Talk:Fei Yi

the posthumous name

Since the article now claims the meaning of the posthumous name is different than than the common understanding, then where is this particular meaning from?--Skyfiler 01:24, 12 April 2006 (UTC)

For what Chinese posthumous names mean, you have to consult a source that lists them. The one I use (where available -- it's not all-inclusive) is the Yizhoushu (逸周書), written by the Qing Dynasty scholar Zhu Youzeng (朱右曾) (and, based on his foreword, written in the 26th year of Daoguang -- in other words, 1846. The text is available at [1]. Based on ch. 54 (which discusses posthumous names), "Jing" (敬) can mean one of the following:

• 夙夜警戒 -- being alert day and night
• 夙夜恭事 -- being respectful day and night
• 善合法典 -- being able to reconcile laws

However, since the first is, I feel, the primary meaning, I am choosing to go with the first meaning. (The way that the chapter really should be employed, if we were still in the era of giving posthumous names, is the reverse; find a description that fits the person, and then see what character it corresponds to.) This means that the meaning is different than how we would interpret Jing in modern Mandarin, but as I think you can see from the entries, posthumous names don't always mean what we think they mean. For example, Ai (愛), which in modern Mandarin means "love," carries the meaning of 嗇於賜與 -- being miserly with gifts -- which is almost the opposite of the modern meaning. --Nlu (talk) 01:36, 12 April 2006 (UTC)

mmm, seems something need to be added to posthumous name, and the link should be added to this article.--Skyfiler 02:15, 12 April 2006 (UTC)

Incidentally, I dug deeper into the origins of Yizhoushu, and apparently a lot of scholars believe it to be actually of extremely ancient origin (Zhou Dynasty, for example), not written by Zhu Youzeng (therefore, I realized I made that misinterpretation). They call Zhu a commentator, not an author, of the work. I am not sure yet how to edit posthumous name to account for this. If you want to tackle it, be my guest. --Nlu (talk) 05:01, 12 April 2006 (UTC)

Name issue

I'm not very good with pinyin, but in Cantonese, 費 is pronounced "bi" for 費禕 (Fei Yi). I guess it should also be pronounced as "bi" in Mandarin? ----EkmanLi (talk) 23:48, 27 March 2011 (UTC)

The Cantonese pronunciation as Bi has been adopted by HKSAR Education Department, I'm just not 100% sure about the Mandarin counterpart.----EkmanLi (talk) 01:02, 28 March 2011 (UTC)

You said you aren't sure about the Mandarin but you went ahead and moved it anyway.... _dk (talk) 07:51, 29 March 2011 (UTC)

I'm sure now. I asked my frd who's working as an assistant professor in HK, and actually anyone in HK can ask their secondary school teachers about the Mandarin pronunciation. Years ago, I needed to learn the Chu Shi Biao, so I knew 費 sounds "bei" or "bi" (not known about the Mandarin counterpart at that time).----EkmanLi (talk) 08:01, 29 March 2011 (UTC)

Also, do u know of a way (tool) to conveniently change his name in templates and related articles?----EkmanLi (talk) 08:08, 29 March 2011 (UTC)

There should be a tool, but I do it by hand so I don't really know. _dk (talk) 10:27, 29 March 2011 (UTC)

=Actually 費禕's pronunciation is not a controversy (at least not when I was in HK). That's why i didn't put the following ref in the main article earlier (I thought a "name issue" section like the one in Lady Zhen was unnecessary)

《论语·雍也章》:“费音秘，为去声……费，季氏邑” 《辞源》also says the last name sounds "Bi" 费姓音“秘"

I'm too lazy to translate the ref. I knew u guys could understand Chinese. The particular character 費禕 appears in 出師表, which is taught in HK high school, so a 13 year old should know that.----EkmanLi (talk) 01:59, 30 March 2011 (UTC)

The fact that it was pronounced the same as 祕 (which, incidentally, is more commonly pronounced "Mi" these days) is not a good reason to move the article. (Remember that the Analects was written thousands of years ago and, for that matter, hundreds of years before Fei Yi's time.) That would require us to engage in tremendous amounts of original research to speculate what the pronunciation was back then. No one pronounces it "Bi" now as a name; there is no good reason to do so now. --Nlu (talk) 02:02, 30 March 2011 (UTC)

Although let me backtrack a little (and now I think I should, and I will, apologize for the tone). It appears that whether "Bi" or "Fei" should be used depends on the lineage. (The Chinese Wikipedia article (zh:費姓) — which, while not a citable source, is I believe correct on this issue, has more explanation.) However, as there is no reason to conclude that Fei Yi was necessarily originated in the branch whose name is pronounced "Bi," the more common "Fei" should be used. --Nlu (talk) 02:07, 30 March 2011 (UTC)

Also, according to explanation on this site ([2]) (which, I know, isn't a citably reliable source, either) the "Bi" pronunciation is simply no longer used. Again, we use the modern pinyin pronunciation under WP:NC-ZH even though we know (and should acknowledge when appropriately) that the ancient pronunciation is different. --Nlu (talk) 02:15, 30 March 2011 (UTC)

The particular pronunciation for 費禕 was determined by the Education Department (present Education Bureau)of Hong Kong; also, I quoted a modern edition of《辞源》, so the "Bi" pronunciation is modern and is in accord with WP:NC-ZH. Actually, even in present-day, when you look at an ID from a person with the last name 費, you'll still see "Bi" in China; and in HK, it's "Pei" on the ID ( of course "Fei" is the more common one u'll see). ----EkmanLi (talk) 02:30, 30 March 2011 (UTC)

Sry for being not clear why I said the pronunciation was in in accord with WP:NC-ZH. The reason is that established translations (pronunciation)is supported by a political branch.----EkmanLi (talk) 02:39, 30 March 2011 (UTC)

But not any scholarly sources that I can find. I will admit that I only find one source that used both 費禕 and "Fei Yi,"[3] but I find none for "Bi Yi." --Nlu (talk) 02:43, 30 March 2011 (UTC)

And I hate to make this an argument over governmental agencies, but Taiwan's Ministry of Education implicitly disagrees. (Compare [4] with [5].) According to these descriptions, they apparently think "Fei" is now the pronunciation for the family name, while retaining the "Bi" pronunciation for the geographical entity. --Nlu (talk) 02:49, 30 March 2011 (UTC)

I couldn't open the links, but I believe they be something about how to pronounce 費 in general? Let me clarify to the best i can -- I pronounce 費 as "Fei", but I pronounce 費禕 as "Bi Yi"; however, I may also pronounce 費XX as "Fei XX". And I am not doing it randomly. Everytime a slightest controversy on the educational material would be reviewed thoroughly, so the scholars shouldn't make much mistakes for a final conclusion. While they researched on the PARTICULAR subject on the pronunciation of 費禕, they must have debated like we do, and they finally figured it out to be "Bi Yi". In addition to my quotes earlier, a research done by a group of scholars has more weight than a convenient translation by an individual scholar. (As I can't open the links, I may be wrong on saying the Taiwanese were generalizing on the pronunciation. If they were referring specifically to 費禕, please let me know)----EkmanLi (talk) 03:10, 30 March 2011 (UTC)

OK, it looks like the DOE's dictionary uses dynamic URLs that can't necessarily be used again. If you need to verify, the thing to do would to be to enter 費 in the search box and then see, among the phrases that turn up, then, the first meaning for 費 (which indicated that, as a family name, it is pronounced "Fei") and the second meaning for 費 (which indicated that, as a place name, it is pronounced "Bi"). --Nlu (talk) 10:05, 31 March 2011 (UTC)

I searched it myself. Anyways, that is not very relevant in this topic. Let me point this out again, the SPECIFIC pronunciation of 費禕 (as a WHOLE) is different to its generalized counterpart. The online dictionary (or even a modern dictionary) is not invented to answer how to pronounce 費禕, BUT a group of scholars assembled by the Education Department of HK was asked to do just that. We can't exclude the possibility of something just because we don't know that exist (and when we do know it exists, we are educated, and should be delighted).----EkmanLi (talk) 11:58, 1 April 2011 (UTC)

Rafe de Crespigny spells this name "Fei Yi" in his summary history of the Three Kingdoms [6] which suggest to me that this is the standard way to render it in the Latin alphabet Fornadan (t) 16:58, 30 March 2011 (UTC)

Actually most, if not all, western translation of that word would be "Fei". That's why I gave out academic sources from both ancient and modern origins, which point out its accurate pronunciation.----EkmanLi (talk) 18:43, 30 March 2011 (UTC)

On second thought, in light of the difference between academic rules and wiki rules, I believe "Fei" can be used (as long as any published work uses it), but should not be used (unless we dictate a convenient western translation precedes the conclusion from a bunch of scholars who researched on the issue). Following to a somehow contradicting guideline: to pursue the most accurate; I have to remind that many translations are still not prefect. For example, Rafe, a guy who I have considerable respect to, would translate the number "several tens of thousands" into "10,000", and name "Yan Baihu" into "White Tiger Yan" (I personally agree to translation on Yan). Not to mention other lesser-known scholars/translator in the field.----EkmanLi (talk) 18:48, 30 March 2011 (UTC)

My 中華新字典 from 中華書局 tells me there are two Cantonese pronunciations for 費, one read the same as 廢 and the other the same as 臂. However, both lists Fèi as the Mandarin pronunciation. And the wiki policy clearly states: "The threshold for inclusion in Wikipedia is verifiability, not truth," so we may have to follow the academics even though we might think they have erred. _dk (talk) 23:58, 30 March 2011 (UTC)

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