Talk:First Japanese Embassy to Europe (1862)

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The title of this article is factually incorrect

The first Japanese embassy to Europe is the so called Tenshō embassy which occurred in 1583-1586 and visited Portugal, Spain and Italy (including the Pope). The title is not only wrong, it is wrong by 279 years and hence severely misleading. I'd appreciate the input from other editors and reviewers. -Kferreir (talk) 10:14, 26 June 2020 (UTC)[reply]

You're correct, in Japanese it is called "文久遣欧使節" (Bunkyū ken'ōshisetsu) which means Bunkyū Envoy to Europe. The Bunkyu era was from March 1861 through March 1864. So a better name would be Bunkyu Embassy to Europe. -Artanisen (talk) 10:13, 9 May 2022 (UTC)[reply]

Requested move 9 May 2022

The following is a closed discussion of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on the talk page. Editors desiring to contest the closing decision should consider a move review after discussing it on the closer's talk page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

The result of the move request was: Not Moved - The article explains the “factual” inconsistency adequately Mike Cline (talk) 15:46, 17 June 2022 (UTC)[reply]

First Japanese Embassy to Europe (1862) → Bunkyu Embassy to Europe (1862) – As per the talk page, the title is factually incorrect. The first Japanese embassy to Europe was the Tenshō embassy in 1582. In Japanese, the page is called Bunkyū Envoy to Europe. Artanisen (talk) 10:26, 9 May 2022 (UTC) — Relisting. —CX Zoom[he/him] ^{(let's talk • {C•X})} 06:37, 17 May 2022 (UTC) — Relisting. — Ceso femmuin mbolgaig mbung, mellohi! (投稿) 00:47, 6 June 2022 (UTC)[reply]

Oppose. First, "Bunkyu Embassy to Europe" yields no Google hits, so the proposed title is not in accordance with WP:NATDAB. (If we used it, we would presumably use Bunkyū and not append the year. However, even "Bunkyū Embassy" alone is basically unused in English.) This is often called the "First Japanese Embassy to Europe" in reliable secondary sources in English, and is sometimes called "the first" in Japanese as well. Ignoring the Tenshō Embassy might have had something to do with the fact that the Tenshō Embassy was not really sent "by Japan" or just that there is a distinction being made related to the modern nation-state, but at any rate I do not see a reason to make a change here. Dekimasuよ! 05:47, 16 May 2022 (UTC)[reply]
The present "(1862)" disambiguator can be understood as a term clearly distinguishing this from any other topics that might be given the same name. Dekimasuよ! 06:25, 16 May 2022 (UTC)[reply]

It yields few results in English, because this name has been wrongly used for decades or well over a century. "First Japanese Embassy to Europe" is factually incorrect and misleading. Like I said in Japanese it is called 文久遣欧使節 (Bunkyū ken'ōshisetsu" = Bunkyū Envoy to Europe). This is the correct name. The word Bunkyū (文久) was a Japanese era name after Man'en and before Genji. This period spanned the years from March 1861 through March 1864. I did not suggest to not append the year that your own conjecture. The new page name would include the words "Japanese Embassy to Europe (1862)" which clarifies the date and that it was a Japanese embassy. The word Bunkyū is added in accordance with the Japanese page name which is more correct than "first". You argue that the Tenshō Embassy was not really sent by Japan, but it was a Japanese embassy with Japanese people. The Tokugawa shogunate did not represent Emperor Meiji who would soon gain power with the Meiji Restoration in 1868. Hasekura Tsunenaga headed the Keichō Embassy (慶長使節) from 1613 till 1620. If you want to nitpick about an accurate name then Tokugawa Embassy to Europe (1862) would be more accurate. The 1862 Embassy was the third Japanese Embassy to Europe. This is absolutely not "the first" Japanese embassy. -Artanisen (talk) 17:15, 21 May 2022 (UTC)[reply]

We almost always follow sources, and for naming sources we should first and foremost rely upon sources in English, according to the article titling policy. We follow established English-language usage and do not create original titles that are unused in English. For what it's worth, the Japanese Wikipedia also lists 第1回遣欧使節 (i.e. this title) as one of its names. You define "Bunkyū" correctly, and of course I know what it means, but it is not possible to expect even well-read English-language readers to know the Japanese nengō prior to Meiji. (You may not even have much success with natives of Japan.) At any rate, it is not really the most relevant issue for naming purposes whether this is "really" the first or not; I just suggested a possible reason for the standard convention. This is what the article's subject is called in reliable sources in English.

You also wrote, "I did not suggest to not append the year that your own conjecture. The new page name would include the words "Japanese Embassy to Europe (1862)" which clarifies the date and that it was a Japanese embassy." This does not seem to be internally consistent, but at any rate, 1862 is included in both the current title and the proposed title, and "Japanese" is not in the proposed title (the template and request do not match). In the current title, the year serves the purpose of identifying which "first embassy" is being discussed, and therefore I do not find the current title misleading. Dekimasuよ! 08:10, 24 May 2022 (UTC)[reply]

Although it remains tangential to the question of what to title this article in English, 第1回遣欧使節 is used by Japan's Ministry of Finance and its French embassy, as well as a variety of other published sources in Japanese, e.g. this, just published in 2019. Dekimasuよ! 08:18, 24 May 2022 (UTC)[reply]

Oppose per Dekimasu. If every English-language source calls this the "First Japanese Embassy to Europe" or the like, so be it. This is a proper name; not only do we not use a "correct" name if no English speaker calls it that, but in addition proper names do not have to be factually correct, e.g. the Hundred Years' War. — Ceso femmuin mbolgaig mbung, mellohi! (投稿) 00:49, 6 June 2022 (UTC)[reply]
Oppose per how it is commonly referred. The proposed name will only make it difficult for readers. 99.165.88.9 (talk) 17:45, 15 June 2022 (UTC)[reply]

The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.