Talk:Disappeared (Northern Ireland)

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Lisa Dorrian[edit]

She is listed by the Dissapeared group, so why not here? Fergananim (talk) 16:04, 23 April 2014 (UTC)[reply]

She's not really talked about in the same way as the other 'Disappeared' (not listed by the BBC, for example), I think perhaps because she was taken by loyalists and not the republicans. Perhaps we can add her to the table and add a new column as to who the suspects are (loyalist/republican? Source = Guardian. GiantSnowman 17:29, 23 April 2014 (UTC)[reply]
The relatives of the Dissapeared group list her along with all the others mentioned in this article. She should be added, regardless of who 'disappeared' her. Fergananim (talk) 22:16, 23 April 2014 (UTC)[reply]
Yes but we havr to considert hat her place among the Disappeared is not really covered by (m)any WP:RS... GiantSnowman 10:10, 24 April 2014 (UTC)[reply]
So exactly what criteria needs to be fulfilled for inclusion? Fergananim (talk) 17:28, 24 April 2014 (UTC)[reply]
Well there isn't one. If you can find a second source that list as her one of the 'Disappeared' then let me know and we can add her. GiantSnowman 17:39, 24 April 2014 (UTC)[reply]
 Done GiantSnowman 12:16, 25 April 2014 (UTC)[reply]
Great. (talk) 10:42, 29 April 2014 (UTC)[reply]

Patrick Duffy and Caroline Moreland[edit]

I've added Patrick Duffy (murder victim) to the See Also section, given the circumstances of his death and dissapearance. There may be more like him to add in this section. Fergananim (talk) 10:42, 29 April 2014 (UTC)[reply]

I'm not sure either Duffy or Moreland are independently notable - if you can locate some RS we should merge with this article. If they were considered among 'Disappeared' at one point then we should note them here, and with more than a 'see also'. GiantSnowman 11:59, 29 April 2014 (UTC)[reply]
I don't advocate adding them to the Disappeared, just to the 'See Also' categegory, given the circumstances concerned. However I will try and get more information on them, time permitting! Cheers, Fergananim (talk) 15:13, 7 May 2014 (UTC)[reply]

John McIlroy and Seamus Wright from Andersonstown, Belfast (note different to the OTHER Seamus Wright[edit]

Eco-climber (talk) 14:29, 1 October 2014 (UTC)[reply]

Why don't we list these two as they are listed here:

2018-07-19 Am I being dumb or are you all missing something. These 2 unfortunate people are still disappeared ( almost certainly dead ) and we have not included them in the list, despite a UK Parliament reference, CAIN reference and Amnesty reference. Yes they have been excluded from some organisations list(s) but they are included in others. And confusingly get added or deleted from other lists without a publicly specified reason. I propose that we change the name of the Main List to "The Disappeared" and then add these 2 people to a the list "Disappearances since 1999", but change the name to "other Disappearances" 

Eco-climber (talk) 18:23, 19 July 2018 (UTC)[reply]

Sean Murphy: Why don't we list Sean as he is listed on various sources[edit]

--Eco-climber (talk) 13:50, 1 October 2014 (UTC) Why don't we list Sean as he is listed here:[reply]

Draft entry could be:- |Sean Murphy|| ||25||1986||||Republicans|| [1]

References

  1. ^ http://www.amnesty.org.uk/blogs/belfast-and-beyond/day-disappeared Amesty International- Day of the Disappeared

This unfortunate person is still disappeared ( almost certainly dead ) and we have not included them in the list, despite UK Guardian + CAIN reference and Amnesty reference. Yes they have been excluded from some organisations list(s) but they are included in others. And confusingly get added or deleted from other lists without a publicly specified reason. I propose that we change the name of the Main List to "The Disappeared" and then add these 2 people to a the list "Disappearances since 1999", but change the name to "other Disappearances"Eco-climber (talk) 18:27, 19 July 2018 (UTC)[reply]

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Delete[edit]

Two people, Gareth O'Connor and Lisa Doran are not two of the disappeared. They should be removed. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 194.67.211.160 (talk • contribs) 18:33, 24 May 2018 (UTC)[reply]

Numerous reliable sources clearly include them. GiantSnowman 18:33, 24 May 2018 (UTC)[reply]
Well why don't you provide them then?194.67.211.160 (talk) 18:35, 24 May 2018 (UTC)[reply]
There already are, and see also numerous previous discussions on this talk page...but seeing as you're lazy, here's Lisa Dorrian, here's Gareth O'Connor. GiantSnowman 18:42, 24 May 2018 (UTC)[reply]
Do you really not understand the difference between a verb "disappeared" and a phrase, "The Disappeared"?194.67.211.160 (talk) 18:53, 24 May 2018 (UTC)[reply]

The sources that that Lisa Doran is not one of the disappeared. The funny thing about all of this is the start a of the article explicitly states the disappeared were all taken during the troubles.194.67.193.213 (talk) 18:26, 27 May 2018 (UTC)[reply]

WP:VERIFIABILITYNOTTRUTH. Sources describe them as being part of the Disappeared, and so do we. There is consensus in earlier discussions for their conclusion. GiantSnowman 11:03, 28 May 2018 (UTC)[reply]

Lisa Dorrian doesn't fall within the remit of the article's scope as made clear in its opening line: The Disappeared is a term which refers to people believed to have been abducted, murdered and secretly buried during the Troubles in Northern Ireland.[1]. The Troubles are typically defined as being from 1968 to 1998. Lisa's disappearance is in a different century to the Troubles. Support her removal. Also [1] is a 404 not found link. The only prior discussion on Lisa in this discussion is between yourself Giantsnowman and Fergananim, both ignoring the articles stated scope. On the sources used [2] doesn't cut the grass as it only has opinions from certain calling her a disappeared, they are not academic statements. [3] This doesn't cut it either as it is referring to the then recent talk of the Disappeared and then makes mention about the disappearance of Lisa. It does not call her one of the Disappeared that is frequently discussed. CAIN [4] is a more trustworthy source however clearly lists her as "Uncertain if conflict-related" which means she falls out of the Troubles-related scope in that regard. Lisa doesn't belong in this article as it is just like paramilitaries killed by other paramilitaries after the Troubles don't belong on a list of Troubles era murders. Mabuska (talk) 21:27, 28 May 2018 (UTC)[reply]

Indeed [5] this link from CAIN clearly states what the official definition of the Disappeared is and for those including Lisa who are outside of that group, they are listed as "disappearances" not as Disappeared. There is a clear distinction in what the term "Disappeared" means and the word "disappeared". This article is on about the "Disappeared". Mabuska (talk) 21:32, 28 May 2018 (UTC)[reply]
You will I assume disagree, however the issue should be discussed by a larger number of editors than just you and Fergananim, you and the blocked IP, and you and me. Suggest we take it to the WikiProject or a RfC or both. Mabuska (talk) 21:37, 28 May 2018 (UTC)[reply]
I have no strong views either way. I'm not an expert by any means - I simply started/expanded this article because I found the subject interesting. There is currently no consensus to remove these two, so they should not be until there is. I agree wider input is needed. GiantSnowman 07:29, 29 May 2018 (UTC)[reply]

There is no consensus either for them to remain especially as one is clearly outside of the articles scope and remit which gives the remove argument far more credence than the keep. Mabuska (talk) 20:47, 29 May 2018 (UTC)[reply]

Err gosh, that is not even nearly how consensus works - see WP:STABLE. They have been in the article for so long that there is consensus for their inclusion. GiantSnowman 08:02, 30 May 2018 (UTC)[reply]
Consensus can change and there is none now Mabuska (talk) 20:35, 30 May 2018 (UTC)[reply]
Yes consensus can change, but it does not expire, there is no lifespan to it... GiantSnowman 20:36, 30 May 2018 (UTC)[reply]
Whilst we could argue Wiki policy or whatever, I will note you have failed to once provide an actual counter to the points I made. You will need to in a RfC or whatever. Trying to argue time passed is not enough. Mabuska (talk) 23:57, 30 May 2018 (UTC)[reply]
But it literally is - see WP:STABLE. There is a version of this article, with Dorrian and O'Connor included, which has been accepted by the community. It is up to you to get consensus to remove them. GiantSnowman 08:26, 31 May 2018 (UTC)[reply]

Still no answers to the points I raised. Mabuska (talk) 11:21, 31 May 2018 (UTC)[reply]

The answer is that you have failed to persuade anyone of your argument or to achieve a consensus. Move on.Hibarnacle (talk) 17:54, 14 June 2018 (UTC)[reply]

Input requested[edit]

A request for further input has been made at the Ireland WikiProject. To re-iterate the key points on why Lisa Dorrian does not belong in the article:

  • The article in the first line states The Disappeared is a term which refers to people believed to have been abducted, murdered and secretly buried during the Troubles in Northern Ireland.[1] Lisa disappeared in a different century and outside the Troubles.
  • It is unsure if her disappearance is even Troubles related [6].
  • The article is about the "Disappeared" as the source attached to the end of the first sentence makes clear as in not everyone who was "disappeared".

Thus Lisa does not meet the requirements for inclusion in this article. The sources listed below are not part of this statement. Mabuska (talk) 11:41, 31 May 2018 (UTC)[reply]

See #Lisa Dorrian section, and sources/comments by @Fergananim:, above. GiantSnowman 11:53, 31 May 2018 (UTC)[reply]
The sources used in that 'discussion' have been dealt with in the preceding section to this one. The first source is a dead link and the rest do not classify her specifically as one of the "Disappeared" so are invalid. Please provide your own actual argument with sources that clearly identify her as one of the Disappeared and of meeting the criteria set out by the introduction to this article. Please stop time wasting with side-stepping the questions put to you. Mabuska (talk) 15:03, 31 May 2018 (UTC)[reply]
You do not set the terms of how others may respond to you. Your request has been dealt with and discussed at length in the above section where you failed to convince anyone of your argument. Concensus stands with the status quo.Hibarnacle (talk) 18:08, 14 June 2018 (UTC)[reply]
It seems to me that there are two lists of "disappeared". One is the list compiled by the Independent Commission for the Location of Victims' Remains. This was set up in 1999 and so disappearances in or after 2000 would be outside its remit. The other is the list at thedisappearedni.co.uk, which is a dead link but is archived here (this is in fact the ref for the first sentence of the article: the ref named "about"). The second list includes Gareth O'Connor and Lisa Dorrian. Both are listed at CAIN as "disappeared", and CAIN doesn't list anybody else as "disappeared". I don't see how the article is improved by removing them. I certainly don't accept that The Troubles ended in 1998. The IRA didn't end its armed campaign until July 2005, after the disappearance of Lisa Dorrian.
I suggest (1) that the Lisa Dorrian content be re-instated, but at the end of the 2000s section, and (2) that the Gareth O'Connor content be moved from the Background section to the 2000s section, and the refs in that untangled, because there are Lisa Dorrian refs in there at the moment. This would then read:
In September 2015 the bodies of Seamus Wright and Kevin McKee were found in a bog in Coghalstown, County Meath, Republic of Ireland.[1]
In May 2017 a body was found in a forest in northern France identified as that of Seamus Ruddy.[2]
There were two further disappearances in the 2000s. Gareth O'Connor, believed to have been a member of the Real IRA, disappeared while driving from Armagh to Dundalk in 2003. His body was discovered in Newry in 2005.[3][4] In March 2005, Lisa Dorrian disappeared after attending a party at a caravan park in Ballyhalbert. She is believed to have been taken by loyalists.[3][5]Cite error: A <ref> tag is missing the closing </ref> (see the help page).

References

  1. ^ Wright and McKee bodies located, bbc.co.uk; accessed 10 September 2015.
  2. ^ "Seamus Ruddy: Human remains found in search of French forest". belfasttelegraph.co.uk. Retrieved 10 May 2017.
  3. ^ a b Draft List of Deaths Related to the Conflict from 2002, cain.ulst.ac.uk; accessed 7 September 2015.
  4. ^ "Gareth O'Connor". The Disappeared of Northern Ireland. Archived from the original on 22 November 2013. Retrieved 3 May 2014.
  5. ^ "Lisa Dorrian". The Disappeared of Northern Ireland. Archived from the original on 22 November 2013. Retrieved 3 May 2014. {{cite web}}: Unknown parameter |deadurl= ignored (|url-status= suggested) (help)
As regards the table, there is a choice between having all eighteen in the table (which I would favour) and having a separate table for post-2000 disappearances. Scolaire (talk) 17:52, 1 June 2018 (UTC)[reply]
Interesting. An idea I was thinking about over the weekend is to restrict the article to what it is about, the "Disappeared" and then add in a related section at the end on the other "disappearances". Either way the lede needs rewritten to match the content as the Troubles ended in 1998. When the IRA decommissioned or whatever did not play a factor in that. Mabuska (talk) 09:43, 4 June 2018 (UTC)[reply]
That isn't radically different from what I proposed, so I'm going ahead with my proposed edit (it affects the "Background" as well as the "History" section), and others may edit it further or discuss it further. I don't believe it needs a separate section for a short paragraph of 60 words. I'm still open to splitting the table, but I won't do that until there is a clear consensus for it. More than the lead needs rewritten: only six of the 16 are covered in the article proper.
As to a date for the end of the Troubles, you might be interested in this discussion from 2008. In general, "nationalist" editors argued for a Good Friday 1998 cutoff and "unionist" editors believed it should extend to 2005 or even 2007. CAIN says, "It may prove as difficult to agree on a date for the end of 'the Troubles' as it is to agree on the date of the beginning...", and suggests numerous dates between 1997 (the second cease-fire) and 2007 (the re-establishment of devolved government). In the end, on Wikipedia, a single source was found for 1998 (Aughey) and that became the date in the article. But if CAIN lists the 2000s disappearances on the "Disappeared" page, then they must be considered as Troubles-related. Scolaire (talk) 18:03, 4 June 2018 (UTC)[reply]
These changes look good, many thanks. GiantSnowman 18:18, 4 June 2018 (UTC)[reply]
Thank you Scolaire for at least taking the time to provide actual arguments and potential remedies. I'd still argue that the Troubles ended in 1998 and most people would argue that as well. But if CAIN lists the 2000s disappearances on the "Disappeared" page, then they must be considered as Troubles-related. - not exactly: the start of the page makes it clear that: The following table contains DRAFT information on those people who were abducted and killed, mainly by the Irish Republican Army (IRA), in Northern Ireland between 1972 and 1986, and their bodies secretly buried. They are referred to as 'the Disappeared'. and later on in regards to the post-Troubles disappearances The following tables contain other related information on disappearances where the body was recovered prior to the setting up of the ICLVR, and also information on two disappearnces in the mid-2000s. In regards to those 2 disappearances: Recent cases of disappearance that may be paramilitary related. None of this states that they are or may be Troubles related, just possible paramilitary related. Mabuska (talk) 13:39, 8 June 2018 (UTC)[reply]
@GiantSnowman: @Scolaire: - so according to the Disappeared of NI site, the site used to provide the very first reference in the article, there are 17 instances. The table contains 18. Looking at both [7] and [8] Lisa is not included in either list. Mabuska (talk) 14:59, 9 June 2018 (UTC)[reply]

Edit made to table as she is not one of the "Disappeared" according to the official site. Disagree Snowman then rename table or find some proof for her inclusion. Mabuska (talk) 10:48, 12 June 2018 (UTC)[reply]

The whole thing is very unsatisfactory. The ILCVR site has only 16 names, i.e. the 16 that disappeared before 1999. The archived thedisappearedni page had 18 names, including Gareth O'Connor and Lisa Dorrian, but said in the opening sentence there were 17. The current thedisappearedni site says 17 cases and has 17 names, including Gareth O'Connor but not Lisa Dorrian, and doesn't offer any explanation for the changes. The CAIN "Disappeared" page has 16 names in one table, and O'Connor and Dorrian in another. You can't pick one site and call it the "official site". At any rate, both O'Connor and Dorrian are well referenced, and as I said at the start, I can't see how the article is improved by removing pertinent and referenced information. I've split it into two tables as I suggested above. Please do not delete content again without a consensus to do so. Scolaire (talk) 12:26, 12 June 2018 (UTC)[reply]
The edit was made to get GiantSnowman to contribute as they seem content to not provide any actual arguments and rather let other editors, i.e. you, do it for them. The tactic obviously failed as you are still the only one contributing with ideas. On concensus, there was none for your edits but no-one is complaining ;-) Whilst splitting the table in two is helpful, having it as a sub-section of "The Disappeared" makes it look like they are considered part of the "Disappeared". A different title, such as "Other disappearances" with a line or so explaining it should suffice. Mabuska (talk) 13:32, 15 June 2018 (UTC)[reply]
The only person who seems to have issue with the edits/the page as it stands is you... GiantSnowman 13:35, 15 June 2018 (UTC)[reply]
Agreed. GiantSnowman sent me "thanks" for my edits to both the article and the talk page. I presume he thought I had said all that needed to be said and he didn't need to add anything. It's not particularly civil to demand that someone contributes to a discussion, especially when you have made a point of provoking that person, e.g. Disagree Snowman then rename table or find some proof for her inclusion. It's not particularly civil, either, to completely ignore what I say on the grounds that I'm not the person you wanted to reply.
Now, the simple fact is that there is no consensus to change the article the way you want it changed. You went to WT:IE to get more input, and you got me. Nobody came to support your argument, and you're going to have to live with that. The only person to voice a similar view was an IP who is now blocked for socking using a proxy. I can't imagine who that might be, if it's not one or other of the sockmasters that were the bane of your life as well as mine. The article content as it is is policy-compliant, it is informative and it has been thoroughly discussed. We get that you disagree with it, but it's time to drop the stick and back slowly away from the horse carcass. Okay? Scolaire (talk) 16:00, 15 June 2018 (UTC)[reply]
Spot on. GiantSnowman 16:04, 15 June 2018 (UTC)[reply]

Scolaire you don't have any right to demand what I or anyone should do. Just because one additional editor (you) decided to participate and agree with the highly flawed information does not mean that it must be correct and we must ignore the problem. Wikipedia as you know is not a democracy. Possible solutions have been suggested and you've ignored them. The article content is not policy-compliant. Lisa Dorrian isn't listed on the Disappeared families own website as one of the Disappeared. CAIN do not list her as one of the "Disappeared". There is a huge difference between "Disappeared" and "disappeared", and I have provided a simple solution to the problem that ensures her inclusion in the article. Obviously asking WP-Ireland for input was pointless and a proper RfC would have been a better idea, and so I will go that route. Indeed I am well within right to be WP:BOLD with my forthcoming edit to the article seeing as nothing and no-one is being removed but simply a contextual amendment to fix the problem. Mabuska (talk) 11:36, 21 June 2018 (UTC)[reply]

If you have a problem with "Disappearances since" we could just state "People disappeared" as oppossed to "Disappeared", which implies inclusion on a list that they aren't even on by several leading accounts. Mabuska (talk) 11:40, 21 June 2018 (UTC)[reply]

Charlie's age[edit]

What is the correct age for Charlie? The rte source says age 54 [1] the Guardian says 55[2] but the article says 57.

References

  1. ^ "RTÉ Special report". RTÉ News. Retrieved 3 March 2015.
  2. ^ Rosie Cowan (3 June 2002). "Looking for Charlie". The Guardian.

Mobile mundo (talk) 21:45, 15 June 2018 (UTC)[reply]

Good question. The ILCVR site and the families' site both say 54. CAIN says 55. I'm inclined to trust his own people and the people who are searching for him over people who are at one remove. The discrepancy is very likely due to his birthday falling later in the year than his death, so that just subtracting years you would get 55, but if he hadn't passed his birthday he would have still been 54. In any case, the 57 in the article should be replaced. Scolaire (talk) 22:40, 15 June 2018 (UTC)[reply]

Facts on the ICLVR page are now very out of date + thoughts on Gareth O'Connor and Lisa Dorrian being included in The Disappeared page[edit]

Hello All. I have been assisting with this Disappeared wiki page for several years ( 4 or 5 I think). I strongly side with Gareth O'Connor and Lisa Dorrian being included in The Disappeared page. Yes maybe in a later section called "2000s" but the troubles still carried on after 1998, in a lesser form until 2007. We should not take Republic v Loyalist sides on the date. And therefore a 2000's section is an excellent compromise. The 2 people discussed are both also listed as disappeared and this has been on many external sites. Although very confusingly some of the same sites add or delete these names without any reference as to why.

I also write about the facts on the ICLVR page are now very out of date.

[1] Independent Commission for the Location of Victims' Remains

eg, in the Victims section it lists 6 bodies as being undiscovered, when in fact only 3 bodies are remaining undiscovered as of Sept 2017. If someone has the time, can they update the facts please?

cheers

Eco-climber (talk) —Preceding undated comment added 18:04, 19 July 2018 (UTC)[reply]

References

  1. ^ https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Talk:Independent_Commission_for_the_Location_of_Victims%27_Remains
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