Talk:Dan Feyer

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	This article was accepted from this draft on 25 July 2021 by reviewer DoubleGrazing (talk · contribs).

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Copied from Teahouse

I wrote a draft for https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Draft:Dan_Feyer

Seems to me this person is notable, in that they are the 8-time American crossword champion. Various other equally-notable figures in the crossword-world have their own wikipedia pages, see highlighted individuals in https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/American_Crossword_Puzzle_Tournament

It was sent back to draftspace with message:

> This submission's references do not show that the subject qualifies for a Wikipedia article—that is, they do not show significant coverage (not just passing mentions) about the subject in published, reliable, secondary sources that are independent of the subject (see the guidelines on the notability of people).

To me it seems that winning the top competition in a relatively popular activity 8 times is notable on its own, hence I wrote the article. The subject has an individual profile in the New York Times and their competition wins get coverage in the NYT repeatedly, which again seems impressive to me. But I don't have strong feelings about this, if it's collectively felt that the subject doesn't meet notability criteria, fine by me. I'm just a little unclear if I did something wrong in how I drafted or presented the article -- for example, I did not include the references "in order of relevance", perhaps that was wrong.

Anyway, any advice or guidance much appreciated. Davidoaye (talk) 18:02, 1 January 2021 (UTC)[reply]

(pinging Robert McClenon) —[AlanM1 (talk)]— 19:53, 1 January 2021 (UTC)[reply]

User:Davidoaye - First, you didn't do anything wrong. Second, I welcome the comments of other experienced editors here. If other editors think that he is notable, or that he is probably notable, I will accept the article. But I would like their comments. Robert McClenon (talk) 21:45, 1 January 2021 (UTC)[reply]

Sure! And thanks for the feedback. A question: I was planning for this to be the first of several pages on various people in the crossword world, but if Feyer isn't notable (or is at best boderline-notable) certainly none of the others I wanted to cover would be. I realise this is surely wading into a long discussion among experienced editors but... I guess I'd love to know whether one component here is about how notable crosswords themselves are considered to be? I basically thought anyone who won the biggest crossword championship even once would count as notable, but if that's not the case (absent other factors / notability in the media / etc) I won't even try to write those other pages! Davidoaye (talk) 23:09, 1 January 2021 (UTC)[reply]

I suppose a question could be put - is every past winner of American Crossword Puzzle Tournament article-worthy? Or are other activities needed to establish notability? David notMD (talk) 21:45, 2 January 2021 (UTC)[reply]

Yes. That is the basic question, which appears to be implicit in User:Davidoaye's comment and explicit in User:David notMD's question. Should there be an implied special notability criterion? Is crossword-solving a mental sport like chess and checkers and Go? We have special notability criteria for a lot of obscure physical sports, so why not for a lot of obscure mental sports? Robert McClenon (talk) 07:45, 3 January 2021 (UTC)[reply]

Absolutely! I want to clarify that I think there's a "special case" for Feyer in that he's the 8-time champion (most championships ever), has had a full-page NYT profile devoted solely to him, etc. Whether winning ACPT *once* is enough on its own, though, I don't think I'm Wikipedia-experienced enough to say -- personally I'd be happy if the answer were yes, and if some special notability criteria could be set for the sport, but I'm absolutely biased by my affinity for the obscure sport here! Davidoaye (talk) 09:34, 3 January 2021 (UTC)[reply]

oh, p.s. : I modeled my page on this one about another top crossword solver (instantiated ten years ago), which uses the layout/approach for a sports player -- I'm afraid I'm not experienced enough to figure out where to look, but is it possible that there's relevant discussion from that page as well? https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tyler_Hinman Davidoaye (talk) 09:42, 3 January 2021 (UTC)[reply]

Hi all -- I'm wondering if I should keep working on this article or not? Have included profiles which are at least 1/3rd about Feyer from NYT, 538 and Time, so I personally believe this page merits inclusion even besides any special notability criterion for crossword solving as a sport, though I'd love to get a determination on that front as well.Davidoaye (talk) 15:10, 15 January 2021 (UTC)[reply]