Talk:Edward Hungerford (died 1648)

Dab extention

copied from: User talk:Motmit:

I have moved "Edward Hungerford (Parliamentarian)" back to "Edward Hungerford (roundhead)" because both men described as Edward Hungerford can also be described as Parliamentarians (meaning member of parliament). As the man described in this article was a parliamentary military officer, roundhead is a more precise disambiguation. -- PBS (talk) 11:37, 24 March 2012 (UTC)

Clearly every MP could be called a parliamentarian. We are using "Parliamentarian" (capitalised) as opposed to "Royalist" to described the two opposing sides in the civil war. This is the way they are properly designated. "roundhead" is a nasty slang term and has disgusting connotations.Motmit (talk) 17:58, 24 March 2012 (UTC)

Also see your earlier comment on by-pass redirect - why have you foisted this horrible term on the adequately described and differentiated names in the lists of MPs. Motmit (talk) 18:06, 24 March 2012 (UTC)

I do not keep you talk page on my watch list (so you need to post to my talk page if you wish to have a timely reply. Why is Roundhead a nasty slang term with disgusting connotations? Any more than Cavalier Whig or Tory? -- PBS (talk) 00:49, 27 March 2012 (UTC)

From the Oxford English Dictionary: Roundhead 1a "Brit. Hist. Usu. with capital initial. A member or adherent of the Parliamentary party during the English Civil War; = parliamentarian n. 2. Freq. contrasted with cavalier n. 3." -- PBS (talk) 01:04, 27 March 2012 (UTC)

Copied from talk:PBS

Edward Hungerford (roundhead)

It's certainly better, but to me it looks very odd, as surely in the Civil War sense a capital R is always used? I suspect more of these are coming and just wanted to say I prefer the pattern of Edmund Dunch (Roundhead). Moonraker (talk) 01:14, 27 March 2012 (UTC)

As a word in a dab extension I can live with either, but given the OED comment I would agree that it would be better as (Roundhead). -- PBS (talk) 08:21, 27 March 2012 (UTC)

Thanks to PBS for copying above my comment which supports "Roundhead". I have never thought of it as a slang term, any more than "Whig" or "Tory", and it's widely used. Motmit mentions "disgusting connotations"... I remember that rather a long time ago, when I was still in short trousers, other small boys used to call circumcized boys "Roundheads" and uncircumcized ones "Cavaliers": if rem acu tetigi, then the problem strikes me as pretty obscure, and of course it cuts both ways. Moonraker (talk) 21:54, 27 March 2012 (UTC)

I think it only cuts one way ;-) -- PBS (talk) 09:00, 28 March 2012 (UTC)

It is worth reading the article Roundhead. It starts with the clarifying statement that it is about the "Parliamentarians" during the English Civil War! (although it is not particularly helpful in describing Parliamentarians - it mainly explains the origin of the term roundhead). It makes it clear that this was a term of derision directed at Puritans who kept their hair closely cropped. Its first use was directed at the crowds outside parliament - many apprentices - who would now perhaps be called "Skinheads". It was also clearly inaccurate as many puritans decided to grow their hair long and portraits of many Parliamentarian commanders show them with full length hair. It was therefore simply an abusive nickname - rather like "fascists" for those on the Nationalist side in the Spanish Civil War - and it is really inappropriate (and disrespectful to their memory) to label people as such unless there is clear citation in official sources that names them as such. The term does not figure as far as I can see in official biographies such as DNB, Venn, Foster etc. It is a term more familiar in popular fiction and for those people who play games dressed as civil war soldiers. It is certainly unhelpful jargon for a world wide encyclopedia. (Where have I heard that before?)

I have taken on a tremendous challenge in trying to populate Wikipedia with 17th century Members of Parliament. One of the biggest problems is disambiguating identically named representatives. But there is one group that should be nice and easy. Members of the Long Parliament break down into Royalists and Parliamentarians - and to make it even easier these are already distinguished as such in the individual constituency articles. By the way, capital letters distinguish factions from simple adjectives. "Trade Unions are conservative organisations" is not the same as "The Monday Club is a Conservative organisation". So this convention of capitalised Royalist and Parliamentarian has been widely applied to those individuals who took sides in the Civil War. No confusions with their fathers, sons, uncles - "Simples"! -- and we avoid the non-U term MP!. There are only about two articles that now include roundhead in the title and in trying to change one of them to fit a widespread convention using terminology which is self explanatory rather that the jargon of school kids and civil war reenactment clubs I seem to have encountered an odd intransigence. I would prefer to be helped rather than hindered in this exercise. Regards Motmit (talk) 19:00, 28 March 2012 (UTC)

I admire your efforts to make a beginning with so many 17th century biographies, Motmit. I have started a much smaller number myself. I do not agree that "Roundhead" is jargon, any more than you and I ever agreed that "Old Amplefordians" and so forth is jargon. "Cavaliers and Roundheads" (the Cavaliers usually come first) is surely just as much a part of the English-speaking consciousness as "Whigs and Tories", or, indeed, "Oxford and Cambridge". The site historyworld.net has a page called CAVALIERS AND ROUNDHEADS which begins

These familiar terms for the two sides in the English Civil War are contemporary with the events. Indeed both are first recorded as early as 1641. They are originally derogatory, coined by the opposing side. Cavalier is a word only recently imported into English, deriving from a Spanish word for a mounted horseman or trooper and implying someone both brutal and papist. Roundhead, an invented word, applies to the puritan preference for short hair - and perhaps particularly to the style of the London apprentices, who feature in the mobs rioting in the streets on behalf of parliament.

I am comfortable with the use of "Royalist" and "Parliamentarian", and I use them both myself, but I am a little sceptical about "Parliamentarian" as a disambiguator in the Civil War period for members of parliament, as the royalist members were also (in the modern sense) parliamentarians, so there is an ambiguity which "Roundhead" doesn't have. Moonraker (talk) 01:20, 29 March 2012 (UTC)

The succeeding paragraph in the site historyworld.net launches into "1066 and All That" which suggests it belongs pretty firmly in the prep school classroom back row rather than in the higher echelons of historical authority. Again Capital P makes the difference. No doubt many Parliamentarians were cavalier in their attitudes. The disambiguation page has numerous meanings for roundhead.Motmit (talk) 07:34, 29 March 2012 (UTC)

The reason I included Whig and Tory along with Cavalier above, is that both of those terms started off as derogative nicknames, and were direct replacements for Roundhead and Cavalier (coming into common usage during the Exclusion Crisis (c. 1680)). "1066 and All That" pithily sums the Civil War, but there are plenty of examples of usage in reliable sources, and Roundhead has the advantage as a disambiguation extension of being succinct which Parliamentarian is not. As is shown by the OED entries all these words have long since stopped being slang.

Royalist also has "numerous meanings" that it could also mean supporters of nearly any royal family in any conflict over the last 400 years, but there is little chance that Francis Fane (royalist) is going to be mistaken for a supporter of Peter II of Yugoslavia as the dab extension is to easily differentiate him from other Francis Fanes and in particular his son Francis Fane (dramatist). The Dramatist was almost certainly also a supporter of the Royalist cause, but the dab extension makes it easy for someone to tell the difference between the men without reading the article by using a word that sums up their notability in line with WP:AT "Titles are names or descriptions of the topic that are recognizable to someone familiar with (though not necessarily expert in) the topic". Roundhead is better for this purpose if two men with the same name have both been members of parliament, and one supported the Parliamentary cause during the Civil War.

Reader looking for either of the two Edward Hungerfords for whom we have articles are more likely to be able to identify the one who fought in the civil war by a dab extension of (Roundhead) than knowing an internal rule Wikiepdia rule that because the dab extension is "(Parliamentarian)" and not "(parliamentarian)" it must mean a man who supported the parliamentary cause in the Civil War and not a notable Member of Parliament from another era.

It also helps in other cases were a man supported the Parliamentary cause but was not a Member of Parliament as with Anthony Hungerford (roundhead) and those Cavaliers like Anthony Hungerford (Royalist) who was also a Member of Parliament! -- PBS (talk) 12:22, 29 March 2012 (UTC)

Unless there is further objection or more to say about the issue, I intend to move this article to Edward Hungerford (Roundhead) in about 24 hours time, alter those links that currently link to Edward Hungerford (Parliamentarian) to Edward Hungerford (Roundhead) and re-redirect Edward Hungerford (Parliamentarian) back to Edward Hungerford. -- PBS (talk) 17:27, 31 March 2012 (UTC)

Missed the follow up. As Parliamentarian serves to show that he was a Member of Parliament as well as a supporter of the Parliamentary cause I would have though it was a more useful qualifier - except for people like Anthony who were not MPs. Every single qualifier I have used to try to distinguish members of parliament has been attacked at some time or another by someone with a bee in the bonnet so I doubt if we will ever get a agreed format. I am sick and tired of the absurd argument that readers will never be able to find things unless X's preferred terminology is used. That's the sort of nonsense that comes out of the good ol' category joke factory. Readers are quite intelligent - free text search is a brilliant tool for those who have learned to master it - we have hatnotes, lists, dambig pages, piping and all sorts to help the reader - and most of these articles have so few hits that I would surmise they are 99% found by hitting the random page button. Meanwhile those of us who actually create and edit articles are helped if they follow a pattern we understand. Fot this reason your redirect of Edward Hungerford (Parliamentarian) is extremely unhelpful and will be corrected in due course. This from someone who complained because I replaced a few useless redirects. I also find "Hungerford Market" (Meercat?) an incredibly cumbersome qualifier when an article already has Hungerford in the title and having the land for the market was only a tiny aspect of his life. But I can't be bothered with that. I notice you have been snooping about the Parliamentarian articles and I ask you please not to be disruptive. Motmit (talk) 13:11, 2 April 2012 (UTC)

"Meanwhile those of us who actually create and edit articles are helped if they follow a pattern we understand." It was I who created this article and gave it the disambiguation (roundhead)! Motmit we edit in the same area and although we usually agree (eg talk:Sir Oliver Cromwell) there will be times when we disagree (a good thing really it helps stop accusations of sock-puppetry), but I think comment such as "I notice you have been snooping about the Parliamentarian articles and I ask you please not to be disruptive." Show a lack of good faith, (particularly because if you look at the last article I have edited for this era it is the creation of an article called List of Roman Catholic handed over to the judiciary in the London area during the 1640s and the edit to two pages Peter Wright (martyr) George Gage (Catholic) which now link to that list) and I would hope that on reflection you will see that your last posting is inappropriate. -- PBS (talk) 16:01, 2 April 2012 (UTC)

PB - I include you among "those of us" - so no slight is intended. When creating and linking lots of articles I find simplicity and consistency make the whole thing quicker and easier- especially with increasing limitations short term memory. So inconsistent capitalisation, eight digit numbers, variations in dash symbols, unpredictable prepositions and generally long-winded descriptions all cause hiccups that waste time that could be better spent. That is why I think this aspect is more important that worrying about the reader who is well provided for in lots of way. After all if there is a 50/50 divide in choice of a dabex, the reader argument suggests that 50% will be disadvantaged. For editing purposes I often create a simpler or more consistent redirects and sometimes we end up with more links to the redirect than the original and it seems sensible to move the article. There were only two MP articles which used Roundhead and it did not seem a big deal to rename them. It does not help me though if you redirect my perfectly satisfactory redirects to something less appropriate. Snooping around, I see you have had dealings with Mercat Cross (not Meercat?}:} and also are irritated by the dmb edits. Another irritant that has sprung up is hundreds of changes to a wretched dash template.Regards Motmit (talk) 12:19, 3 April 2012 (UTC)

To further the point I googled Edward Hungerford Parliamentarian (1620 hits) and apart from three wiki based sites, six of the first ten sites specifically call him "Parliamentarian", including LA websites, books, local guides and the History of Parliament online - Viz 1 Chippenham local authority website "and Sir Edward Hungerford MP, our local Parliamentarian leader" 2 Corsham local authority website "Among the later owners of the Lordship was Sir Edward Hungerford, a prominent Parliamentarian at the time of the Civil War" 3 Stephen C. Manganiello The concise encyclopedia of the revolutions and wars of England, Scotland... "Parliamentarians: Sir Edward Hungerford" 4 Wardour Castle website "the castle was attacked by Sir Edward Hungerford, a Parliamentarian commander" 5 History of Parliament Online - Sir Edward Hungerford (1632-1711) "the death of Sir Edward Hungerford†, the Parliamentarian colonel," 6 Wiltshire road names in London - which interestingly confuses the identity of the Parliamentarian in the Civil War with the spendthrift. Note Parliamentarian with capital P is a very widely used identifier in general parlance and not an "internal Wiki rule". Googling Edward Hungerford Roundhead (1349 hits) returns almost entirely Wiki articles, wiki mirrors and text based on your Wiki article. It is demonstrably a great disservice to users of websites refering to "Parliamentarian" to force them to choose among four Edward Hungerford MPs instead of going directly to the correct, albeit inappropriately named, article. Motmit (talk) 15:43, 4 April 2012 (UTC)

I searched Google books with ["Edward Hungerford" parliamentarian], it seems that Google in their ever helpful way include "Parliamentarian", "Parliament" and "Parliamentary" under the same search. Anyway in the first 10 pages returned two of the books are clearly not of the Roundhead: "The House of Commons, 1660-1690 - Page 439 " and "Cobbett's parliamentary history of England: from the Norman ...: Volume 4". It seems that the Roundhead is the most notable because he was involved in the Civil War, and as such he will get the most hits with any combination of "Parliamentarian", "Parliament" or "Parliamentary", but if we follow that logic we should place the article under Edward Hungerford. However we do not usually use ghits to decide on notability, if we did then people with face book accounts can end up more notable than an historical namesake. -- PBS (talk) 17:32, 5 April 2012 (UTC)

Helpful tip: - If you put words in quotes, then google won't give you variations - ie ["Edward Hungerford" "Parliamentarian"]. Motmit (talk) 19:01, 5 April 2012 (UTC)

Capital and small letters

Is there a problem recognising the difference between a capitalised word "Parliamentarian" being a proper noun, and a non capitalised word "parliamentarian" being a common noun or adjective? I do not think so, because the common noun "roundhead" has been changed to "Roundhead" in the light of this distinction. Motmit (talk) 17:32, 17 June 2012 (UTC)

Please could you explain the context of your request as I can not see the word Parliamentarian in this article. -- PBS (talk) 18:56, 17 June 2012 (UTC)

You have reverted my direction of EH (Parliamentarian) to the Roundhead back to the dambig page in which not all EHs were parliamentarians. Motmit (talk) 19:41, 17 June 2012 (UTC)

No they were not, but more than one was a parliamentarian. This is a repeat of the conversation in the previous section. I suggest that if you want to change the link then you get more people involved in the conversation and see if you can gain a consensus to do so. Perhaps first a third opinion and then if there is still no agreement an RfC. -- PBS (talk) 10:05, 19 June 2012 (UTC)

For the context see [history] of the redirect Edward Hungerford (Parliamentarian) -- PBS (talk) 10:10, 19 June 2012 (UTC)

Disambiguation

The descriptor 'Roundhead' is not one used by historians, other than those of the Arthur Bryant or 1066 persuasion. It is perfectly possible to use Died 1648 to identify this individual, as is the case for others named Edward Hungerford.

Robinvp11 (talk) 13:55, 24 June 2018 (UTC)

Requested move 18 July 2023

The following is a closed discussion of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on the talk page. Editors desiring to contest the closing decision should consider a move review after discussing it on the closer's talk page. No further edits should be made to this section.

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Edward Hungerford (Roundhead) → Edward Hungerford (died 1648) – This matches the other Edward Hungerford articles (see DAB page) and avoids the use of the word "Roundhead", which is outdated at best — GhostInTheMachine ^{talk to me} 07:33, 18 July 2023 (UTC)

The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.