Talk:Eugen Kvaternik

Issue of issue

There is a referenced GF claim in the present incarnation of the article that this particular Eugen Kvaternik was Ustaše Vojskovođa Slavko Kvaternik's grandfather. The claim is presently backed by three references: Lampe, Bartulin, and Roszkowski & Kofman. While Bartulin offers no word on the pages specified in the ref (pp.77-78), Roszkowski & Kofman actually claim Eugen is Slavko's father. The latter is clearly impossible since Eugen died seven years before Slavko was born. Lampe indeed notes that Slavko is Eugen's grandson, but I find the claim WP:Extraordinary since I cannot find any other source backing the claim and for several other reasons. (1) Tomasevich, in p.348 of the Occupation and Collaboration notes Rakovica revolt and its significance for the NDH but omits any mention of relationship of the two Kvaterniks (2) Bzik in Ustaška borba would certainly note the relationship as he glorifies the NDH regime (the book was printed in 1942) and Rakovica revolt, but fails to do so even though Ustaše worked to establish "a Rakovica cult" according to Tomasevich, (3) Tko je Tko u NDH (Who's Who in NDH) likewise mentions no relationship, (4) Markus (cited in Further Reading) writes at length specifically about 1825 born Kvaternik and mentions no children, (5) Cesarec's play based on 1825 Kvaternik's life likewise mentions no children, (6) personal circumstances of the two Kvaterniks do not appear to match very well: Kvaternik who led Rakovica revolt was a son of a Zagreb University professor of law and born in Zagreb, while Slavko was born in Moravice as a son of a postman - which is certainly not impossible to reconcile, but unlikely; Slavko was born when Eugen would have been 63 had he not been killed which is quite a generation gap for the 19th century - again not impossible, but not that common in rural Gorski Kotar.

While Lampe supports this claim, the source does so "in passing" when it says on p.175 "At the same time, fellow Ustaša founder and Josip Frank's son-in-law, Slavko Kvaternik, set up student clubs named after his grandfather, Eugen, who had been martyred in an 1871 uprising (see chapter 2)." In chapter 2, the source says Kvaternik led an abortive uprising in 1871 which led to his death, but nothing else.

This is not a case of WP:IDL. While I assumed the two Kvaterniks are unrelated, I have no problem with them being related or unrelated - but it seems WP:Extraordinary applies here. After all, I'd expect ample coverage of the personal relationship between Slavko Kvaternik and the leader of Rakovica Revolt at the very least in the NDH period if not elsewhere. Amanuensis Balkanicus can you please find more sources to back up this claim?--Tomobe03 (talk) 15:15, 7 October 2021 (UTC)

Some anonymous user appealed to me on my Talk page about this as well. I did a google search of site:hrcak.srce.hr with all sorts of permutations of eugen/dido kvaternik unuk/djed, as it would be absolutely expected that some Croatian journal articles would discuss this sort of a grandson/grandfather relationship of two notable individuals. But all I found was a lot of irrelevant material, and a single mention of the matter at hand:

Marić je u tom dokumentu za Slavka Kvaternika napisao je da nije potomak Eugena Kvaternika, nego talijanske obitelji Quaterna koja se sredinom 19. stoljeća doselila u Gorski kotar.

translated: "In that document, Marić wrote that Slavko Kvaternik was not a descendent of Eugen Kvaternik, but an Italian family of Quaterna that moved to Gorski Kotar in the mid 19th century."

That's from https://hrcak.srce.hr/index.php?show=clanak&id_clanak_jezik=306091&lang=en which is written by a Croatian historian for whom I've found some controversy about their other works, but it doesn't seem likely that this statement that just cites a primary source would be controversial.

So apparently their lack of actual lineage was a talking point at the time as well. I guess some of these western historians just assumed too much? More of a disaster porn trend but in reliable sources? *groan* --Joy [shallot] (talk) 17:18, 7 October 2021 (UTC)

@Tomobe03: @Joy: Thanks for digging into this issue and offering evidence that the three aforementioned sources may be mistaken (wouldn't be the first time it's happened). I didn't cite this in my edits, but Goldstein & Goldstein's The Holocaust in Croatia also talks about Dido Kvaternik "being descended from two prominent Croatian nationalist figures", but I concede it's possible the Goldsteins also got it wrong. Based off your analysis and WP:V, I agree it would be appropriate to remove this sentence until an unimpeachable source is found (i.e. one with a genealogical chart, etc.)

However, in stark contrast to your helpful input, the IP's approach has been far from constructive, and their first edit summary should at the very least be deleted for being grossly abusive. Amanuensis Balkanicus (talk) 00:38, 8 October 2021 (UTC)

Amanuensis Balkanicus I suppose, if Goldsteins did not name names, they might have been referring to Dido Kvaternik's father (i.e. Slavko Kvaternik) and Josip Frank (his maternal grandfather) who would certainly fit the description too.

Unfortunately summary edits are often neglected or misused/abused. I hope things improve over time for evereyone's sake.--Tomobe03 (talk) 06:57, 8 October 2021 (UTC)