Talk:Dalit

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External links modified[edit]

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Weird reinstatement[edit]

@Jonathansammy: why have you reinstated information that is not in the source and is very poorly written? - Sitush (talk) 23:02, 11 September 2017 (UTC)

Multiple sources added to support the text. Thanks.Jonathansammy (talk) 23:07, 11 September 2017 (UTC)
No. You are using Kalpaz, seem to be synthesising, and you still can't punctuate properly. It is a pretty poor show. I've been trying to get a grip on this mess of an article and poor edits from experienced contributors do not make it any easier. What does a "leader" even mean? It pops up across numerous Indian politician/activist articles but rarely has any support because Dalits are not an organisation. - Sitush (talk) 23:17, 11 September 2017 (UTC)

Recent revert[edit]

I'm not well and so responses to this thread may be slow. However, I reverted here for a bunch of reasons. Right from the top is the issue of WP:LEAD and unnecessary use of tertiary sources (Britannica) - there is not need to cite that info at all in the lead, let alone using Britannica. Then we get a change of a quote from Brahmanic to Varna, which is simply incorrect because the OED does indeed use the word Brahmanic. The photo of a group of alleged Dalits comes from Commons and is dubious at best: it could be any group from anywhere, as far as I can work out. I could go on but it might be easier if the person who added/reinstated all the info explained each change here. - Sitush (talk) 00:41, 4 December 2017 (UTC)

@Sitush: Honestly, I don't see the point of your rollbacks. The only thing i did was adding photos, external links to Dalit associations, and references from Encyclopedia Britannica, which is a reliable source, to unsourced statements. Anyway, if you feel sick we can talk about this another day, i don't want to bother you. - GenoV84 (talk) 02:01, 4 December 2017 (UTC)
Dalit per OED online :(in the traditional Indian caste system) a member of the lowest caste. Hope you feel better soon.Thanks.Jonathansammy (talk) 02:32, 4 December 2017 (UTC)
The statements did not need sourcing, per WP:LEAD and WP:OVERCITE. I've explained the issue with one of the images, and singling-out Ambedkar is not a good idea (nor is using Babasaheb as his name). The professional OED online does indeed say what the quote says. - Sitush (talk) 09:56, 4 December 2017 (UTC)
GonoV84, a good LEAD summarises the body. No citations are needed except when something is contentious. If anything is contentious, please raise it here. And if citations are needed, use the ones already used in the body. Changes to LEAD require WP:CONSENSUS. I agree with Sitush that Britannica is not a good source. -- Kautilya3 (talk) 11:35, 4 December 2017 (UTC)

Recent change to the lead[edit]

I don't understand this edit. Per WP:LEAD, there should be no need for a citation at the point where it is inserted - the existence of Dalits is amply sourced in the body. Furthermore, regardless of what the point may actually be, we're not going to use ancient primary sources when we have modern secondary sources - see WP:RS. Finally, legal threats will get you nowhere fast on Wikipedia itself - see WP:NLT. - Sitush (talk) 10:59, 20 December 2017 (UTC)

Image[edit]

Why are we using File:Castes-India 2.jpg at the top of the article? It confuses things because we call Dalit etc varna in the lead (not caste) and because it implies a proportionality that isn't necessarily correct. I really do not see that it adds anything: if people do not understand words such as hierarchy, which we use to describe the situation, then they are not going to understand much that the article says anyway, regardless of the image. - Sitush (talk) 05:29, 24 December 2017 (UTC)

The image which mentions varnas rather than castes (jatis) does do a good job of showing where the Dalits are placed in the traditional Indian society. In other words, it clarifies rather than confuses. Dalit is just the modern name that the people belonging to Panchama varna have given to themselves. -Mohanbhan (talk) 07:21, 24 December 2017 (UTC)
They're at the bottom. The article says that and if people don't know where the bottom is in a hierarchy then I give up all hope. You haven't addressed my point regarding proportionality. - Sitush (talk) 09:02, 24 December 2017 (UTC)
The image is undue and doesn't help understanding the article, an image of a Dalit community would be better. Capitals00 (talk) 11:05, 24 December 2017 (UTC)
There is no one "Dalit community" as such; there are many formerly untouchable communities which identify themselves as "Dalit". It is a political, not an ethnographic, category. People do understand what the bottom is but as they say, a picture is worth a thousand words. -Mohanbhan (talk) 12:05, 24 December 2017 (UTC)
I agree that the image is misleading. As Mohanbhan correctly points out, Dalit is a political category and the image misleadingly places it in the caste hierarchy. A reader would think that this is the caste structure of Hinduism and that's not the case. We're mixing apples and oranges in the image that's not just a bad idea but it is also WP:OR. --regentspark (comment) 15:35, 24 December 2017 (UTC)
@regentspark Why are you misleading by calling the varna hierarchy a "caste" hierarchy? As I have clearly mentioned above Dalit is just a new name for the Panchama varna, which is also not a caste but a collection of castes forming a varna. Please get to know what the varna hierarchy is before worrying what readers would think. Your comment is a clear case of WP:LAWYERING -Mohanbhan (talk) 02:25, 25 December 2017 (UTC)

External links modified[edit]

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Dalit are part of Shudras[edit]

Dalit are part of Shudras don't mention it as separate from 4 varna (based on their work) ...veda says all people are divided into 4 based on their work

even if you take doctors . if they work in hospital then they are Shudras ...same doctor if he is head of the hospital as part of businesses then he is Vaishya . there are only 4 varns .. depending on the what role they take during the work for living then are called in that varna .

if people don't work few days .. then they should not called out of verna.. for living they will take a role and live ... based on the role they have to be clarified .

Panchama means 5th . so the sentence "also known by the name of Panchama" is not complete . — Preceding unsigned comment added by 198.175.68.37 (talk) 12:20, 2 April 2018 (UTC)

Not done. Sorry, we report what the reliable sources say. -- Kautilya3 (talk) 14:09, 2 April 2018 (UTC)

Recent revert[edit]

I think there may be something useful in this reverted material but as it stood it seemed prima facie to misrepresent the source and I rather think that, like me, the contributor may have been working off the linked journal abstract rather than a full copy of the journal. It definitely needs to be reworded and it needs to be checked against other reliable secondary sources because this is the first time I've ever seen one refer to dalituthan etc rather than dalit. - Sitush (talk) 08:47, 4 April 2018 (UTC)