Talk:Eastern Ukraine campaign/Archive1

The move from Eastern Ukraine offensive to Eastern Ukraine campaign

@Applodion renamed the article[1] with the edit summary not just a single offensive - instead it is a campaign consisting of several battles and offensives.

According to my English dictionary, an offensive is “an attacking military campaign.” That is, both terms mean “a series of military operations, to achieve an abjective, in an area,” but offensive is more specific, as to the type of operations. If we accept these definitions, then the move rationale above is not valid, and I agree.

Although the Russian eastern offensive is seeing setbacks, its objective still remains to attack and invade more of Ukraine.

I’m moving the article back. Please file a formal WP:RM if you still think it’s appropriate.  —Michael Z. 19:18, 6 October 2022 (UTC)

Requested move 13 October 2022

The following is a closed discussion of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on the talk page. Editors desiring to contest the closing decision should consider a move review after discussing it on the closer's talk page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

The result of the move request was: moved. (non-admin closure) ■ ∃ Madeline ⇔ ∃ Part of me ; 21:39, 30 October 2022 (UTC)

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Eastern Ukraine offensive → Eastern Ukraine campaign – As opposed to a singular offensive, this article now describes multiple offensive and defensive operations by both sides. The Southern and Northeastern offensives have been similarly renamed to campaigns to give proper weight and a more relevant title to their respective theatres of operations. In light of the Ukrainian Balaklia-Kupiansk-Izium-Lyman offensive, to refer to this theatre as a singular is now even more inappropriate FiveStars1234 (talk) 23:23, 13 October 2022 (UTC) — Relisting. – robertsky (talk) 01:35, 21 October 2022 (UTC)

Note: WikiProject Current events has been notified of this discussion. – robertsky (talk) 15:00, 28 October 2022 (UTC)

Note: WikiProject Ukraine has been notified of this discussion. – robertsky (talk) 15:00, 28 October 2022 (UTC)

Note: WikiProject Russia has been notified of this discussion. – robertsky (talk) 15:00, 28 October 2022 (UTC)

Note: WikiProject International relations has been notified of this discussion. – robertsky (talk) 15:01, 28 October 2022 (UTC)

• Support —Michael Z. 15:26, 28 October 2022 (UTC)

• Support per nominator, the scope of the article has changed and its title needs to be updated to reflect that change. ––FormalDude (talk) 21:01, 29 October 2022 (UTC)
• Support Applodion (talk) 12:38, 30 October 2022 (UTC)

The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

Proposal

I think that there should be an article for the Southeastern theater (area around Vuhledar, Pavlivka, Tokmak, Mariupol, Berdiansk, Volnovakha, Orikhiv, Huliapole, etc), because, not only are the battles and skirmishes on that region notable enough to get its own article, they also dont really fit on either the eastern or southern campaigns (more of a mix of both), so what i suggest: making an "Southeastern Ukraine campaign" article for the stuff that happened on that region.SnoopyBird (talk) 19:59, 6 December 2022 (UTC)

My understanding is that Mariupol is the dividing line between the Russian southern direction (Southern Military District, attacking from Crimea) and southeastern direction (DLNR 1st and 2nd Army Corps, from the Donbas, later reinforced by the Eastern Military District), no? The former is now organizing a defence after the retreat from the right bank of the Dnipro, while the latter is concentrating on Bakhmut as the focus of the Battle of the Donbas (2022).  —Michael Z. 20:41, 6 December 2022 (UTC)

Please remove

"Outside of the Donbas, there are ongoing battles in the cities of Kreminna and Svatove."--That info was true (roughly) half year ago. No longer true. Please remove. 2001:2020:30B:FDCE:699D:7A98:21A0:7C95 (talk) 22:10, 1 February 2023 (UTC)

A Commons file used on this page or its Wikidata item has been nominated for deletion

The following Wikimedia Commons file used on this page or its Wikidata item has been nominated for deletion:

• Izum Russian POW and Ukrainian soldiers.jpg

Participate in the deletion discussion at the nomination page. —Community Tech bot (talk) 03:53, 14 March 2023 (UTC)

Extended-confirmed-protected edit request on 27 March 2023

| territory = | combatant1 = Russia

• Donetsk People's Republic
• Luhansk People's Republic

Oppose. MOS:WORDPRECEDENCE says to use flags only when appropriate, like to represent a country or nationality (the Russian-controlled “DLNR” are neither). MOS:INFOBOXFLAG discourages adding flags to infoboxes. Representing these Russian-controlled former deniable insurgent groups, now Russian military occupation administrations in Ukraine, with flags is not WP:NPOV, because it elevates their status to equivalent of sovereign states. —Michael Z. 17:06, 27 March 2023 (UTC)

A Commons file used on this page or its Wikidata item has been nominated for speedy deletion

The following Wikimedia Commons file used on this page or its Wikidata item has been nominated for speedy deletion:

• Flag of the DShRG Rusich (variant).svg

You can see the reason for deletion at the file description page linked above. —Community Tech bot (talk) 14:24, 1 June 2023 (UTC)

Extended-confirmed-protected edit request to add Redut PMC to Order of Battle

 Not done for now: please establish a consensus for this alteration before using the {{Edit semi-protected}} template. It seems there is plenty of community discussion happening, so I am setting the answered flag to yes while debate continues. If consensus emerges but there are no editors who can make the edit, feel free to reopen the request. Xan747 (talk) 15:23, 18 July 2023 (UTC)

@Xan747 Why are you denying all requests when they clearly differ? It is an established fact that the Redut (PMC) exists and that it is involved in battles in the Russian invasion of Ukraine. Redut PMC is listed in numerous battles and dozens of Wiki sites. Where I can find this "community discussion"?

https://www.understandingwar.org/backgrounder/russian-offensive-campaign-assessment-april-26-2023 Zerbrxsler (talk) 11:20, 19 July 2023 (UTC)

@Zerbrxsler, for the record, I did fill the same request for you at Battle of Bakhmut, and it has not been reverted. But perhaps I should not have done so. The argument being made is that Redut's role is not significant enough relative to Wagner's to warrant inclusion in the infobox. Yes, we can find mention of them in multiple sources, so it's not a question of whether they exist or not--clearly they do. The other argument is that if we're to include them in the infobox, we should actually put content about their actions in the body of the article to give necessary context for why they've been highlighted in the infobox. The overarching concern here is that infoboxes are especially not indiscriminate dumping grounds for any piece of trivia we can find passing mentions of in a news article somewhere.

So in sum, your edit request really doesn't go far enough. You should also write--I would say at least a paragraph--of article content describing their actions, backed by multiple reliable sources. And obviously that content will vary depending on which article you wish to edit. Then it's appropriate to make individual edit requests in each article, and no need to worry about creating a centralized discussion about it--though if you were to create one, I'd suggest the main invasion article as the place to do it. Xan747 (talk) 17:44, 19 July 2023 (UTC)

@Zerbrxsler, PS: feel free to ping me when you create the new edit requests to make sure I see them. Xan747 (talk) 17:48, 19 July 2023 (UTC)

 Note: The same request has been made at Battle of the Svatove and Battle of Avdiivka (2022–present). In an effort to reduce duplicate effort, I will refer those requests here since this is the one getting discussion. If consensus emerges here to do this edit, it might reasonable to do them elsewhere. Xan747 (talk) 15:43, 18 July 2023 (UTC)

Please add the private military company Redut (company) to the order of battle of the campaign, below or above the Wagner Group entry. Sources for involvement in Eastern Ukraine Campaign battles: Battle of Kharkiv, the Battle of the Siverskyi Donets and the Battle of Balakliia. As of mid-July 2022, two detachments of Redut, each counting 200 fighters, were operating in the Donbas region of Ukraine, both led by former Wagner Group commanders. Per ISW, the Redut formation "Veterany" is operating in the Battle of Bakhmut on the flanks of the city. The intelligence firm Grey Dynamics reported that Veterany also conducted offensive operations around Avdiivka, Vuhledar, and around Novoselivske in the Battle of the Svatove–Kreminna line. Zerbrxsler (talk) 11:43, 17 July 2023 (UTC)

My understanding is that apart from Wagner, the other PMCs are under command of and subordinate to the Russian Armed Forces. Is there a point in singling them out in the infobox if they are not prominent in the campaign nor in the article text?  —Michael Z. 19:05, 17 July 2023 (UTC)

@Mzajac They are prominent in the campaign. Redut is a private military company that is in contract with the MoD, estimated 7000 fighters. They are engaging, committing war crimes, and they are part of this Order of Battle. Please add the Redut PMC to it.

Also, before the rebellion it was also argued that Wagner has strong ties to the MoD - and now big parts including their equipment are taken over by the MoD, so you can't be sure of their status even. Zerbrxsler (talk) 14:03, 18 July 2023 (UTC)

References