Talk:Saint-Jean-Baptiste Day

I am trying to get information about this holiday. Ihave read about a feast. What is eaten at such a feast? Alby

• Heh heh heh, at the feast that I know of we only drink beer, a lot of it. Red Star
• Haha, this article is a bit lacking on what REALLY happens on St. Jean Baptiste, after having speat my summer in Montreal, everyone essentially gets the day off to drink, and in Copious amounts, in the parks, in the streets, and in their homes, it's a great holiday, much better than Canada day.
• BEER. The Saint-Jean is a celebration of beer. And stuff. Mostly beer. But stuff too!

July 1st renewal of rental agreements in Québec

From the article: There is also a law in Quebec which stipulates that July 1st is the day for yearly renewal of property rental agreements. Really? I don't see any mention of july first in the Code civil du québec (See articles 1941 to 1946 which deal with renewal). Am I missing something?

You are correct. The current civil code no longer prescribes any particular period of the year for the renewal. Read this for a possible explanation :

• Réseau des services d'archives du Québec - Coutumes et culture - Déménagement -- Mathieugp 02:58, 2 May 2006 (UTC)
• In brief, a change in law way back resulted in a lot of residential leases coming up for renewal on 1 July, and by inertia people keep renewing on the same date. Peter Grey 02:40, 24 June 2006 (UTC)

Reject the Koolaid Blog Link

Reject the Koolaid Blog celebrates the fete today with a short tribute as a link to this is irrelevant, unencylopedic and is simply an attempt to a) get people to go to the blog in question or b) encourage negative feelings towards French Quebecers because of her negative experience as an Anglo-Quebecer on the Saint-Jean-Baptiste. It has been removed a few times I believe but Tearfree keeps putting it back in. - TheJF

I do not consider my experience as an Anglo Quebecer negative at all. I love Quebec. That's why I live here. This is a humour piece about Quebec and, as such, is perfectly appropriate for today and the next few days. After that, I agree with you that it becomes irrelevant. Why don't you just add your comments instead of constantly removing this piece? Tearfree

Okay everybody, take it easy.

I humbly recommend that everyone take a break from the reverting. I already see one breach of the 3 revert rule here, but have no intention of reporting it as long as the reverting stops. I recommend that the people involved in the brewing edit war take a break from editing this article for a while and let other people sort it out. - Che Nuevara: ^{Join the Revolution} 00:58, 25 June 2006 (UTC)

I can live with that evenif I never thought of Che as being one to compromise. Tearfree

Thank you, Tearfree. I have no knowledge of the subject, so I'm not here to sort out the factual confusion -- I just don't want to see anyone get blocked.

By the way, it's a great help to everyone if you sign your posts with a link to your userpage and the datestamp. All you have to do is type ~~~~ at the end of your message, and the wikicode takes care of the rest. - Che Nuevara: ^{Join the Revolution} 01:18, 25 June 2006 (UTC)

Copying what I said on Che Nuevara's talk page, I would like to point out the problem with Tearfree's external link to her blog: Wikipedia:External_links, Links to normally avoid, Line 12: Blogs, social networking sites (such as MySpace) and forums should generally not be linked to. Although there are exceptions, such as when the article is about, or closely related to, the website itself, or if the website is of particularly high standard.

Tearfree's blog entry is a personal story, so I don't think it qualifies as an exception, hence it should be removed. I also think it fuels the stereotype of Quebecers as rude and racist (where the guy says "get out of my country"). I don't dispute that it did happen to her, but I can't help but feel linking to such a personal story in an entry on the Saint-Jean-Baptiste gives that impression.

Note that this has been edited before by Mathieugp, although I am sure he had some bias in there because his profile declares him to be a Quebec sovereigntists.

Disclaimer: I am not a Quebecer, I'm Acadian. TheJF 01:26, 25 June 2006 (UTC)

Even federalists are nationalists. They just think that being in Canad serve us beter. And nobody like to see his people branded as 'x'.

Nationalist Bias

Referring to la Fete nationale as Quebec's "national" holiday implies that Quebec is a nation (this is impossible, it is a province in Canada), and runs afoul of NPOV standards here on wikipedia. I believe it should be referred to indirectly as a holiday of the province of Quebec, not as Quebec's national holiday. Obviously its proper name should remain the same, but in the editoral context here on Wikipedia, it should be referred to with the former and not the latter title. In the meantime, I've put "quotations" around the word national when used in the wikipedia 'this is a fact' context in the article. 66.130.181.233 21:30, 25 June 2006 (UTC)

Quebec can be considered a nation even if it is not a sovereign one, and even if there was not a movement for it to be an independent nation.

Dictionary. 1. 3. A people who share common customs, origins, history, and frequently language; a nationality: “Historically the Ukrainians are an ancient nation which has persisted and survived through terrible calamity” (Robert Conquest).

To use the Dictionary example, Ukraine could still be referred to as a nation even during the USSR. The holiday is considered a National Holiday by the government, and thus, it should be referred as so.

It is good to note that although I am Quebecois, I am not supportive of the nationalist movement. --A Sunshade Lust 22:24, 25 June 2006 (UTC)

Perhaps it could be considered a nation, but my point is that this is not for us to decide nor proclaim. 66.130.181.233 05:03, 26 June 2006 (UTC)

It is not for us to decide whether Quebec is a nation or not, but it is a fact that A) it is called La fête nationale du Québec which translates to "Quebec National holiday" B) that is what the governement of Quebec calls it too even under a federalist Premier (see http://www.cnt.gouv.qc.ca/en/normes/fete_nationale.asp) C) if we are to question whether Quebec is a nation, we should also question whether Canada is one which we don't. (That is called being neutral). D) one does not need to be nationalist to recognize Quebec as a nation, one only needs to know the meaning of the word nation. Nation can be synonymous with sovereign state but that is not the only meaning of the word an certainly not the first. -- Mathieugp 05:21, 26 June 2006 (UTC)

A is not in dispute. B is irrelevant, it doesn't matter who calls it what, only that we cannot proclaim it to be something it is not generally accepted to be. Quebec may claim to be a nation, but the rest of Canada does not necessarily think so. Again, it's not for us to decide. C is gratuitous and irrelevant; Canada is recognized as a nation in the broader international context and there is no real debate on the issue. D may perhaps be true, but again, this is a controversial issue and we should not be taking sides.

To affirm the positive and describe Quebec as a nation is to take a side. To affirm the negative and describe it as 'not a nation' is to take a side. To simply state that Quebec has claimed itself to be a nation and that this fact is in dispute is the proper NPOV we should be taking. In all places in the article, the word 'nation' when mentioned in the wikipedia editorial voice should maintain this NPOV no matter what. 66.130.181.233 15:49, 26 June 2006 (UTC)

What specific sentence(s) do you have a problem with? Maybe this would help me understand your thinking.

So far, I think that doing what you suggested would be pushing the NPOV policy to an extreme. Following your reasoning, most Wikipedia articles dealing with science would currently be written in a NPOV manner, and should be fixed because they say something contrary to some Christian fundamentalist beliefs. The NPOV policy is not there to go around the main purpose of an encyclopedia: to inform with facts.

It can be demonstrated easily that Quebec fits the description of a nation, unless we are using the word as a synonym for "independent state". If this article asserted that Quebec was a "sovereign nation" or an "independent state" or whatever, it would simply be untrue and would be removed in 10 sec., but I see no such claim in this article. At the present, Canada does not recognize Quebec as a nation officially for reasons that are primarily political. The main reason why the federal government does not affirm that Quebec is "not a nation" is also political.

Ultimately, to block "any description of Quebec as a nation" because the federal state of Canada has not yet taken a side on this is censorship. The federal state of Canada's opinion on Quebec does not allow us to claim, as you claimed, that Quebec is not "generally" accepted to be a nation.

I understand that it is your perception that Quebec is not generally accepted to be a nation. From where I come from, Quebec, Quebec is generally accepted to be a nation that is not sovereign and not recognized by Ottawa. Also, both our individual perceptions cannot allow us to know what is "generally" accepted to be or not. It depends in which social milieu you evolve in.

If I entered a room full of random people gave them a description of the word nation, a description of Quebec, how many people would assert that Quebec is not a non-sovereign nation? Following such an experient, we could maybe talk about what people generally think. Quebec compares to other non-sovereign nations like Scotland or Catalonia and one would have to deny much evidence to claim the opposite. -- Mathieugp 21:23, 26 June 2006 (UTC)

Quebec is considered to be a nation. When you arrive in Quebec City, roadsigns welcome you to the "Capitale nationale".

Title

Can anyone explain why this is at Fete nationale du Quebec, rather than St Jean Baptiste Day? It's la Saint-Jean in Quebec more commonly than Fete nationale, and for english-speakers it's Saint Jean Baptiste Day. Why privilege a political rebranding of the holiday which hasn't even gained acceptance? I say, move and provide a forward. Given the earlier debates, I should perhaps note that I say this as someone with no problem with the definition of Quebec as a nation.

Essentially for two reasons: 1) Midsummer/Nativity of St. John the Baptist/St. John the Baptist Day is a religious celebration common to many (historically) Catholic nations. 2) The public holiday of June 24, St. John the Baptist Day, is officially called the National Holiday since 1977.

Out of habit, a great many Quebecers continued to call the day la Saint-Jean just as they kept calling breakers breillequeur even after learning that in French the word was disjoncteur. A people changes their habits as easily as an individual it seems... :-) --- Mathieugp 23:10, 25 June 2007 (UTC)

Quebecers or québécois?

I feel that "québécois" is a more pleasant title and more politically correct, so I made the replacement. If you are of the other opinion, feel free to revert, but please comment. Thanks. Tyler (talk) 07:57, 2 May 2008 (UTC)

The English word "Quebecer" translates the French word "Québécois". In every Act of the Parliament of Quebec or any regulation or official administrative document, that is the term used. -- Mathieugp (talk) 14:33, 2 May 2008 (UTC)

Financing & Political signification

I just came across this article on cyberpresse.ca which may be a good reference (read the second part "Le Québec choyé?") to the "Political nature of the celebration" paragraph of this article. I'm not sur how to link this properly, or if it's even a good idea to do this, considering the Cyberpresse article is in French. Unfortunately, there doesn't appear to be an equivalent article in the current editions of Montreal's English media. Scyrma (talk) 13:42, 23 June 2008 (UTC)

Why a French title?

Why is this article under a French title? This is an English Wikipedia, so it should be at Quebec National Holiday, shouldn't it? — Kpalion^(talk) 22:29, 24 June 2008 (UTC)

User Kpalion is right. It is called the "National Holiday" in the very Act of Parliament giving the day its legal existence. The article should consequently be given an English name, since it is exists officially. I am moving the article to "Quebec's National Holiday". -- Mathieugp (talk) 01:29, 30 June 2008 (UTC)

: The usual English translation is Saint Jean Baptiste Day.

• [Canadian Encyclopedia]
• [Encyclopedia Britannica]
• [Parliament of Canada]
• [Prime Minister's Adress]
• [Governor General]
• [State of Maine]
• [NDP Homepage]
• [Montreal Tourist site]

Only the Quebec government uses this translation, and it holds not legal weight as English is not an official language in Quebec. I don't see why one translation should weigh more than the common usage of the term in English.

--soulscanner (talk) 01:50, 30 June 2008 (UTC)

Requested move

Proposal

• So we have a consensus here that the article should be given an English name. That is good.

However, "Quebec's national holiday" is a poor choice because of Wikipedia naming conventions:

" ... article naming should prefer what the greatest number of English speakers would most easily recognize"

The following scholarly and popular sources all show that English-speaking Canadians and Americans as a whole recognize June 24 as Saint Jean Baptiste Day:

• [Canadian Encyclopedia]
• [Encyclopedia Britannica]
• [Parliament of Canada]
• [Prime Minister's Adress]
• [Governor General]
• [City of Montreal]
• [City of Lethbridge]
• [State of Maine]
• [NDP Homepage]
• [Montreal Tourist site]
• [Ontario Government]

Only Quebec government translations uses the direct translation "Quebec's national holiday", and even this holds no legal weight as English is not an official language in Quebec. I don't see why an invalid legalistic translation should weigh more than the common usage of the term in English, particularly since wikipolicies discourage specialized legal contexts like this:

"The names of Wikipedia articles should be optimized for readers over editors, and for a general audience over specialists."

--soulscanner (talk) 05:50, 30 June 2008 (UTC)

Response Part 1

• The belief that Fête nationale was also the official name of it in English was my initial assumption. I was mistaken. Indeed, many institutions in Québec retain their French name in English, in all official documents emanating from both Québec and Ottawa, as per Quebec's Charter of the French Language. For example, Commission des normes du travail does, but many others do not. In the case we are concerned with, as I have clearly showed above by linking to the National Holiday Act, "National Holiday" and not Fête nationale is used. There are many reasons why, in virtue of Wikipedia's naming conventions, and other good reasons, the article should be moved from Fête nationale du Québec to "Quebec's National Holiday":

1) 1.5 Use English words: Convention: Name your pages in English and place the native transliteration on the first line of the article unless the native form is more commonly recognized by readers than the English form.

This is precisely what I am proposing to do. Just that is good reason enough, but there is more.

2) 1.7 Be precise when necessary: Convention: Please, do not write or put an article on a page with an ambiguously named title as though that title had no other meanings. If all possible words have multiple meanings, go with the rule of thumb of naming guidelines and use the more popular term.

As the articles Midsummer and Nativity of St. John the Baptist reveal, Quebecers are not the only people celebrating June 24th. I will come back to this later, but in a nutshell, the subject of the article is June 24 as Quebec's National Holiday while the more general topic of St. John the Baptist's Day is covered elsewhere in this encyclopedia.

3) "Quebec National Holiday" is used extensively with 40,900 hits. It is obviously less used than "Fête nationale du Québec" (88,900 hits) but not in English. Obviously, the facts that Quebecers are a majority to speak French, have French as their only official language, are there to explain why 99% of all things written on Quebec's National Holiday are done so in French. In spite of this, we still get a far from negligible 40,900 hits.

4) "National Holiday" is not only used extensively, it is officially called that way. I do not understand where the idea that it would be "an invalid legalistic translation" comes from. Which word of the three words in "Quebec's National Holiday" would be legal jargon? Had the Parliament of Quebec wanted to recognize Fête nationale as the only official designation in any language, it could have made a regulation concerning this. But it did not. And "National Holiday" does not only show up in that Act of Parliament, it shows up in 40,900 Google hits. The complete dismissal of Quebec's main political institutions (the Parliament and the Government) as sources worthy of mention strikes me as severely biased. To my knowledge, this would be unprecedented inside Wikipedia.

Reasons why moving from Fête nationale du Québec to "Saint Jean Baptiste Day" is not a good idea:

A) As alluded to above, the article's subject is about June 24th, St. John the Baptist Day since before Quebec even existed, as Quebec's own particular National Holiday. In the French Wikipedia, confusion arose from the fact that Fête de la Saint-Jean redirected straight to Fête nationale du Québec. In other words, Quebec cannot claim "Saint Jean Baptist Day" to itself. Many people searching for this holiday will not be finding what they were looking for in this Quebec-centric article. There is a need for disambiguation there, which a good name provides.

B) That "Saint-Jean-Baptiste Day", "St. Jean Baptiste Day" or other forms is used a lot in English is about as significant as the fact that "New York City" is often called the "Big Apple". It is certainly worthy of mention in the article, in fact in the case of Quebec's National Holiday, it is impossible to go around, but in my opinion not sufficient to justify making abstraction of the day's official name in the English language.

Soulscanner's unilateral renaming to "Fête nationale du Québec (Saint Jean Baptiste Day)" is even more problematic:

a) After reverting my renaming, stating that such a bold move should first be discussed in the talk page, he arbitrarily decides to go his own way, not waiting for any feedback. That is about as contradictory as it can get.

b) The new title combines the weaknesses of both "Fête nationale du Québec" and "Saint Jean Baptiste Day", and adds the new and important one of its being unprecedented among articles in the National Days category. -- Mathieugp (talk) 17:02, 30 June 2008 (UTC)

• None of this addresses the point at hand, which is that wiki naming conventions require choosing the term most English speakers will recognize. You have made no argument about which expression English speakers are most likely to recognize. In English-speaking Canada and the U.S., the most common usage and most easily recognized term is Saint Jean Baptiste Day, and I've provided references that show this. Official Quebec government translations, which are numerous on the web, do not reflect general usage among English-speakers, except within the Quebec government, where English-speakers are actually rather rare. Wikipedia and most English-speakers are not governed by the translation policies of the Quebec government. --soulscanner (talk) 22:04, 30 June 2008 (UTC)

• The Wiki convention on naming articles is made out of many points, and cannot be reduced to the "requirement" of choosing the term most English speakers will recognize. First of all, the whole point of this is not to introduce either colloquialism or inaccessible technical jargon in the naming of the articles. This is not at all the case here between "Saint-Jean-Baptiste Day" and "Quebec's National Holiday". Not only that, but the sources you provided "prove" absolutely nothing. Many of these sources are not concerned with our National Holiday specifically and there are several repetitions:

1. The Canadian Encyclopedia article is concerned with the celebration of SJB Day throughout Canada and the USA. Of course the article cannot be named either "Fête nationale du Québec" or "Quebec's National Holiday" if that is the focus of the article.

2. The Encyclopedia Britannica article is actually named "Fête Nationale du Québec". Was Wikipedia their source?

3. The Heritage Canada page is concerned with the celebration of SJB Day in Canada only and induce readers to believe that French Canadians somehow would still be honouring their Patron Saint! Talk about outdatedness!

4. The Prime Minister, Governor General, or the Parliament or the Government are all really one source and it would have been surprising if it had differed from Heritage Canada. They follow a common policy on this.

5. Ville de Montréal: A one liner in a communiqué?

6. City of Lethbridge: This one talks about the francophone minority of Alberta.

7. State of Maine: This one talks about the Franco-Americans of Maine.

8. NDP: Our buddy Jack here is talking "to all Quebecers and francophones of Canada".

9. Montreal.about.com: their article is almost entirely copied off Wikipedia's.

10. Ontario govt: this one is concerned with "Canada's Francophones" in general and Franco-Ontarians in particular.

-- Mathieugp (talk) 16:55, 1 July 2008 (UTC)

• The naming convention are clear:

A - " ... article naming should prefer what the greatest number of English speakers would most easily recognize"

B - " Convention: Name your pages in English and place the native transliteration on the first line of the article unless the native form is more commonly recognized by readers than the English form."

For Example, see Bastille Day. If you do not accept this, I can't discuss this reasonably with you.

--soulscanner (talk) 03:10, 3 July 2008 (UTC)

• Several of your statements are also just plane wrong.

1. You are wrong that modern Quebec is not included in the article. The article on Saint Jean Baptiste celebrations documents Quebec Saint Jean festivities to the 90's. Example: " In 1990 the show 'Aux portes du pays' was given alternately at the Plains of Abraham and St-Helen's Island. This event, led by the singers Gilles Vigneault, Paul Piché, and Michel Rivard, attracted some 200,000 people."

2. The Encyclopedia Britanicca does not get its info from Wikipedia, as you imply

3. Quebec is in Canada, and obviously included in the Heritage Canada description.

4. Good point on the policies of the federal government. So which is a better authority on how English is commonly used and which terms would be most easily recognized in English: The government of Canada, which operates in English and French, or the Government of Quebec, which operated in French-only?

5. The Montrela website shows how Emglish is used and recognized in Quebec among English-speakers in Montreal.

6. Indeed. Franco Albertans also celebrate the French culture, just like the Quebecois.

7.In Maine, Saint Jean Baptiste is more easily recognized than Fete Nationale.

8. Indeed, he wishes a happy Saint Jean Baptiste to all Quebecers. He calls what teh Quebec government calls the "Fete Nationale" "Saint Jean Baptiste Day" like most anglophones.

9. Again, you're making it up. It is attributed Evelyn Reid, and her sources are listed at the bottom of the page. Wikipedia is not one of them.

10. The Ontario site celebrates Canada's francophones", which includes Quebec francophones. Similarly, as shown elsewhere, Quebec's festivities celebrate 400 years of francophone presence in North America. The similarities and overlap outweighs the differences.

--soulscanner (talk) 06:10, 3 July 2008 (UTC)

Response Part 2

• I've no preference for either article title; but IMO this should've been discussed more (before being moved). GoodDay (talk) 17:41, 30 June 2008 (UTC)

• Whatever is done, it cannot be moved to just "St. Jean Baptiste Day", as St. Jean Baptiste Day is celebrated in many parts of the world, without being a national holiday there. I don't have an objection to adding (St Jean Baptiste Day) to either "Fete Nationale du Quebec" or "Quebec National Holiday".--Ramdrake (talk) 23:49, 30 June 2008 (UTC)

• The only thing relevant with the naming of the article here is this guideline:

Convention: Name your pages in English and place the native transliteration on the first line of the article unless the native form is more commonly recognized by readers than the English form.

The above references clearly show that in most of Canada and the U.S., Saint Jean de Baptiste Day is more recognizable than the other terms. In Quebec, both are equally recognizable, so it does not favor one region over the other.

The fact that the Quebec government has called it a national holiday should be mentioned in the lead, of course, but it needs to be attributed to the Quebec government since the majority of English-speakers would not use the word "national".

As for national holidays, Independence Day, Bastille Day, and Canada Day are all national holidays, but they are not named as National Holiday of the United States, France and Canada on Wikipedia. --soulscanner (talk) 01:43, 1 July 2008 (UTC)

• What a mess has been made with the mutilple moves. Let's have it discussed out. I think it is clear that the ideal title would be Saint-Jean-Baptiste Day as that is how it is best known and referred to in English. It is correct that the celebration of Saint-Jean-Baptiste Day is not isolated to Quebec and that the celebration is special and unique from others so separate articles may be desirable, though there is no non-Quebec Saint-Jean-Baptiste Day article yet. I would suggest a stub be created for a general Saint-Jean-Baptiste Day article and the specific Quebec article be located either at Saint-Jean-Baptiste Day (Quebec) or Saint-Jean-Baptiste Day (Canada). Cheers! DoubleBlue (Talk) 01:31, 1 July 2008 (UTC)
  • Probably the best available solution; but the English for June 24 is St. John's Day. Septentrionalis PMAnderson 15:19, 1 July 2008 (UTC)
    • That's a good point. Would any other article about the day be called Saint-Jean-Baptiste Day or would they be called St. John's Day or similar? DoubleBlue (Talk) 20:14, 1 July 2008 (UTC)
      • This is a good point. Saint John's Day is a Catholic festival celebrated all over the world. Saint Jean Baptiste Day refers to a celebration of French Canadian culture all across Canada and in the U.S. as well. Please check the references above for confirmation. --soulscanner (talk) 03:29, 2 July 2008 (UTC)
        • I update my support for moving (returning?) to Saint Jean Baptiste Day. Outside of Quebec political-speak, it is largely referred to as that in English. I don't see any evidence that other celebrations having origins with Saint John, the Baptist, would be titled Saint Jean Baptiste Day in the English Wikipedia so disambiguation is unnecessary, though friendly hat-notes and See also sections would be good. The fact of being also known as la Fête nationale du Quebec should be noted as well in the lede. DoubleBlue (Talk) 23:27, 2 July 2008 (UTC)
• The current title is terrible. "Name (synonym)" is against the conventions and forces a redirect for any reasonable search. The multiple moves have not been done properly either, and now there are double and triple (and more) redirects, so it's a horrible mess on top of that. As much as the official name is "official", it's not common use in English (even in French, "la Saint-Jean" is arguably more used than "fête nationale"). So, for an article on Quebec's National Holiday (the government appointed official name in English) the title should probably be Saint-Jean-Baptiste Day (hyphen use debatable, but I'd rather not use the abbreviation St. for Saint). Any official and other common use names (in French and English) should be included in the introduction. Everything else regarding Quebec's national holiday should redirect there. A disambiguation to separate article(s) on the various June 24 celebrations (either relating to Saint-John the Baptist or the summer solstice) would be necessary on the page as well (instead of making a separate section on such holidays as celebrated outside of Quebec).--Boffob (talk) 16:23, 1 July 2008 (UTC)
  • Mea Culpa ... I screwed up trying to change it back to Fete Nationale du Quebec after it was moved to Quebec National Holiday without discussion. It requires administrator intervention to fix. --soulscanner (talk) 03:29, 2 July 2008 (UTC)
• I agree with a disambiguation. The general June 24th article already exist as Midsummer Day. The specific religious celebration is at Nativity of St. John the Baptist. The subject here is neither the pagan celebration of the sun, nor the Christian honouring of St. John the Baptist, but the secular national day of Quebecers. Regarding the most commonly used expression in English, well ""Saint Jean Baptiste Day" currently returns only 17,000 hits. Oddly enough, the changes we have made here appear to have affected Google results greatly as "Quebec National Holiday" went from 40,900 hits just yesterday to 7,380 hits. In any case, we cannot assert for certain that one is widely used while the other isn't. In the French language article, the fact that "Fête nationale" is the real name while "la St-Jean-Baptiste" or simply "la St-Jean" are popular nicknames is in the lead paragraph. It would be odd if the English article had it reversed. -- Mathieugp (talk) 16:55, 1 July 2008 (UTC)

• This clearly shows how google hits are unreliable; there are too many sources that refer to this page to be reliable, and shows why so many are anxious to use Wikipedia to push political POV's. We need solid multiple references. Wikipedia is not here to advance the translation policies of the Quebec government. There are ten solid references above that show that the most recognizable name in English is Saint Jean Baptiste Day. It should be mentioned that the official Quebec government name is just like the Fete Nationale du Quebec, that the official Quebec government translation is National Holiday of Quebec, and that the common French name is La Saint Jean. Bastille Day is a good precedent for this. --soulscanner (talk) 03:29, 2 July 2008 (UTC)

• The current name is bad because it is formatted as a disambiguation but as there's only one Fête nationale du Québec there's nothing to disambiguate. Reversing it to Saint Jean Baptiste Day (Fête nationale du Québec) would make more sense as there are other St. John the Baptist Days. Reggie Perrin (talk) 19:13, 1 July 2008 (UTC)
• Although I'm not really sure which title would be best, I must say that the current one is awful. Saint Jean Baptiste Day would probably be best for english speakers, then we can start to cleanup all the mis-redirects. -Royalguard11(T) 19:59, 1 July 2008 (UTC)

Response Part 3

• Absolutely support a move to Saint Jean Baptiste Day. Quebec's National Holiday is awkward, never used in English, and ignores the fact that while it is a statutory holiday in Quebec, it is celebrated by French-Canadians outside the province. Gabrielthursday (talk) 20:50, 2 July 2008 (UTC)

• I think editors may want to first discuss whether the article is about

1)The generic holiday of the saint patron of French-Canadians, celebrated throughout Canada and in some parts of the United States

2)The official National Holiday of the Province of Quebec, declared as such since 1977.

These are two related holidays, but they're definitely not the same in scope or meaning (at least in the present). Maybe they should have separate articles?--Ramdrake (talk) 23:46, 2 July 2008 (UTC)

• It is about both, since the Province of Quebec adopted Saint Jean Baptiste Day as a "national" holiday for the Quebecois, the same way France adopted Bastille Day and Ireland adopted Saint Patrick's Day as their national holidays. La Saint Jean celebrates the French fact in North America, including Quebec, other Canadian provinces, and the United States. You need only look at this years Fete nationale home page to see this:

Sans aucun doute, le 24 juin 2008 est le moment idéal pour célébrer non seulement les quatre siècles d'existence de la ville de Québec, mais surtout quatre siècles d'une présence francophone en Amérique du Nord.[1]

Contrary, to the politically correct translations put out by the Quebec government, they are not celebrating the presence of anglophones in Quebec, nor are they ever likely to. Nobody particularly wants it to be more than a celebration of francophone culture anyways. --soulscanner (talk) 04:58, 3 July 2008 (UTC)

• I agree with Ramdrake. In Quebec (for some) the day is seen as a national day for the Quebec nation. Outside of Quebec (and presumably the Quebec nation) it retains its former meaning. That duality and tension must be dealt with in the article or the article must be split. --Kevlar (talk • contribs) 00:14, 3 July 2008 (UTC)

• Well, thank you to Ramdrake and Kevlar for actually paying attention to what I wrote. There is a holiday, which is not Quebec's, which is celebrated by Christians in many places. Then there is the National Holiday of Quebec which became such with every bit as much lawfulness as Canada Day on July 1st. The reason it is celebrated on June 24th is because this date, St. John the Baptiste Day, was already the de facto national day for the majority of Quebecers since 1834. The June 24th celebration by out-of-Quebec minorities who share the same national heritage as the majority of Quebecers, mostly in New England, Ontario and the Canadian West, is obviously connected and in fact has the exact same origin in June 1834. That is why the article talks about it to a greater extent than that of the Scandinavians or Baltic peoples. The article has been named Fête nationale du Québec since August 21, 2002. I thought at this time it was pretty clear what the focus of the article was. Now, I thought that Fête nationale was the official name in English too. When, improving the article with footnoting, I became aware of the fact that it was officially called "National Holiday" in English, in all official documents that are not in French only (as most are), I seriously thought nobody would blink. I cannot understand why there are people who think that a Canadian law adopted by the Parliament of Quebec, which has been in force for well over 30 years, is not the most authoritative source to determine what is the official name of the very statutory public day we are talking about. Everyone knows it is popularly called la St-Jean. It's there in the lead paragraph in the French article. -- Mathieugp (talk) 02:09, 3 July 2008 (UTC)

• The translation of the law you cited shows how it is translated by the Government of Quebec. Using this as authoritative would be pushing the POV reflected in Quebec government policies over Wiki naming conventions; these stipulate that the common usage should be used (See Bastille Day for example of English usage prefered over native expressions). Even if official government laws were authoritative, the English translation has no official standing, as English is not an official language in Quebec. The references above show the term as it is recognized and used by English speakers.

The Wikipedia convention is not in opposition to using an official English name for something. You are trying to reduce the convention to "most popular expression" and ignore the rest of the points in the convention. As I demonstrated above, your references are not a proof that one expression is widely used while the other isn't. You can't just overrule an official designation because you do not like it. And why would Bastille Day be a better example to follow over, let's say, Canada Day, which happens to strictly adhere to the naming convention and whose very naming scheme I propose we follow? --Mathieugp (talk) 15:18, 3 July 2008 (UTC)

Had the editor read Wiki naming conventions before unilaterally moving the article, this page would not have been moved in the first place. Nowhere does it say that government legislation is authoritative. It stresses that the most common English usage is preferred in naming, and that other native usages should be mentioned in the lead. --soulscanner (talk) 04:11, 3 July 2008 (UTC)

So, Soulscanner, let me get this right: strictly regarding the National Holiday of the Provice of Quebec, you don't recognize the authority of the Government of Quebec to name the holiday itself? Also, please note that it is plain wrong to declare that the "English translation has no official standing, as English is not an official language in Quebec". This is a total non sequitur. If the Government has take thr trouble to issue a directive saying the name is such in both French and English, then that ruling is the law, at least in the Province of Quebec. Let me be clear on this:

• Outside Quebec and in Canada, St Jean Baptiste Day is the day to honor all those of French-Canadian descent.
• Within Quebec, it is now designated the National Holiday of all Quebecers, irrespective of their origins.

I'd say this probably warrnts separate articles, but I'll be happy to leave the decision to consensus.--Ramdrake (talk) 06:32, 3 July 2008 (UTC)

• I agree with Soulscanner that the common english Name should be used, which in this case is St. Jean Baptiste Day. On the broader question raised by Ramdrake, I think this article should address both the broader holiday and its particular incarnation in Quebec today. The holidays are not sufficiently distinct to merit separate treatment. Gabrielthursday (talk) 06:47, 3 July 2008 (UTC)
• Wikipedia naming policies is governed by the consensus of editors, not the Quebec government. The Quebec government has no control over what English-speakers call Saint Jean Baptiste Day, not even in Quebec. They only have control over how it used within the Quebec government, which is a largely academic fact, as the Quebec government operates in French-only and is run 99% by francophones.

Finally, in Quebec as elsewhere in Canada, Saint Jean Baptiste Day mostly celebrates the French culture and language in North America. The Fete nationale home page says:

Sans aucun doute, le 24 juin 2008 est le moment idéal pour célébrer non seulement les quatre siècles d'existence de la ville de Québec, mais surtout quatre siècles d'une présence francophone en Amérique du Nord.[2]

That covers the gamut of French Canadians and francophones in Quebec AND elsewhere in Canada. Some might parrot the politically correct, official government-speak line that this includes anglophones and natives for appearance sake, but in the end francophones do not, will not, and should not dilute the celebration of their French culture for the sake of political correctness; I won't hold my breath on the SSJB celebrating 250 years of anglophone presence in Quebec in 2010; that would be a pathetic, awkward sight that would embarrass all involved. The usual "Quebec Libre" people will solemnly mark the Conquest like they usually do. --soulscanner (talk) 09:35, 3 July 2008 (UTC)

• If we're gonna be quoting, from the same site:

D'une fête de la grande famille canadienne-française à la Fête du peuple québécois, la Fête nationale du Québec constitue la fête de tous ceux et celles qui composent le Québec d'aujourd'hui.

• I'm sorry for you if you're a Quebecer and feel left out of the holiday, but the intent of the holiday in Quebec is clear: it celebrates the province and all of its people. The rest is your POV. Since the oldest continuously inbabited French settlement in North America was founded just a little more than 400 years ago (Tadoussac, 1599 - with Quebec City being the second oldest and by far better known), it is indeed exact to say there has been four centuries of francophone presence in North America. This does by no means limit the scope of the Fête Nationale in the Province of Québec to just francophones.--Ramdrake (talk) 12:16, 3 July 2008 (UTC)

• Whose intent of the holiday? These things need to be cited in Wikipedia. Also, the stated intent of a few does not neccessarily reflect that of the public or even those making these claims. I'll leave it to wiki editors to decide whether statements about this added scope are politically correct propaganda, or if indeed the celebration of, say, Quebec anglophones, their language, and their 250 year presence in Quebec is indeed comparable to the celebrations of francophones all over North America. --soulscanner (talk) 04:48, 5 July 2008 (UTC)

Survey

I think we need to move this along to a better decision-making structure. There seem to be two open questions.

Firstly, should this article be divided into a Fête nationale du Québec/Quebec's National Holiday article dealing with the statutory holiday in contemporary Quebec and a Saint-Jean-Baptiste Day article dealing with the broader holiday.

Secondly, if this article should be maintained in its current form, what name should it be under?

Have at it everyone! Gabrielthursday (talk) 00:57, 5 July 2008 (UTC)

Split

Ramdrake noted that the day in question now has different meanings and activities in Quebec as opposed to French-Canadian and French-American communities outside Quebec, and asks if this necessitates a division of the article. Kevlar echoes this concern.Gabrielthursday

• Oppose I believe these celebrations to be at most regional variations, and therefore don't merit separate treatment. They come from the same historical source and maintain substantial commonalities. Gabrielthursday (talk) 00:50, 5 July 2008 (UTC)
• Oppose Article shouldn't be split. GoodDay (talk) 01:13, 5 July 2008 (UTC)
• Oppose There should be a section entitled dealing with the "Fete Nationale du Quebec" describing the differences and the debate about how it is different. It's true that the holiday is more politicized in Quebec, but not to the extent of requiring a seperte article. If this section grows so that makes this article too long, we should consider an article for Fete Nationale du Quebec. --soulscanner (talk) 03:52, 5 July 2008 (UTC)
• Oppose The split needed is already there. There is the St. John the Baptiste Day, celebrate by many people where Christianity was important. In the English Wikipedia, the article is at Nativity of St. John the Baptist, while the pre-Christian celebration is at Midsummer Day. -- Mathieugp (talk) 06:04, 5 July 2008 (UTC)

Name

A great number of names have been suggested. There is the current name (though I don't think anyone has actually supported it). There are also proposed "Saint-Jean-Baptiste Day", "Fête nationale du Québec" and "Quebec's National Holiday". Mathieugp has pointed out that "Fête nationale du Québec" is the official title of the holiday in Quebec, and "Quebec's National Holiday" is the English translation of that holiday. Soulscanner has helpfully quoted some naming conventions, which I repeat here:

• " ... article naming should prefer what the greatest number of English speakers would most easily recognize"
• "The names of Wikipedia articles should be optimized for readers over editors, and for a general audience over specialists."
• "Name your pages in English and place the native transliteration on the first line of the article unless the native form is more commonly recognized by readers than the English form."
• "Please, do not write or put an article on a page with an ambiguously named title as though that title had no other meanings. If all possible words have multiple meanings, go with the rule of thumb of naming guidelines and use the more popular term."

Much more debate is to be found above. Gabrielthursday (talk) 00:57, 5 July 2008 (UTC)

Saint-Jean-Baptiste Day

• Support As an aside, I quickly looked at the sources Soulscanner listed above, and found this to be the principal spelling (the dashes). I think this best reflects the naming conventions mentioned above, it being the main name English-speakers use for this holiday. Also, given that this celebration extends beyond Quebec, unless the subject is split, I don't believe the Quebec-centric names are accurate. Gabrielthursday (talk) 00:55, 5 July 2008 (UTC)
• Support, follows the guidelines as English common use.--Boffob (talk) 01:12, 5 July 2008 (UTC)
• Support, use English. GoodDay (talk) 01:14, 5 July 2008 (UTC)
• I Support this name. -Royalguard11(T) 02:18, 5 July 2008 (UTC)
• Support. I don't see a need to repeat the arguments above except to say that this is the way this Quebec holiday is known in English. DoubleBlue (Talk) 03:15, 5 July 2008 (UTC)
• Support. I've already said too much. --soulscanner (talk) 04:27, 5 July 2008 (UTC)
• Oppose Supporting this name violates all main points of the convention, except "prefer English". In 1977, a new statutory legal holiday was created under the legal of "National Holiday". That day was set on June 24, St. John the Baptiste Day since many centuries, and the de facto National Holiday of the Quebec nation since 1834. While Fête national du Québec entered the vocabulary and replaced Fête de la St-Jean in all formal communications, the later is still used very much and mentions of this appears in the lead paragraph in the French language article. Quebec cannot claim St. John the Baptiste Day as its own: it belongs to all peoples who celebrate it. However, Quebec's National Holiday belongs to Quebec, and that is the subject and focus of the article, as it has been since 2002 under the name of Fête nationale du Québec. Having the first line of the article saying St-Jean-Baptiste Day (French: Fête nationale du Québec) clearly reveals the impropriety of such a renaming. -- detached element of comment by Mathieugp (talk) 06:04, 5 July 2008 (UTC)

Quebec's National Holiday

• Comment Should be presented as official Quebec government translation. It appears on some government websites and it is worth mentioning. --soulscanner (talk) 04:27, 5 July 2008 (UTC)
• Support for the numerous reasons I have stated above, and in conformity with the naming scheme of Canada Day, formerly known as Dominion Day. -- Mathieugp (talk) 06:04, 5 July 2008 (UTC)

Fête nationale du Québec

• Comment There should be a section named this to describe this event in Quebec since 1977. Care should be taken to attribute any statements or translation to the Quebec government and political organizations advocating this usage. If this section gets large enough, we should discuss moving this section to a new page. --soulscanner (talk) 04:27, 5 July 2008 (UTC)
• Comment If consensus on the renaming fails, we should revert to this one. -- Mathieugp (talk) 06:04, 5 July 2008 (UTC)

Other

• I thought I'd note this as input from places outside Canada with French Canadian history -- ala Minnesota where all our streets are named after Frenchmen. We call it "Fête de la St. Jean-Baptiste" [3] The article states "This Monday marks the 12th annual celebration of St. Jean-Baptiste, an official holiday in Quebec, John the Baptist being the patron saint of the city (Mendota, Minnesota." .:davumaya:. 07:35, 5 July 2008 (UTC)

Btw the history of the first Fete is here [4] .:davumaya:. 07:37, 5 July 2008 (UTC)

Further Commentary

• I recommend people to read the actual convention. For example, it does not state that "article naming should prefer what the greatest number of English speakers would most easily recognize", it states that "article naming should prefer what the greatest number of English speakers would most easily recognize, with a reasonable minimum of ambiguity, while at the same time making linking to those articles easy and second nature." Also, it is inaccurate to state that the official name is "Fête nationale du Québec" while "Quebec's National Holiday" is the English translation. If it had been true, then I would have left the name of the article as it was for many years. It is the indisputable fact that in English the holiday is formally named, in virtue of the Canadian law creating it, the "National Holiday" of Quebec. The Canadian constitution forces the Parliaments of Ottawa and Quebec to adopt laws in English and French and both are official. -- Mathieugp (talk) 06:04, 5 July 2008 (UTC)

• Clearly, the editor is arguing that official government policies and conventions trump wikipedia naming conventions that assign the title that most English-speakers recognize. This is not a valid arguement. It would push political POV's espoused in government documents. The convention is clear. The Wiki policy is clearly applied at Bastille Day, where the common English name is used to name the article, and the official government name is acknowledged in the lead. this has been pointed out several times, and the editor needs to acknowledge this convention. --soulscanner (talk) 08:44, 5 July 2008 (UTC)

Not at all: for example "Car" is the most used English term, but the article is still under "Automobile".--Ramdrake (talk) 11:46, 5 July 2008 (UTC)