Talk:Flag of South Africa (1928–1994)

Flag of South Africa (1928–1994) has been listed as one of the History good articles under the good article criteria. If you can improve it further, please do so. If it no longer meets these criteria, you can reassess it.
Review: May 10, 2016. (Reviewed version).

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This article is written in South African English, which has its own spelling conventions (colour, realise, analyse) and some terms that are used in it may be different or absent from other varieties of English. According to the relevant style guide, this should not be changed without broad consensus.

This article was nominated for deletion on 9 March 2016. The result of the discussion was keep.

A fact from Flag of South Africa (1928–1994) appeared on Wikipedia's Main Page in the Did you know column on 20 April 2016 (check views). The text of the entry was as follows:

Did you know... that the former flag of South Africa (pictured) was created as a compromise but later came to be viewed as a symbol of apartheid?

A record of the entry may be seen at Wikipedia:Recent additions/2016/April. The nomination discussion and review may be seen at Template:Did you know nominations/Flag of South Africa (1928–1994).

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Heraldry and vexillology

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GA Review

This review is transcluded from Talk:Flag of South Africa (1928–1994)/GA1. The edit link for this section can be used to add comments to the review.

Reviewer: QatarStarsLeague (talk · contribs) 19:31, 9 May 2016 (UTC)[reply]

Review coming soon. QatarStarsLeague (talk) 19:31, 9 May 2016 (UTC)[reply]

First off, reference 9 seems to be a redlink.
"... it contained the flag of the United Kingdom, the flag of the Orange Free State and the Transvaal Vierkleur…" The format goes English, English, Afrikaans. Not necessary to change but it seems incongruous.
- changed
"...was adopted in 1928 by an act of Parliament…" Please link to the appropriate parliament.
- This is mentioned later on though I thought stating the Afrikaaner majority made it clear, but I have linked it.
It seems you are using British or South African English in standard. Please place the banner on the talk page that signifies this.
- Being British, I used British English when I wrote the article and have added that template.
The info box lists the flag's nickname as its "Name". Is that proper?
- According to precedence on pages like Flag of the United Kingdom and Flag of the United States, it is.
"...centre with the flags of the Orange Free State and the South African Republic." In the intro you call it Transvaal, here you use the English term. Either is fine, please be consistent.
"Movements like the Black Sash[8] and Umkhonto we Sizwe…" You have an in-line citation for the first, perhaps the second as well?
"...ANC's Nomfunelo Mabedla MP…" Nofunelo Mabedla, a minister of parliament from…
Not required, but it would provide some reference to display South Africa's current flag here somewhere.

All else seems fine. Great job on this interesting article. I glanced at the deletion debate, it seemed resoundingly in favor of keeping the article, a position I certainly take myself. QatarStarsLeague (talk) 04:34, 10 May 2016 (UTC)[reply]

- @QatarStarsLeague: I have fixed the issues you raised, and responded to those that I haven't. With regard to the deletion discussion, I do believe that if I'd called it Oranje, Blanje, Blou or Flag of the Union of South Africa then there wouldn't have been a problem but I felt the current title is more appropriate and accurate. The C of E God Save the Queen! (talk) 08:49, 10 May 2016 (UTC)[reply]
  - Yes, I agree there. Now that everything has been cleared away, this article passes. Nice work on an interesting topic. QatarStarsLeague (talk) 14:49, 10 May 2016 (UTC)[reply]

Reducing the prominence of the Afrikaans (Dutch?) nickname of the flag

The article heavily used the name Oranje Blanje Blou as a metonym for this flag. However I cannot find any convincing evidence that it was widely used in that way by English speakers. It certainly is an extremely uncommon usage in contemporary Sputh Africa, where it is referred to as "the old South African flag". Furthermore, as a South African, I fail to recall knowing the term until reading this article, and Google does not provide much evidence of contemporary usage either in its primary search results (including in Afrikaans). Therefore I've reduced the prominence of the Afrikaans nickname (in fact "blanje" sounds more Dutch than Afrikaans), as its use in this article appears to constitute a neologism, in particular falling afoul of the guideline that "Care should be taken when translating text into English that a term common in the host language does not create an uncommon neologism in English." Park3r (talk) 06:09, 6 August 2017 (UTC)[reply]

I've seen a few South Africans refer to the flag as simply "The Old Flag", though this may be too generic a nickname for inclusion in the article. – Illegitimate Barrister (talk • contribs), 04:04, 20 May 2018 (UTC)[reply]

Vertical display

Was there a proper way to display this flag vertically? – Illegitimate Barrister (talk • contribs), 20:20, 14 April 2018 (UTC)[reply]

I'd assume it would have been the side with the Union Jack closest to the hoist. This seems to unofficially support that theory @Illegitimate Barrister:. The C of E God Save the Queen! (talk) 07:24, 20 May 2018 (UTC)[reply]

Alright, then. But, what about the colors? Should it be orange first or blue first? – Illegitimate Barrister (talk • contribs), 06:11, 21 May 2018 (UTC)[reply]

Colors

What are the exact colors used on the flag, or were they never specified? – Illegitimate Barrister (talk • contribs), 13:02, 8 May 2018 (UTC)[reply]

They are specified, but the exact colors looks mysterious. According to this document the colors are BCC 210 (red), BCC 24 (green), BCC 57 (orange), BCC 218 (solway blue) and BCC 150 (Union Jack Blue). They looks like a British standard by British Colour Council, but I don't know how to get that. The CMYK values are problematic, one color is an error, others are sightly bright. --Great Brightstar (talk) 08:10, 24 September 2019 (UTC)[reply]

Revert changes to colour

I do not think the current purple(!?) colours should be used compared to the previous dark blue version. The CMYK values given are even incorrect as the values for "solway blue" produces a bright green instead of a blue! Further, they look very different to how the flag is depicted anywhere else... Including the example image given above the CMYK values by the south african vexillogical institute itself!! That example, by the way, also closely matches the previous and common depicition.
http://www.savaflags.org.za/spec/South%20Africa%20-%20National%201928-1994%20-%20sheet%201.pdf
I thnk the dark blue, "normal" colours should be restored instead of this unusual purple. If the recommended (not official) CMYK values were to be followed, it should also be green not blue, according to the current source.

--193.11.161.211 (talk) 09:49, 28 October 2018 (UTC)[reply]

Symbolism

Would it not make sense to place the Flag of South Africa (1928–1994) in Category:White nationalist symbols and/or Category:Fascist symbols? There is a photograph of Dylann Roof, the neo-Nazi, white supremacist terrorist who carried out the Charleston church shooting, wearing a trench coat with the Flag of South Africa (1928–1994) and the Flag of Rhodesia (1968–1979), Rhodesia being another deeply racist, white supremacist and apartheid state, stitched onto it. Here is another photograph of the flag, this was taken on 9 April 2010 at the funeral of Eugène Terre'Blanche, the founder and leader of the neo-Nazi, white supremacist political party and terrorist organisation, the Afrikaner Weerstandsbeweging.
https://www.shutterstock.com/editorial/image-editorial/south-africa-terreblanche-funeral-apr-2010-7715855d

https://cdn.vox-cdn.com/thumbor/-qwZjqHHnmxVMknWeJJuOm5V9tE=/414x271:2047x1496/920x613/filters:focal(414x271:2047x1496):format(webp)/cdn.vox-cdn.com/uploads/chorus_image/image/46566400/11265297_111398835859264_82145487461570196_o.0.0.jpg
(Peadar Ó Croidheáin) • (talk) • (contribs), 20:26, 16 January 2019 (UTC)[reply]

It's one of those Marmite flags, some love it and some hate it. I think to avoid POV on this we should not say it is one thing or another. The C of E God Save the Queen! (talk) 21:14, 16 January 2019 (UTC)[reply]

It's not really one of those Marmite flags though, is it? It's not really some love it and some hate it. It's more some love and most hate it. I would wager to say that the overwhelming majority of South Africans (keep in mind, South Africa is 80.2% Black, 8.8% "Coloured" which I'll assume is mixed race, 8.4% white and 2.5% Asian) hate the flag of South Africa (1928–1994) and that it's only a minority (almost exclusively white) of South Africans who love it. Do you really think that the South Africans that like, love or don't mind the flag of South Africa (1928–1994) and who aren't raging neo-Nazis, white supremacists and white nationalists are gonna be that open about it? Also consider this, the only time we ever see the flag of South Africa (1928–1994) being flown outside of South Africa is at neo-Nazi, white supremacist and white nationalist rallies.(Peadar Ó Croidheáin) • (talk) • (contribs), 14:06, 31 January 2019 (UTC)[reply]

It's like the Confederate flag. It has multiple meanings. For some, it is a symbol of heritage and Afrikaaner history and for others it symbolises apartheid. As such I don't think it is fair to label it either way and I tried to ensure this when I wrote the article. The C of E God Save the Queen! (talk) 20:34, 31 January 2019 (UTC)[reply]

I'd have no problem with the above info being added to the article so long as they are backed up by reliable secondhand sources. – Illegitimate Barrister (talk • contribs), 02:19, 25 May 2019 (UTC)[reply]

There's nothing hateful about the flag. The fact that a court has unilaterally decided that it's "hate" just shows how much South Africa has declined in the past 25 years. 2601:8C:4581:1150:EDF6:E991:B5A5:830 (talk) 02:49, 7 December 2019 (UTC)[reply]

Edgy. – Illegitimate Barrister (talk • contribs), 13:01, 22 December 2019 (UTC)[reply]

ADL?

@The C of E:, this flag is labeled as a general hate symbol by the Anti-Defamation League, should this be mentioned on this article?

https://www.adl.org/education/references/hate-symbols/south-african-flag-apartheid-era

ColorfulSmoke (talk) 20:50, 22 April 2021 (UTC)[reply]

I think that an American company's view on a South African flag would be rather WP:UNDUE. The C of E God Save the Queen! (talk) 21:05, 22 April 2021 (UTC)[reply]

@The C of E: Not a company but an NGO - and one of the most well known anti-racism organizations. Given that the flag has emerged as one of many symbols of white supremacy outside of South Africa - it was for example worn by the perpetrator of the Charleston Church shooting in the US - I don't think this would be an example of WP:UNDUE provided it is not too large a section compared to the rest of the content. Francoisdjvr (talk) 09:01, 23 April 2021 (UTC)[reply]

The thing is, we have already mentioned the association with that appalling Roof chap in the article (and rightfully so, it does need to be mentioned). I don't think we need to bludgeon how it is viewed in the US into this article. To be honest, being British, I've never heard of this particular organisation outside of Wikipedia. The C of E God Save the Queen! (talk) 09:08, 23 April 2021 (UTC)[reply]

@The C of E: also why isn't the Rhodesian flag also listed as a hate symbol by ADL? the flag of Rhodesia is treated similar to the flag of South Africa (1928–1994) since both flags were from white-ruled governments in Southern Africa. ColorfulSmoke (talk) 04:13, 1 May 2021 (UTC)[reply]

No idea, you'll have to ask them. The C of E God Save the Queen! (talk) 05:52, 1 May 2021 (UTC)[reply]

The flag's affiliation to racism

We already know that Apartheid South Africa failed because of its affiliation to racism. — Preceding unsigned comment added by TakeHaru03 (talk • contribs) 05:17, 9 March 2022 (UTC)[reply]

@The C of E: I wanted to let you know i added "South Africa banned the apartheid-era flag" on this article "2019 in South Africa" because i think this is a notable event in 2019 in South Africa. ColorfulSmoke (talk) 16:48, 1 July 2023 (UTC)[reply]

@ColorfulSmoke: No need to let me know about it, its a fact that demonstrably happened and no harm in repeating it in another article I'd say. The C of E God Save the King! (talk) 16:59, 1 July 2023 (UTC)[reply]

@The C of E: I have an honest question, what's the punishment of displaying the 1928-1994 flag in South Africa? ColorfulSmoke (talk) 17:57, 1 July 2023 (UTC)[reply]

@ColorfulSmoke: I'm not a South African lawyer so I'm afraid I wouldn't know that. All I could find for punishments is a reference to the 2019 judgement that says "fines or terms of community service". The C of E God Save the King! (talk) 18:01, 1 July 2023 (UTC)[reply]

@The C of E: It's most likely that... if you're in South Africa and you publicly display its former national flag from 1928-1994, South African authorities are probably going to give you a fine and if you don't pay, they can throw you in jail for hate speech and disturbing the peace. ColorfulSmoke (talk) 19:02, 3 July 2023 (UTC)[reply]

@The C of E: the flag of South Africa from 1928–1994 is clearly a potential hate symbol because it wasn't made during apartheid, but it was used during apartheid which is obviously why some white supremacists use this old South African flag. ColorfulSmoke (talk) 07:40, 11 October 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Additional proposals

Some additional flag proposals from this period can be found here. HapHaxion _{(talk / contribs)} 15:29, 31 October 2022 (UTC)[reply]

@HapHaxion Some proposals are shown at List of South African flags#Proposed flags. These would be terrific additions there, but I lack the ability to make graphics out of them. Cheers for raising this. thorpewilliam (talk) 07:31, 1 November 2022 (UTC)[reply]

I have raised the request at the Illustration Workshop. Thank you @HapHaxion: and I agree @Thorpewilliam:. The C of E God Save the King! (talk) 08:00, 1 November 2022 (UTC)[reply]

@The C of E Good call. Didn't know there was one! thorpewilliam (talk) 09:29, 1 November 2022 (UTC)[reply]

Just been done @HapHaxion: and @Thorpewilliam:. I'll leave it to you what you wish to include. The C of E God Save the King! (talk) 22:23, 12 November 2022 (UTC)[reply]

Added to List of South African flags#Proposed flags thorpewilliam (talk) 02:03, 13 November 2022 (UTC)[reply]

Namibia?

@The C of E: Is the apartheid South African flag banned in Namibia? ColorfulSmoke (talk) 01:10, 14 November 2023 (UTC)[reply]

@ColorfulSmoke: I don't know but I assume in the absence of any court ruling or law passed, it probably isn't. The C of E God Save the King! (talk) 07:19, 14 November 2023 (UTC)[reply]