 (UTC)

Actually, the stuff I buy these days is often labelled in Cyrillic and in various Baltic languages, and it has precisely the same chemical and physical characteristics you would expect. All dairy products will separate if you expose them to heat and/or acid. Its simply because they contain materials that become solid and insoluble under those conditions. There's a bit of discussion on these pages about this, but I think you'll find that no cultural or culinary tradition has yet found a way to defy the laws of science. Claudia Roden recommends a little cornflour when cooking with dairy products. This doesn't stop the separation, as she implies, but it does disguise it nicely.Sjwells53 (talk) 16:48, 11 February 2009 (UTC)

Well, the difference is when making a casserole with Smetena produced in Russia and not for export is that Crème fraîche melts in the oven and soakse the whole dish, eeverything becames wet and watery and disgusting. Smetena does not.

Warrington (talk) 18:24, 11 February 2009 (UTC)

Confusing

Hi, I'm not a very experienced Wiki user and definitely not an expert on cooking, but this part confuses me: Crème fraîche (IPA: [kʁɛm fʁɛʃ], French for "fresh cream"), of French origin, is the Western European counterpart to the soured cream more traditional to Western Europe and Anglophone cultures.

It's a Western European counterpart to something that is more traditional to Western Europe?? Can someone with the knowledge and Wiki know-how correct this? Thanks!! :) —Preceding unsigned comment added by 82.40.237.119 (talk) 14:40, 15 March 2009 (UTC)

Quite right. It's not you. It was rubbish! I've changed it and hope it is acceptable. I think we have established that there is no indigenous tradition of sour cream in the UK (or at least in England - there are certainly some cultured milk products in Scotland and Wales), and that the US tradition comes from Eastern European migrants, so "Anglophone" and "Western European" make no sense at all here.Sjwells53 (talk) 18:12, 15 March 2009 (UTC)

It is "Western European" in that sense that it is usual and found in France, Belgium, the Netherlands, and the Scandinavian countries, but it is not Eastern European, the Eastern Europaean sour cream is different, and it is called smetana.

Warrington (talk) 21:58, 15 March 2009 (UTC)

Requested move

The following discussion is an archived discussion of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on the talk page. No further edits should be made to this section.

The result of the move request was page moved.  Ronhjones  ^(Talk) 22:40, 23 December 2009 (UTC)

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Crème fraîche → Crème fraiche — Much more common spelling, and also accepted in French. --Alwetendheid alom (talk) 19:29, 15 December 2009 (UTC)

The above discussion is preserved as an archive of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on this talk page. No further edits should be made to this section.

I don't know the dominant use in English, but the dominant spelling in French is definitely crème fraîche, so I added it as a note to the article. The spelling crème fraiche is not incorrect since the circumflex was made optional on most instances of i and u by the orthographic reform of 1990 (see Reforms of French orthography#Accents) ; but as with many points of this reform, it has not been well accepted and is rarely found in spelling-proofed texts. (Actually, many people would probably still think fraiche a spelling mistake). Note also that crème has a rarer orthographic variant crême [1] - though I have not seen it that often. Bertrand Bellet (talk) 12:53, 14 February 2010 (UTC)

I haven’t ever seen the crême variant either. Reading the Dictionnaire de l’Académie française, it states that crème (like chrême) is derivated from cresme, so I do not know why it is written with an è. It does not even mention the spelling crême, only chrême, but that word has another meaning. However, I know that the spelling crême exists, but I suppose it is only a minor variant in English. My Concise Oxford English Dictionary recommends crème fraiche. The circumflex in fraiche, as many accents, has probably disappeared because accents are not used in normal English words and it does not give a pronunciation indication in fraiche. Spellings like debut and even reconnoitre are very common. I always apply the rectifications orthographiques, so I do spell crème fraiche in French, but I know it is still a less common spelling. Alwetendheid alom (talk) 11:09, 16 February 2010 (UTC)

South Park

Why does this article say that South Park made Crème fraîche 'famous'? It's not as if it's a particularly obscure ingredient, it's used all the time. Not that many people even watch South Park (compared to how many people use Crème fraîche I would imagine.) It's a completely ridiculous and needless statement. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 128.243.253.113 (talk) 17:36, 19 November 2010 (UTC)

Because: "We're gonna top it with a little crème fraîche... oh yeah... oh **** yeah." —Preceding unsigned comment added by 75.139.176.153 (talk) 23:01, 19 November 2010 (UTC)

I like "South Park" as much as anybody, but the inclusion of this is absolutely not warranted. Kar98 (talk) 20:08, 25 November 2010 (UTC)

Because South Park invented Crème fraîche. Come on people! Get it together! 214.13.212.132 (talk) 07:04, 4 February 2011 (UTC)

Weren't they making fun of how popular it is with chefs? And wouldn't that not be funny at all if nobody knew what it was?--75.80.43.80 (talk) 13:41, 7 May 2011 (UTC)

Circumflex

The article starts "Crème fraiche ... from French crème fraîche", with a grave accent consistently on the e, but a circumflex only in the French version, not in the semi-Anglicised version. This seems odd. Do some English keyboards have a way to type è but not î? My guess is that no-one cares - my local supermarket sells "full-fat crème fraiche" and "reduced-fat crème fraîche". Maproom (talk) 11:20, 9 August 2011 (UTC)

According to the New Oxford American Dictionary (as well as the Oxford Dictionary of English (British English)) it is written with an accent grave, but without a circumflex. Furthermore, English words with their origin in French tend to lose their circumflex (for instance 'hôtel' has become 'hotel'). Joffysloffy (talk) 13:39, 23 October 2014 (UTC)

British supermarkets seem to put crème fraîche on the product containers, while some leave out both accents on their webpages and others include both. I have not seen any examples of a single accent.[2][3][4][5][6]16:39, 23 November 2020 (UTC) — Preceding unsigned comment added by 2A00:23C6:1482:A100:B9D6:A584:2111:1352 (talk)